Checking Oil Level cold or hot?

[minke]

Hi everyone,

Age old question - Doing my head in a bit. I just checked my GTi and found it below the low part of the hashed area when cold on a level surface. drove it 5km to get some oil and now find it in the middle.

Do I fill to the maximum (top of the hash mark) while hot or cold? I think cold personally, but what have others found out (ie fact not opinions)

Cheers

[Hillbilly]

Did you pull the dipstick and wipe it clean and put it back in to check. Always do that

I have always done mine first thing in the morning when all the oil has drained down. However in a recent thread some say turn motor off and wait 10 mins and do it.

Will stick to my way which means ALL the oil is in the sump. Having too much is sometimes worse than not enough. The Manual says turn engine off Wait for a few minutes and check. It also says too much can damage Cat so what do you do. Follow whats in the Manual I guess if you are worried It tells you and shows pics of the dipsticks used.

[Silvertfox]

If you want facts, VW provide a handy manual that provides all the facts you need.
If you want opinions you've come to the right place. Most oil checks require the engine to be warm. A lot of dipsticks also have this stamped on them. I check all my vehicles when they are warm.

[Diesel_vert]

Age old question...

Do I fill to the maximum (top of the hash mark) while hot or cold?

Age old answer...

Refer to the owner's manual.

[Mi16 Man]

Here are two pics detailing the levels. Basically, the oil level should be in the 'dipped' area. Top kink is max, lower kink is min. Hashed/chequer plate area is 'comfort zone'......
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/05/ydu4esun-2.jpghttp://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/05/vy8u8ebu-2.jpg

[Hillbilly]

Here are two pics detailing the levels. Basically, the oil level should be in the 'dipped' area. Top kink is max, lower kink is min. Hashed/chequer plate area is 'comfort zone'......
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/05/ydu4esun-2.jpghttp://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/05/vy8u8ebu-2.jpg

Good advice but it doesnt say WHEN to do it to achieve posted instructions only HOW to do it.


Cold, Hot, hot and wait 10 mins???????????????????????


I do mine first thing in the morning when all oil is in the sump as if too much then it could foam if crank should hit it ( Unlikely I know)

This was endlessly thrashed a few months ago and I think the wait 10 mins and do it was the popular recommendation but 'RTFM"

[Mi16 Man]

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/05/negu4usa-2.jpg

And, apply common sense.

[Hillbilly]

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/05/negu4usa-2.jpg

And, apply common sense. The reason I asked was because the OP asked and your post said how to do it but not when .

I have gone and got my manual and I quote.

Have car on a level surface. Switch off engine and wait a few minutes for oil to flow back into sump.

The oil can be checked IMMEDIATELY IF THE ENGINE IS COLD. Like first thing in the morning as I do.

I recommend the cold method as you are sure all the oil is down and therefore you wont overfill it if you are careful and only put small amounts in at a time and wait for it to get down.

The difference between the low "C" mark and high "A" mark is 1.5 litres according to the manual

Its on page 296 in mine if OP wants a quick reference save looking in the Index

[MGV]

But what if it's 1st thing in the morning and you have just gotten back from a super early pre dawn drive???

Sorry, just being a smarty pants...

I reckon you will get differing results comparing cold check to warm check after a 10 minute wait. Because of expansion/contraction caused by heating/cooling of metallic reservoirs.

Check when hot after a few minute wait after shutting down.

[Hillbilly]

But what if it's 1st thing in the morning and you have just gotten back from a super early pre dawn drive???

Sorry, just being a smarty pants...




Yes you are The meaning being that the car has been sitting not turned on long enough to cool down fully whatever time of the day it may be..

At my age predawn is for sleeping.

If your predawn "drive" has expanded the metal that much I suggest you wait longer for things to contract.

You normally get a difference in capacity because the oil has not drained down fully and therefore you could overfill it.

Whatever floats your boat.

I quoted what the manual said and thats what the OP asked for and his one probably says the same

[Mi16 Man]

Here ya go!

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11514

[Hillbilly]

Here ya go!

Does oil expand when hot? - Technical Topics - Moto Guzzi V11LeMans.com Forum (http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11514)

That is a motorbike forum and they are referring to bikes which have a smaller sump oil surface area than a car and so any expansion would give a higher reading on the dipstick than on a sump with twice the area.

In any case it appears to hardly matter.

Read the quote from the manual in reply 8. Thats what matters, not some opinion on a more or less irrelevant forum.

[Mi16 Man]

.......Thats what matters, not some opinion on a more or less irrelevant forum.

