2 stroke oil (2SO) as an additive to diesel fuel

As quite a few us have come to appreciate, 2 stroke oil (2SO) when mixed with diesel fuel at around 200:1 can produce beneficial results. Common findings include quieter running due to lower injector and pump noises, reduced smoke (including before and after results in emissions tests during annual vehicle inspections), cleaner injector nozzles and smoother running.

So here's the new thread for continued discussion on this subject as recommended by one of the moderators.
Link to original closed thread - http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/foru...ing-55494.html

Just to kick off with some content, I have been asked why Nth Americans seem to use TCW-3 spec 2 stroke oil in their diesels while european discussions always revolve around JASO FB and FC specification oils.

The only reason that I can find is that the availability of the oils is different in the 2 continents.

Recreational 2 strokes are pretty much banned in North America due to emissions requirements except for outboard boat engines. Since these vent their exhaust into the water, the authorities require the 2 stroke oil to have no metallic content and the current specification that was drawn up for this TCW-3 (which they term "ashless"). This means that TCW-3 grade is by far the most readily available 2 stroke oil in North America so naturally, this is what their diesel owners (those who subscribe to this practice) will buy, use and discuss.
I have also seen discussion of it's use in more dilute form in petrol (gasoline to them) engines for reduction in fuel pump and injector noise.

In Europe, recreational land based 2 stroke engines are the norm and these tend to rev harder and may be subjected to greater loadings than marine 2 stroke engines so the JASO FB, C and D specification oils are required which have small amounts of metals that help in these areas. Since land based 2 stroke engines are more widely used, it follows that the JASO specification oils are more commonly available and it is these oils that are bought, used and discussed (by those diesel owners who subscribe to this practice).

For our diesels, the difference is almost certainly negligible as the speeds and loadings where the 2 stroke oil is providing additional lubrication is not that high vs the requirements of a 2 stroke racing engine. Given this, any of the 4 oil specifications will have the same effect with the proviso that JASO FB specification oil should not be used for engines with DPFs since the higher metallic content of this grade oil may load up the DPF sooner.

JASO FD specification oil is almost never discussed purely due to cost. Its performance is superior in regimes that are not experienced anywhere in the fuel system of a diesel (modern or not)

So would you agree that it's better to use a TC-W3, [semi synthetic, not full synthetic] rather than a Jaso FC with a DPF equipped car?
It's accepted that the 2SO lowers emissions and soot levels from the diesel combustion but I would have thought the ash content of the FC grade, although minimal, would be totally eliminated by using the TC-W3?

Why are there so many threads on the same subject?

Here is the link to the old thread. http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/foru...ing-55494.html

Watch you don't get 'cross threaded'! :-))

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Originally Posted by CardinalSin

So would you agree that it's better to use a TC-W3, [semi synthetic, not full synthetic] rather than a Jaso FC with a DPF equipped car?
It's accepted that the 2SO lowers emissions and soot levels from the diesel combustion but I would have thought the ash content of the FC grade, although minimal, would be totally eliminated by using the TC-W3?

Why are there so many threads on the same subject?

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While I agree with you on the benefits of 2SO as an additive, I wouldn't say that "It's accepted" since at least one moderator here and on other sites do not believe in the concept.

But to answer your question, I would say that, in theory, you're right in that it's better to use a TC-W3 rather than a JASO FC with a DPF equipped car but in practice, the additional ash levels in JASO FC spec 2SO at 200:1 are so low as to have a negligible effect on DPF loading. The reduced soot due to the more complete combustion will mean that the DPF will have less ash in either case - this is how the Cerium and Platinum based additives help maintain DPFs (if it was just the lower light regen temp, then the same soot would still be produced ash would would still accumulate).

By so many threads, do you mean on different forums?

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Originally Posted by kaanage

While I agree with you on the benefits of 2SO as an additive, I wouldn't say that "It's accepted" since at least one moderator here and on other sites do not believe in the concept.

