Tiguan Haldex Malfunction .. VCDS test help !

[Ramee]

Today morning while I was driving to work I felt my steering wheel is light and have fair amount of torque steer. Also from the take off s car front wheels started to spin throwing traction control indicator on the dash.

So afternoon I put the car on jack stands, unfortunately no rear wheel spin in first gear. So haldex is not working properly.
VCDS scan shows no error codes related to the Haldex yet.

Then I ran VCDS haldex (22 AWD Module ) output sequential test and Pre charge pump worked loudly at the pump on stage. Strange thing is if I ran this test back to back twice pre charge pump will not work in the second time. It only works if I recycle the power ( recycle the ignition) and rerun the test procedure through VCDS.

So I suspect problem could be the haldex controller instead of pump. I am asking if anyone has a VCDS could test this back to back twice on their car ( with out recycling the car power) and post the result :) It could be great help for me to decide which part is the culprit.

Also this test shows the current use by the pump and controller. First current reading seams to be related to the pump. If reading is zero pump is not working.

[tigger73]

I have to admit I know nothing about this, however my only suggestion is that the pressure in the lines may not have changed between tests and therefore the pump would not need to have activated in the second test (line was already at max pressure).

Similar to when you pump the brake pedal. Second time it's rock hard.

So I'd suggest finding a way to release the pressure in your lines between tests. Not sure how to do this - maybe drive forward and reverse a bit???

As I said I'm no expert but it sounds like there's no need for the pump to activate a second time.

[Lucas_R]

A guy with a Golf R had a very similar/same thing happen to his car a few months ago. Basically the Haldex pump shat itself making the car front wheel drive.

A new Haldex unit was required. Here's the thread: http://www.vwgolf.net.au/showthread.php?15649-Haldex-Hydraulic-Pump-Failure

[Transporter]

Are you sure that you have the test procedure and conditions right?

..., make sure that if you've made any changes as I can see you could've tried something as per your other thread here http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f97/tiguan-stability-control-defeat-91023.html#post1001445 , that they don't cause your fault.

[Umai Naa!!]

What condition are your tyres in?

[Ramee]

What condition are your tyres in?

Tyres are in good condition. Only 12k on them with good amount of thread on all of them.

[Ramee]

I have to admit I know nothing about this, however my only suggestion is that the pressure in the lines may not have changed between tests and therefore the pump would not need to have activated in the second test (line was already at max pressure).

Similar to when you pump the brake pedal. Second time it's rock hard.

So I'd suggest finding a way to release the pressure in your lines between tests. Not sure how to do this - maybe drive forward and reverse a bit???

As I said I'm no expert but it sounds like there's no need for the pump to activate a second time.

This vcds test run in steps where you can switch on and off pump in different stages of test and can keep the pump running for long time. So it should be able to run the pump again in a next test cycle. I hope someone can test this twice and post the results. I am thinking pump drive circuit in haldex controller gone bad and need to.power cycle to get it working again.

[Umai Naa!!]

Tyres are in good condition. Only 12k on them with good amount of thread on all of them.

Cool, that's one of the fundamentals covered. Carry on.

[Ramee]

Are you sure that you have the test procedure and conditions right?

..., make sure that if you've made any changes as I can see you could've tried something as per your other thread here http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f97/tiguan-stability-control-defeat-91023.html#post1001445 , that they don't cause your fault.

Is their any special precautions I have to follow doing this test?
Oh I haven't done any vcds craziness to disable stability control :)

[Ramee]

A guy with a Golf R had a very similar/same thing happen to his car a few months ago. Basically the Haldex pump shat itself making the car front wheel drive.

A new Haldex unit was required. Here's the thread: Haldex Hydraulic Pump Failure (http://www.vwgolf.net.au/showthread.php?15649-Haldex-Hydraulic-Pump-Failure)

Yep. Same story... Now I hate front wheel drive Tigs. :( with 270 hp..

