Old Man Emu lift kit.

[Transporter]

Any member here fitted one to his Amarok?

I'm installing the ARB bull bar to my Rok and am looking to lift the suspension and firm the ride a bit. There are quite a few options there. The ARB has the Old Man Emu (OME) kit that is well priced and well proven in AU. So, I'm interested to hear form others who may have the experience with the OMU, but also with the other offerings out there.

Here is the link to an Amarok with some ARB gear fitted, take a note his front bumper that has the Warn winch fitted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVVVmn1LqOg&feature=player_embedded

[Tornado_ALIVE]

Hi Transporter. I would not bother with OME. They are just King Springs (not too bad but known to sag) and Munro shocks which have been known to fail along with most other brands in rough terrain including OEM. Not sure what leafs they use but have not heard positive reviews from them either.

Talk to bauerco from the Ausamarok forum (forum sponsor Net 4x4) and he can sort you out with a set of Dobinson coils / leafs and Bilstien B6 shocks. Much better package and he will sort you out with a price that will be hard for even cheap kits to beat.

FYI, a little info on the difference between the Bilstien and othr shocks.


FYI, the difference between Bilstein B6 Off Roads and OEM (Seikel Dessert, OME, TJM, Pedders are simular to the OEM)

Bilstein are made from nodular iron rather than pressed steel plate, the main shock tube is a machined tube instead of an extruded tube & the strut shaft is quite substantially thicker. All round much heavier duty unit & completely rebuildable.

A picture speaks a 1000 words.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2014/02/DSC03438_zps0c8a80ce-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2014/02/DSC03439_zps4ec13169-1.jpg

[Transporter]

Thanks for the tips Tornado_ALIVE. I will certainly look into other offerings as well. Do you know if the Bilstein strut has extended travel?

[gavs]

Hi Transporter. I would not bother with OME. They are just King Springs (not too bad but known to sag) and Munro shocks which have been known to fail along with most other brands in rough terrain including OEM. Not sure what leafs they use but have not heard positive reviews from them either.

Talk to bauerco from the Ausamarok forum (forum sponsor Net 4x4) and he can sort you out with a set of Dobinson coils / leafs and Bilstien B6 shocks. Much better package and he will sort you out with a price that will be hard for even cheap kits to beat.

FYI, a little info on the difference between the Bilstien and othr shocks.

Yeah, righto mate.... :):)

[Tornado_ALIVE]

Thanks for the tips Tornado_ALIVE. I will certainly look into other offerings as well. Do you know if the Bilstein strut has extended travel?

None of the aftermarket struts do, so unfortunatly you loose a little travel but hey, the lockers in the back help when you lift a leg.

FYI, they dont offer the extra travel because if they do the CV's will have a very short life.

[gavs]

Again I'll have to pull you up on that Tornado_ALIVE, are you 100% sure about what you're saying there?

[Tornado_ALIVE]

What part/s are you concerned about???

[Transporter]

The OME has extended travel. ;)

[Tornado_ALIVE]

For Amarok??? I am repeating what I have been told about them from others through their experiences. BTW, I am talking struts, not rear shocks. If the struts have extended travel, I would stay away from them as it wont be kind on the CVs. That said, I would not bother as the quality of ride is not up to the Billies and several have failed at the top of the strut shaft and also the arms that come around the CV (folding sideways, snapping CV's)

[Tornado_ALIVE]

Someone who has fitted OME struts and measured the down travel........... no increase in down travel ;)


Basically whatever you gain in lift, you lose in downwards travel. Thank goodness for traction control.

Front suspension downwards travel - help please? (http://www.ausamarok.com.au/forum/showthread.php/1646-Front-suspension-downwards-travel-help-please)

[Tornado_ALIVE]

OME (King springs) only give a 20mm lift (with bar and winch accounted for). My Dobinson springs gave me 40 to 45mm. I have not measured my down travel but none of us guys who have fitted this combination have been troubled. I am guessing we still have about 45mm

From ARB


Just as a follow up, I was speaking with our head OME engineer and he reminded me that the other reason for the theoretically small lift height is due to the limited down-travel that VW have built into their system. If you lift the car to it's maximum, drivable height (which in south america, they're doing to 50mm at the front) you have no down travel on your wheels, which means that if you break traction over a hole in a track or a wheel rut, that wheel gives you no traction and will just spin freely. Unfortunately, there is no fix for this like on other cars, by just chucking in an air locker, VW welded the crownwheel in the front diff.

