Braaaakes

[s4mmie]

Aargh, I can't decide on what brakes to upgrade!
They desperately need something done.. at Lakeside I had severe fade which I suspect to be primarily bad fluid, but the pads are prob on their way out too.

I think I need new rotors also as they are verrry bumpy!
I'll definitely be fitting braided lines and better fluid, but I can't decide on the size.

The car is primarily used for the street with the potential for a happy laps fang every month or so..
Bigger turbo upgrade on the cards too...
With that in mind, I only want to add as much braking power as I need... 12-piston calipers and 1m discs look great but in my opinion it's just added weight if you don't need it.

From what I've read, a few people feel the stock size rotors are great once you upgrade the fluid and pads. Eddy was on stock size rotors for a long time, speaks for itself. To upgrade to slotted rotors in stock size with A1RM pads, braided lines and racing fluid, I'll be looking at around $850.

To order the ECS TT/S3 size brake kits with pads, lines and fluid, I'm looking at roughly $1900 for new bits.


Now I know the TT upgrade is a nice upgrade, but would the extra cost and weight be worth the extra braking capacity?

[jasn78]

Sam, if you ever want to test out what a set of tt brakes feels like on the polo let me know, you can take mine for a spin

[VWindahouse]

These are a great price Sam!

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f24/eoi-porsche-brembo-4-pot-312mm-brake-kit-5x100-79135.html

[Jmac]

Sam your fluid is like tea mate, but knew you were going to swap out with new anchors
cheers
Jmac

[s4mmie]

Yeah I definitely need to replace the stock rotors, pads and fluid in there anyway, so either way I'm up for some cash.

Geez, they are a good price... still not sure if I need the extra braking and weight though. I want them because they're shiny and would fill my wheels nicely though! :P

I think I'm going to chuck some standard size slotted rotors and A1RM pads in and see how I go next happy laps. I'm hoping they will be adequate. If they are score, if not I'll just have to look at upgrading once the turbo goes on...

[kaanage]

I think I'm going to chuck some standard size slotted rotors and A1RM pads in and see how I go next happy laps.

:thumb:

[nightphotographer]

These are a great price Sam!

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f24/eoi-porsche-brembo-4-pot-312mm-brake-kit-5x100-79135.html


And only about $60-70 shipping to QLD too ;) if they don't sell soon they'll be going on my car, was hoping for a quick sale to fund my next project, but I'm buying that in 2 weeks regardless :D

[Eddy]

Hoyhoy.

Sam, just to let ya know that I give my brakes a lot of attention, even with the upgrade set-up I change the pads for the track & flush the fluid for every meet.
The older the fluid the lower the boiling point, because it gets moisture in it over time even in a sealed container after its been opened.

[Jmac]

Yeah you do Eddy, in a word Hygroscopic. Thats its job but thats also its down side

24ths normal fluid , super dot 4 and the likes, Dot 5 martini or SRF only 12mnths

Cheers
Jmac

[seangti]

If anyone is interested in testing 100-0 braking distance to compare the factory, to TT to whatever else, let me know as we can use GPS to do that. With my burnt out brakes, cold stopping distance was 54m, by the 3rd stop it was something like 38m. In an emergency situation, that difference is a quite a big accident, I'd have to check the data again to see what speed I'd have been doing.

My brakes feel awful and don't stop when cold, but that's cos i've cooked em everyway till sunset, when new and if used as they were designed (for street), they'd be fine.

[VWindahouse]

Ok so here's one for you. There is a site in the UK that offer completely refurbished Porsche calipers and often have the ones that fit the MK Golf GTI and therefore our Polo. They come with carriers for 312mm rotors. I know there are two main benefits of going to the Porsche 4 pots over the OEM calipers;

1. Huge unsprung weight saving
2. better and more even clamping

But most people on here are vouching for the OEM rotor size of 288mm being sufficient for track duties and therefore don't see the need for heavier 312mm rotors. So say for example if we got a group buy together for the calipers does anyone know how hard it would be to get carriers machined to cope for 288mm rotors that would fit these Porsche 4 pots?

Here is a link to the site and the calipers that fit our Polo's

Products / Porsche Boxster 2.7L Front Calipers for Vw, Audi, Skoda, