Battery State of Charge (SOC)

[DV52]

I'm not sure if Mk7 owners are aware, but it's a simple matter to check the prevailing value of your car's battery capacity. The process is probably written in the manual somewhere, but I discovered how to do this while looking at a VCDS site in Germany (thanks to the venerable Ryan-R for the weblink). To my surprise, I found that no additional coding was necessary to enable this function. It was already installed on my Highline - not sure if the same is true for comfortline models.

With the ignition switched off, press and continue to hold the trip reset button in the lower middle part of the instrument panel (behind the steering wheel). The number "0.0" is embossed on the button . When you hold the button down, the display between the tachometer and the speed dial will reset the trip reading to 0 kms, then it will show the word "Time" and then it will show "Battery". When "Battery" is displayed release the button and the SOC (State of Charge) is shown for a small time before returning back to the main screen.

My SOC appears to always read about 70%. My battery is of course new, but I'd be interested in knowing if others have a similar reading. Responses greatly appreciated

[godzilla_110TDI]

Mine's the same - 70%

Need to note though, doors need to be closed otherwise the screen won't display.

[goback]

Mine shows 80%.

[Mountainman]

Mine showed 70%

[flagger]

80% on my 90TSI DSG

[LR Lorenz]

80% on mine 90tsi Comfortline my14


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[scobb]

70% on my 103kW MY14 Highline.

[Paul_R]

What happens if you release the button when "Time" is displayed? Are there any options after "Battery"?

[ganstar]

Mine shows 70 if its been sitting or 80 just after I turn off the ignition.

[ganstar]

What happens if you release the button when "Time" is displayed? Are there any options after "Battery"?
There are no more menu options.

[Mountainman]

What happens if you release the button when "Time" is displayed? Are there any options after "Battery"?You can then adjust the time if necessary. Hour number then minute number flash and you press the odo button to adjust. it's an even quicker way of doing it than using the touch screen.

[bru20vt]

70% on my 90TSI DSG, start/stop has been active from day 1 - now travelled 4500kms.

[vdubberd]

60% on my batteries SOC, 900km's now travelled. I wonder if this is due to me not having done many long trips?
For the most part start stop is active, unless in built up traffic that is slowly rolling along

[popeclement]

80% new delivery reading.
Noticed the battery condition/test card with the logbook - wonder how they test.

[LMF]

80% on my 90TSI

[AdamD]

80% new delivery reading.
Noticed the battery condition/test card with the logbook - wonder how they test.

They would put a voltmeter on the battery at idle and under load, and check the voltage.

I use an Auto-polar FIS+ in my Mk6 GTI, and it reports (amongst many other things) the CANBUS-measured battery voltage in my MFD in real time - handy!

I wouldn't be surprised if the Mk7 percentage readout is based on a combination of this measured voltage and some other age-related metrics, but I'm only speculating.

[DV52]

They would put a voltmeter on the battery at idle and under load, and check the voltage.

I use an Auto-polar FIS+ in my Mk6 GTI, and it reports (amongst many other things) the CANBUS-measured battery voltage in my MFD in real time - handy!

I wouldn't be surprised if the Mk7 percentage readout is based on a combination of this measured voltage and some other age-related metrics, but I'm only speculating.

AdamD: I'd never heard of an "Auto-polar FIS+". I just had a quick squiz on the net. What an intriguing little device? What do you use it for and is it model specific for the Golf seriess? Does it work on a mkVII? Also, how is it different to the measuring parameters that are available with a VCDS cable? Is one better than the other? If so, in what areas? So many questions - sorry

[Idle]

Had one on my Mk6 — it was an interesting device, as you say.
It can do some of the things the VCDS cable does, but not all (and, of course, vice-versa) — if forced to choose, Rosstech would win.

As yet it doesn't work with Mk7, which has had its electronics completely reworked and seemingly made as difficult as possible — I wish it did, for mine is now languishing on the shelf.

