AFI 24v VR6 Intake Manifold

Anybody seen these?
AFI VR6 24V INTAKE MANIFOLD Tuner Headquarters

Certainly look like sturdy and quality-built pieces of "art" but at $1300 USD you'd want to make sure there were decent gains.

Its easy to find proof that the 12v VR6 heads had terrible flow design (and then they talk of increasing valve size and cam lift duration) but there isn't a lot of info on the 24v.

As far as I can determine the 24v head was designed by Cosworth. I am taking that to mean that they redesigned the 12v head and that the two heads are relatively similar aside from the obvious number of valves.

There is so much power you can make without increasing the compression ratio, you can still do a lot of breathing mods but you can only benefit from it to a certain point. People are just a bit bat crazy over bolt on VR mods tbh...

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Originally Posted by Golf Houso

There is so much power you can make without increasing the compression ratio, you can still do a lot of breathing mods but you can only benefit from it to a certain point. People are just a bit bat crazy over bolt on VR mods tbh...

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I don't understand what you're advocating here. Are you suggesting to do these mods (genuine intake mods, bigger valves, etc) over FI?

That is a truly beautiful manifold. I wonder if it still incorporates the variable intake runners? Or propably just for max gain I suppose.

Id say that intake manifold is designed with turbo conversions in mind given its identical runner length and the ditching of variable geometry. I dont think it would be a great option for an NA car.

Thats a pity, would look top notch.

the 2.8L has a lot of room for improvement in the head (as proven by the R32), and the intake manifold isnt ideal if your doing big mods to the motor.
That one looks to be for F/I usage, and note that equal length on the outside, but the intake ports are different on 3 of the cylinders so not really equal length from the valve.

The dual runner intake is proven to make a very big difference to low end torque

CNC Heads - VW VR6

CNC Heads - Custom made racing camshafts

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Originally Posted by Dyldo

I don't understand what you're advocating here. Are you suggesting to do these mods (genuine intake mods, bigger valves, etc) over FI?

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I think he was saying there's only so much power you can make before going FI, and if that's the case, he's right - in the end, without FI, you can only fill the cylinder with a single atmosphere's air pressure, and it's the O2 content that limits how much power you can make in the end.

That CNC page I linked to says the intake is pretty decent but the exhaust is terrible - doesn't surprise me given that between the 12v and 24v VR6s VW introduced the variable flow intake (you can get an after-market option to replicate it on 12v VR6s from Schrick) to optimise airflow for lower and then higher RPM...

Use a R32 head....already a better design!
To use the 2.8 24v head and to even match the performance of the R head is goin to cost u $$$$s......
And yes the head of the 2.8 24v head has room for more improvement

Can I take a guess that finding an R32 head would be very difficult?

YES Dyldo it would.....States is the way togo

better off buying the whole motor

i'm just talking here, but if we asume that FI increases the engine output at a certain % over its starting point its logical to assume a turbo'd R32 engine would be quicker than a turbo'd VR6 24V engine (holding aside the obvious displacement issue).

If the R32 head really is so much better though, is there a logical answer as to why a fabrication company hasn't made one for consumption?

of course a turbo r32 will make more power than a turbo 2.8, theres no replacement for displacement.

No-one is going to tool up a factory to make aftermarket heads for any car, let alone as small a niche market as the R32.

sorry, should have been more specific. i meant that if displacement were the same, then we assume that the big difference in the engine will be the head design correct? thats what i was trying to determine. my apologies.

With some hard work over the next 12 mths I genuinely believe i will come into some money, and one of the outcomes is to throw around $20K at my Bora and the lion's sare of that would be FI - most likely a Kinetic Motorsports turbo. Hence I am trying to be very clear on my build list and then find a guy to put it all together for me. At this stage I am considering City Performance in Artarmon.

But back to my OP, and can we agree now that as fine as this intake looks, the R32 head would be a better alternative?

If thats the case, then it *may* make the most sense to install a R32 engine in the Bora.

sorry if I misinterpreted what you said :)
yeah, even taking into account the displacement difference, the r32 makes more power per liter
3.2L 177kw = 55kw/L
2.8L 150kw = 53kw/L

If you have the cash i'd do the 3.2L swap, there is more support for the motor parts wise too, so you can build the motor etc.
But if on a budget a F/I 2.8L > n/a 3.2L

I'd love to do the 3.2L (or even better a 3.6L!), but pretty sure finding a suitable motor would be a long and expensive exercise

Stom Developments in the UK have crate motors, but I shudder to think how much they are asking...

stick to ur 2.8.....
034motorsport in the states developed a 2.8 24v with a R32 head with turbo with a tunes for circuit and drag of 600 to 800hps+
This motor is now forsale......
Buyin a R32 motor will cost ur arm and leg..
R32 head is the way togo....like i said earlier,to develop the 2.8 head to get gains even bigger than the R head will cost a **** load..
This is not sayin the 2.8 head is **** but cheaper is R32 head

i don't want to hijack my own thread and turn this into a drooling mess of "my dream build" thread, but i feel i have a pretty good reason for my thinking so far for the 2.8L turbo idea. See, i got my Bora for $12K (yes, i know its a bargain for a 4Mo) but the paint is terrible, and she was a bit tired. Thankfully, the engine and drivetrain were good but the suspension is shot.

Anyway, seeing as how I got it for 12K my thinking was that i could drop a few grand on detailing and paint resto and leather resto, a few more grand on rims, rubber, suspension and shocks (call it $6K now) and then around $15K on a turbo kit brings the Bora to a total spend of $35K approx give or take the odd exense here and there.

If a mint R32 is $35K then tbh i want my customised Bora.

I could go extra mental and do forged internals and balanced crank and oversized valves and basic headwork for a few more grand.

