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View Full Version : Has Anyone Used E10 in a 95 RON Engine



Amalgam
27-03-2013, 06:27 PM
Hi All,

E10 95 RON has just been released in Perth.

My question is has anyone used it on their 95 RON TSI cars??

My parents have a Golf and would like to switch if it is safe as it is 2cpl cheaper than regular 91 RON ULP and 13 cpl cheaper than 95 RON.

Thanks

George

vdubmotorworx
27-03-2013, 07:18 PM
Dont do it... TSI engines hate poor fuel.. its not worth saving that extra 2c. Even 95 / 98 RON fuel in Australia is poor at times and can cause issues. You might find that on the E10 mix fuel you wont save anyway as the car wont be running as well actually causing it to use more fuel than before and you might feel it running not so smooth whilst sat in the car. Stick to 95 at least. Remember to check the fuel filler flap and use only what it recommends on the sticker on there especially when the cars in warranty .VDUB.

Ryan_R
27-03-2013, 07:57 PM
Have used 98-RON since before I owned my Golf. In my old Corolla (30L tank) I would get about 320kms per tank with normal 91RON and almost 400kms with 98, plus slightly better performance.

Agreed with the warning, never go below 95RON - the engine will suffer and VW will refuse to honour the warranty when they see the signs of cheap fuel.

Diesel_vert
27-03-2013, 08:12 PM
There is nothing wrong with cheap fuel - I've yet to meet anyone who likes paying for fuel. Rather, it's a matter of using fuel that's suitable for the vehicle - using the correct fuel is generally the best way to minimise running costs.

You can only use regular unleaded (E10 or otherwise) if the sticker on the fuel flap states, '95/91 RON' or something to that effect.

If the stickers states, 'min. 95 RON' or '98/95 RON' or something to that effect, you must use premium unleaded (E10 or otherwise).

...

The European Standard for automotive petrol fuel ( EN 228 ) states a minimum RON of 95 and a minimum MON of 85.

In Australia, only premium unleaded (E10 or otherwise) is guaranteed to meet those two specifications. Regular unleaded has a minimum RON of 91 and a minimum MON of 81. Regular unleaded E10 has a typical RON of 93-95 and a typical MON of 81-83.

Premium unleaded is also a cleaner fuel because it has less sulphur.

Link to Australian fuel standards if you're really interested: Fuel Quality in Australia - Petrol Fuel Quality Standard (http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/standards/petrol.html)

Amalgam
27-03-2013, 10:10 PM
From Unleaded E10 (http://www.unitedpetroleum.com.au/united/fuel/unleaded-e10)

What is Unleaded E10?

Unleaded E10 is a new higher octane (95) unleaded fuel enhanced with up to 10% ethanol (E10).



It seems to pass all the requirements of 95 RON and VW are E10 compatible.

My parents haven't used any yet and that is the reason for this post as E10 is new to Perth but has been available on the east coast for some time.

Thanks

Diesel_vert
27-03-2013, 10:44 PM
For reasons I've already stated, I do not recommend using regular unleaded E10 in any vehicle that requires premium unleaded.

I will say this - it is possible for a Golf 1.4 TSI to run on regular unleaded E10 - but you asked if using regular unleaded E10 in such a car is safe. So the only safe recommendation I can make is to use premium unleaded or premium unleaded E10.

United Petroleum's 'Unleaded E10' would be classified as regular unleaded E10 fuel. It is not a premium unleaded or premium unleaded E10 fuel because it wouldn't meet the requirements (refer to the Australian fuel standards link in my previous post).

It would be fine if you were using your own car to experiment with regular unleaded E10 and being prepared to accept any potential consequences, but it's your parent's car and should something go wrong, I (nor you I imagine) would not want to be held responsible for giving out any advice contrary to that of the manufacturer.

Your call.

Amalgam
28-03-2013, 01:21 PM
It would be fine if you were using your own car to experiment with regular unleaded E10 and being prepared to accept any potential consequences, but it's your parent's car and should something go wrong, I (nor you I imagine) would not want to be held responsible for giving out any advice contrary to that of the manufacturer.


Point taken. I have advised the parents to continue using standard PULP.

Thanks for the advice.

brad
28-03-2013, 02:46 PM
I'd actually recommend they use 98ron

Golf Loon
28-03-2013, 06:15 PM
I have cleaned out plenty of fuel systems where tight arses have tried to save a dollar. E10 eats the plastic lines and puts slurry into the filter and injectors. Doesn't work out cheaper when you factor in the repairs.