But to answer your question, I would say that, in theory, you're right in that it's better to use a TC-W3 rather than a JASO FC with a DPF equipped car but in practice, the additional ash levels in JASO FC spec 2SO at 200:1 are so low as to have a negligible effect on DPF loading. The reduced soot due to the more complete combustion will mean that the DPF will have less ash in either case - this is how the Cerium and Platinum based additives help maintain DPFs (if it was just the lower light regen temp, then the same soot would still be produced ash would would still accumulate).

By so many threads, do you mean on different forums?

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Nothing is accepted by 100% of the community, there are always detractors. I mean it's accepted by the majority of those who are interested and widely read on the subject, those that have researched the experiences of others all over the world. Especially the experiences of those in countries that carry out emission tests each year where those emissions are dramatically lower.

The extended regen periods must be caused by the reduced soot and you may well be right that the ash is also reduced by the same factor? In fact when I think about it, the ash must be the residual of the regen and if the regen period is doubled then it's reasonable to expect the DPF to also have double the life before being choked by ash from the fuel.
With only a poxy 3 year warranty I can't think of a better way to extend the life of the engine etc.

By so many threads, I just meant it's been moved around a fair bit in this forum lately.
There are of course, loads of threads on the subject on many other forums which reflect the interest and widespread acceptance from those who want to extend their vehicles life, save money on fuel and reduce environmental emissions.

The global emissions is a very hot topic these days and I'm sure that if there were any additives in the 2SO that are safe to use they would be already in the diesel blend and the diesel fuel additives.

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Originally Posted by CardinalSin

I mean it's accepted by the majority of those who are interested and widely read on the subject, those that have researched the experiences of others all over the world. Especially the experiences of those in countries that carry out emission tests each year where those emissions are dramatically lower.

The extended regen periods must be caused by the reduced soot and you may well be right that the ash is also reduced by the same factor? In fact when I think about it, the ash must be the residual of the regen and if the regen period is doubled then it's reasonable to expect the DPF to also have double the life before being choked by ash from the fuel.
With only a poxy 3 year warranty I can't think of a better way to extend the life of the engine etc.

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Yes the people in Europe and the UK who report about the reduction in their smoke or haze tests at their annual inspections provide enough weight for me to continue with this practice - this is actually a measurable effect unlike the noise reductions that most others report. And after all, what's in it for them to make stuff up and spend additional money over their base fuel cost for zero benefit?

Yes, DPFs only catch soot particles (which make up the smoke) and it is the non-organic component in these particles that are left behind after the DPF has done a regen that loads it up (these residues being the ash).

If the combustion is improved, then the soot is reduced so the DPF catches less => longer regen intervals and lower loading of the DPF, even if the non-organic content of the soot is very slightly higher (as would be the case with a JASO FC oil).

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Originally Posted by Transporter

The global emissions is a very hot topic these days and I'm sure that if there were any additives in the 2SO that are safe to use they would be already in the diesel blend and the diesel fuel additives.

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How do you know that 2SO isn't part of diesel fuel additives already?

Most fuel injector cleaners have a large percentage (up to 50%) of white spirit (mineral turps). If you told people to pour mineral turps in their fuel tank they would blanche but if you give them a bottle labelled "Fuel Injector Cleaner" they are more amenable to the idea.

Personally, I think it boils down to those willing to experiment & those that aren't.

I find it amusing that you say that you always follow the instructions but don't the vehicle manufacturers say that additives aren't necessary? Therefore your use of chemicals labelled "diesel fuel additive" goes against the manufacturers instructions.


BTW: On Friday I put 50ml of the 10 year old Stihl / Castrol 2SO was sitting on the shelf at home & then added 1 litre of 50:1 premix because it was looking a bit stale. I figure thats about 1000:1 ratio in my petrol. I've thought nothing of it until this discussion.
Here's an interesting observation: Usually in the commute from home to where the motoraway starts (5km) I think I'm going well if the avg economy slips below 10L/100km. The last 2 days it's been below 9L/100km. So, 2 stroke fuel / better run of lights / less traffic overall / ideal air temperature (24c)? Who knows. It will be interesting to see how it goes long term.

