Printable View
Derek, never thought about ESP, it is a very valid point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick
I remember the dealer telling me the reasons why it is expensive and he was talking about electronics of the car.
Well it is worth looking at the genuine then.
Now, all needs to be done is someone find that box that connect tow bar with the car, open it and see if there is any electronics inside other than relays and diodes. Because I've got 2 wiring kits from the time I had Vito vans and I opened one and all I can see inside is relays and diodes only.
Tow bar wiring box.
If the inside electronics were only a few diodes and relays, than it wouldn't have to be that expensive to DIY as it was mentioned on Autospeed website.
Just my 2c.
Well, the diodes are there to avoid reverse polarity and current going the wrong way and the relays are there simply to switch the lights on the trailer without blowing anything with high switching currents. I an not sure if this has anything to do with ESP?Quote:
Originally Posted by Transporter
Hi guys.
I have been in the dark when it comes to understanding what this special "wiring loom" that you need to integrate with the Tig's ESP, and just what it does when towing a trailer. So I consulted my friend Google and found this very informative explanation of what TSP (Trailer Stability Program) is, what it does, and what the difference between it and a standard "read only" relay box :google:
http://www.towbarexpress.co.uk/esp.html
Choice quotes:
Example of caravan jack-knifing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4MQEYe4_0YQuote:
TSP’s are really an extended software application for the existing ESP system. <snip> This feature has be borne out of the truck industry where manufacturers had been trying to combat the ‘Jack knifing’ effect of trailers. With additional yaw sensors and software applications, they were able to create a trailer stability program using the existing ESP.
Quote:
To enable the system to function or activate, the car MUST know when it is towing. This information is through the towing socket. Therefore, the use of by-pass electrical installations will NOT under any circumstances, allow this system to operate. The use of *vehicle specific CANbus wiring kits will allow this feature to be active provided the towing module is a module which the car can communicate with and recognises. There are a number of CANbus towing modules which are termed ‘read’ only and in this case, they are not visible to the car.
Video of Land Rovers Trailer Stability Assist (which is different to VW's as Land Rover's does not seem to need to know when a trailer is attached or not): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gyc4DmgbewQuote:
How do these work?
When the vehicle is determined to be towing, then the yaw sensors that would normally operate with the ESP system, allow for an additional movement which is detected when ‘fishtailing’ occurs. <snip> In the case of the VW systems, when the T-Esp system activates, it is applied for maximum 30 seconds or until the vehicle/caravan combination is back under control. If it still remains out of control, then the system re-energises for another 30 seconds.
Video of Volvo XC60 Trailer stability assist (demonstrates how it works): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIMxVzUnBSA
So that's answered a few questions for me. In my case, I actually don't want the tow hitch for towing a trailer, I want it for a dirt bike carrier (http://www.ezimotow.com.au/gallery.htm), so by the sounds of things I don't need the VW wiring loom... a "dumb" relay just so the lights work would be fine. However, if the cost difference between a Hayman Reece with dumb relay box and a VW OEM hitch isn't that much, I would opt for the OEM. If you are towing a trailer, it seems pretty clear to me that getting the VW wiring loom is the only smart thing to do.
I hope this helps you guys as much as it helped me.
I guess it comes down to what you want to use the towbar for.....
If you regularly tow a big boat or a caravan, I'd probably go for the factory fitted (or dealer fitted) system that fully integrates with the ESP for peace of mind.
If you are going to be towing a small trailer or use it for a bike rack or added rear protection I see no benefit in going for the factory fitted kit.
I regularly tow all kinds of stuff behind a RAV4 and a DualCab ute (both without ESP) and have never needed anything other than a bit of common sense and some road sense. (These are both obviously lacking in those that will vocalise disdain for anything not factory/dealer fitted :rolleyes:)
Exactly, horses for courses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkie
:rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkie
Careful there mate, you're opening yourself up for the "well I used to drive a car without ESP and never had an accident, but that doesn't mean the ESP isn't safer" argument :rolleyes:. Same thing with this I guess... if you are an experienced trailer user you probably don't need the Trailer Assist, but you would benefit from it. And for those who are not experienced at towing a trailer, Trailer Assist is probably a must.
