GTI running too cool?

[Stuwey]

In traffic, my car runs at a steady 90C. Oil temp 180-210F.

Lately however, if I'm belting along the freeway at 110kmh late at night when it's really cold then the coolant temp drops away, and shortly after the oil temp too.

I'm thinking thermostat staying open?

Where exactly is the thermostat on these??



Cheers

[Lito]

There is a housing that comes of the block under the intake manifold which the thermostat sits in. My car used to take ages to come up to temp and the temp would drop when cruising in a cold night, fitted a new thermostat and it's much better. Can be a bitch to change though, I would recommend taking the IM of for easier access, some people also recommend removing the alternator for more clearance but you can remove the t-stat with the alt in place, just a bit more fiddly

[nightphotographer]

Before touching anything big I'd look at your coolant temperature sensor (CTS) they're about $15 for a new one and are quiet common failures (or were on the MK4 platform anyway - I went through 2 on my MK4) - but that created similar problems - it'd take 15 mins of driving to get anywhere near 90 degrees etc. I dunno - see what Gav says :P

[Martin]

Yeah, sensor or thermostat

Check how much heat you can get out of the heater when at 90 degrees and again when running cooler temperatures
If the heater can't produce hot air then it's a good indication that the thermostat is the problem

[Stuwey]

If it were just the sensor then the oil temp would remain higher.

With the coolant coming down so low, it cools the oil too much through the heat exchange.

My thoughts anyway!

<edit> the heater cools off, too. So yeah, I'm definitely thinking t'stat. I just have to find it and get one I guess!

[Martin]

Good point about the oil

So you need a thermostat - may as well take the opportunity to change the anti freeze at the same time

[h100vw]

If you do the stat, I reckon you should prepare yourself with a spare plastic pipe. Just on the off chance that you break it. Ball ended allen key socket is a winner for doing these in situ without pulling the alternator or manifold off.

Temp sensors not so bad on these, I'd look at the measuring blocks with VCDS if you can though. soon see if its cooling off in the breeze.

Gavin

[Stuwey]

If you do the stat, I reckon you should prepare yourself with a spare plastic pipe. Just on the off chance that you break it.

Gavin

Do you think the new 034 billet housing is worthwhile then?

Metal Thermostat Housing, Audi/Volkswagen 06A 1.8T Transverse, Aluminum - 034Motorsport | Performance Parts for Audi, Porsche, and Volkswagen (http://store.034motorsport.com/034motorsport-06a-18t-billet-aluminum-metal-thermostat-housing-coolant-flange-audi-volkswagen-06a121121c.html)

[h100vw]

Do you think the new 034 billet housing is worthwhile then?

Metal Thermostat Housing, Audi/Volkswagen 06A 1.8T Transverse, Aluminum - 034Motorsport | Performance Parts for Audi, Porsche, and Volkswagen (http://store.034motorsport.com/034motorsport-06a-18t-billet-aluminum-metal-thermostat-housing-coolant-flange-audi-volkswagen-06a121121c.html)

I like the look of it but tbh I wouldn't spend $100 odd plus shipping for it. A new std one would last for ages if you did have to replace it. For a fraction of the cost.

I keep one in my cupboard just in case, I reckon it was under $30.

Gavin

[h100vw]

Do you think the new 034 billet housing is worthwhile then?

Metal Thermostat Housing, Audi/Volkswagen 06A 1.8T Transverse, Aluminum - 034Motorsport | Performance Parts for Audi, Porsche, and Volkswagen (http://store.034motorsport.com/034motorsport-06a-18t-billet-aluminum-metal-thermostat-housing-coolant-flange-audi-volkswagen-06a121121c.html)

I like the look of it but tbh I wouldn't spend $100 odd plus shipping for it. A new std one would last for ages if you did have to replace it. For a fraction of the cost.

I keep one in my cupboard just in case, I reckon it was under $30.

Gavin

[louis19]

I think I'm having the same issue as stated above. What would you guys call running "too cool"? My GTI cruising along in the current weather at night (12-15 Celsius) is sitting on 70 degrees as opposed to 90 degrees when around town at lights or during the day. I must admit it does seem like it takes a fair while to warm up to 90 degrees (probably 10-15 mins on average) during the day when it's warming aswell. Is running at 70 degrees at night and the time it take to warm up an issue worth worrying about or should it be corrected? And if so, should I first look at the sensor mentioned above or just go straight for the thermostat?