I bet the guys on the Moto Guzzi forum think the same thing re equivalent posts on VWW! Signing off as the below is eerily familiar;
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/05/y8ety9y3-3.jpg

In the meantime, disregard the Moto Guzzi factor and read the thread....it actually related to the OP FFS!

"Density (T) = Density (15 C) - beta*(T-15) where T is the temperature in °C, and beta is approx 0.0006 g/cubic cm/°C.”
The source of this information from Shell is:
R. Larsson, P.O. Larsson, E. Eriksson, M. Sjöberg & E. Höglund, "Lubricant Properties for Input to Hydrodynamic and Elastohydrodynamic Lubrication Analyses", Proc. Instn Mech Engrs, Vol 214, Part J, pp 17-27
Earlier investigation led me use a 15.5°C (60°F) specific gravity of about 0.890 which is still consistent with this information. Using that yields:
Temperature, °F53268104140176212248 284
Temperature, °C-15020406080100120140
Density kg/m3908899887875863851839 827815
Density, lbs/ft356.6856.1255.3754.6253.87 53.1352.3851.6350.88"

At 4.7L for a EA888, checking hot vs cold will result in imperceivable results.

[Hillbilly]

I bet the guys on the Moto Guzzi forum think the same thing re equivalent posts on VWW! Signing off as the below is eerily familiar;
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2013/05/y8ety9y3-3.jpg

In the meantime, disregard the Moto Guzzi factor and read the thread....it actually related to the OP FFS!

"Density (T) = Density (15 C) - beta*(T-15) where T is the temperature in °C, and beta is approx 0.0006 g/cubic cm/°C.”
The source of this information from Shell is:
R. Larsson, P.O. Larsson, E. Eriksson, M. Sjöberg & E. Höglund, "Lubricant Properties for Input to Hydrodynamic and Elastohydrodynamic Lubrication Analyses", Proc. Instn Mech Engrs, Vol 214, Part J, pp 17-27
Earlier investigation led me use a 15.5°C (60°F) specific gravity of about 0.890 which is still consistent with this information. Using that yields:
Temperature, °F53268104140176212248 284
Temperature, °C-15020406080100120140
Density kg/m3908899887875863851839 827815
Density, lbs/ft356.6856.1255.3754.6253.87 53.1352.3851.6350.88"

At 4.7L for a EA888, checking hot vs cold will result in imperceivable results.


Apologies to the Moto GUzzi forum I meant the subject was rather irrelevant to the OP's question as the 2 types of vehicle were very dissimilar

[Hillbilly]

Apologies to the Moto GUzzi forum I meant the subject was rather irrelevant to the OP's question as the 2 types of vehicle were very dissimilar

As the edit function is playing up I will clarify what I meant

The increase in the level of hot oil in a car sump which has a larger surface area than a motor bike will be a lot less and therefore of less significance in the scheme of things.

[MGV]

I have the same scenario as minke (OP). And the same engine (EA888 ).

Checking my oil cold gives a lower reading on the dipstick than when checking warm, after the recommended ~5 minute wait. Probably around 3ish mm on the dipstick.

Therefore if i was right at the high mark when cold, i would be ~3mm overfilled when warm. That's why i check when warm.

[Amalgam]

I appreciate the technical nature of this thread discussion, but given that the oil level should not exceed the max mark or the min mark, then if the oil level does not exceed these two extrema ( and for safety, let us say not below the mid point ) then does it really matter if the reading is taken hot or cold ?

As a point of reference, when new, my 125TDI came from the factory with the oil at the max mark when I checked it cold. It has now travelled 12500km and the oil level is down 2mm.

[brad]

I appreciate the technical nature of this thread discussion, but given that the oil level should not exceed the max mark or the min mark, then if the oil level does not exceed these two extrema ( and for safety, let us say not below the mid point ) then does it really matter if the reading is taken hot or cold ?

As a point of reference, when new, my 125TDI came from the factory with the oil at the max mark when I checked it cold. It has now travelled 12500km and the oil level is down 2mm.

Couldn't agree more.

As long as you check it the same way all the time it doesn't matter.

[Finance_Analyst]

I just got my GTI back from service this week and they used about 4.9 L. Checked the dipstick and it is on max, but there is oil right to half way up the stick. Anyone else have this??

[brad]

If it's just a smear of oil up the stick then don't worry. If it's solid then they have overfilled.

[Hillbilly]

I just got my GTI back from service this week and they used about 4.9 L. Checked the dipstick and it is on max, but there is oil right to half way up the stick. Anyone else have this??

