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Thread: 132 TSI / 1.8L - Loss of torque at low revs after stage 1 tune

  1. #21
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    May 2008
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    The workshop that installed your tune is just a dealer/franchise. Have you spoken to APR Australia or APR USA? APR used to have great customer service which was why they were more expensive than the competition.
    It's up to APR to prove that their tune is as described. You also have consumer protection under the ACCC statutory warranty provisions. The item isn't of merchantable quality or fit for purpose. Personally, I'd keep saying "show me the data relating to my vehicle that proves your item does what it says it does"

    I always find the phrase "I'm retired and have no hobbies. I can deal with this for as long as it takes" to be very persuasive in reaching a favourable outcome.

    APR Australia 03 9123 4459

    APR USA support@goapr.com
    carandimage The place where Off-Topic is On-Topic
    I used to think I was anal-retentive until I started getting involved in car forums

  2. #22
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    May 2008
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    Erskineville, NSW
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    The workshop that installed your tune is just a dealer/franchise. Have you spoken to APR Australia or APR USA? APR used to have great customer service which was why they were more expensive than the competition.
    It's up to APR to prove that their tune is as described. You also have consumer protection under the ACCC statutory warranty provisions. The item isn't of merchantable quality or fit for purpose. Personally, I'd keep saying "show me the data relating to my vehicle that proves your item does what it says it does"

    I always find the phrase "I'm retired and have no hobbies. I can deal with this for as long as it takes" to be very persuasive in reaching a favourable outcome.

    APR Australia 03 9123 4459

    APR USA support@goapr.com
    carandimage The place where Off-Topic is On-Topic
    I used to think I was anal-retentive until I started getting involved in car forums

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2022
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    Brisbane, Queensland
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    Thread Starter
    I tried to find an Australian number for APR but couldn't, so emailed that USA support address. I expect that may take a while so I will try the Australian number. Thanks heaps for that.

    As for asserting my rights maybe my 4th-year-law-student daughter could look into it. For reasons relating to being on a pension I don't cope with conflict well, which is also why I've been dithering so long.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurrayKhodd View Post
    Hi Brad. Refund would be great but when I took it back it was all It's fine/no it's not/yes it is. And now it's you shouldn't have left it so long and I need to pay more money to get it taken back to stock. In hindsight I probably didn't need the tune but I came across a guy with a stage 1 tune on his 1.8 Tiguan and he was evangelical about it. Maybe I'm just hoping that if I take a dyno readout back to them that clearly shows something wrong maybe they'll come to the party. Though I'm finding it tricky to book in to a dyno somewhere. Then again Sharkie's last post has given me something to think about, though looking at the power curve for an apr tune on a gen 3 (the one Lucas's posted above) it still seems like there's something seriously wrong beyond the amount of low rpm power it might have lost based on the different stock tunes.

    Lucas - I don't think I was ever expecting to get rid of turbo lag. My understanding is that on these things the lag is almost entirely throttle and DSG related. It's mostly a problem when you finally see a gap at a roundabout and you jab your foot to the floor and it pauses way longer than if you just eased into it. And just when you've realised the cement truck is now looming too close is when it decides to leap on in. I find it curious that they set these things up like that at the factory. Lots of people complain about it and It's the one thing about the car my partner doesn't like.
    The lag you describe is not turbo or power/torque related, thats pure DSG ... well documented issue and the only way to improve that is to do a DGS (TCU) tune.
    Current: 2023 MY23 T-Roc R Lapiz Blue + Beats Audio + Black pack 2018 MY19 Golf R manual Lapiz Blue + DAP) 2018 MY18 Golf 110TSI (150TSI) Trendline manual White2014 Amarok TSI Red (tuned over 200kw + lots of extras) 2013 Up! manual Red 2017 Polo GTI manual Black Previous VWs and some others ...

  5. #25
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    Jun 2022
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    Guy from APR got me to reset plugs to .6mm. Car running worse, DSG issues. Also just did a trip near Warwick, fuel consumption seems higher.
    One other thing, any web reference I find says my engine is a CJSB, whereas thr APR guy is sure it's a CJSB. Not sure of how to get a definitive answer, or find out what the difference is. At a campsite now, no internet again until Monday.

  6. #26
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    APR think it's a CJSA, which I think is much more common.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MurrayKhodd View Post
    APR think it's a CJSA, which I think is much more common.
    There will be a multiple spots where you can check what engine code you have.

    1) Your owners manual should have a sticker on the 1st page with the engine code as well as any other options your car came with from the factory.

    2) Also your engine will have a white sticker on it (usually on the drivers side upper engine area) which will have the engine code printed on it.

    3) And there should also be a sticker in the boot near the spare wheel somewhere which is essentially the same sticker that should be in your owners manual.