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Originally Posted by kaanage

Yes the people in Europe and the UK who report about the reduction in their smoke or haze tests at their annual inspections provide enough weight for me to continue with this practice - this is actually a measurable effect unlike the noise reductions that most others report. And after all, what's in it for them to make stuff up and spend additional money over their base fuel cost for zero benefit?

Yes, DPFs only catch soot particles (which make up the smoke) and it is the non-organic component in these particles that are left behind after the DPF has done a regen that loads it up (these residues being the ash).

If the combustion is improved, then the soot is reduced so the DPF catches less => longer regen intervals and lower loading of the DPF, even if the non-organic content of the soot is very slightly higher (as would be the case with a JASO FC oil).

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The reduction in engine noise could be measured in decibels if you had one of those meters. Most people report it's quieter and it's logical and reasonable to assume if it was louder they would say 'it's louder' and once again they have no motive to say it's quieter if it's actually louder or the same. My last vehicle was a good example of that, it was much quieter and smoother, an unmistakable difference.

As was the fuel consumption, since I keep records the 5% improvement was obvious and immediate.

To all interested in this topic - I'd REALLY appreciate if we could keep opinions to a minimum and stick to a representation of evidence if at all possible.

I think Transporter has made his opinion abundantly clear, and noone else need try to justify or promote the use of 2SO in fuel either.

The fact is that 2SO is not a dedicated diesel fuel additive, for whatever that may be worth, ofcourse you run it at your own risk, and as long as you arent doing anything illegal in adding it to your diesel (you arent as far as I'm aware) then theres no reason to qualify it any further than that.

From now on, please all lets just keep to the science and steer clear of the opinion.... hopeful I know, but hey I'm a glass half full kinda guy :-)

In that light, I can report that my fuel economy from the last tank sucked bigtime, but that might be more to do with the fact I towed around my 600kg duel axle trailer full of building supplies for around 250km. So yeah, results for this tank are invalid!

Back to facts and observations.

I have been using TCW-3 for a while now after starting out with JASO FB (in my PD non-DPF Polo) and FC (in our CR DPF Golf).
Why did I change? Cost - I was able to buy a lot of TCW-3 very cheaply when Shell repackaged their Nautilus outboard oil.

I haven't found any difference between using the JASO and TCW-3 oils.

With noise, it would actually be interesting to measure both the volume and the frequency difference as I suspect that better lubrication may shift the frequency of injector and pump noises downwards rather than altering the volume much as high frequency sounds are often perceived as being louder. But I also suspect that isolating a recording from other noises would be very difficult.

Sorry, I meant the other noises inherent in a running diesel engine (fans, inlet, exhaust...), not the general ambient condition

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kaanage

Back to facts and observations.
With noise, it would actually be interesting to measure both the volume and the frequency difference as I suspect that better lubrication may shift the frequency of injector and pump noises downwards rather than altering the volume much as high frequency sounds are often perceived as being louder. But I also suspect that isolating a recording from other noises would be very difficult.

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You would also need to make sure that you had got rid of all the 2SO to test the sound because even small amounts make a difference.
The Subaru 2L port and direct injection NA petrol engine has a common fault when using fuel with ethanol. The HP pump for the DI can get noisy and make a chirping sound as the ethanol is not a good lubricant. Positive results have been had using 2SO as diluted as 1:1000 in the fuel to shut it up and virtually instantly. The max you can use in a petrol motor is about 1:500 and again I have never seen any negative reports, only positive or nothing changed.

It would also be a pointless exercise on an engine that gave no noticeable signs of running quieter after adding 2SO.
I would imagine, after the results I had with the Mitsubishi 2.5 CRD, that most noisy diesels would benefit and run much quieter.
The VW 2L is very quiet but mine is now exceptionally quiet.

