Discussion - effects of 15k service intervals and stop/start systems on timing chains

[Lucas_R]

I'd like to know everyones thoughts on the effects of 15,000km service intervals and stop/start systems on timing chains (and general engine longevity) with VAG vehicles.

Ive always 'over serviced' my cars by doing 6 monthly oil changes (approx every 5,000-7,500km) with the view to keeping the engine internals as clean as possible, and the concept that a $100 oil change is a lot cheaper than any kind of engine repair due to servicing neglect. Some say that this is a very old fashioned mentality and im wasting my money.

Now my mechanic thinks I am crazy for changing the oil and filter every 6 months, but I disagree with him. Is one of us right? Or are we both wrong?

I watch a channel on Youtube called VAGTechnic who are a couple of very talented Romanian mechanics who have a workshop based in the UK. VAG Technic - YouTube . These guys document a lot of the work they do and offer their knowledge and advice on what they think caused the damage or what could have been done to prevent it. They do 'engine out' jobs so regularly on modern VAG products that they could do it with their eyes shut.

They do a lot of timing chain related repairs and talk regularly about how the Audi/VW service shedule is too long and this increases wear and tear on the timing chains as well as other internal components. Also many people run their car with low oil level which does even more harm.

One thing they discussed recently was that the stop/start function puts additional wear and tear on the timing chain - this is something I had not considered previously. I must admit that I have disabled the start/stop system in every car I have ever owned that has this feature - simply because I do not like it, and its not good for an engine to keep starting and stopping. But had not considered that this could also negatively affect the longevity of the timing chain.

Now we know that manufacturers try to tell us that the start/stop system saves us fuel.....but they neglect to tell you that it will kill your battery faster and that you need a more expensive AGM battery to operate the stop/start system. So any tiny amounts of fuel you save are thrown out the window when you are buying a new $400-600 battery a few years later.

The truth is that the stop/start function was created to save on emissions so that the cars can get better results on fuel economy testing (which are unrealistic and done on a dyno in perfect conditions - so literally impossible to replicate on the road).

With the worlds 'throw away' society getting worse and worse, and cars being very much a part of the 'get a new one when this one wears out' mentality - I believe that the 15,000km service intervals are the absolute bare minimum that is required to keep that car running for the 'lifetime' of the car (approx 8-10 years) so that you buy another new car. After 8-10 years you will start having timing chain issues, gearbox issues etc due to lack of servicing. I believe that if you love your car, or intend to keep it longer than 8-10yrs that you need to service it more regularly to keep it in better health.

Also you should probably disable that gymmicky start/stop system too.......your battery and wallet will thank you in the longer run.

Would love to know your thoughts......

[petemac110]

I'm generally a 9-12 monther, which equates to around 8-10k between changes.

I may start reducing that interval somewhat as I'm regularly running an E20 fuel blend these days, and I'm not sure whether this will have any impacts on the oil at such low ethanol concentrations. As an aside, the tuned ECU absolutely laps this up - ignition timing is healthier, the engine feels much torquier, and it's a nicer thing to drive in the warmer months.

In general, I'm a big fan of more frequent oil changes, particularly on a tuned car that is pushed a little harder than a factory example, but I have absolutely no empirical evidence to support it!

I've also disabled the start-stop from the day after I bought my car. It's now permanently coded-out as a result of the ECU tune. As you say, it's all about emissions and fuel economy testing, and really doesn't make all that big a difference in the real world vs the PITA factor when it kicks in at inopportune times e.g. approaching roundabouts, along with batteries as you've said. Although, it's interesting that many stop-start equipped VAGs come with an EFB battery as standard rather than an AGM.

[Lucas_R]

Good point you made about tuned cars in general and lots of tuned cars these days being on flex fuel - the ethanol can get into the oil cant it. I have experimented a few times with putting about 12-15L of E85 into the tank (on my Lexus IS-F, my Mk7 GTI and again with my Fiesta ST) along with premium unleaded, even though the car was not tuned for the E85 mix. My Lexus and the GTI definitely felt more lively with some E85 in them, but can't say ive noticed much with the little Fiesta.

As for the EFB vs AGM battery comment, id bet my left nut that its nothing more than the fact that an EFB battery is cheaper than an equivalent AGM battery. Dont forget that 99.5% of buyers wouldnt have a clue what EFB or AGM is anyway - its just a battery. Its almost certainly just a way for VAG to save some money in an area where in the vast majority of cases it wont be noticed.

[MIG]

The YouTube channel VAGTechnic you pointed out has made some good videos on the newer TDIs with variable oil pressure pumps (software-controlled oil pressure) and wearing out a whole bunch of stuff prematurely, all in the name of better emissions. I wonder what pollutes more, replacing the whole engine after the warranty or the extra co2 from higher oil pressure

I am all for the lower service intervals, I am doing the VR6 at around 8-9k now, with good oil; will be moving to 5W-40 for summer.
Hope I can get a bit longer life out of the timing chain; I don't believe there is bad logic in the 6-month filter and oil changes.

With the families Touareg's I have disabled the stop-start, the batteries last much longer now, also EFB is such a marketing term, it's just a normal battery you can't top the electrolyte up on.

[Michael_B]

Interesting thoughts, and with the Cupra being my 1st vehicle with Start/Stop, it's something that I also wonder whether it's worth it. I'll probably do the disable thing once I get the other issues sorted.

Re the increased oil changes - the old man used to do it as well, but he would do the filter only every 2nd change - the reasoning being that as the filter does it's job, it gets more efficient at the smaller particles because those holes clog up. Probably more applicable to the older filters when he was a mechanic (60 years ago) but not so much now.

I'll certainly be doing more frequent oil changes, but I also don't drive the car anywhere near 15,000km/yr. I'll be lucky to do 10,000

[brad]

When I had the Gen1 1.8tsi Octavia it got (mainly) 10k oil changes (using either 502.00 or 504.00) after 60k and was running perfectly when sold with 206k. It now has 228k.

The Alltrack Gen3 1,8tsi will be on 10k/12m oil changes.
Stop/start disable cable was the first mod I did.

I do the Pajero Sport every 10k (factory says 15k) and am considering pulling that back to 7.5k.

The 210k km Accord Euro gets every 12 months (maybe) which can be anywhere from 10k-20k and still runs well. Honda says do it every 5k/6months. My kids don't give a toss but will when the motor craps itself and they have to pay for another car.

[jets]

Now we know that manufacturers try to tell us that the start/stop system saves us fuel.....but they neglect to tell you that it will kill your battery faster and that you need a more expensive AGM battery to operate the stop/start system.
.

No one seems to mention starter motors & ring gear.
My friend from western Sydney, now retired motor mechanic said that he has seen a Honda
with less than 80k with a worn out ring gear. The owner had paid $1200 or more for a new starter to be fitted
but there was a noise that my friend recognized as the ring gear. He doesn't know how much he had to pay again
except that it was very expensive.