[DonJuan]

With the MK6 the Autopolar reads the current charge rate as you're driving which is really only an indicator that your alternator is charging the battery. To do a proper battery test you need so calibrated equipment and a load testing machine to put a load through the battery. The battery needs to be fully charged to perform the test as you get incorrect readings if the battery is below full charge.

Start/stop sounds like a great feature for economy but I believe that due to the chemistry and how a starting battery works, the constant starting will reduce the lifetime of the battery.

[DV52]

Had one on my Mk6 — it was an interesting device, as you say.
It can do some of the things the VCDS cable does, but not all (and, of course, vice-versa) — if forced to choose, Rosstech would win.

As yet it doesn't work with Mk7, which has had its electronics completely reworked and seemingly made as difficult as possible — I wish it did, for mine is now languishing on the shelf.

Idle: OK. So, from your saying, am I right in thinking of the Auto Polar as as a real-time measuring platform but it uses the MDF as the read-out screen. A bit like having a VCDS sitting beside you monitring "measurement parameters" while you drive. Is this correct?
I assume that it plugs into the ODBII plug (same as the VCDS)
Sounds neat! Pity that it doesn't support the 5G/5Q platform

[Transporter]

Idle: OK. So, from your saying, am I right in thinking of the Auto Polar as as a real-time measuring platform but it uses the MDF as the read-out screen. A bit like having a VCDS sitting beside you monitring "measurement parameters" while you drive. Is this correct?
I assume that it plugs into the ODBII plug (same as the VCDS)
Sounds neat! Pity that it doesn't support the 5G/5Q platform

The battery voltage read out on its own is not a very accurate indicator of the battery state of charge. The VCDS gives you heaps more data (if not all) about the battery SOC.

[DV52]

With the MK6 the Autopolar reads the current charge rate as you're driving which is really only an indicator that your alternator is charging the battery. To do a proper battery test you need so calibrated equipment and a load testing machine to put a load through the battery. The battery needs to be fully charged to perform the test as you get incorrect readings if the battery is below full charge.

Start/stop sounds like a great feature for economy but I believe that due to the chemistry and how a starting battery works, the constant starting will reduce the lifetime of the battery.

DonJuan: like you, I'm not a fan of Stop/Start. It claims to be better for the environment, but I wonder if anyone has looked at the "womb-to-tomb" lifecycle of the facility for a net benefit.

From my understanding of the facility, more energy is needed in the life cycle of stop/start because:

you need larger battery from the outset,
the battery must be charged more often
if you are correct about reduced battery life, battery replacement is sooner
you need a more robust starter motor from the outset
the starter motor may have to be replaced more often (not sure about this)?

On the reverse side of the equation, there is an obvious fuel saving when the engine is not running.

The question is - is there actually a net benefit over the life of the vehicle? Or perhaps the better question is: how much stop-start traffic do you need to get a net benefit (and how many of us actually experience that level of stop-start traffic)?

[DV52]

[QUOTE=Transporter;1027811]The battery voltage read out on its own is not a very accurate indicator of the battery state of charge. The VCDS gives you heaps more data (if not all) about the battery SOC.[/QUOTE

Transporter: (what is a super moderator?) Thanks, it still looks like an interesting piece-of-kit. Shame that it doesn't support the mkVII

[tigger73]

Idle: OK. So, from your saying, am I right in thinking of the Auto Polar as as a real-time measuring platform but it uses the MDF as the read-out screen. A bit like having a VCDS sitting beside you monitring "measurement parameters" while you drive. Is this correct?
I assume that it plugs into the ODBII plug (same as the VCDS)
Sounds neat! Pity that it doesn't support the 5G/5Q platform

The Autopolar guys are working on a mk7 version. I believe this will be a firmware update to existing hardware.

This sits in the infotainment bus not in the OBD port like a lot of other devices. It physically connects in off your CANbus gateway unit and works for most mk5 and mk6 platform vehicles with full height MFD.

It allows you to display a lot of diagnostic data direct on your MFD. It also enables a number of comfort features including mirror dipping in reverse.