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Originally Posted by CardinalSin

... that most noisy diesels would benefit and run much quieter.
The VW 2L is very quiet but mine is now exceptionally quiet.

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+1

Whitworths Marine have Sunbrite TC-W3 on special $22 for 3.8 litres (1 US gallon) - the stuff I use.

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Originally Posted by putney40

+1

Whitworths Marine have Sunbrite TC-W3 on special $22 for 3.8 litres (1 US gallon) - the stuff I use.

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Good price. That's less than half the price I can get the Valvoline TC-W3 and only about a dollar for the average fill up.
I usually fill up after about 600km and add 1/3 of the km in ml's so 200ml, then fill her up so it's well blended.

But those who do buy it do it for quieter running due to lower injector and pump noises, reduced smoke (including before and after results in emissions tests during annual vehicle inspections), cleaner injector nozzles and smoother running.

People should try before expressing opinions and coming up with conjecture and speculation - if it makes no difference or has adverse effects, then by all means post up your observations.

You have to ask yourself why the highly qualified industrial lubricant and fuel engineers don't know about 2so's benefits.
Could it be because of the potential downside over time or is it more of an emissions issue?

Or it doesn't generate as much profit as a dedicated additive (which they can charge more for)? This is as valid a piece of speculation as yours.

Here's an experience from someone else on this forum

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BTW: On Friday I put 50ml of the 10 year old Stihl / Castrol 2SO was sitting on the shelf at home & then added 1 litre of 50:1 premix because it was looking a bit stale. I figure thats about 1000:1 ratio in my petrol. I've thought nothing of it until this discussion.
Here's an interesting observation: Usually in the commute from home to where the motoraway starts (5km) I think I'm going well if the avg economy slips below 10L/100km. The last 2 days it's been below 9L/100km. So, 2 stroke fuel / better run of lights / less traffic overall / ideal air temperature (24c)? Who knows. It will be interesting to see how it goes long term.

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Originally Posted by Ryeman

You have to ask yourself why the highly qualified industrial lubricant and fuel engineers don't know about 2so's benefits.
Could it be because of the potential downside over time or is it more of an emissions issue?

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If you take the time to read the MSDSs for the various products you'll find many common ingredients (eg: hydrotreated light petroleum distillates; petroleum naptha) in 2SO and some of the diesel & petrol additives. Some of the minor ingredients (<1% volume) are different but the carrier fluid is similar / the same.

If I was a specialist in the field and 2SO was worth $12/L and diesel additive was $24/L and they both contained the same basic ingredients & did a similar job I wouldn't publicise it too much either.

Warning: slightly off topic: It's similar to when i had a Macintosh LC475 computer. You could change two surface mount resistors and change the clock speed from 25Mhz to the same 33Mhz clock as a more expensive model. Apple didn't tell anyone this because (obviously) they would buy the cheaper model & Apple would lose the fatter profit margin. Same as above, why would you market that 2 stroke fuel was a diesel additive for $12/L when you can add/remove some of the additive pack & sell it as Diesel Additive for $24/L???

An important point in these discussions is that most of us have tried the various additives to test the claims on the container.
From my experience it's been largely a waste of money because nothing claimed seems to happen but you assume it must have been of some benefit because it said so on the label.
That's why 2SO stands out because, compared to the shelf additives that disappoint, the change was magical and it makes you want to share the experience. Especially when I have yet to find any negatives and it actually saves money.
I'll check that claim.
600km @ 6.3L/100km = 37.8L @ $1.50 per L = $56.70
600km @ 6.7L/100km = 40.2L @ $1.50 per L = $60.30
Saving $3.60
200ml of 2SO at $12 per L = $2.40 in bulk that would be $1.20 and there's another 3km from the extra 200ml of fuel too.
Net saving $1.20 to $2.40 + 200ml extra fuel = $1.39 to $2.59
Hopefully those calculations are correct.