Another scenario is that you will have other ride issues in that in some corners, you will potentially be lifting your inside front tyre. You're also more likely to get airborne too at the front end.

By all means, all of you interested in suspension upgrades, investigate and weigh up your options in regards to what's out there, how much your willing to spend and what you're using the car for. If it's just getting lifted for looks, then yeah, go high but risk the CV destruction. Otherwise, sometimes a more conservative option can be a better option when you hit the hard stuff.

Hopefully that provides you guys with a bit of insight and I wasn't too biased

[Transporter]

Someone who has fitted OME struts and measured the down travel........... no increase in down travel ;)

According to ARB the OME strut has a 12mm longer stroke. Not much but it has actually longer stroke than the original struts. Also they have 3 years warranty. Their struts and shocks are made by Monroe 6 km from my home. The factory has 3 different production lines, the OME are made to a different standards than Monroe.

It will be a few months before I upgrade the suspension, so plenty of time to check what is the best option for me. :)

[Tornado_ALIVE]

Hi Transporter, talk to the guys on the Ausamarok forum who have experience in fitting and using these shocks in anger. There experience is that they are not getting any additional drop. I was under the impression that no drop was added to OME Amarok struts. May be other vehicle's, but for not the Roks.

Note also, they have seen failures with the top nut snapping of on several Amaroks as well as the shock base folding, snapping CV's. Your call but the Billies are a MUCH more robust unit. See the photo on page 1. Even more noticeable in the flesh. TJM, revised their shocks after simular failures but I am not convinced (doubt) they are an equal to the Billies yet. Furthermore, only the Billes from this group are rebuildable.



Old TJM strut

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2014/02/9ce015c2-1.jpg





Revised TJM strut

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2014/02/927F697886F247B78A6D93CD9176970A27360000-1.jpg





Outback Armour

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2014/02/75640D772A7043C2A8045780E6042CE927360000-1.jpg

[Transporter]

It's all good info Tornado_ALIVE, thanks for posting that.
I will check the Pedders upgrade as well, since this is for me the most economical choice, though I never buy on price only and always appreciate a good product even if it's not visible. :)

The suspension travel and stiffness is important for me, I will measure the stock suspension travel on mine, jackng the car up tomorrow.
So far, before the ARB bull bar went on the distance from the edge of the guard to the top of the rim was 285mm. I need to drive the Rok tomorrow to check the drop caused by bull bar (no winch). It took me bloody 8 hours to fit the bull bar, including taking many pictures in the process, and soldering the wiring in instead using the scotch locks connectors.

[gavs]

Tornado_ALIVE, I think you are getting confused between the relationship of lift vs down travel. Lifting a car decreases your down travel unless you also increase the internal length that the piston in the damper can travel through. The OME Amarok front strut indeed does have an increased stroke length allowing the vehicle to retain as much of the factory down travel as it can. The reason that the FRONT STRUTS are limited to a 20mm lift is to retain CV joint life expectancy. The rear can comfortably go up by 60mm but for looks, comfort and ride balance, the rears have also been limited in the height increase. If you lift the rear too far over the front the entire ride balance and specifically, vehicle control can be VERY adversely affected, to the tune of ESC no longer functioning properly.

RE your argument regarding build quality, last time I was in China looking at different manufacturing plants, I happened to get shown through the factory that produces Gabriel dampers. Not only Gabriel but KYB, Tokico, low end Koni reds and the Bilstein B6 and B8's. As Miro said, just because the OME dampers are produced in the same factory as Monroe, they aren't the same, the internals are COMPLETELY different and they're built on their own line. Monroe also supply factory fitted dampers to the likes of Ducati, Volkswagen, Renault, BMW and Porsche, just to name a few.
Yes the springs are made by kings springs but they are made to OME's specifications using material selected by OME, the generic Kings you buy at autobarn aren't the same.
Problems with the leaf springs? There can't be too many other than verbal bashing by forum warriors who probably didn't get the right spring/damper combo to begin with maybe, could you sight some examples of the problems?