Thanks!

[Stuwey]

Definitely too cool there mate. Ideally, water should be 90C ad the oil should be around 95C before giving it a real hard time.

I'm not gonna scan anything... Straight to the thermostat for me. Next weekends job!

[louis19]

Definitely too cool there mate. Ideally, water should be 90C ad the oil should be around 95C before giving it a real hard time.

I'm not gonna scan anything... Straight to the thermostat for me. Next weekends job!

Thanks mate! I thought it was odd. How quickly should the car warm up in normal driving conditions? Surely my 10-15 mins is to long aswell. By the sounds of it replacing the thermostat is the best way to go for me aswell? How are you guys reading the oil temp? I've only got the 1 gauge up the top next to fuel which I presume is the water temp?

Also where's the best spot to get a new thermostat and how much I'm looking at price wise?

Sorry for for all the ?'s!


Edit: I now strongly believe it is the thermostat as I drove the car and got it to the normal 90 degrees this morning then just cruised along when it was 15 degrees outside and within 1-2 mins it had already dropped back to 70-75 degrees so I can only assume it is staying open.

[h100vw]

Thanks mate! I thought it was odd. How quickly should the car warm up in normal driving conditions? Surely my 10-15 mins is to long aswell. By the sounds of it replacing the thermostat is the best way to go for me aswell? How are you guys reading the oil temp? I've only got the 1 gauge up the top next to fuel which I presume is the water temp?

Also where's the best spot to get a new thermostat and how much I'm looking at price wise?

Sorry for for all the ?'s!


Edit: I now strongly believe it is the thermostat as I drove the car and got it to the normal 90 degrees this morning then just cruised along when it was 15 degrees outside and within 1-2 mins it had already dropped back to 70-75 degrees so I can only assume it is staying open.

You can check the temp sensor with VCDS, compare the ECU input with the dash. Does sound to be 100% the stat to me though. Are you still running pink coolant?

Gavin

[louis19]

You can check the temp sensor with VCDS, compare the ECU input with the dash. Does sound to be 100% the stat to me though. Are you still running pink coolant?

Gavin

Hi Gav, yes I am still running the Pink coolant. Sorry for the noob question, what's the VCDS and how do I compare the ECU input on the dash?

Should the car sit at the optimal 90C even when it's cold outside or is it normal that it's sitting at 70C given the fact that the air would be a contributing factor?

Thanks mate :)

[h100vw]

Hi Gav, yes I am still running the Pink coolant. Sorry for the noob question, what's the VCDS and how do I compare the ECU input on the dash?

Should the car sit at the optimal 90C even when it's cold outside or is it normal that it's sitting at 70C given the fact that the air would be a contributing factor?

Thanks mate :)

LOL you need to get with the program! :cookie: VCDS is the one thing you need in your life after buying a VW.

It's a diagnostic lead and software that allows you to look at the fault codes in controllers in your car. So you can look at live data in the ECU and the instruments and see if they agree or not.

The needle movement is damped to a degree so that it shows 90 unless there's a big drama coming. Once to temp, either airflow from driving or the fans will keep the temp steady.

Outside temps on a cold day would mean the thermostat would restrict flow a little to get more heat in the coolant and open up more on a hot day to increase flow.

Gavin

[Swainey32]

Sounds like I have the same issue as well, I just assumed cold weather meant cold everything haha
Where should I buy a thermostat for my mk4 Gav?

[nat225]

Answers (well almost) to all modern VW Audi cars

Ross-Tech: Home (http://www.ross-tech.com/)

Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk

[h100vw]

Sounds like I have the same issue as well, I just assumed cold weather meant cold everything haha
Where should I buy a thermostat for my mk4 Gav?

The stat should regulate the temp all year round, the gauge shouldn't move unless something is broken.

So if you aren't getting to temp then it's likely a problem. If it's over heating, a broken water pump would be on my investigation list.

