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Thread: A few things about oils...

  1. #1
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    A few things about oils...

    Here's an email i got today from the Old Man through The Standard 1320 Group..

    It's mainly more so to do with extreme high performance engines (No, that's not your 2.0L FSI), but definitely worth a read none the less..

    This is a good thread, and there are some good answers. But I feel strongly that Joel's comment about oil may be the key - after all, a good crank and good, brand name bearings properly installed should live a good long time under most (key word, most) circumstances. The variable element here is the oil, especially under the operating environment (alcohol for fuel) that they are.

    Alky (and nitro) are many, many times more corrosive than gasoline. In addition, they are both much stronger solvents, which tend to dilute the oil faster. Why does this happen? Two reasons:

    1. The fuel "washes" the cylinder walls clean of the oil and reduces ring seal, so more of the fuel gets into the oil pan (also causing a slight loss of power).

    2. The diluted oil/fuel mixture breaks down the oil faster which results in 'wiping', 'flaking' and other bearing problems, all of which result in premature wear and failure.

    Since most racers regard oil as an afterthought, or something that they get free at the race and pour into the engine ("hey, it's just oil, right? It doesn't matter what it is....."), bearing/crank/piston failure is often attributed to the PARTS instead of the OIL. There IS a difference in oils, belive me. It's the lifeblood of your engine. Let me give you an analogy.

    Go to the hospital and get a blood transfusion with a different blood type. Then go home and put an off-the-parts-house-shelf 20w50 into your highly strung alky/nitro engine. Take it racing for a weekend. Well, actually, you won't be able to - you're either dead or very, very sick in the emergency room because you have the wrong blood type. So your buddy takes the car out and runs it whilst you recover (assuming you do). Figuring it's new oil, he doesn't really check it and doesn't change it, thinking you will Tuesday night. Unfortunately, it kicks the rods during the first round of eliminations. The oil is babypuke yellow/green and ultra thin, and all the bearings (at least the ones you can find) show signs of direct metal contact with the crank.

    What's the cause? Wrong fluid in the body/engine. Alky engines need an oil that can maintain a higher ring seal and resist cylinder wall 'washing' compared to gasoline - in other words, an oil that STAYS on the cylinder walls. Off the shelf 20w50 has no hope of achieving that goal. So the crankcase loads up with alky (or nitro). Because you have a good high-volume/high pressure oil pump, it really never shows signs of oil pressure loss until it's too late and boom.

    What am I leading up to here? You guessed it - you need the right kind of oil. Unfortunately, due to intense and clever advertising, huge giveaway deals at bigger races and generous contingency programs, you probably aren't running the ONLY oil that has been engineered from the beginning to solve this upper cylinder wash and oil dilution problem - Torco with MPZ© (yeah, you knew this was coming!). But it's true. Most of the stuff being given away out there is not engineered for an alky or nitro engine, and some of it is just plain JUNK! I'm not going to step into the gutter and name names, that's unprofessional..... but there are a lot of racers out there that have learned the hard way about oils, and now BUY Torco instead of taking the free stuff. Many of them (especially in NASCAR, which doesn't even use alky as a fuel) are heavily sponsored by other oil brands but run Torco (with those other brands' approval - why should they care what's actually in the engine? The public doesn't know.) On the average, about 30 of the NASCAR teams out there every weekend have Torco in the crankcase, transmission and rear end. But whatever, we don't care about NASCAR.

    There are a LOT of Nostalgia teams who buy Torco, many of them from me. Some of them are on this message board. They know it costs a lot up front, but they also know it saves them money in the long run. If any of them want to speak up, fine, but I"m not going to ask them too. All I know is I'm glad to help these racers and proud to know what they're running that helps them win.

    Jeff, I have no idea what your clearance setup is, but I'd be willing to wager that if you'd put Torco in your crankcase after talking with someone as to the correct oil for your application, you'd get significantly longer bearing/ring/piston & crank life - and get a little more horsepower due to the increased ring seal. Based on what little I know of your application, I'd use Torco Semi-Synthetic T4R 20w50. The T4R has a small amount of an additive that does a great job of increasing the ring seal with alky & nitro, even more so that the regular TR1 straight petroleum oil. Both have Torco's exclusive MPZ© which is the 'magic' that keeps the cylinder walls from washing and causing oil dilution.

    OK, off the soap box. Visit www.torcousa.com for additional information, or email me.

    We now return you to your regular programing.