Transporter, it's your choice as to what you want to go with but knowing how long was spent developing the Amarok suspension by OME, I can comfortably say that you won't find many equal, let alone better setups on the market.

[Transporter]

Transporter, it's your choice as to what you want to go with but knowing how long was spent developing the Amarok suspension by OME, I can comfortably say that you won't find many equal, let alone better setups on the market.

I kind of feel that. ;)

...as for the robustness of the Bilstein strut, there are also technical limits that you don't want to have some components to be indestructible, because the strut could be cheaper and when it bents while you pushed the car over the limits it's still better than bending/breaking something else in the car/chassis.

I always like when you can rebuild the components but when asked how much for the rebuilt kit and how long it takes to rebuild, I often find that buying a new is cheaper. :)

[Tom87]

If OME only lift the front 20mm, then I would only lift it 20mm.

Having the extra 20mm of chassis clearance isn't useful when the majority of the time while driving down a typical rough interstate highway you just want the wheels on the ground for steering and braking to work properly.

I have a bilstein fetish and ditched OME for a fancy shock and custom spring setup on my last 4WD but it was a very different vehicle to the Amarok (solid axles, not IFS). If I owned the Amarok, I'd be fitting OME and gauging it from there. If the shocks didn't suit then I'd change to the Bilsteins (and still use the OME springs, as they're the some of the best on the market in Australia IMHO). Depending on the type of use you expect to see, you could be replacing the shocks in as little as 1 set of tyres anyway. It is a big vehicle and they're big tyres, the shocks work pretty hard to keep things under control!

[Tornado_ALIVE]

No confusion Gav, I am talking down travel and real life experience from members who have fitted them. OME shocks have also failed. There are members changing to Billies after running OME. Billies are not over engineered, the others are under. I am not a fan boy of any brand and nearly bought OME. I changed my mind based on experience and advise of those who have Amaroks and are using them.

I am on this forum because I also have a Golf. I don't mean any disrespect but why would you discuss this issue on a site that is a ghost town as far as Amarok content and owners are concerned when you can discuss in an Amarok specific forum with people who have actually fitted and used these systems in anger. My feedback is consistent with what Amarok experts are discussing over there. Not Golf owners.

I really don't care what system people run, but I will certainly give advice.

[Tornado_ALIVE]

Tom, we are building these Roks for off road work. Yes we may do more black top work but for off road we are chasing clearance. If it was not for off road, I would leave it standard. Lifting an extra 20mm will reduce your down travel 20mm but with the poor factory down travel, it does not make much difference as you will be lifting legs in the air often. This is where the diff lock comes into play. If it wasn't for the diff lock, it would be a much bigger problem.

The benefits of extra clearance far outway the negatives of reduced down travel. Also, lifting higher than 50mm (as with increasing the down travel) will shorten the life of the CV significantly.

[Tornado_ALIVE]

just because the OME dampers are produced in the same factory as Monroe, they aren't the same, the internals are COMPLETELY different and they're built on their own line.

Yes the springs are made by kings springs but they are made to OME's specifications using material selected by OME, the generic Kings you buy at autobarn aren't the same.

Problems with the leaf springs? There can't be too many other than verbal bashing by forum warriors who probably didn't get the right spring/damper combo to begin with maybe, could you sight some examples of the problems?


Monroe build OME shocks to suit various models to meet model specific specs. So does Bilstien. King springs build to specific model spec as well..... as does Dobinson. Don't get caught up in the romance of but we build them differently to suit these models........ They all do.

Leafs, I am not up to speed with the problems people are having with them but these "keyboard warriors" are the people who have used them and have real feedback. Not some salesman pushing BS down your throat for a sale.

