Why don't chip manufacturers provide a warranty?

[DionM]

I've been researching chips lately and I have a question - why do the chip makers not provide a warranty to cover any damage the chip may cause?

Warranties typically only cover the actual "chip" itself, but there appears to be no warranty cover for damage the chip may cause?

There appears to be all number of "tricks" to lay the onus of a potentially chip related claim back on the vehicle manufacturer by "hiding" the presence of a chip tune and making it "undetectable".

[DNA Tuning]

Dion, I totally understand where you're coming from.

The difficulty is, however, that there needs to be a certain level of protection for both the consumer and the tuner in this case.

Firstly, we tuners do not (and I hope I speak collectively here) sell programmes that have never been tested before - occassionally, there are circumstances where a tune is being brought over to the local market; however these tunes have already been developed in say the UK, etc. so the "testing" here is just to verify the expected operation. As such, your car is not a guinea pig - if something in your car does go wrong when there are dozens of other cars running the same tune without problems... should the tuner be to blame?

Unfortunately with a modern car's powertrain, there are infinite combinations of things that can potentially cause damage to the engine. There are probably twice as many as I'm about to list, but here goes:

* Lubrication problems
* Cooling problems
* Bad fuel
* Camshaft timing off
* Faulty knock sensors
* Failing fuel pump
* Faulty MAF/MAP
* Faulty boost solenoid
* Vacuum/boost line leaks/disconnects, etc.
* Boost leak
* Wastegate leak
* Faulty wastegate
* Collapsed catalytic converter
* Faulty O2 sensors
+ MANY more

All tunes, including the stock program, rely on all the above + many other unmentioned components in order to work properly; now, it would be *fairly* safe for tuners to offer say, a 1 year warranty on cars <2 years old simply because items in the above list, as well as many other unlisted items, tend to not start failing until after a few years. I have seen some companies in the past offer warranty with these kind of conditions (ie. Wetterauer), but have since stopped offering this.

I hope this answers your questions; for what it's worth, with a 2.0TFSI you shouldn't need to worry no matter which tuner you go with - the engine is very common and there are hundreds if not thousands of upgraded 2.0TFSI's in this country already so you can rest assured the only risks you may be taking is if there are existing issues with the car, which, again, the tuner should not have to cover.

It is true that under greater loads; the potential for damage is greater - this cannot be denied. However, if everything in your engine system is in a healthy state, the risk itself is very minimal. I do explain to all my customers that yes, with a chip, the turbo is unlikely to last as long as it would have if you left the car untuned - just like running an engine at high rpm more often, spinning the turbo faster is also sure to reduce the service life - but for most people, the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

[DionM]

Appreciate the response John.

I understand it is a difficult position, butg I gues I always percive that the chip manufacturers do not take 'responsibility' for their services. If I bought new alloys that cracked and damaged the suspension or brakes on my vehicle, I would consider that such consequential damage should be covered.

I also understand that engines and drivetrains are complex beasts, but surely there could be some middle ground?

[DNA Tuning]

Unfortunately, to make $200 on a tune and then provide warranty on say a transmission that costs $8k to replace would mean there'd be no tuners in the business. In fact, for many tuners, myself included, we are not the "tuners". We are distributors of a tuning product; we run our own business and are not financially backed by the parent tuning company, etc. What this means is, we're not in a financial position to even come to a "middle ground" so to speak.

It really is a difficult matter; and I appreciate the question being asked. All I can really advise is that if you're unwilling to accept the lack of drivetrain/powertrain warranty provided by the tuners, to simply not go for the upgrade. I know this sounds like an easy way out for tuners, but believe me, it isn't!

Again, the risk is negligible if your car is in good working order - I personally reject vehicles that have error codes or signs of not running well, as tuning the car can only exacerbate the symptoms of any existing issues. On the other hand, if a car is running perfectly fine, I have complete confidence in upgrading the car.

[Tim]

How could you have middle ground when it would be so hard to prove either way?
The only way I see a warranty being a viable option would be to offer it as an insurance product which covers the entire drivetrain no questions asked.. Similar to what you would normally get if you purchased a second hand car from a dealer if the manufacturers warranty had expired already. Ultimately that would increase the price of the tunes though.

[gareth_oau]

Dion, you mentioned if you bought a wheel which failed, you would expect the wheel manufacturer to cover consequential damages.

I have a very strong suspicion that the wheel manufacturer would give you a new wheel and thats it.

its very rare for consequential damages to be covered - it would open up a legal minefield. if the wheel failed, and you speared into a petrol station, causing an explosion - where would this consequence end?

[masev]

Hey Simon

Nice to see you've made your way onto the forums!

Me and my R are looking forward to the adrenalin shot next week

[Preen59]

The simple answer is that if you lean on something harder, it has more chance of failure and the life span of it will be reduced. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Stick with a reputable company (DNA, APR, GIAC, Custom Code for example) and i'd reckon you'd be pretty safe.

Everything has a potential for failure, and when it comes to VWs, your aftermarket ECU flash is the least of your warranty issues in my opinion...

[h100vw]

I'll agree with John too. There's plenty of testing done on the tunes before they get released and lots and lots of cars around the world running in a tuned state, being maintained to the manufacturers schedule.

I too would scan for faults before flashing and insist on a clean bill of health before carrying out the flash.

That's not to say that coilpacks on a BAM TT or S3 won't quit on the test drive but I would have told the customer not to be surprised if they do.

You could point the finger at a flash for a misfire but a change of spark plugs usually fixes that. So was the flash faulty? No, it just highlighted a component that wasn't up to scratch.

I carry a set of plugs (for 1.8Ts) and have coilpacks to hand as well, just because they always fail when you can't get replacements quickly. I sell them at replacement cost and fit them free.

I know of one workshop that got out of the flashing game, due to overly high expectations from customers. He said they were looking at bumper to bumper warranty after a flash and expected free fixes for all sorts of unrelated matters. Diverter valves, MAFs etc. Stuff that fails anyway.

In short if you are concerned that something may go wrong, keep driving your standard car.

Gavin

[Jmac]

As above, as a tuner always mention that a flash will be very good at showing up any weak spots like air mass meters, coil packs etc, im with Gav as ive witnessed the BAM blow all 4 one after another!!!! i remember back in the UK cars being tuned and not making it home, by the way ive been here for 12 yrs!!. Superchips offer warranty, if you want to peruse look up www.superchips.com.au or www.mybluefin.co.uk. I have to say though i have refused to tune a couple of cars that have known issues until rectified, im sure if the owners will chime in. Personally i like to roadtest the vehicle and scan it before i touch ot, i do the same when i service a vehicle , even if i know it well, costs nothing but gives you a snap shot of the vehicle before hand
Jmac