98 octane is the answer more bang for your buck. It costs $3 more at the pump and you go 50 ks further and car accelerates faster. Surely that's a no brainer.

If you want really cheap fuel buy an LPG ex taxi. If you want a perky fast well engineered car, buy a Vw and then put good fuel in it.

wai
29-03-2013, 07:06 AM
The issue with E10 is to do with the combustion chemistry.

Firstly, Ethanol has something like 30% less calorific value than petrol. With a 10% blend, this immediately equates to a 3% loss of economy.

Next, the ethanol molecule contains oxygen. When it combusts, this oxygen is released and has the effect of leaning out the mixture. The effect is generally outside the scope of the ECU to adjust so you end up with an engine running lean. This sees high combustion temperatures and while better for unburnt HC and CO/CO2, it has the effect of almost tripling the NOx.

If you tune the engine for E10 and then cannot get E10, using straight petrol will see it run rich and emit even more pollutants.

The result is that you end up burning roughly 10% more E10 than petrol, so it completely negates the 10% substitution. You burn as much petrol as you would straight petrol, PLUS you burn 10% ethanol. This does not take into account the emissions from the growing, and husbandry of the crop and production of ethanol.

Then there are the chemical effects ethanol which result in corrosion, and the fact that ethanol is hygroscopic. All up, not a good idea.

While we are on bio-fuels, ever wonder how you get oil out of seed crops? After all, when you crush a seed you never see a drop of oil.

The fact is that to extract the oil, you crush the seed and then have to heat the "meal" to get the oil to flow. This sees you actually use as much (and more) energy to release the oil than you get from the resulting oil to produce bio-diesel. You then need various catalysts that have to be manufactured, and there are the waste by-products.

Bio-diesel is only viable when it is waste oil that is used. There is simply not enough waste oil to make any significant dent on fuel usage or emissions, and the energy balance is questionable.

Diesel_vert
29-03-2013, 11:55 AM
Point taken. I have advised the parents to continue using standard PULP.

Thanks for the advice.

Generally, the best way to minimise overall running costs over the long term is to adhere to the manufacturer's requirements.

The manufacturer gives you a few options in regards to fuel choice, so your parents could try filling up with premium unleaded (95 RON) for a month, then fill up with super unleaded (98 RON) the next month, and so on. They can then calculate which fuel is better value.

The margin of error decreases the longer they perform the experiment.


put good fuel in it.

Good fuel is fuel that is suitable or compatible with the engine.

...

In regards to general upkeep, maintenance and servicing costs, going above and beyond the manufacturer's requirements does not necessarily equate to lower running costs. It will depend on how the operator uses their machinery and the conditions it is used in.

Ladies and gentlemen, start your calculators.

Amalgam
29-03-2013, 12:57 PM
This E10 95 RON seems like a trap for the less well informed.

At face value, it appears to meet all of the manufacturers the requirements, yet there is the subtle difference of a RON enhanced ULP and true PULP.

Thanks for sharing the wisdom of the forum.

Diesel_vert
29-03-2013, 02:02 PM
This E10 95 RON seems like a trap for the less well informed.

At face value, it appears to meet all of the manufacturers the requirements, yet there is the subtle difference of a RON enhanced ULP and true PULP.

Thanks for sharing the wisdom of the forum.

I think the vehicle manufacturers try not to overload the consumer with technical information, so they only state the minimum RON the vehicle requires. In reality though, it's a bit more complicated than that.

The major fuel companies like BP, Caltex, Mobil & Shell all advertise their regular unleaded E10 as 91 RON, even though the typical RON figure lies between 93-95.

If you ask the fuel companies, I bet they won't recommend using regular unleaded E10 for vehicles that require premium unleaded, because they know regular unleaded E10 has a MON (motor octane number) between 81-83. This is below the required standard for premium unleaded, which specifies a minimum MON of 85 - both here and in Europe - and is what the engineers base their decisions on when designing the vehicle.

United Petroleum though, advertise their 'Unleaded E10' product as having a RON of 95 - which may well be the case - but it's not a bona fide premium unleaded fuel, as strictly defined by European and Australian fuel standards. I think it's concerning that some fuel companies or retailers don't make this abundantly clear.