    According to this document, it states that usually any all wheel drive models have the CJSB engine. "Four-wheel-drive vehicles usually have the CJSB engine version." VW Audi 1.8 TSI/TFSI EA888 Gen 1/2/3 Engine specs, problems, reliability, oil, Passat, Jetta, A4
    Last edited by Lucas_R; 02-05-2024 at 10:40 AM.
    2017 Ford Fiesta ST
    2015 Audi SQ5 bi-turbo V6 TDI family hauler

  8. #28
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    Jun 2022
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    Thread Starter
    Hi Lucas

    Fantastic!

    132 TSI / 1.8L - Loss of torque at low revs after stage 1 tune-engine-code-jpg

    Well that solves that. It's definitely a CJSB. Thanks.

    For anyone who might come across this later:

    The CJSB produces a max torque (crankshaft) of 280Nm @ 1350rpm. From my reading it is generally (always?) paired with a 6 speed DSG and AWD.

    The CJSA produces a max torque (crankshaft) of 250Nm @ 1500rpm. From my reading it is generally (always?) paired with a 7 speed DSG and is FWD.

    Just to recap, the APR technician in the US I conversed with was adamant that I have a CJSA, and that is what their tune is for. The guys who did the tune didn't know anything about these different species. They say that in any case they have the same CPU and so it shoudn't matter. They say it can't be an incorrect tune or the vehicle woulldn't accept it, or if it did it wouldn't run.

    Yesterday I took my car for a dyno run with the company that did the tune. Several hours later they called to say that it exceeded the predictions set by APR for all parameters and so nothing could be done to improve it. A robust conversation folllowed and I was thrown out of the library. I asked them to remove the tune and take it back to stock.

    The car now seems to drive much better though not as good as before the tune. I'm still evaluating it. Certainly it seems way better getting away from the lights and is more responsive at low rpm. It also seems to cruise up our steep driveway easier. None of this makes sense when looking at the dyno report, shows way more power at every part of the rev range.

    One thing I'm concerned about is that because they make no distinction between the 1.8L variants my car has been retuned with the stock map for the CJSA. I note that on the graph it's mostly only getting about 120Nm (at the wheels) all through from 1800 to to 3500rpm, which is where I mostly live, and then peaks at 200Nm at over 4000rpm. To reiterate this thing is supposed to hit its maximum torque at 1350rpm!!! Still, with the limited amount of driving I've done so far it seems to be driving a hell of a lot better.

    Possibly my next question is going to be how I can make certain its been retuned properly.

    One other thing for anyone following this at some time, the APR guy reckons the platinum plugs need to be changed every 15,000 to 24,000 kms and oil changed every 6 months or 7,000kms. This would have been a deal-breaker if I had known before getting the tune. On the other hand the tuning mob I went to say they don't recommend this, though it makes me wonder if there might be an impact on longevity. Opinion on the web seems very divided. Some say it really depends on how you drive it with just a stage 1 tune. Something to think about though.

    132 TSI / 1.8L - Loss of torque at low revs after stage 1 tune-dyno_run-jpg

    (Hopefully this appears properly when posted or I'll have to try something else.)

    On the top graph the Stage one tune is shown in blue, though the low rpm parameters, which I was complaining about, are missing. Stock is in red. Lines with square dots are Nm. round dots are kW. I don't know what the bottom graph is supposed to mean but the Y axis for torque looks wrong.

  9. #29
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    Its shame that whoever did the dyno runs only recorded the tuned run from 2,800rpm onwards which makes it impossible to compare the tuned vs stock power and torque in the lower RPM which is what you were interested in. Both runs should start from around 1,500rpm (they cant start from idle) and run all the way to maximum RPM.

    First ive heard of platinum plugs needing to be replaced at 15,000-24,000km intervals - thats seems insane considering the price of the spark plugs and the fact that platinum plugs should last 60,000-80,000km before needing to be replaced.

    As for the oil change intervals, I definitely agree that doing more regular oil changes is definitely a good idea. Most of the issues with modern engines are due to oil change intervals that are too long. Your expensive timing chain and turbo and variable valve timing hardware will thank you for the clean oil.

    As for your query on the Y axis for the torque readout in the bottom graph - the operator (who I can only assume doesnt know how to run the Mainline dyno very well - or just didn't care to set it up correctly) has used "Total Torque" setting which is an inflated figure, whereas just above these lower graphs you can see the "dtorque" setting has been used (201.6nm stock and 293.7nm tuned) and dtorque is a much more accurate reading for measure torque at the wheels on a Mainline dyno. "Total torque" is about double of "dtorque" and this is reflected on that lower graph.
    Last edited by Lucas_R; 02-05-2024 at 04:34 PM.
    2017 Ford Fiesta ST
    2015 Audi SQ5 bi-turbo V6 TDI family hauler

  10. #30
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    Jun 2022
    Location
    Brisbane, Queensland
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    Thread Starter

    Just wondering, why can't the dyno measure below 1500rpm? It seems odd that 2,800 is where the dyno measurement begins and is the exact point at which power kicked in on the road.

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