MK6 Manual vs DSG Discussion Thread

[Maverick]

Agreed, however, I can in 1 fluid motion be in 1st gear and smoothly let out the clutch whilst balancing it with the throttle to provide a smooth and very quick launch. Sure, once moving the DSG changes gears brilliantly, but its at least 10m behind and will not catch up, even over 400m ....

And you can stuff up a gear change so you can't perform that consistently.

Wrong, this is in fact the next generation of DSG boxes and supposedly better than that of the GTI .... it does not matter which car its in .... the technology is the same .... that same 7spd box will eventually make its way throughout the VW ranges where better torque capability is required .... currently Tiguans and T5GP's already have it ....

It's a different gearbox with a different layout with different software with different clutches with a different engine (slow revving diesel) in a different chassis which has a different purpose (ferrying children to school and parking in shopping centres).

Agreed, however a clutch is much cheaper to replace than a DSG box ....

Why would you have to replace the whole DSG box if the clutches are worn out? This would be akin to changing the manual gearbox because the clutch is warn!

I know for a fact that somewhere in the ECU it keeps track of every time the ABS and ESP is engaged in a VW .... it is logical to conclude that it would do the same for the launch control. In this day and age with litigation going the way it is, they would be incredibly stupid not to ....

Every time? How much memory do you think the ECU has? Why would it store that launch control was used?

I don't believe you can make that statement unless you happen to work for VW itself and has access to the records as to exactly how many claims they have approved or not due to launch control. For all we know it is nothing or maybe a few. Trolling through forums certainly won't bring you those stats ....

You cant just make up a statement like that .... LOL

There is nothing to support your claim about VW refusing warranty, there are no posts on any forum about anyone having their claim denied for using launch control (unlike the GTR), there are no posts about anyone having to pay to replace a DSG and no statements from Volkswagen to say that using launch control will invalidate your warranty. So I as I said there are "pretty well ZERO" people that have had warranty claims denied because there is a fair chance that anyone who had warranty denied would either be an enthusiast or would go looking for assistance online if that occurred. And there are no technical bulletins about DSG failures and how to treat them.

[dave_r]

And yes, whilst I do not know if they record any data with regards to launch control, it would logical to assume that they would at least record something .....

LOL, hope it can't record when I fart and thus invalidate my leather from future defects.

This thread really went off the rails.

[Maverick]

Agreed, I have absolutely no knowledge of how many warranty claims have been approved or denied. I do know that VW will certainly be entitled to deny any claim related to launch control abuse, whether they do so or not is up to them.

Really?

You GUARANTEED before that VW WOULD void your warranty for using launch control.

I can guarantee you that if VW can trace the DSG failure back to excessive use (ie abuse) of launch control, they will void your warranty on it .... it even says so in your warranty terms and conditions .... it is a legal document, how about you go away and read it and then come to me for interpretation if you still don't get it ...

For instance, they could show exactly how fast the car was travelling and how hard it braked, how many times it braked and how many times the ESP and ABS kicked in.

The data can't show exactly how fast the car was travelling, nor it's direction of travel, nor can it show detailed information and ESP And ABS data is useless unless you take all the data. Take a look at how much storage you would need to store a useful amount of information and at what frequency you would need to store that. And take into account that the ECU has a limited number of read cycles.

And yes, whilst I do not know if they record any data with regards to launch control, it would logical to assume that they would at least record something .....

It wouldn't be logical at all, the NHTSA has a working group for EDR's and whilst it hasn't been finalised there is nothing in the data recording requirements for launch control data to be stored. EDR's can be remote wiped and plenty of devices will pop up on the market over the next few years to enable you to remote wipe in the event of an accident.

[gareth_oau]

that would be an interesting legal case.

how many people were sat down and asked to read and understand the detailed warranty before they bought the car? an implied warranty is not enforceable unless it is explicitly raised prior to the contract being concluded

[Sharkie]

It certainly never was my intention to get it off topic, the gist of my original posts was merely around the inability of motoring journalists to be consistent when testing manual cars. As usual you then get all the people who feel they have to defend their purchasing decision or mindset to step in and send the topic off on a tangent ..... very little open mindedness on this forum. I realise it’s a VW forum (and I’m going for #8 VW now and #1 Porsche in Feb), but I’m a car enthusiast 1st and not blinded to a car or a brand’s less good points ….

Motor magazine has a history of being inconsistent when testing manual cars. Like any normal human being they get better at it with more familiarity with the said car. Whilst this is a normal trait for any person, it can be expected of motoring journalists to be good enough at what they do that they do not need a lengthy familiarisation period.