Theres a whole thread on this in the audio/electronics forum: http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f78/auto-polar-fis-advanced-complete-guide-80439.html


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[Transporter]

DonJuan: like you, I'm not a fan of Stop/Start. It claims to be better for the environment, but I wonder if anyone has looked at the "womb-to-tomb" lifecycle of the facility for a net benefit.

From my understanding of the facility, more energy is needed in the life cycle of stop/start because:

you need larger battery from the outset,
the battery must be charged more often
if you are correct about reduced battery life, battery replacement is sooner
you need a more robust starter motor from the outset
the starter motor may have to be replaced more often (not sure about this)?

On the reverse side of the equation, there is an obvious fuel saving when the engine is not running.

The question is - is there actually a net benefit over the life of the vehicle? Or perhaps the better question is: how much stop-start traffic do you need to get a net benefit (and how many of us actually experience that level of stop-start traffic)?

The starter motor and the ring gear on the flywheel are beefed up in the engines with stop start technology. The AGM battery will have most likely just a normal lifespan if you use the stop start feature. I'd like to hope that one could get a double life from the AGM battery with the stop start switched off.

[Alex31]

I am under the impression that it is not the starter motor used for the stop/start system in cars, rather a 2 stage starter solenoid.

[Idle]

Idle: OK. So, from your saying, am I right in thinking of the Auto Polar as as a real-time measuring platform but it uses the MDF as the read-out screen. A bit like having a VCDS sitting beside you monitring "measurement parameters" while you drive. Is this correct?
I assume that it plugs into the ODBII plug (same as the VCDS)
Sounds neat! Pity that it doesn't support the 5G/5Q platform

No, it plugs straight into the gateway connector, remaining out of sight and leaving the ODB socket free.

However, to use a VCDS it has to be turned off — since they use the same data source they won't cohabit.

I think that supporting the current platform, which can itself display a few more parameters, will entail a major redesign — not holding my breath...

[Idle]

I am under the impression that it is not the starter motor used for the stop/start system in cars, rather a 2 stage starter solenoid.

My diesel uses the starter motor in the normal way — some other brands have a method of stopping the engine at a specified point during compression, but so far as I know this can only work with spark, not compression ignition.

Incidentally, this idea is almost as old as motoring itself, "starting on the switch" was used by a few prestige makes in the early 1900's. Of course, it was chancy and if it didn't work you got out and hand-cranked the engine.

[DV52]

The Autopolar guys are working on a mk7 version. I believe this will be a firmware update to existing hardware.

This sits in the infotainment bus not in the OBD port like a lot of other devices. It physically connects in off your CANbus gateway unit and works for most mk5 and mk6 platform vehicles with full height MFD.

It allows you to display a lot of diagnostic data direct on your MFD. It also enables a number of comfort features including mirror dipping in reverse.

Theres a whole thread on this in the audio/electronics forum: http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f78/auto-polar-fis-advanced-complete-guide-80439.html


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Tigger73: had a look at your thread (thanks for the link). I gota get me one of these! Any idea when the firmware upgrade for the mkVII will be available?

[DV52]

I am under the impression that it is not the starter motor used for the stop/start system in cars, rather a 2 stage starter solenoid.
Alex: what do you mean by "two stage starter solenoid"? Are you referring to the prime starter solenoid and the hold-in solenoid? I'm not that familiar with VW's starters, but I had thought that this was not out-of-the-ordinary for modern starter solenoids.

[tigger73]

Tigger73: had a look at your thread (thanks for the link). I gota get me one of these! Any idea when the firmware upgrade for the mkVII will be available?

I would suggest keeping an eye on the autopolar website/forum as new updates are posted there.



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[AdamD]

However, to use a VCDS it has to be turned off — since they use the same data source they won't cohabit.

I think that supporting the current platform, which can itself display a few more parameters, will entail a major redesign — not holding my breath...

You don't need to disconnect it or disable it to use VCDS - you just move the MFD to another page (eg trip computer, audio etc) and the FIS+ will close the controller, leaving VCDS free to access it.

