New Golf Rs and GTIs will have updated software that can disable ESP completely

[Corey_R]

Considering ESP is mandatory in some states already, I'm not sure this will happen in Australia

[elephino]

Considering ESP is mandatory in some states already, I'm not sure this will happen in Australia

ESP is mandatory to be installed, not mandatory to be on (but I think must be set to on when the car is turned on).

[Corey_R]

Does anyone have a link to the actual requirements document for ESP?
Is it only mandatory in VIC at this stage, or have other states also followed?


Personally I don't believe that we should be able to turn off ESP on the roads. I like the idea that Nissan have with the GTR, where it only allows you to disable it on race tracks. However, given their poor implementation of it (and the fact that it doesn't recognise any of the racetracks here), I'd be happy if it were a case of "allows you to disable it when you're not on a road".

This would of course mean that you had to buy the Sat-Nav option... but tough

[dave_r]

Blah to the mandatory ESP stuff, if its on by default that should be good enough as most won't turn it off anyway. 50% of cars on the road probably don't have decent brakes or tyres so what does it matter if a few of us can turn TC/ESP fully off?

Bring on the option to fully disable it!

[AdamD]

Personally I don't believe that we should be able to turn off ESP on the roads. I like the idea that Nissan have with the GTR, where it only allows you to disable it on race tracks. However, given their poor implementation of it (and the fact that it doesn't recognise any of the racetracks here), I'd be happy if it were a case of "allows you to disable it when you're not on a road".

I can't comment on the MY08, but MY11 GTRs can have the ESP fully disabled on the road (according to a recent review I read). What can't be disabled except when on a racetrack is the speed governor.

There are numerous cars being delivered to Australia right now that allow the ESP to be fully disabled with driver intervention. BMW, Mercedes, you name it. Given that fact, I can't see how it's possible that any state has enacted laws to prevent ESP from being disabled, irrespective of whether it's a mandatory fitment to new cars or not.

Personally, I have no issue with the ESP being fixed, but then I don't plan to track my car. I do believe that it should be within the owner's right to disable the feature if he/she so chooses. An individual is licensed to operate a vehicle under all conditions, whether it be fitted with ESP or not. Prudence dictates you drive to the conditions and use all resouces at your disposal to drive as safely as possible, but IMHO, the final decision on which resources are a benefit versus a hindrance should be left to the driver.

[Corey_R]

You haven't been able to completely disable ESP on most Mercs for years... they were one of the pioneers of this. They started allowing it on various AMG models again in the last few years, but I'm not sure about standard models, cause I don't care enough.

I'm not personally of the belief that owners have the right to do whatever they like. Just how we can't disable ABS
(well, you probably can by popping some fuze or something).

[AdamD]

You haven't been able to completely disable ESP on most Mercs for years... they were one of the pioneers of this. They started allowing it on various AMG models again in the last few years, but I'm not sure about standard models, cause I don't care enough.

Yep, sorry, I was referring to the AMG models - the only Mercedes models I'd even vaguely contemplate buying.

ABS is another of those things that may hinder a driver in certain circumstances. I think the main reasons ABS can't be switched anymore are a) the systems have improved to the point where they function reasonably well under all conditions - even soft gravel, and b) even on a track, an ABS-equipped car should actually improve even a great driver's times. But in the early days of the tech, it was switchable for many cars - while there was still a perceived need to do so.

Chances are that as ESP systems improve over the next few years and are implemented so as to not hinder a performance driver's track times (Ferrari 458 Italia for example), the ability to disable ESP will disappear entirely. But most ESP systems aren't there yet.

[Ideo]

Does anyone have a link to the actual requirements document for ESP?
Is it only mandatory in VIC at this stage, or have other states also followed?


Personally I don't believe that we should be able to turn off ESP on the roads. I like the idea that Nissan have with the GTR, where it only allows you to disable it on race tracks. However, given their poor implementation of it (and the fact that it doesn't recognise any of the racetracks here), I'd be happy if it were a case of "allows you to disable it when you're not on a road".

This would of course mean that you had to buy the Sat-Nav option... but tough

I agree.

I also think we should go further. There should be a government mandated person, assigned to every individual, who monitors their every move, can hold their hand when they cross the road, monitor how much they have to drink, take their foot off the accelerator by force whenever they accelerate too quickly, nag them to tuck in their shirt, make sure they have cleaned their teeth and tuck them into bed every night at 8.30pm so they get enough sleep.

Or, in a radical move, their could be a novel concept where individuals take responsiblity for their own actions.

[Corey_R]

I agree.

I also think we should go further. There should be a government mandated person, assigned to every individual, who monitors their every move, can hold their hand when they cross the road, monitor how much they have to drink, take their foot off the accelerator by force whenever they accelerate too quickly, nag them to tuck in their shirt, make sure they have cleaned their teeth and tuck them into bed every night at 8.30pm so they get enough sleep.

Or, in a radical move, their could be a novel concept where individuals take responsiblity for their own actions.

Well, people can't really take responsibility when they're already dead. And unfortunately they can't help or take responsibility for the poor the people they've run into and either killed or permanently disabled.

Especially with the Golf R, if you are actually driving so "hard" that you could even tell whether the ESP cuts in or not when you've pressed the "Off" button, then I'm sorry, but you're already being an idiot and not being responsible, pure and simple.

This of course is just my opinion, but I know it's also an opinion shared by many advanced driving instructors and even race car drivers.
Again - I'm only talking about being able to fully disable the ESP on the road. I fully support being able to fully disable ESP for the track.

Yep, sorry, I was referring to the AMG models - the only Mercedes models I'd even vaguely contemplate buying.

ABS is another of those things that may hinder a driver in certain circumstances. I think the main reasons ABS can't be switched anymore are a) the systems have improved to the point where they function reasonably well under all conditions - even soft gravel, and b) even on a track, an ABS-equipped car should actually improve even a great driver's times. But in the early days of the tech, it was switchable for many cars - while there was still a perceived need to do so.

Chances are that as ESP systems improve over the next few years and are implemented so as to not hinder a performance driver's track times (Ferrari 458 Italia for example), the ability to disable ESP will disappear entirely. But most ESP systems aren't there yet.

Hehe - yeah, AMG
But good points you make in relation to ABS vs ESP. You're right though, ESP will continue to improve. The benefit of Bosch etc still being involved with companies like Ferrari, is hopefully those improvements will also find their way into other brands... such as VWs

[AdamD]

Well, people can't really take responsibility when they're already dead. And unfortunately they can't help or take responsibility for the poor the people they've run into and either killed or permanently disabled.

Especially with the Golf R, if you are actually driving so "hard" that you could even tell whether the ESP cuts in or not when you've pressed the "Off" button, then I'm sorry, but you're already being an idiot and not being responsible, pure and simple.

This of course is just my opinion, but I know it's also an opinion shared by many advanced driving instructors and even race car drivers.
Again - I'm only talking about being able to fully disable the ESP on the road. I fully support being able to fully disable ESP for the track.

I agree entirely that there should never be a need to disable ESP on the road, nor an excuse. But for performance driving under controlled conditions, it should be at the driver's discretion. The technology isn't there for the car to make that decision for the driver. So I think the driver should be able to make that decision. After all, they're licensed to.