Gavin

Ref your PM, I had forgotten too #airhead :D

[Swainey32]

The stat should regulate the temp all year round, the gauge shouldn't move unless something is broken.

So if you aren't getting to temp then it's likely a problem. If it's over heating, a broken water pump would be on my investigation list.

Gavin

Ref your PM, I had forgotten too #airhead :D

Ok definitely need one, it never gets to 90 anymore, max 70ish. Will track one down.

Haha ok good, that makes me less worried, I was thinking oh no I hope he isnt waiting and getting angry with me haha

[louis19]

Can anyone recommend a good place to buy one and what sort of price I'm looking at for a replacment. Just to clarify, on a cold night or morning (around 10-12 celcius) the car should still be sitting at 90C? It seems like sitting on 70C when driving with the air temps being that low and passing thought the engine bay and cooling the engine would be normal or am I way off?

[Swainey32]

found heaps on ebay from uk for cheap

[h100vw]

Can anyone recommend a good place to buy one and what sort of price I'm looking at for a replacment. Just to clarify, on a cold night or morning (around 10-12 celcius) the car should still be sitting at 90C? It seems like sitting on 70C when driving with the air temps being that low and passing thought the engine bay and cooling the engine would be normal or am I way off?

Should always be 90 degrees. The stat regulates the flow to make this happen. If the water gets hot, it opens prompting flow through the radiator and getting it cooled more and vice versa.

Gavin

[louis19]

Should always be 90 degrees. The stat regulates the flow to make this happen. If the water gets hot, it opens prompting flow through the radiator and getting it cooled more and vice versa.

Gavin

Awesome thanks for the info mate! Looks like its time to replace the stat then. Anyone know where I can find a DIY tutorial to do this? Would VW stock the thermostat?

[h100vw]

Awesome thanks for the info mate! Looks like its time to replace the stat then. Anyone know where I can find a DIY tutorial to do this? Would VW stock the thermostat?

They would, be pricey from there though. Have a look around the internet first.

Gavin

[louis19]

Is one like this suitable? Or is there a particular make or brand that is good to try and go for.
Other then the thermostat itself is the only other thing I will need is coolant mixture?

Facet Thermostat Volkswagen Polo 1 8 GTI 2001 2009 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261448354908?redirect=mobile)

Thanks!

[h100vw]

Is one like this suitable? Or is there a particular make or brand that is good to try and go for.
Other then the thermostat itself is the only other thing I will need is coolant mixture?

Facet Thermostat Volkswagen Polo 1 8 GTI 2001 2009 | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261448354908?redirect=mobile)

Thanks!

I consider that pricey but it is the right one. Note what I said to Stuwey early on about the plastic housing it sits behind.

Gavin

[louis19]

What would you consider a good price? Searching everywhere I can find, and the one I linked above is about the standard price on eBay, there's others cheaper internationally but are charging the remaining difference in postage so it's effectively the same price. On top of the thermostat I'm going to need new coolant correct? And if possible, an extra plastic casing? Any ideas what the casing is actually called so I can try and find one?


Thanks!

[h100vw]

What would you consider a good price? Searching everywhere I can find, and the one I linked above is about the standard price on eBay, there's others cheaper internationally but are charging the remaining difference in postage so it's effectively the same price. On top of the thermostat I'm going to need new coolant correct? And if possible, an extra plastic casing? Any ideas what the casing is actually called so I can try and find one?


Thanks!

FOR Audi VW Jetta 4 Cylinder 1 8 2 0 Thermostat Housing Cover Water Outlet Pipe | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/for-Audi-VW-Jetta-4-Cylinder-1-8-2-0-Thermostat-Housing-Cover-Water-Outlet-Pipe-/310764798794?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AVolkswagen&hash=item485b06834a&_uhb=1)

I have one at home. Just when you are battling with it, there's a slight danger of breaking it. Usually on a Saturday afternoon. No need to buy one every time, if you break yours, you can have mine and replace it.

Thermostat 87C VW Golf Beetle Jetta Passat Audi A4 TT | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Thermostat-87C-VW-Golf-Beetle-Jetta-Passat-Audi-A4-TT-/291124716910?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43c862a56e&_uhb=1)

vw golf thermostat | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=vw+golf+thermostat&_sop=15)

You could reuse the coolant and just top up what you lose. I find the problem with old coolant is how to dispose of it.