[Lucas_R]

Yep. Same story... Now I hate front wheel drive Tigs. :( with 270 hp..

Well IF your Haldex is infact dead.......you have 2 options (providing your warranty is bust due to mods).

- Buy the HPA Haldex competition controller from HPA in Canada (about $1000). This allows you to adjust the front/rear bias. HPA Motorsports, Inc. - Haldex (http://www.hpamotorsports.com/product_haldex.html)
- Buy a 2nd hand Haldex from someone with a Golf R who has upgraded to the HPA controller. These go pretty cheap (circa $200). Here's a really cheap one off a low km Golf R: http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f24/golf-r-odds-ends-extravaganza-come-one-come-all-87502.html#post968169

[Ramee]

Well IF your Haldex is infact dead.......you have 2 options (providing your warranty is bust due to mods).

- Buy the HPA Haldex competition controller from HPA in Canada (about $1000). This allows you to adjust the front/rear bias. HPA Motorsports, Inc. - Haldex (http://www.hpamotorsports.com/product_haldex.html)
- Buy a 2nd hand Haldex from someone with a Golf R who has upgraded to the HPA controller. These go pretty cheap (circa $200). Here's a really cheap one off a low km Golf R: http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f24/golf-r-odds-ends-extravaganza-come-one-come-all-87502.html#post968169

Thanks a lot. I send him a msg. But not sure it will fit a Tig.
I will give it a try.

[Lucas_R]

But not sure it will fit a Tig.
I will give it a try.

Should be the same i believe. Worth a try for a measly $50. Cant imagine how much VW would charge for one.

[Ramee]

Should be the same i believe. Worth a try for a measly $50. Cant imagine how much VW would charge for one.

You don't want to know !! 2500AUD including gst for part alone & 3 weeks from
Germany. What a joke..

I heard what they recommend is to change whole rear end.

[MGV]

Now, you've probably already gathered I'm no fan of launching our cars... Just out of interest, is this something that could be bought on by the stresses of launching?

[Lucas_R]

Now, you've probably already gathered I'm no fan of launching our cars... Just out of interest, is this something that could be bought on by the stresses of launching?

Possibly - although plenty of guys regularly drag race and circuit race their Golf R's etc and haven't reported any issues. The thread i posted earlier with the Golf R failure, that car has never been dragged.

[Guy_H]

You need to diagnose it correctly firstly (in this case VW may need to do it).

Secondly a Golf R runs a totally different Haldex controller to a Tiguan. If you buy a Golf R one, you will just blow more money for no reason.

[Guy_H]

Now, you've probably already gathered I'm no fan of launching our cars... Just out of interest, is this something that could be bought on by the stresses of launching?

The "controller" cant be broken by launching as it only "controls". Your differential & the clutch plates are what has to take up shock loading in the rear differential. A failure to these components is extremely rare. We have run well over 600hp through these rear diffs, with repeated launching & never had an issue.

The failures I have seen (hardware as above) are generally from a pump circuit fault not being picked up for some reason, & the car driven a lot of miles with the lamars fully engaged. The system is not designed for that.

The other breakages we have seen is for some modified aftermarket Haldex controllers that do not free spin under braking - this shock loads the differential in a way it was never designed to have a force transmitted (basically backwards through the gears) - so avoid those controllers like the plague!

[Ramee]

The "controller" cant be broken by launching as it only "controls". Your differential & the clutch plates are what has to take up shock loading in the rear differential. A failure to these components is extremely rare. We have run well over 600hp through these rear diffs, with repeated launching & never had an issue.

The failures I have seen (hardware as above) are generally from a pump circuit fault not being picked up for some reason, & the car driven a lot of miles with the lamars fully engaged. The system is not designed for that.

The other breakages we have seen is for some modified aftermarket Haldex controllers that do not free spin under braking - this shock loads the differential in a way it was never designed to have a force transmitted (basically backwards through the gears) - so avoid those controllers like the plague!