Essentially, the FIS+ is doing exactly what VCDS is doing - polling (many of) the same interfaces, and accessing (much of) the same data; it just polls many values concurrently and presents the information in a very convenient manner. Theoretically, most - if not all - of the data able to be presented by VCDS should also be able to be presented by the FIS+ as well, firmware allowing.

AFAIK, the Mk7 platform is now their primary development focus, and as the physical hardware interface is the same, a firmware update (once finalised) should do the trick. So don't sell your FIS+ just yet, Idle (http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/members/idle/)!

I'll just leave this here...

7617 7618

Sorry for going off-topic!

[DV52]

Will do
I would suggest keeping an eye on the autopolar website/forum as new updates are posted there.



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Will do, thanks again to all that have responded to my uninformed quesions (off-topic though my questions have been)

[ganstar]

You don't need to disconnect it or disable it to use VCDS - you just move the MFD to another page (eg trip computer, audio etc) and the FIS+ will close the controller, leaving VCDS free to access it.

Essentially, the FIS+ is doing exactly what VCDS is doing - polling (many of) the same interfaces, and accessing (much of) the same data; it just polls many values concurrently and presents the information in a very convenient manner. Theoretically, most - if not all - of the data able to be presented by VCDS should also be able to be presented by the FIS+ as well, firmware allowing.

AFAIK, the Mk7 platform is now their primary development focus, and as the physical hardware interface is the same, a firmware update (once finalised) should do the trick. So don't sell your FIS+ just yet, Idle (http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/members/idle/)!

I'll just leave this here...

7617 7618

Sorry for going off-topic!

what vehicle is that? How do you get all that info?

[tigger73]

what vehicle is that? How do you get all that info?

It's a Mk6 Golf GTI but could be any Mk6 platform vehicle with full-height MFD.

The little magic box is called an AutoPolar FIS+ which can be configured to display a whole bunch of diagnostic data in your MFD. Check the full thread over in the audio/electronics forum: http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f78/auto-polar-fis-advanced-complete-guide-80439.html

These units are also compatible with Mk5 (red MFD) but again has to be full-height display to work.

[bgroper]

Sorry to resurrect an old post, but it seems perfectly relevant.
I'm currently having some battery troubles. Trying to diagnose.
It seems my MY2017 Mk7 Golf R doesn't display any SOC.
When pressing and holding the 0.0 button, it just shows Time.
Did I read in some other forum or thread something about "battery module" hardware needing to be included ?
TIA's

Edit. It my world, SOC usually means "system on a chip". :-) I see there's many other meanings for SOC.

[gregozedobe]

I'm currently having some battery troubles. Trying to diagnose.


Here are some suggestions:
Get someone to do a proper load test on your battery to see how much current it can actually deliver (these act sort of like a large 12V toaster). There are also newer battery testers that can check battery condition without putting a large load on your battery.

If your car has auto stop/start it will have a Battery Management System (BMS) which try to minimise fuel consumption by reducing the load on the alternator. As result the voltage readings you get with the engine running can be a bit confusing. Mine can vary between 12.2 and 14.8V, mostly in the 13s.

Cars without a BMS are usually around 14.4 - 14.8V when the engine is running ( can be lower if the battery is being charged)

One useful diagnosing tool is to measure the voltage (at the battery terminals):

A When the engine has been switched off for at least 6 hours - a fully charged battery EFB battery should be around 12.6 - 12.7V (AGM 12.8+), 50% charged is 12.2 - 12.25V, anything under 12V is very low charge capacity.

B When cranking the engine, anything under 10.8V is reason to be cautious and I would definitely get a load test done (unless the battery isn't fully charged, in which case get it fully charged and try again ).

NB If you have an extra negative terminal on the firewall use this one (not the battery -ve terminal) for all load tests and charging.

[bgroper]

Thx for reply.
Yes, my car definitely does have the Stop/Start thing, which I disabled long ago using the OBDeleven tool.
So it seems strange that I don't have any Battery detail in the MFD when pressing the 0.0.
I wonder whether some changes made using the OBDeleven have mistakenly disabled the Battery info ?