Warm the engine and drop it out of the radiator drain on the passenger side. Use some G12.

Gavin

[louis19]

FOR Audi VW Jetta 4 Cylinder 1 8 2 0 Thermostat Housing Cover Water Outlet Pipe | eBay (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/705-53470-19255-0/1?campid=5336618722&toolid=10001&mpre=http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/for-Audi-VW-Jetta-4-Cylinder-1-8-2-0-Thermostat-Housing-Cover-Water-Outlet-Pipe-/310764798794?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Make%3AVolkswagen&hash=item485b06834a&_uhb=1)

I have one at home. Just when you are battling with it, there's a slight danger of breaking it. Usually on a Saturday afternoon. No need to buy one every time, if you break yours, you can have mine and replace it.

Thermostat 87C VW Golf Beetle Jetta Passat Audi A4 TT | eBay (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/705-53470-19255-0/1?campid=5336618722&toolid=10001&mpre=http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Thermostat-87C-VW-Golf-Beetle-Jetta-Passat-Audi-A4-TT-/291124716910?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43c862a56e&_uhb=1)

vw golf thermostat | eBay (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/705-53470-19255-0/1?campid=5336618722&toolid=10001&mpre=http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=vw+golf+thermostat&_sop=15)

You could reuse the coolant and just top up what you lose. I find the problem with old coolant is how to dispose of it.

Warm the engine and drop it out of the radiator drain on the passenger side. Use some G12.

Gavin

Awesome thanks for the links and info Gav! :)

[louis19]

Is there anyone around the Gold Coast region that would be able to give me a hand swapping over my new thermostat once it arrives? I haven't ordered the plastic housing in the hopes I can get it done without breaking it so I thought I would see if there's someone here that lives near by and might be a bit more experienced to help me :)

Thanks!

[h100vw]

Is there anyone around the Gold Coast region that would be able to give me a hand swapping over my new thermostat once it arrives? I haven't ordered the plastic housing in the hopes I can get it done without breaking it so I thought I would see if there's someone here that lives near by and might be a bit more experienced to help me :)

Thanks!

I have a couple of housing's if you break yours. Seriously it's not hard. You should have some ball ended allen keys, preferably ones you can use with a ratchet handle.

The bolts are 10mm heads but have 5mm allen keys in them too.

Access is the worst aspect of the job. If you have the Secondary air pump still on the car that will need moving but still shouldn't be a major drama.

Happy to provide moral support if you need it.

Gavin

[louis19]

Thanks for the info Gav. The moral support always helps too haha.

A couple posts back you linked the thermostat and I noticed it doesn't have the polo on the listing, but I assume it still the correct one for our cars?

Thanks!

[h100vw]

Thanks for the info Gav. The moral support always helps too haha.

A couple posts back you linked the thermostat and I noticed it doesn't have the polo on the listing, but I assume it still the correct one for our cars?

Thanks!

They are all the same in the 1.8Ts.

Gavin

[louis19]

Thanks Gav, have one on the way

[Stuwey]

Gonna get around to doing the thermostat this weekend, and give it a new coolant temp sensor while i'm at it.


Where do i find this exactly?

[Stuwey]

...a new coolant temp sensor while i'm at it. Where do i find this exactly?



Anyone?

[Lito]

Anyone?

Should be on the passenger side of the head. There is a plastic housing that's has like 3 coolant hoses coming of it.

27012012861.jpg Photo by richymk2 | Photobucket (http://s487.photobucket.com/user/richymk2/media/27012012861.jpg.html)

[JustCruisn]

Don't forget the coolant.
About $30 at Repco for 5litres pre mix, show your RACQ card to get a discount.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2014/07/342301thumb-1.jpg
Or go to the dealer and get the VW stuff and mix with demineralised water.

[Stuwey]

Two fresh G13 bottles from VW at the ready!