Also, the lift has nothing to do with the shock but with the springs themselves. If you don't want to run Dobinson, then get some Kings for the Billies and visa versa. FYI, my first Dobinsons gave me 10mm lift with accessories fitted. Dobinson have several different spec coils and leafs to cater for various height lifts and addition weight of vehicles with accessories. So to King Springs and others. I later fitted the highest Dobinson coils which were meant to give 35mm lift with a bar and winch. I got 45 because my bar was a lighter tube bar and the winch was lighter, running dyneema.

Shocks, these can also be run on standard coils to give you no additional lift but improve shock response and performance. It is your call if you want to lift. The Billies are a better engineered, better performing and a more robust shock. Difference between Kings and Dobinson are minimal and would come down to personal taste, price and availability.

Also, the Rok comes fitted factory with Bilstiens. Not sure what type. Might be B4's but I am guessing there. Bilstien have also done a %$#^ load of R&D on the development, perhaps and likely significantly more.

Dobinson Rok range for coils and leafs showing expected lift heights with nominated additional accessories.

http://www.dobinsonsprings.com/docs/catalogues/4x4/pdf/VOLK-51.pdf

[gavs]

I don't think he is getting the hint why I might know a little bit about the OME product rather than the salesman BS..... Oh and just as a pointer, the height of the lift is spring related but the control, damping and attitude of the car are all controlled by the damper. Put standard lifting or lowering springs on factory dampers without the piston in its correct internal resting position, your always going to have a compromised ride. Put any damper on a car that doesn't match the spring rate, no matter what you do or how many spring suppliers you try, the ride will never be anywhere near as good as matched springs and dampers.

[Tornado_ALIVE]

So.... do you have a vested interest in OME? I don't think you are taking the hint. I would rather take advice from Amarok owners who have tried and tested the equipment and give real live feedback, some of whom also work in the industry.

King and Dobinson springs as mentioned are not bad. Adding Billie shocks to OEM springs will give you an improved ride and a more robust combination. Not as good as upgrading the springs as well but that comes down to peoples budget and choice. Several Rok owners have just added King / Dobinson coils to OEM shocks as they wanted a budget lift. Yes, that is a compromise.

I would be happy to run King's coils as well but the person I received my Billies from was a Dobinson dealer who could give me a better price on the Dobinson than he could on Kings.

OME shocks have failed. Bilstien have not. TJM Golds have failed. Their revised units have not. OEM have also failed which are a Bilstein unit (not B6). There is a reason why TJM revised their shocks and other manufactures have also strengthened theirs. OME still have not revised / strengthened theirs. I would get the new TJM's any day over OME. I believe the Billies are better again but there are people who sware by the new TJM Golds.


So gavs........ are you supporting a Shock that has been known to fail. Particularly over a well engineered German unit that is physically much more robust than the OME.

[Transporter]

Your input Tornado_ALIVE is greatly appreciated.
I get that the struts and shocks could leak, I've been replacing them for more than 30 years.
However, I should've pointed out more clearly, that I'm not chasing a massive lift. Just a compensation (or a tiny bit more) for the drop in the suspension caused by the bull bar. To have the ideal suspension for every situation and every road surface is not possible, so replacing the factory set up is always a compromise, hence me asking other Amarok drivers about their experience with the OME and other brands. My Amarok will be used for a casual off road and it will spend most of its time on the bitumen (at least that's the plan), so the good road manners and comfort are important.

Lifting your car higher will make it more likely to roll, it also reduces the max. side slope angle and changes other dynamics of the Amarok as well.

[Tornado_ALIVE]

Hi Transporter, FYI I never mentioned anything about leaks. The failures are

1) The top nut snapping off. When this happens, you loose the nut, large metal washer and rubber bush on top of the shock tower. Not only do you have to replace the shock, but you have to source these parts either new (genuine) or at a wrecker.

2) Lower arms fold sideways. When doing so, it takes out the CV joint as well.