Whip it out wipe it and put it back in to get a true reading There is almost always oil up the stick initially

[rory]

Some engines demonstrate higher oil consumption when the oil is at the max marker rather than below it (not below bottom mark of course)
My new Scania Diesel Bus engine in case. My workshop mechanic suggests filling half way up only so as not get into excessive consumption defined range, as measured by amount of oil added per distance operated. Don't think this is written anywhere.

[golfandtiguan]

Here are two pics detailing the levels. Basically, the oil level should be in the 'dipped' area. Top kink is max, lower kink is min. Hashed/chequer plate area is 'comfort zone'......

In a wet sump setup, as is the case for most road vehicles, measuring oil requires a bit of common sense.

If your vehicle has been running, wait a few minutes for some of the oil to drain back to the sump.
If dipstick is in the 'c' region, wait a few more minutes (could still be draining)
If it stays in the 'c' region after about 10 minutes, then sure, top up a bit.
If dipstick is in the 'b' region, sweet.

Nowhere does it say that oil must always be at the 'a' level, just it should not be more than 'a' (hence why it's called the 'max' level)

The car does not need ~5L of oil in at all times, it just needs enough to have some going through the engine, the sump and scavenge pump at all times. The 'c' level indicated is the level of oil required before you risk starving the scavenge pump, meaning loss of oil pressure, which can lead to engine failure.

And remember, if the check oil light comes on, there's a fair chance you need more oil ;)

[Finance_Analyst]

Thanks guys - it was odd that the stick had oil all the way to half way up the stick. The car was serviced at a VW dealer and I read in the manual it takes 4.7L (not sure if that is inclusive of the oil filter). I provided my own oil and they gave back maybe 0.1L in the container so I assume they were close.

Either way, have warranty to fall back on as the dealer did it should something happen......

[Youdotinmymirror]

I've had my MK6 GTI for 6 years and it's got 105K km on the clock. It's my first time that had this check engine oil level warning light on during the ownership. I've done about 6-7K km since last service in June and lately have been doing a bit of driving in rush hour traffic - ?100km.

I've looked up the manual and it says to check the oil dipstick level after a few minutes of turning off the engine. I've done that and it's slightly over the minimum level. The warning light doesn't come up any more after first dipstick check. I've bought the recommended type of engine oil top up of 1L from the local dealership but I was wondering when is the right time to fill it up. It looks like it should be done when it's warm like after checking the dipstick? So that it doesn't get overfilled as it's the level that's going to be at operating temperature? Just couldn't find that information in the manual. Thanks.

[brad]

but I was wondering when is the right time to fill it up. It looks like it should be done when it's warm like after checking the dipstick? So that it doesn't get overfilled as it's the level that's going to be at operating temperature? Just couldn't find that information in the manual. Thanks.
Don't over-think it.
If you put the oil in and the engine is cold then go to the top of the crosshatch section and recheck later when the oil is hot.
If the engine is hot, go to the top mark.
Don't have a heart attack if the oil is a fraction (1-2mm) over the top mark.

[Hillbilly]

Some engines demonstrate higher oil consumption when the oil is at the max marker rather than below it (not below bottom mark of course)
My new Scania Diesel Bus engine in case. My workshop mechanic suggests filling half way up only so as not get into excessive consumption defined range, as measured by amount of oil added per distance operated. Don't think this is written anywhere.

Never heard of that I drove several Scanias and we had to check oils and water daily. The bosses order was it should be full and very rarely did they need any. All were used daily and had over 500,000km on them and motors had never been touched. One Merc had done 900,000km and not been touched and hardly used any oil either. For all my 61 years of driving have always checked oil before running motor, clean dipstick put it in again and check it. Has always worked for me. In my Cruiser there was enough floating around in a hot motor to make a difference as it held 11 litres

[gazzmo]

I am an old dude so I have always checked the oil level when the engine is cold and vehicle on a level surface, the issue when the engine is warm\hot is how much of the total oil is in the sump, this gives rise to over filling if topped up when warm. This is only my opinion after 43 years of driving and wrenching on my own cars.

[Youdotinmymirror]

Don't over-think it.
If you put the oil in and the engine is cold then go to the top of the crosshatch section and recheck later when the oil is hot.
If the engine is hot, go to the top mark.
Don't have a heart attack if the oil is a fraction (1-2mm) over the top mark.

Thanks for the concise advice. I've had to fill up when engine was warm today as the warning light came up again. I've just poured in 200ml of it and it seems to be sitting at about quater of the middle of the dipstick.

What gazzmo says also makes sense as well. As I have no mechanical knowledge of cars I only assumed that I should stick with the oil level when the engine is at operating temperature as the oil level will rise to that level when running the car - I've read somewhere that the oil level is lower when engine is cold which means it will rise at the operating temperature hence I thought I should use that level to fill. Anyway I guess I'll just get into the habit of checking my dipstick more regularly and fill minimally as required.