    Hal Sanguinetti
    TNT Distributing/Torco Oils

    APR Tuned | KW Suspension | INA Engineering | Mocal Oil Control |
    Website: http://www.tprengineering.com
    Email: chris@tprengineering.com

  2. #2
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    ignoring the blatant advertising push, thats good info... therefore I stickied it

    cheers Preeny!
    VW: it aint just a car, its a way of life
    There are few things more satisfying in life than finding a solution to a problem and implementing it
    My Blog: tinkererstales.blogspot.com.au

  3. #3
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    I took a look at the Penrite oils and really like HPR15 engine oil (not for every engine). It looks very robust semi synthetic oil to me. Very high HTHS, TBN, Noack Volatility (oil evaporation at high temperature) Zinc %; all these I consider as important when comparing oils.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Transporter View Post
    HTHS, TBN
    what are these?
    '07 Touareg V6 TDI with air suspension
    '98 Mk3 Cabriolet 2.0 8V
    '99 A4 Quattro 1.8T

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by gldgti View Post
    what are these?
    HTHS is high temperature high shear viscosity - higher is better
    TBN measures the depletion of detergents present in engine oil for the purposes of neutralizing acidic blow-by gases.

    I posted this link long time ago, but have look if you like it is very nice website.
    http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/index....tent&Itemid=58

  6. #6
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    Castrol engine oil VW506.01 for PD TDI. Explaining VW engine test. Old article but very informative.
    http://www.mediafire.com/file/zwmy0dy2nhm/Castrol oil for VW PD Unit Injector TDi.pdf

    New ILSAC GF-5 standards are coming.
    This is very informative site about oil licensing and certification.
    http://www.gf-5.com/process_and_indu...certification/
    http://www.gf-5.com/why_gf_5/regulat...ancestandards/

    Something to read about synthetic oils.
    Warning! It could be extremely boring for some.
    http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...articleid=2021
    Last edited by Transporter; 05-09-2009 at 09:15 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoLfMan View Post
    ignoring the blatant advertising push, thats good info... therefore I stickied it

    cheers Preeny!
    Yeah i forgot to mention that fact...


    Thanks Transporter for adding that extra info too!

    APR Tuned | KW Suspension | INA Engineering | Mocal Oil Control |
    Website: http://www.tprengineering.com
    Email: chris@tprengineering.com

  8. #8
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    VWA don't like early oil changes on new VWs

    I was in at my local VW dealer booking both my Transporter and my Octavia in for "intermediate" oil changes (I do lots of short trips in one, and the other won't be used much for the next 3 months), and I had an interesting converation with the service person about frequency of oil changes.

    She told me that VW now strongly recommend to owners of new VW vehicles (both diesels and petrols) to leave the original oil until it is 15,000km or 12 months old (whichever is the sooner). And that changing it sooner could lead to warranty problems, especially if related to oil consumption. Her explanation is that VWs now come with "special running in oil" that should be left in to help the engine to run in properly.

    I asked for a copy of the bulletin to see exactly what VWA said, but was told "Sorry, it's for internal VW consumption only".

    I'm still happy that I drove both of mine sensibly but with vigour on lots of hills in the first 1,000km to help the rings seal better in the bores, and also did an intermediate oil change, but it seems that VW don't want you to do the extra oil change before the first official oil change at 15,000km or 12 months old.

    One can only assume they have good reasons for saying this, as it is reducing dealer income.

    Anyone with access to the official bulletin that can add to what I was told ?
    2017 MY18 Golf R 7.5 Wolfsburg wagon (boring white) delivered 21 Sep 2017, 2008 Octavia vRS wagon 2.0 TFSI 6M (bright yellow), 2006 T5 Transporter van 2.5 TDI 6M (gone but not forgotten).

  9. #9
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    IMO, there is no special oil for running in and you can't harm the engine with a clean oil. I don't want to start something here, but the same VW is not able to reliably solve many problems on T5's like excessive valve train components wear out, steering clonk, leaking water pump and other. First it was biodiesel fever than came with complete Biodiesel ban. So ahead with everything.

    And they're so sure that early oil change leads to higher oil consumption for that I would need a bit more explaining, with some hard evidence and proper tests.

    I think it is just a pore excuse and higher oil consumption in some engine is caused by something else.

  10. #10
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    Gotta agree totally with you, Transporter..

    If an engine doesn't bed in properly it's probably got more to do with the way it is being used than anything else.. But you being a diesel mechanic would know more than i do about that one.. I'm going off previous experience with a different type of engine..

    APR Tuned | KW Suspension | INA Engineering | Mocal Oil Control |
    Website: http://www.tprengineering.com
    Email: chris@tprengineering.com

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