To me, at least, I ask myself why the brands all have the same basic chemistry?
Why doesn't one 'break ranks' and add it to the basic stock supply and market it as a 'breakthrough'?
Is 2so used as a diesel additive in Europe frinstance?
I'm not being argumentative just trying to 'try' all the facts. (cos I could be tempted when it's out of warranty)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryeman

To me, at least, I ask myself why the brands all have the same basic chemistry?
Why doesn't one 'break ranks' and add it to the basic stock supply and market it as a 'breakthrough'?
Is 2so used as a diesel additive in Europe frinstance?
I'm not being argumentative just trying to 'try' all the facts. (cos I could be tempted when it's out of warranty)

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Because it would cause a momentary blip in sales but ultimately be self-defeating?

Have you ever worked in an industry that develops / sells products? Generally you'll have a low price / low profit product line, then a higher profit superior line.

Water is probably a good example. We can all get it out of a tap for about $2.30/ kL but the same thing in a bottle is 2.30/L. The people selling the bottled water aren't going to say it's just water that brad has dipped his arms in (I did that last Tuesday Sydney-siders - hope you like the taste) in so suddenly it's spring water or 100% pure rainwater or vitamin water with special powers.

Judging by your previous posts, you are very conservative with these things so I doubt using 2SO is for you (nothing wrong with that). I think you'd be overly worried.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryeman

To me, at least, I ask myself why the brands all have the same basic chemistry?
Why doesn't one 'break ranks' and add it to the basic stock supply and market it as a 'breakthrough'?
Is 2so used as a diesel additive in Europe frinstance?
I'm not being argumentative just trying to 'try' all the facts. (cos I could be tempted when it's out of warranty)

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It's used as a diesel additive all over the world and there are members of this forum that use it in their petrol engines for the same reasons, just a lower amount.
Just google something like "2 stroke oil in diesel engines" and read through the experiences of others. You might then decide to try it.
If it does only add benefits and there are no negatives how can it effect warranty? Any negatives expressed here have been pure speculation and in the real world, where people report their findings, they don't exist, at least not yet from my extensive reading.
Have a good google and if you find any negative experiences post them here.
The best the haters can manage and there are always haters, is to speculate on the negatives, rave about those that report no change and diagnose all positive results as being a figment of everyone's imagination because it doesn't match their speculation.

Anyway, have a read and perhaps then try it once when you fill up next time by adding 300ml just before the diesel goes in and see what you think. TC-W3 or JASO FC not fully synthetic. If you're worried about dobbers and I can understand that, please drop me a pm to let me know the results.

I'd love to see a 'double blind test' done on noise and economy frinstance.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryeman

I'd love to see a 'double blind test' done on noise and economy frinstance.


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You can do the noise test by picking someone who rides with you and going on about the engine noise so they are aware of it. Maybe keep saying 'do you think I should have got the petrol? Does this sound noisy to you?' That way they are aware, then slip the 2SO in and say, 'Do you think this has changed and got louder or quieter?'
Many posts contain the comment that their wife or whoever mentioned the engine was quieter, it was that pronounced and they hadn't mentioned doing anything.

For the economy just compare over time with and without. If your driving style is the same you know the results are real, whatever they might be?

Unless you subscribe to a conspiracy theory, that thousands of people have decided to pretend 2SO gives benefits, it's reasonable to assume their comments are genuine. If their findings were negative or neutral then that's what they would have posted. They don't get paid or get any other benefit.

As Brad said, it may not be for you. You seem to be talking yourself out of it and that's fair enough.

Nah! Just a cynical GOM


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I suspect it is to do with NOX emissions as to why it's not a spectrum standard.


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You think the more complete combustion is due to the 2SO making the diesel burn hotter? Why is that?

As an aside, the moderators have asked us to limit discussion in this thread to findings and observations - your posts are very speculative.

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Originally Posted by kaanage

You think the more complete combustion is due to the 2SO making the diesel burn hotter? Why is that?