Not pretty having to change these parts out when on a track.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2014/03/Billie1_zpsa69c6967-1.jpg

Once again you can see the difference in thickness between the arms. OEM v's Bilstein. OME, Pedders and old TJM Gold are simular to the OEM strut.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2014/03/Billie2_zpse03c7388-1.jpg

If you are not chasing height, then I would recommend

- Leaving your rear leafs. The Rok sits pretty high in the back as is. If you pick up another 10 or 20mm in the front, it will still sit a bit back high.

- Dobinson coil springs part # C63-036. I ran these springs initially with a 45kg front bar only. This gave me a 10mm lift. If you are running a heavier, more conventional bar, it should work out about level.

C63-032 should give you a 35mm lift with just the front bar but it sounds like you don't want to go this high.

As for road manners, I lost a bit of handling when I went from 18" rims with HT's to 16" rims with AT's. After installing the Billie / Dobinson front end, the handling returned close to factory

If you don't change your tyres, I would imagine Billies with the Dobinson C63-036 (even the C63-038 ) will result in a more compliant ride.

Dobinson have 4 different weight rated springs. I believe Kings have 2, being the KVFR-22 and the KVFR-22H. The KVFR-22HD have been discontinued.

Approx 20mm lift.
KVFR-22 (for vehicles WITHOUT bull bars).
KVFR-22H (for vehicles WITH bull bars and/or winch...but it is not as high as the old HD version.

[gavs]

OME shocks have failed. Bilstien have not. TJM Golds have failed. Their revised units have not. OEM have also failed which are a Bilstein unit (not B6). There is a reason why TJM revised their shocks and other manufactures have also strengthened theirs. OME still have not revised / strengthened theirs. I would get the new TJM's any day over OME. I believe the Billies are better again but there are people who sware by the new TJM Golds.


So gavs........ are you supporting a Shock that has been known to fail. Particularly over a well engineered German unit that is physically much more robust than the OME.

Of course I am because without proof Of the clevis failures you talk about, then there can be no argument. I know how strong the OE dampers are and I also know that Monroe supply direr to the line in Argentina as well as Bilstein so that point is irrelevant. The OEM dictates the design of the dampers, not the manufacturer.

[Tornado_ALIVE]

Gavs, perhaps this will help. Thread discussing failures. One guy, 3 failures alone with OME.

Leaking shock absorber (http://www.ausamarok.com.au/forum/showthread.php/4874-Leaking-shock-absorber)

FYI, thread discuss structural failures as well.

[Transporter]

Gavs, perhaps this will help. Thread discussing failures. One guy, 3 failures alone with OME.

Leaking shock absorber (http://www.ausamarok.com.au/forum/showthread.php/4874-Leaking-shock-absorber)

FYI, thread discuss structural failures as well.

Yes, the correct installation is crucial.
...and certainly if the OME shockers were so bad, other makes and models would have a problems as well. Otherwise you would have to draw a conclusion that the Amarok is badly designed and badly put together. :?
No offense but,
were all these failed shocks/struts installed by a qualified mechanics or just DIY?

[Tornado_ALIVE]

Installed by professionals. I am not sure about other makes and models but I am sure google will tell you. Other shocks have had issues as well. That is why some manufactures such as TJM have revised theirs. Not sure if it is the Rok design! but I do know people are not having issues with Billies, so you can draw your own conclusion.

I have said enough in this thread and to be honest, am not fussed in what people decide to choose. I was only looking at sharing others experience and what has been discussed between Amarok owners and forum members, only to be flamed by certain people. I think I will retire most of my thoughts to the Ausamarok forum with actual owners, and give this place a miss. Hope you can spend a bit more time over there Transporter :)

[Transporter]

Hi Tornado_ALIVE, sometimes it's just the words that are posted without the emotions or with the emotions, everyone will read it differently and take differently the stuff that has been posted. I know that it would be a different conversation and you would get a different impression from it, if you're talking to face to face with members of the forum. Your (every ones) knowledge/experience especially if valuable has always been appreciated in here. :)

I'm almost everyday on the AusAmarok forum, slowly catching up with the content that interests me the most. :)