[Youdotinmymirror]

Just checked the engine oil level in the morning when cold and it seems to have gone up about 1-2mm than when it was warm yesterday. It is different to what I've read so I guess filling it when cold would be better although shouldn't make a big difference if it's at low and filling it minimally.

[Hillbilly]

Just checked the engine oil level in the morning when cold and it seems to have gone up about 1-2mm than when it was warm yesterday. It is different to what I've read so I guess filling it when cold would be better although shouldn't make a big difference if it's at low and filling it minimally.

Cant see how there would be less showing cold than hot.
When the engine is running the oil is circulating through the block therefore a certain amount is not in the sump so level will be lower. When you park the car and let it cool down the oil in the galleries runs back down due to gravity and when it all gets to the bottom the level will rise. I always check my oil in the garage before I start it in the morning when its cold. Pull the stick wipe it and put it back in and then take that level. Never fails. Whatever method you choose always do it the same way. Anyone who waits for the warning light to come on deserves all of the consequences they may get. Oil needs to be checked at least weekly if car running every day.

When travelling full time I checked water, oil and tyres EVERY MORNING. Same when I drove buses Forget and you would be hauled into the office to explain why.

[Youdotinmymirror]

Cant see how there would be less showing cold than hot.
When the engine is running the oil is circulating through the block therefore a certain amount is not in the sump so level will be lower. When you park the car and let it cool down the oil in the galleries runs back down due to gravity and when it all gets to the bottom the level will rise. I always check my oil in the garage before I start it in the morning when its cold. Pull the stick wipe it and put it back in and then take that level. Never fails. Whatever method you choose always do it the same way. Anyone who waits for the warning light to come on deserves all of the consequences they may get. Oil needs to be checked at least weekly if car running every day.

When travelling full time I checked water, oil and tyres EVERY MORNING. Same when I drove buses Forget and you would be hauled into the office to explain why.



Thanks for the information. I'm now starting to get into the habit of checking it more regularly. I didn't have to in the past as I've never had to top up till recently at around 105K km. It sounds like a dumb question but can we top up without a funnel? I poured into the filler cap without spilling out of the engine but noticed that there are two holes inside the filler cap where I just poured into.

[Hillbilly]

[/QUOTE]Thanks for the information. I'm now starting to get into the habit of checking it more regularly. I didn't have to in the past as I've never had to top up till recently at around 105K km. It sounds like a dumb question but can we top up without a funnel? I poured into the filler cap without spilling out of the engine but noticed that there are two holes inside the filler cap where I just poured into.[/QUOTE]

If you have steady hands and dont pour too fast you can The bit in the hole is to stop it blowing back up if you forget to put the cap on ( I think)

[Youdotinmymirror]

So right after the service when the engine oil is fresh I check my dipstick following the owner’s manual after shutting down the car it’s like probably 3mm above the max and after 3 hours of shutting down when the engine is a lot cooler but not cold, it’s about 2-3mm below the max. Has it been overfilled? I asked this question in my other thread with other questions but then found this old one. This is for my 2017 92TSI.

[Hillbilly]

Question!!!!!! When you get your oil changed at a service is the oil hot or cold when they fill it and check it.

Its cold isnt it and thats what I rely on and have in the 63 years I have been driving I have owned 41 cars and driven heavy vehicles and motor bikes and always checked the oil the same way.
Always when its cold and been sitting for a while Have never had problems. Had to do that on the buses and did the same when I owned Taxis Get up go out check oil, water and tyres and go to work.

[Youdotinmymirror]

Question!!!!!! When you get your oil changed at a service is the oil hot or cold when they fill it and check it.

Its cold isnt it and thats what I rely on and have in the 63 years I have been driving I have owned 41 cars and driven heavy vehicles and motor bikes and always checked the oil the same way.
Always when its cold and been sitting for a while Have never had problems. Had to do that on the buses and did the same when I owned Taxis Get up go out check oil, water and tyres and go to work.

So when the engine is cold and the level on dipstick falls on the smooth area above dotted area but below max is fine? That’s where it’s at on mine after 3 hours of shutting down. It’s probably a smear of oil but seems somewhat solid especially about up to 3mm above max when engine is warm - the smear goes up quite high on this particular dipstick but that 3mm at the bottom above the max is all covered in oil (no gap in middle as in being smeared) so I guess that’s solid and overfilled? Or doesn’t matter as long as it’s in that smooth area when cold.