[louis19]

Below is a weird problem I had started experiencing in the last couple days. I also noticed the SAI pump not coming on when starting first thing in the morning anymore. Is this likely to be a problem related to my coolant temp sensor or my thermostat? I haven't changed my thermostat but it arrived a couple days ago. Haven't changed one before and feeling a bit lost haha

Gti Polo Problem: Gti Polo Problem - YouTube (http://youtu.be/FQD1MlJW-SM)

[h100vw]

Below is a weird problem I had started experiencing in the last couple days. I also noticed the SAI pump not coming on when starting first thing in the morning anymore. Is this likely to be a problem related to my coolant temp sensor or my thermostat? I haven't changed my thermostat but it arrived a couple days ago. Haven't changed one before and feeling a bit lost haha

Gti Polo Problem: Gti Polo Problem - YouTube (http://youtu.be/FQD1MlJW-SM)

Are you hearing the relay click in the fusebox? It could have failed all of a sudden? Although, if that had happened I'd expect a fault light to come on for incorrect flow.

Gavin

[louis19]

Are you hearing the relay click in the fusebox? It could have failed all of a sudden? Although, if that had happened I'd expect a fault light to come on for incorrect flow.

Gavin

No I no longer hear the relay click, I used to start it up when cold and could hear the SAI pump distinctly due to how low it is and also afterwards hear the relay click but now I don't hear either noise.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned my car not getting to optimal temperature when cold and taking way to long to warm up, well now I no longer have those two issues. The car gets to optimal temperature even in cold weather and gets there in the correct time now but unfortunately have adopted the problem above.

Any ideas as to what it could be? The car drives perfect without any fault lights, but thought I'd check if this is normal?

[louis19]

Found this thread which describes my problem perfectly:

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f127/temperature-sensor-problem-87829-2.html

Is it worth going ahead and replacing my temp sensor? Only issue is if there's a code that needs resetting, I don't have the equipment to do so

Edit: If I do need a new temp sensor, Vw wants $87 for one so if there's a cheaper option elsewhere any links would be appreciated :)

[Stuwey]

Whilst my hands are now hacked to shreds, my temp gauge is stable. Did the temp sender too, just to be sure.


Thanks for your help guys!

[h100vw]

Found this thread which describes my problem perfectly:

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f127/temperature-sensor-problem-87829-2.html

Is it worth going ahead and replacing my temp sensor? Only issue is if there's a code that needs resetting, I don't have the equipment to do so

Edit: If I do need a new temp sensor, Vw wants $87 for one so if there's a cheaper option elsewhere any links would be appreciated :)

Don't chase problems without diagnosis, it always costs more.

If your dash displays the temp, you need to use VCDS to check the input to the ECU. If that's ok, then there's no need for spending $87 on the sender.

Plenty of cheaper sensosrs on the internet, look for green ones. Don't expect it to be the fix though, if you haven't proved it's faulty.

Gavin

[louis19]

Don't chase problems without diagnosis, it always costs more.

If your dash displays the temp, you need to use VCDS to check the input to the ECU. If that's ok, then there's no need for spending $87 on the sender.

Plenty of cheaper sensosrs on the internet, look for green ones. Don't expect it to be the fix though, if you haven't proved it's faulty.

Gavin

Good point, thanks Gav.

Does anyone around the Gold Coast Region have a VCDS that could hook it up to my polo and see if anything comes up?

[Stuwey]

Just an FYI, mine was a grey 2-pin sensor.

[hoi polloi]

Any ideas as to what it could be? The car drives perfect without any fault lights, but thought I'd check if this is normal?

I'd start with relay as you're not hearing it actuate anymore... Then fuses??.

[louis19]

I'd start with relay as you're not hearing it actuate anymore... Then fuses??.

I ended up just disconnecting the battery and reconnecting as a easy quick test and it instantly started running the SAI pump again when cool and can hear the relays clicking again. However it has now gone back to the not reaching optimal temperature and dropping temp on the highway etc. Is the gti polo like other models where disconnected the battery and reconnecting resets the ECU and resets codes or can that only be done with the VCDS?

[louis19]

Hey guys sorry for the newbie question (I have never changed a thermostat before). Is either of these spots the correct location for the thermostat housing? It was the only one two spots that I could see that it could be but correct me if I'm wrong. First pic is connecting directly to the radiator in front of the battery and the other is next to the air filter under a whole heap of other tubes connecting to the side of the engine. (that's the one I thought it would be as it looks like a pain to get too and has the plastic hosing everyone is talking about)

Also is aftermarket brands ok to use for coolant such as ones from Supercheapauto permitting you mix it correctly, only use that brand and don't mix, and it's a G12+ coolant?

