Volkswagen under investigation over illegal software that masks pollution

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Originally Posted by Greg Roles

Will be very interesting to see how this plays out, but I can't help thinking there will be a updated diesel tune released, and the cars will start on regen or something to quickly heat up the NOX cat on cold start where the majority of emissions occur in a test. That would be a nightmare.

Cool diesel combustion produces less NOX. Sadly cooler diesel temps produce more soot, and it is indeed a catch 22. If we end up with a cooler combustion cycle via a ECU update, expect far more regens as the DPF will be filling a lot faster. VW have done this as running that much EGR all the time, combined with oil blowby, and all new diesels will start choking up on their own crap far sooner as well.

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Looks like this is going to be a tricky one to resolve. Run cooler to meet NOX levels, create a bunch of soot and fill up your DPF faster. Plus in the process run more EGR which will put the soot back into the engine and coat the internal with crap as well.... makes me glad I have a petrol car.

Though if I owned one of the effected vehicles I'd be reluctant to take it anywhere near a dealer in case they updated the ECU with the low emissions/high maintenance tune file.

Curious to know if this problem is largely due to the poor quality low cetane diesel available in USA. Went to look at TDIclub forum - started 18/9/2015 and now has 204 pages with 3050 posts in 5 days! A lot of reading to do....

More when I can make sense. TDI club has some good information links at the start of the thread.
Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs trigger massive recall, stop sale - TDIClub Forums

USA EPA has written about effect of increasing cetane 5 points to 50 on NOX. (Google: NOX cetane) But USA diesel specification is for a cetane min 40, which is 6 points lower than our min 46 and our VAG diesels with DPF all specify cetane 51 minimum.

Still looking to see what VWoA (USA) TDI specifications say about cetane.

In 2002, VW called for increasing USA Diesel Fuel to 55 Cetane Minimum. So clearly they knew they had a problem. I wouldn't be surprised to see that the USA VW TDI spec calls for cetane perhaps 51 like ours, which permits them to shift blame for emissions to government regulations and poor fuel available. I suspect there will be a load more legal argument to come....

The researchers that discovered the problem using mobile NOX test equipment noted that the test BMWX5 didn't cause the NOX to go up, compared with VW TDI.

Sounds like there is a simple solution to retrofit AdBlue urea injection (+/- a supply of the additive) to the affected vehicles.

There will be legal argument over whether the software algorithm = an illegal "defeat device" and whether the EPA will extract a fine for this and how much. In the end, probably a big rap on the knuckles fine, cost of AdBlue retrofit, and life will go on. Maybe VW will be able to highlight the crap fuel they have in USA and get that to change for the benefit of emissions.

Presumably there is no specific fine for the NOX emissions, since the vehicles are legal for passing the EPA test. Gosh we all know loads of cars blow out sulphur dioxide and nobody pays for that. I have seen loads of BMW X5 diesels blow huge clouds of diesel soot - presumably in favour of lowering NOX(??).

The emission standard will specify the various parameters of the fuel.

It comes down to two choices. The first is to use whatever systems or features you have. The other is to add systems to stay within the standard. It will come down to which is cheaper or which will give buyers and regulators confidence.

Either way, a solution for existing vehicles is months or even more than a year away. There is plenty of other stuff and verification that has to take place first.

Also, this does not make the vehicles "dirty". Yes, they exceed the US standard, but the vehicles are still way cleaner than many from other manufacturers selling into the Australian market.

VAG CEO Martin Winterkorn has now resigned due to the emissions scandal.

Volkswagen chief executive Martin Winterkorn resigns — RT Business

more details to come....

Another interesting article to read

Volkswagen's appalling clean diesel scandal, explained - Vox

Sounding more like a storm in a teacup.

Every tested diesel vehicle compliant with euro 6 and EPA Tier2 standard exceed the NOX limit in real world tests - ICCT white paper. Sept 2015.

LNTs (lean NOX traps) seem to perform best in the real world.

Interestingly, Mazda uniquely achieves NOX compliance with only combustion optimisation + EGR and nothing else.

http://www.theicct.org/sites/default...2009152015.pdf

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Originally Posted by bluey

http://www.theicct.org/sites/default...2009152015.pdf

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There is no diminishing the scale of what VW has done, and that has to be addressed. When you look at the actual penetration of diesel vehicles in the US, you see just how much some sections of the media are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Some sections are trying to blame ALL the photochemical smog issue on these "dirty diesels from VW", when the reality is that even if the VW diesels had absolutely no emission controls whatsoever, the photochemical smog issue would not change one bit because of the NOx being emitted from all the gas guzzling petrol engined vehicles operated in the US.

So, what VW has done is shameful, but let's not lose sight of the real issue.

Wow great read Bluey, interesting the VW in this test did well, and Hyundai, Renault and Volvo all showed poor results!

Bottom line is VW have been busted with stealth programming to simply beat the test, and that's going to hurt come EPA fine time.

You are spot on that the US lower cetane fuel will make the emission levels far higher, I had not thought of that. Their big arse pickup trucks are all going adblue ( SCR ) now, so of course they can pass, but the smaller LNT type cars would really suffer on crappy fuel, as the situation proves. I'd expect the yankie golfs etc to either get a new flash update, and suffer for it, or all get retro-fitted adblue catalyst.

It always comes down to temps, and I've always thought an electric heating element for cold starts and periodic forced burns would be a possible solution, but yeah, far easier to just dump extra fuel down the exhaust to ignite in the cannisters on the smaller LNT traps the typical 2.0 and under have. With our better fuel we could probably get away with a LNT at a higher capacity engine size than they could in the USA with that crappy fuel. I'd bet the same test done on our cetane fuel would have much better results.

Mazda and Japan in general have gone a very different way with their DPF's and cats, but believe me they have their own set of issues, such as increasing the oil volume each DPF burn. There is no perfect system as yet, but as that report outlines, 2016 is crunch time for new cars.

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Originally Posted by wai

There is no diminishing the scale of what VW has done, and that has to be addressed. When you look at the actual penetration of diesel vehicles in the US, you see just how much some sections of the media are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Some sections are trying to blame ALL the photochemical smog issue on these "dirty diesels from VW", when the reality is that even if the VW diesels had absolutely no emission controls whatsoever, the photochemical smog issue would not change one bit because of the NOx being emitted from all the gas guzzling petrol engined vehicles operated in the US.

So, what VW has done is shameful, but let's not lose sight of the real issue.

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Yeah 2.0 Golf diesel NOX emissions vs Dodge Viper. Ha!

Does anyone know whether any Aus minimum emissions standards have been breached?
From: https://infrastructure.gov.au/roads/...o_2_Euro_6.pdf a vehicle sold now (a golf 110TDi, Tare mass 1326kg, assuming that is the reference weight) must meet an emmissions standard of 0.235g/km, whereas the US specifies NMOg and NOx in the one parameter (and in mg/mi, but that part is easier)