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Those with an EGT gauge report much lower temperatures using 2SO, another indicator of the better combustion and cleaner exhaust.

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Originally Posted by CardinalSin

Those with an EGT gauge report much lower temperatures using 2SO, another indicator of the better combustion and cleaner exhaust.

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Which should lower NOx emissions...

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Originally Posted by kaanage

Which should lower NOx emissions...

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Confirmed by those who have yearly emissions tests. Still no negatives, just positives.

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Originally Posted by CardinalSin

Those with an EGT gauge report much lower temperatures using 2SO, another indicator of the better combustion and cleaner exhaust.

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You are reporting on a lot of little tidbits with no references - I mean literally - can you post links to places where you have read such info? Its always good to be able to contextualise information for oneself. One thing that can happen easily on the internet is where you read what someone said someone else did and you pass that on and before you know it the story is 27th hand and fact rather than a first hand observation with context.

speaking of first hand observations, I have noticed a bit of smoke of late - so not sure if something has changed or not but I'll keep an eye on it.

I refuelled yesterday and forgot to add any 2SO and have already done 200km, so I might put some in now and see if the smokyness changes at all.

Here is a first hand account (admittedly not mine) with the result of the UK MOT Exhaust Opacity Test on a 3 year old car before and after using 2 stroke oil as an additive for about 10 months
Freel2.com - View topic - 2-stroke oil and diesel

Is it worth digging up more?

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Originally Posted by gldgti

You are reporting on a lot of little tidbits with no references - I mean literally - can you post links to places where you have read such info? Its always good to be able to contextualise information for oneself. One thing that can happen easily on the internet is where you read what someone said someone else did and you pass that on and before you know it the story is 27th hand and fact rather than a first hand observation with context.

speaking of first hand observations, I have noticed a bit of smoke of late - so not sure if something has changed or not but I'll keep an eye on it.

I refuelled yesterday and forgot to add any 2SO and have already done 200km, so I might put some in now and see if the smokyness changes at all.

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Fair comment. I'll see if I can dig up a couple of those EGT posts later.

thanks for the link kaanage.

It's hard to find the EGT but i've seen it several times and haven't given up.

Here's a post that mentions the 'wife test' for an unbiased opinion on the noise reduction.

I've been adding 2-stroke (Castrol Activ2T) to my 05 Patrol for the last few months and I have definately noticed a difference. I've even done "The wife test".. I didn't use the 2stroke for 2 tanks so the engine went back to its noisy self. I then dosed my next tank without telling the wife, she drive the car the next day and asked what i had done because the car was much quieter...

Two stroke oil in Diesel - The Shed - Perth4x4

Here's one to start with on reduced EGT.

"I filled both tanks this morning adding 400ml to the main tank and 200ml to the sub. I filled up at Mobil and used their 2 stroke oil for chainsaws etc.

Have only done a few kilometers, both city and now hwy driving and the car sounds and feels heaps better. Much smoother and quieter. The EGT's on the fwy also appear to be down about 10 to 20 degrees.

A definate improvement! http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/foru...ggringif-2.jpg"

2 stroke oil in your diesel fuel - Page 4 - Patrol 4x4 - Nissan Patrol Forum


http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/547249-post365.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kaanage

Here is a first hand account (admittedly not mine) with the result of the UK MOT Exhaust Opacity Test on a 3 year old car before and after using 2 stroke oil as an additive for about 10 months
Freel2.com - View topic - 2-stroke oil and diesel

Is it worth digging up more?

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Here's another one I found from Sweden.

Patrol 4x4 - Nissan Patrol Forum - View Single Post - 2 stroke oil in your diesel fuel

And another one.

Patrol 4x4 - Nissan Patrol Forum - View Single Post - 2 stroke oil in your diesel fuel

Here's a post with a measured decibel noise reduction.

Patrol 4x4 - Nissan Patrol Forum - View Single Post - 2 stroke oil in your diesel fuel