Take their recent long term GTI manual for instance as an example. Near the end of 6 months with it they managed to do 6.87s 0-100km/h and claimed it was well run in ….. Whilst a well run in car is quicker than a newbie it is the increased familiarity that comes over time that makes up the largest portion of the improvement.

So, in any test or comparison test, a manual car will always be disadvantaged, not only against the DSGs and automatics out there, but even against its manual peers who have had the time with the journos to breed the familiarity required to get decent results.

So any tuner IMO would be smart to send a clutch pedalless car with launch control to performance testing by the journos, as they then would be able to achieve consistent times …. And be able to report those times in fairness to the product to the public.

For day to day driving it is another story however ….

[Sharkie]

that would be an interesting legal case.

how many people were sat down and asked to read and understand the detailed warranty before they bought the car? an implied warranty is not enforceable unless it is explicitly raised prior to the contract being concluded

Not in getting into express v implied warranties here, I'm sure VW has better legal experts than us out here and I'd find it hard to believe that any warranty denial challenge (express or implied) would stand up in court if abuse was involved .... and VWs legal might and wealth brought with it. But then what would I know .... my 1 law degree is 15yrs old and not from Australia and the other from Australia is merely a few months old .... and I've spent the better part of the last 15 yrs either trying to enforce contracts, service agreements & warranties from a business customer perspective or trying to deny contract, service agreement & warranty claims & challenges from a supplier perspective. There are almost no lenghts a supplier won't go to, to get out of a liability thats going to cost them money if they in any way or form can blame it on the customer .....

[Johnson4]

I bought a manual GTI, and would have to say the gearshift is the most disappointing thing with the car (a minor disappointment, not a game-changer, mind you).

The best shift I've ever owned was in an MX-5 -- very short, very clicky -- and reviews I'd read said this was similar. However, it's really not -- it's quite long for a sports car, and there's a bit of play in the gate. Plus, there's absolutely no "click" when you drive the gear home, which I really miss. I'm guessing there's no physical gate under the boot at all.

I also reckon 6 gears is just too many to really enjoy manual shifting... the car's always asking me to go higher than I want, and I hate to disappoint (!). 5 gears is much easier to feel your way through... maybe I'll get used to it eventually.

If I was buying again, I'd get the DSG.

[cameronp]

If I was buying again, I'd get the DSG.

I've owned a car with a six-speed manual before and thought it felt about the right number of gears - sixth was nice for cruising quietly on the freeway. While I haven't driven a manual GTI, I did notice that the manual gearbox in the 103TDI was disappointing - smooth but as you said, quite a bit of play when it's in gear.

I bought a DSG Golf having never owned an 'automatic' before. It's much better than any other four-cylinder auto I've driven, but even after a few months it just feels ... wrong to be driving a car without a clutch pedal. Maybe I'll get used to it eventually.

[hooba]

I bought a manual GTI, and would have to say the gearshift is the most disappointing thing with the car (a minor disappointment, not a game-changer, mind you).

The best shift I've ever owned was in an MX-5 -- very short, very clicky -- and reviews I'd read said this was similar. However, it's really not -- it's quite long for a sports car, and there's a bit of play in the gate. Plus, there's absolutely no "click" when you drive the gear home, which I really miss. I'm guessing there's no physical gate under the boot at all.

I also reckon 6 gears is just too many to really enjoy manual shifting... the car's always asking me to go higher than I want, and I hate to disappoint (!). 5 gears is much easier to feel your way through... maybe I'll get used to it eventually.

If I was buying again, I'd get the DSG.

The worst part of having owned an MX-5 is having experienced a gear shift that you will use as the benchmark for all future manual cars. The MX-5 gear shift is sweet, and I remember an old car nut telling me that his long gone Formula Ford was the only gear shift that ever came close.

I agree with you that it can feel like there are too many gears, I've adjusted by usually selecting a higher gear than I normally would, and simply rowing it up into 6th and then surfing the torque wave from there. I've also got a MKV with DSG, and have no regrets in getting my GTI in a manual (however I agree there is plenty of room for improvement in the box).

[bjays76gti]

Theres nothing wrong with the manual shift in the mk6, gears are where they should be, ratio's are evenly spaced and it's not about what other cars you've driven it's about the differance between 1 manufacturers auto and manual differances, the dsg is great, very smooth quick shifts, oh and the blip on downshifts and the popping is awesome, but for all out fun, and every day non traffic driveability i'm stoked with the manual, I especially love at 80km/h in 3rd, planting the throttle and getting wheelspin, I bet you don't get that in the auto!!!