[gregozedobe]

Thx for reply.
Yes, my car definitely does have the Stop/Start thing, which I disabled long ago using the OBDeleven tool.
So it seems strange that I don't have any Battery detail in the MFD when pressing the 0.0.
I wonder whether some changes made using the OBDeleven have mistakenly disabled the Battery info ?

I cannot access any SOC info from the MFD on my 2017 R either, so it's likely that VW have not enabled that particular function. I'm a bit disappointed at the lack of functionality VW have designed into the active instrument display. The data you can show at any one time is quite limited. Some people have suggested that this was deliberate, to differentiate between VW's and the more upmarket (and more expensive) Audi's.

[Hillbilly]

Thx for reply.
Yes, my car definitely does have the Stop/Start thing, which I disabled long ago using the OBDeleven tool.
So it seems strange that I don't have any Battery detail in the MFD when pressing the 0.0.
I wonder whether some changes made using the OBDeleven have mistakenly disabled the Battery info ?

Look under the bonnet and see what the neutral wire is connected to. Most likely this which means you havent got the necessary hardware

This is a Tig but i guess the Golf is similar


The OBDII app will give you Battery Voltage when you open it to do something

[bgroper]

I gotta add this link to some relevant good-stuff from DV52, so I can find it again later.
SOC Battery | OBDeleven (https://forum.obdeleven.com/thread/341/soc-battery)

[DV52]

I cannot access any SOC info from the MFD on my 2017 R either, so it's likely that VW have not enabled that particular function. I'm a bit disappointed at the lack of functionality VW have designed into the active instrument display. The data you can show at any one time is quite limited. Some people have suggested that this was deliberate, to differentiate between VW's and the more upmarket (and more expensive) Audi's.

greg: If your car has Start Stop (as it almost certainly will have if it was sold in Australia) then it will have a Battery monitor control module integrated into the negative battery lead - which means that the vehicle is capable of measuring SOC.

This notwithstanding, I suspect that the SOC function has deliberately not been included into the your car (as you say). However, my hunch is that this is for a very different reason than you suggest - I have an Audi A3 8V which shares the same MQB build platform as your mk7 Golf and it doesn't have SOC.

My hunch (guess really) was that WV/Audi deleted SOC from their later model cars because of inquires/complaints from drivers of early model MQB vehicles. Vehicles that contain the battery monitor control module (which enables SOC measurement) also have braking regeneration.

For regeneration to work, a quantity of the battery's capacity must be "reserved" away from normal use to allow for the extra stored energy. Cars with braking regeneration AND SOC invariably registered SOC readings around 70-80%(depending on the quantity of regen energy actually created).

My suspicion is that this resulted in lots of complaints from drivers of early model mk7's - better for VAG to avoid constant explanations by removing the SOC facility in newer models - IMO, or course!

Don

[gregozedobe]

greg: If your car has Start Stop (as it almost certainly will have if it was sold in Australia) then it will have a Battery monitor control module integrated into the negative battery lead - which means that the vehicle is capable of measuring SOC.

This notwithstanding, I suspect that the SOC function has deliberately not been included into the your car (as you say). However, my hunch is that this is for a very different reason than you suggest - I have an Audi A3 8V which shares the same MQB build platform as your mk7 Golf and it doesn't have SOC.

My hunch (guess really) was that WV/Audi deleted SOC from their later model cars because of inquires/complaints from drivers of early model MQB vehicles. Vehicles that contain the battery monitor control module (which enables SOC measurement) also have braking regeneration.

For regeneration to work, a quantity of the battery's capacity must be "reserved" away from normal use to allow for the extra stored energy. Cars with braking regeneration AND SOC invariably registered SOC readings around 70-80%(depending on the quantity of regen energy actually created).

My suspicion is that this resulted in lots of complaints from drivers of early model mk7's - better for VAG to avoid constant explanations by removing the SOC facility in newer models - IMO, or course!

Don

Don: Another useful & informative post, thank you :thumbsup:

Yes, my R did come with the annoying auto stop/start "feature" (but I disabled it with a kufatec module years ago).