Thanks :)

[louis19]

Anyone?

[h100vw]

Anyone?

It's behind the alternator mate. I can't tell if that's your second picture though.

Gavin

[louis19]

Thanks Gav, gauging by that answer I was way off haha!

[louis19]

Hey Fellas,

Finally got the Vag com to work tonight and once I scanned got this result back. I was wondering though does this mean I should go directly for the CTS replacement or could it still be the thermostat? Vw wanted nearly $90 when I called last to enquire about the price of the CTS so if it's not that I don't want to go and buy one obviously :) What would you guys recommend I should do?

[h100vw]

You don't have to buy from VW. Imparts, HSY etc do them too. NEW Audi VW Green Coolant Temperature Sensor Water Temp Switch TS477 059919501A | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/like/151058525640?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=107)

[louis19]

Had an attempt at replacing my thermostat this weekend. Got everything apart, had the SAI pump out and coolant drained. Got the top bolt out of the thermostat housing and then could not for the life of me get the other bottom bolt out. After much frustration I thought I would call around to see the cost of someone else replacing it but after hearing it's around $300-400 I think I'll give it another shot myself!

The biggest issue seemed to be the surrounding hoses which were painful to get off without the correct tool (clamp remover)
which I'm gonna buy this week.

Any other suggestions to make this job any easier apart from removing the hoses?

Thanks guys!

[Stuwey]

I left the hoses complete, and ran multiple extensions on a 1/4" ratchet down from the top. Once pushed to the side, i worked from beneath the car to fit the new 'stat and sit the o-ring and housing back in place. Bottom bolt whist i was underneath, top bolt from the top. Super-glue the bolt into your socket and poke it down that way.

Took me about 2 hours, and I had a hoist. I don't envy anyone doing it on the ground.

I now have a scar on the back on my left wrist to remind me!

[louis19]

I left the hoses complete, and ran multiple extensions on a 1/4" ratchet down from the top. Once pushed to the side, i worked from beneath the car to fit the new 'stat and sit the o-ring and housing back in place. Bottom bolt whist i was underneath, top bolt from the top. Super-glue the bolt into your socket and poke it down that way.

Took me about 2 hours, and I had a hoist. I don't envy anyone doing it on the ground.

I now have a scar on the back on my left wrist to remind me!

Unfortunately I'll be doing it all from above. To me the easiest way looks to be to take of the smaller hose because which will at least give me access to take the other bolt out. Then I'll have to somehow try and get the stat and new o ring in and get it all back together.

Does anyone know where I can find a pair of the clamp pliers?

[h100vw]

hose clamp pliers | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0 .Xhose+clamp+pliers&_nkw=hose+clamp+pliers&_sacat=0&_from=R40)

I did mine from above, on the ground on the A3 years back. I don't recall it being a big deal. 1/4 drive set, ball ended allens keys and a lifetime working on Helicopters and aeroplanes may have helped? :D The right combination of tools is always a plus. Sorry I can't be more helpful. :(

[louis19]

Thanks Gav, like you warned me it's just a matter of space. It doesn't appear to be an overly taxing job it's just a matter of getting that last bolt out and then getting it back together again with limited room. If I can remove the one hose that's in my way (couldn't do it with just normal pliers) then I'm sure that will give me enough room to do what I need to.

Is there anywhere locally that might have the pliers? Supercheapauto? Total Tools?

I'm hoping my years of working on R/C cars with tiny little pieces will be of some help. We will find out this weekend I guess!

[h100vw]

Vise grips better than pliers IMO, unless you have really long pliers

[louis19]

I was going to try and find some of the clamp removing pliers locally. I've seen some fairly long ones that look like they would work well. I used to have a pair and they were so easy to use and never slipped off the clamps.

[louis19]

Also Gav, your inbox is full. Tried to send you a PM but can't till you empty it :)

[h100vw]

email me optimumcode at gmail.com My inbox is constantly full and I can't answer from my phone.

Gavin