And of course the biggest (and best hp) expense would be an R32 engine ($5K USD) and do all the forged goodies and off she goes. But that $5K engine would have to cost $10K AUD landed, yes? However, that does make it a Bora R32 turbo with all new goodies for the additional cost of a R32. Plus there are more goodies and parts for a R32 as mentioned, as well as more tuners and ECU maps.

very inteersting. the thinking continues......

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Originally Posted by Dyldo

sorry, should have been more specific. i meant that if displacement were the same, then we assume that the big difference in the engine will be the head design correct? thats what i was trying to determine. my apologies.

With some hard work over the next 12 mths I genuinely believe i will come into some money, and one of the outcomes is to throw around $20K at my Bora and the lion's sare of that would be FI - most likely a Kinetic Motorsports turbo. Hence I am trying to be very clear on my build list and then find a guy to put it all together for me. At this stage I am considering City Performance in Artarmon.

But back to my OP, and can we agree now that as fine as this intake looks, the R32 head would be a better alternative?

If thats the case, then it *may* make the most sense to install a R32 engine in the Bora.

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Peter klaack at V force Mortlake...would be my choice of someone to do the install

VW Underground Parts on VW Vortex seem to have tonnes of wrecked R32s. They seem to sell R32 heads in varied condish for about $800 to $1K. What do you think might shipping be on a head? Given weight and volume, it might sting a little.

Some of my research seems to show that the R32 gets to 3.2L due to both bore and stroke, and then sometimes they just say its stroke. If it is bore (larger pistons) then a 2.8L with a R32 head obviously still won't be as good right? it;s too late for my brain to do this much work....

I personally dont think that it would be worth doing the R32 head unless you were going to put extra work into it, like headwork and cams.
The r32 head is better, but a lot of the extra power comes from the 400cc capacity bump too

Lets put it this way....
U already have a 2.8, it will rev harder! , a short runner manifold, aftermarket Ecu ,headers exhaust and a R32 head for ingredients...

Ur 24v 2.8 standard is 201hp compared to a 3.2 R32 stardard is 245 there abouts....
Do ur maths!!!!

22% more power from 14% more displacement.... do the R32 conversion, and while the 3.2 is out, then do some mild porting or even whack on the turbo!

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Anyway, seeing as how I got it for 12K my thinking was that i could drop a few grand on detailing and paint resto and leather resto, a few more grand on rims, rubber, suspension and shocks (call it $6K now) and then around $15K on a turbo kit brings the Bora to a total spend of $35K approx give or take the odd exense here and there.

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Thats a lot of cash. Unfortunately if you do ever decide to sell, you will probably loose most of it.
If it was me and if I was chasing the power you are, I'd either drop in an R36 or turbo the 2.8, beef it up with forged pistons and rods and run an aftermarket ECU (or piggy back if avail)

Just my 2c

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Originally Posted by Speed

Thats a lot of cash. Unfortunately if you do ever decide to sell, you will probably loose most of it.
If it was me and if I was chasing the power you are, I'd either drop in an R36 or turbo the 2.8, beef it up with forged pistons and rods and run an aftermarket ECU (or piggy back if avail)

Just my 2c

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Your 2c always appreciated. Whenever I mod (or think of modding) i have already "lost" the cash in my head, and I never expect to get back my mods. If I ever sell, and i wouldn't actually want to sell this ride, then if i ever got a premium over a mint Bora then its just gravy. I'm realistic about the spend and "losing" the cash but gaining a seriously unique ride and an enjoyable adventure along the way.

I am told an R36 donk would be heavy in an already-heavy car but I am sure we could set things up to match - harder front susp maybe?

A major benefit of going the 2.8L forged and goodied route is the ultimate confidence i'd have in the internals. If i boosted and headworked a R32 engine (mk4 or 5) then there is always the risk of a thrown rod or whatnot. and surely forged internals can take a pounding too.

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Originally Posted by Dyldo

Your 2c always appreciated. Whenever I mod (or think of modding) i have already "lost" the cash in my head, and I never expect to get back my mods. If I ever sell, and i wouldn't actually want to sell this ride, then if i ever got a premium over a mint Bora then its just gravy. I'm realistic about the spend and "losing" the cash but gaining a seriously unique ride and an enjoyable adventure along the way.

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Nicely said. Made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside :D

I'm warm and fuzzy from all the great posts, ideas and feedback I'm getting here. Makes me want to do this even more (and work harder to get thecash and leave-pass to do it).

r36 wouldnt be a great deal heavier than the 2.8L, but if your going to be spending that much your going to want big results.
Best way to get this is to boost, nothing beats the bang for buck going down that path.

and I agree, i've lost probably $20k on modifying my cars over the last 5 years, the way i see it is that money has been for the fun i've had in the cars.
Some people blow cash on drugs and alcohol, i like cars :)

Here's a few turbo's!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rDqGkxJ28c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTgEhsEXIoY

Would be soooo much fun, not sure how well your clutch and gearbox would take it.

Have just read something interesting - apparently at high boost levels, the stock ECU shuts the throttle on th 24v VR6 engines (2.8L and 3.2L) because it determines there's too much airflow (and thus torque) being produced. I wonder if that can be tuned out...

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Have just read something interesting - apparently at high boost levels, the stock ECU shuts the throttle on th 24v

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Yes very interesting but you'd still want to replace your rods & pistons so the motor don't s*** itself under those high boost levels.
Otherwise you could end up with an electricial problem similar to D. Johnson many years back, where the conrod smashed thru the block and discintergrated the distributor. Hate those electrical problems!

if your at that point, your probably going to be running a standalone ecu anyway, which if you get a decent one will have DBW throttle control.
is there anyone over east who can realtime retune ECU's (not just a generic flash)?