I guess my post was more just to let people know what it was all about and the pro's and con's of going for the OEM wiring loom vs a dumb one.
The other point to recognise is that people aren't going to own the car for its "lifetime" and what's OK for you might not be OK for the next owner/s. I'd like to think that people who are effectively bypassing some of the safety features of the vehicle at least leave some note of this in the vehicle so the next owner/s can put the "correct" system in should they so desire.
As I've said before I find it counterintuitive that when you own an expensive, superbly designed vehicle, such as the Tig, you'd scrimp over an issue like this, but maybe spend thousands upgrading the sound system ??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkie
You're both missing the point, the car has ESP standard and it's irrelevant that you know what to do if the trailer or car gets out of control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctra
If something occurs and it calls for the ESP to kick in (and it doesn't take a lot for it to do so) the trailer/trail bike/whatever is being towed will confuse the ESP system and it will react in a different way potentially putting you in a worse position than if you didn't have ESP.
Unlike you the ESP doesn't have eyes and relies on a few sensors to know what is occurring and how to react.
Sharkie I'm all for the Volkswagen module as it integrates into the car correctly and whilst it may not be intended that the towbar would be used to tow anything at some point in the future it probably will maybe not by you but by a future owner. Personally I wouldn't want to sell a car knowing this it has a key safety system made unsafe under some circumstances especially when towing is probably when ESP is most likely to be called into action. :banana:
Hey Mav, I'm glad you've chimed in here as I know you're pretty knowledgeable about this sort of stuff. A couple of responses to what you're said above which I wouldn't mind your responses to (I'm not being argumentative, I'm trying to find stuff out):Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverick
1) To say it's irrelevant whether you know how to react to a trailer losing control when you have ESP doesn't sit well with me. ESP is a driver aid, and I would be more willing to give VW the benefit of the doubt that they would not put something on the car that makes it MORE dangerous than a car without it operated by a savvy driver.
The ESP would react quicker that you for sure, but would it really override your input to the point of being less stable? From what I understand, trailer assist will allow for more yaw when towing, so that would imply it would simply kick in earlier if you are towing without the proper wiring loom. Implications? Well, a lof of ABS noise, quicker wearing brakes, and an unpleasant driving experience if your trailer is heavy and swaying a lot, but I can't see what more would be caused.
I hear you on the somewhat "scare mongering" call of "potentially putting you in a worse position than if you didn't have ESP", but I counter it with the argument that you could get fatally injured crossing the road jay-walking. Yes, it could happen, but if your reasonably smart about things it's unlikely.
2) In my example of a bike carrier (as opposed to a proper trailer), the forces exerted on the rear of the vehicle are going to be different to those of a proper trailer. How would the extra weight of a 130km bike (plus whatever extra force is exerted on the rear of the car through the lever-effect of having the bike sticking out the back) be any different to having a heavy load (for arguments sake 200kg's) in the boot? Surely the Tiguans ESP is designed to handle a range of loads in the rear (with a typically German large-ish margin for safety)? I would actually be a little concerned that the Tiguan's ESP with the proper Trailer Assist loom would assume there is a trailer on when it's just the carrier, increase it's tolerances, and in so doing allow the rear to step out further than it ordinarily would be allowed to before ESP/Trailer Assist kicks in to save he day. Do you have any idea which is the greater threat to safety?
Actra makes an interesting point when the coupling "isn't" being used for a trailer but one thing I can assure you of is that standard ESP does NOT work well with a trailer on. I know of a Kia owner who ended up jackknifed BECAUSE of the ESP (ie: dumb standard esp which didn't factor the trailer in). He was later advised by Kia to run with his ESP "OFF" when towing !!!. I personally doubt that the ESP would be slower to react with the trailer stabilisation switched "on" than normal but I'm no expert. I also suspect you'd be less likely to be sliding around on the road "needing" the ESP when you've got bikes hanging on your bumper !!
Cheers