I have nothing against ethanol blended fuels in general - the only reason I don't recommend using regular unleaded E10 is because it has a MON figure below what is specified for vehicles that require premium unleaded.

Sunny43.5
01-04-2013, 10:32 PM
I won,t go into tech details but I was told by someone in the fuel industry that there is at best minimum testing of fuel ron quality ie meeting standards and levels stated . He claimed only one company regularly tested the fuel others rarely did , this would explain why my T5 petrol van reacts to different companies fuel .If I run one companies fuel the van is fine then I fill from another company same RON and I get an engine warning light strange that one . The light goes out if filled from the other company again .

Diesel_vert
01-04-2013, 11:04 PM
In the case of regular unleaded or regular unleaded E10, all they have to ensure is that the RON doesn't fall below 91, which is pretty easy because the ethanol content raises the RON by 2-4 points, and the MON by 1-2 points.

Fuel companies are by no means required to guarantee it will have a RON higher than 91. What they basically say is, "typically 93 or 94 RON, but always 91 RON or higher".

United Petroleum, however, goes a step further and actually states their 'Unleaded E10' fuel is 95 RON, but I don't see how they can guarantee that. It amounts to false advertising IMO.

And even if is guaranteed to have a RON of 95, it will only have a MON between 81-83, so it still isn't recommended for vehicles that require premium unleaded (especially turbocharged engines).

ido09s
02-04-2013, 09:27 AM
I have used E10 in my Tiguan by accident once and found it ran fine. Sure i didnt go giving it a hard time, but there was no sign of rough running or any warning lights that came up on the dash. Given VW dont recommend it i wouldnt do it again, but if the sticker said i could use it i would use it all the time

I do find it strange though that everyone comments on the usage of it that probably outweighs the savings. I ran my 2007 Civic only on E10 and found it went extremely well and had exceptional fuel economy. I tried running half a dozen tanks of 95, to make sure the ECU adjusted, and found it was a waste of time as the fuel economy was no better and it didnt feel to go any better either so just kept using E10. This model Civic is ok with E10 per the fuel flap sticker ;)

Diesel_vert
02-04-2013, 10:35 AM
I have used E10 in my Tiguan by accident once and found it ran fine. Sure i didnt go giving it a hard time, but there was no sign of rough running or any warning lights that came up on the dash. Given VW dont recommend it i wouldnt do it again, but if the sticker said i could use it i would use it all the time

I do find it strange though that everyone comments on the usage of it that probably outweighs the savings. I ran my 2007 Civic only on E10 and found it went extremely well and had exceptional fuel economy. I tried running half a dozen tanks of 95, to make sure the ECU adjusted, and found it was a waste of time as the fuel economy was no better and it didnt feel to go any better either so just kept using E10. This model Civic is ok with E10 per the fuel flap sticker ;)

The manufacturer (Volkswagen AG) states that E10 is suitable, but you need to use premium unleaded E10, not regular unleaded E10.

The situation in Australia regarding the use of ethanol blends is unclear and confusing at the moment.

The manufacturer (Volkswagen AG) states that E10 is suitable for all models (with few exceptions). Likewise, the Australian subsidiary (Volkswagen Group Australia) has indicated to the FCAI (Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries) that E10 suitable as well.

However, Volkswagen Group Australia then state on their own website that E10 is not recommended (but doesn't state it isn't suitable). It sends contradictory and confusing messages to the consumer. If VGA thinks it isn't suitable, they should make it absolutely crystal clear and prohibit its use.

wai
02-04-2013, 01:01 PM
The situation in Australia regarding the use of ethanol blends is unclear and confusing at the moment.

It certainly is.

In NSW. there is a mandated substitution with bio-fuel required. Basically, the oil companies must ensure that a minimum percentage of bio-fuel is shipped from their depots. This sees SULP blended with 10% ethanol. If the mandated percentage is not met, then there are fines of $100,000 that can be applied.

While there are some fuels being sold that are PULP with 10% ethanol, the major oil companies are currently only offering E10 based on SULP only.

With the mandated substitution, if not enough SULP with ethanol is not sold, then service stations can shut down PULP pumps to force motorists to use E10. Failing that, they can start blending PULP with ethanol.