Can you please explain the pump circuit failure thing bit more. If this happens what need to be replace ( I think this circuit is in the haldex controller it self.

[Guy_H]

Can you please explain the pump circuit failure thing bit more. If this happens what need to be replace ( I think this circuit is in the haldex controller it self.

Ramee, the whole thing is hydraulic, controlled by electronics - this is why you need proper diagnosis. You can spend a week in Haldex school - but you have to go to Sweden for that.

[Lucas_R]

Secondly a Golf R runs a totally different Haldex controller to a Tiguan. If you buy a Golf R one, you will just blow more money for no reason.

You learn something new every day. I thought i had already learn't today's lesson after driving a Porsche Cayman S (lesson being that i like it and want one for myself) but also now that the Tig's haldex is different to the Golf's. Thanks for the clarification Guy.

[Guy_H]

No Problem - it's not just the processor that's different, different solenoids as well!

[Ramee]

Ramee, the whole thing is hydraulic, controlled by electronics - this is why you need proper diagnosis. You can spend a week in Haldex school - but you have to go to Sweden for that.

Okay...Thanks for great explanation. Anyway I am not trying to design a haldex. Just to find a root cause of the problem. There are three things can fail. Precharge pump, controller it self with the solonoid, or the whole hydraulic clutch system. If it is pump or controller I can fix myself only need to narrow down which part exactly. Already checked the pump it is working. If it is hydraulic clutch then need complete rear end. My hope it could be the controller.

That is why I asked someone here to run VCDS AWD output test twice back to back on their car and post the outcome. It only take 2 mins but still nothing. Thanks guys.

[Lucas_R]

I can run a scan on my Golf R this afternoon with VCDS if you tell me the steps to do it. Not sure if a Golf R scan will tell you the correct info though if they use different Haldex systems?

Edit: Just saw the VCDS info on your 1st post.

[Guy_H]

Ramee, from my experience with VCDS & Output tests, is you won't meet the conditional requirements when the car is in the air to run any tests.-

If you can find a patch of gravel somewhere out of harms way, launch the car & have an observer see what the rear wheels do (video it). That will show you very quickly if its functioning or not as the front will break traction immediately & the rears should kick in quickly.

The Factory Volkswagen tool runs a completely different test schedule to what is available in VCDS:

– Connect vehicle diagnosis and service information system -VAS 5052-.
– In the display, select “Running gear (repair group 01; 40 ... 49)”.
– Select “Four-wheel drive with Haldex coupling (4th generation)” on display.
– Select “01 - Self-diagnosis-capable system” on display.
– Select “Functions” on display.
– Select “final control diagnosis” on display.
– Follow directions on tester.

[Ramee]

I can run a scan on my Golf R this afternoon with VCDS if you tell me the steps to do it. Not sure if a Golf R scan will tell you the correct info though if they use different Haldex systems?

Edit: Just saw the VCDS info on your 1st post.


It would be a great help. Please keep the ignition on without starting the car. So you can clearly hear pump working. Go to AWD module in VCDS and run sequential test procedure.

It will go step by step with your command (mouse click) and start with pump off, then pump on and so on. During these steps it will show oil temp, pump current and , controller current usage. Please note down these values at different stages.

When test ends, go back to AWD module again and run same test again and note down these values again ( specially pump on and off stages).

please do not recycle power during two tests.

In my case second test run do not start pump again. I want to know this is normal or not. Also like to know current consumption in these stages.

[Lucas_R]

Ok all done - ignition on only (engine off). Pretty sure i photographed every step. Could hear the pump and other bits and bobs working.

Note that the current was fluctuating a bit on some of the steps.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/10/gyvugyma-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/10/he9amu2e-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/10/y7a7u5a3-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/10/gesy3yhy-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/10/eratuma2-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/10/ysa3abad-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/10/re8a5yre-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/10/e2eruham-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/10/ny8u6ygu-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/10/nu9ese2y-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/10/mahe4aju-1.jpg

[Ramee]

[QUOTE=Lucas_R;1004827]Ok all done - ignition on only (engine off). Pretty sure i photographed every step. Could hear the pump and other bits and bobs working.