Your theory about the reason for removing the SOC display is quite plausible.

I would suggest another possible reason. Besides improving the theoretical fuel consumption figures and reducing emissions, the BMS has an extra side-effect. By deliberately maintaining batteries at less than 100% SOC it has caused batteries to not last as long as they used to. I read many reports of batteries only lasting 3 years in Golfs with auto stop/start, compared with earlier Golfs getting 5-7 years life out of their batteries.

As long as not too high a % fail inside the warranty period this will increase profits for VW and their dealers, as many owners will have their batteries replaced by their VW dealers. I will of course shop around for the replacement for mine, and intend to buy an AGM to replace the inferior EFB that the car came with.

Like many recent Golfs that aren't driven every day I had noticed that my battery isn't being kept fully charged, so I now put it on a good quality charger every week to try to prolong its useful life (it is coming up to 3 years old soon). NB When charging a battery on a car with auto stop/start, always connect the -ve cable from the charger to the special BMS terminal on the firewall, not direct to the battery.

[DV52]

^^^greg: You could be correct, but I don't think that this explains why SOC has been removed in later model cars. Fact remains that regardless of the type of battery used in SS cars (EFB, or AGM), the battery capacity "headroom" is needed for regeneration. It's simply a law of physics and an immutable fact!

I'm not sure what happens with the Kufatec device, but the "usual" coding change to defeat SS doesn't remove the reserved battery capacity - the tweak simply tricks the decision maker in the car to not switch-off the engine. I also very much doubt that regeneration ceases if the driver presses the native SS-OFF button on the center console. So I suspect that these vehicles will always operate with a % of their battery capacity devoted to this facility.

Perhaps the longevity of AGM batteries is less impacted by running at slightly less than rated capacity (I don't know) but I can't see how displaying/not-displaying SOC is affected by this decision - but I might be missing the obvious!!

Don

[gregozedobe]

^^^greg: You could be correct, but I don't think that this explains why SOC has been removed in later model cars. Fact remains that regardless of the type of battery used in SS cars (EFB, or AGM), the battery capacity "headroom" is needed for regeneration. It's simply a law of physics and an immutable fact!

I'm not sure what happens with the Kufatec device, but the "usual" coding change to defeat SS doesn't remove the reserved battery capacity - the tweak simply tricks the decision maker in the car to not switch-off the engine. I also very much doubt that regeneration ceases if the driver presses the native SS-OFF button on the center console. So I suspect that these vehicles will always operate with a % of their battery capacity devoted to this facility.

Perhaps the longevity of AGM batteries is less impacted by running at slightly less than rated capacity (I don't know) but I can't see how displaying/not-displaying SOC is affected by this decision - but I might be missing the obvious!!

Don

Sorry Don, I wasn't quite clear enough with my proposed reason - it was a possible "bonus" reason for not maintaining batteries at full charge, rather than a reason for no longer displaying the SOC. In other words, by reducing the charge level on batteries VW stands to sell batteries more frequently (because they don't last as long), thus increasing or at least decreasing the reduction in profits for both VW as suppliers, and VW dealers as fitters.

I've gotten cynical in my old age, so I often "follow the dollar" method when trying to understand things that seem a little odd. Looking at the affect on profits will often help me understand what is going on.

IIRC AGM batteries have more capacity than a similar sized EFB battery, plus they are more tolerant of discharging and re-charge quicker, this adds up to a longer life in typical usage.

All the emissions related changes we are seeing revolve around profits for manufacturers, firstly by avoiding potentially very large fines in Europe if they don't meet the strict new emission targets, secondly they allow car makers to claim to be "green", thus selling more cars. A good example of this is VW don't fit the new GPFs to cars for Australia (with the excuse that there is too much sulphur in our petrol). If they were really serious about being green they would re-engineer GPFs for our petrol, but it saves them money to not fit expensive GPFs and our less strict local emissions standards allow them to do that. I haven't seen any publicity from VW about this omission. Yes, my cynicism is showing ;)