The other issue is that in NSW, E10 is only available in the major metropolitan areas. It is not available in regional centres or rural areas. As a result, you cannot have your vehicle tuned to use E10 if you are then going to travel to areas where it is not available.

There are major issues with E10, and it is even uncertain as to whether we can produce enough E10 should motorists embrace it. Further, the whole notion of E10 was to help cane farmers, however by far the greatest amount of ethanol is produced by distilling wheat. Cane based E10 barely keeps pace with those using E10 in Brisbane.

The NSW government HAD to keep the mandated level despite all the advice they received because the previous government had made commitments to the distillers. They were going to ban SULP, but this was abandoned following an outcry, however the mandated percentage is still something the oil companies must meet.

Amalgam
02-04-2013, 03:37 PM
The local United stocks ULP 91 RON, E10 95 RON, P100 PULP 100 RON.

When I asked where the PULP 95 RON was, I was told that E10 95 RON was the replacement and United was phasing out PULP both 95 & 98 RON.

I filled up elsewhere. :(

Diesel_vert
02-04-2013, 04:23 PM
It certainly is...

...

I was more referring to the situation (confusion) created by Volkswagen Group Australia in regards to their stance on E10 blends.

The VW consumer needs to know whether their vehicles are suitable for E10 in the first instance, before we actually get into discussing the pros and cons of E10 blends, and/or the politics.


The local United stocks ULP 91 RON, E10 95 RON, P100 PULP 100 RON.

When I asked where the PULP 95 RON was, I was told that E10 95 RON was the replacement and United was phasing out PULP both 95 & 98 RON.

I filled up elsewhere. :(

Assuming that E10 is suitable (as per the manufacturer), you can fill up with premium unleaded E10, which United Petroleum sell under the name of 'Premium 98 with ethanol', though I'll leave it up to you and your parents on whether it's worth it.

Ryeman
23-08-2017, 01:03 PM
The local United stocks ULP 91 RON, E10 95 RON, P100 PULP 100 RON.

When I asked where the PULP 95 RON was, I was told that E10 95 RON was the replacement and United was phasing out PULP both 95 & 98 RON.

I filled up elsewhere. :(

It might be an old thread, but United's stance only came to my notice when I filled up with their 95 (as per the fuel nozzle) only to check later as to why it was so amazingly cheap.......the docket simply stated E10 !....not sure if that's a deceptive practice.
It ran fine (PSA 1.6 THP engine and I'm not into performance) and if they are phasing out 95 for effectively 94, my major concern relates to direct injection suitability.

FarQ
24-04-2019, 07:37 PM
Well after a few emails with VW customer care, they are stating that MON is not a value used in Australia and only RON applies. So E10 95RON is acceptable to use. I even mentioned the EN228 specification for PULP as MON85 & RON95 and they reiterated that up to E10 as long as it is RON95 or above is suitable. So i guess you should be covered under warranty if you use E10 95RON fuel....

I even got a reply from United Petroleum regarding the MON of their E10 95RON fuel, they stated typically around 82.9-84.2.
Good link here explaining RON & MON Octane Number (RON, MON) | Glossary | Marquard & Bahls (https://www.marquard-bahls.com/en/news-info/glossary/detail/term/octane-number-ron-mon.html)

BTW, i only use 98RON in my Golf as i get Costco Fuel which is the same price as 91RON elsewhere.

Ryeman
24-04-2019, 07:45 PM
I’ve been using E10 for many tens of thousands of kms, and getting great economy also, in our C4 Picasso (1.6 turbo) and it says the average has been 5.3/100 , which is down to gently country cruising. The ethanol is a cleaning component also.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Ryeman
24-04-2019, 08:17 PM
Happy for you but this is a VW forum

Well if you go to the FCAI E10 listing you will find almost every vehicle in the last 20 years is approved.
It’s more to do with our automotive version of ‘project fear’.


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Shadow_Rusty
26-04-2019, 09:52 AM
Having just dealt with an 'older' (2001) Audi, I can say that, if you plan on letting the car sit for more than a fortnight, DON'T leave E10 in it...
Run it down, and fill it back up with regular fuel.

The rubber seals in the tank turned to goo, and seized the fuel pump.
Not to mention, it smelt really bad in that tank.


That said, we ran our V5 Bora on E10 for years, and whilst you would get more km's per tank with PULP, it would still be cheaper per KM with E10. The wife also uses it in the Focus with no issues so far.