Note that the current was fluctuating a bit on some of the steps.

][/QUOT
Thanks Buddy. I think you ran test twice and these pump on stage currants are from these two separate occasions. Is UT

[Lucas_R]

Ive never been into the AWD section of VCDS before, so its all new to me in there. I just kept pressing the "Next" and "Activate" buttons, allowing 5 seconds or so at each step, until it said test finished.

Do you need me to do it again? Or do something else?

[Ramee]

You did it good. Can you do what you did again until the end window shows up. And press " Done go back" button. Then go to AWD module again and run the test for the second time. Could you please do this back to back. Please post a pump on and off stage values in both first and second passes.

[Lucas_R]

Will do it tonight after work / tomorrow morning for you.

[Ramee]

Will do it tonight after work / tomorrow morning for you.
Thanks Bud..

[Lucas_R]

Just ran it again twice "back-to-back" as requested - the pump and clutch etc DIDN'T activate (not audiably anyway) on the 2nd test, but they did in the first.

1st test:

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/atyqa2u7-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/3e2y4a9u-1.jpg


2nd test: (note current is zero because pump didnt activate in the 2nd test)

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/uvade6e3-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/debygu6y-1.jpg

[Ramee]

Just ran it again twice "back-to-back" as requested - the pump and clutch etc DIDN'T activate (not audiably anyway) on the 2nd test, but they did in the first.

1st test:

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/atyqa2u7-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/3e2y4a9u-1.jpg


2nd test: (note current is zero because pump didnt activate in the 2nd test)

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/uvade6e3-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/11/debygu6y-1.jpg

Thanks, My haldex is acting same. Did complete test on pump part by part, it work perfectly. Haldex oil service is done. Solenoid is also working. So it is either controller or complete haldex diff. Getting HPA performance haldex controller next week.
If it solves my problem all good. Otherwise long time frontwheel drive. :)

[Ramee]

Finally haldex module showed an error code which is

Address 22: AWD Labels: None
Control Module Part Number: 0AY 907 554 E HW: 0AY 907 554 E
Component and/or Version: Haldex 4Motion 0043
Software Coding: 0000005
Work Shop Code: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 4D91B420D45102762F5-8018
1 Fault Found:

02248 - Valve for Controlling Clutch Operating Angle (N373)
014 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00101110
Fault Priority: 3
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 38
Mileage: 12611 km
Time Indication: 0

Any one has some idea what could this be?

[Transporter]

Why don't you get VW dealer to diagnose it?
You must have the new car warranty, it's 2013 model. Even, if they wouldn't honour your warranty because of the mods, at least you would get "an another opinion". :?

[tigger73]

Have a look on Ross-tech as they have explanations for a lot of the faults there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[Ramee]

Why don't you get VW dealer to diagnose it?
You must have the new car warranty, it's 2013 model. Even, if they wouldn't honour your warranty because of the mods, at least you would get "an another opinion". :?

It would be my last option. Removing all mods and flashing back to original going to be costly and risky. That's why I need to diagnose before and if it is complete haldex failure all back to stock and go to the dealer. It is all about cost benefit analysis.

[Transporter]

It would be my last option. Removing all mods and flashing back to original going to be costly and risky. That's why I need to diagnose before and if it is complete haldex failure all back to stock and go to the dealer. It is all about cost benefit analysis.

Either the way you taking a risk that they will find out that the car had increased performance. So, if it was me, I would play fair and took my chances and drive to the dealer with the car as is.

[Benji]

So after reading this, I may have a similar problem. It never occured to me as the car only has 30k on it but when the front wheels start slipping there is no power transfer to the rear wheels and the its stuck spinning just the one front wheel. Although this has only happened twice, once on snow, once on a slightly muddy surface, it does however screech wheels on hard take offs. Is this normal behavior or a likely fault?
thanks in advance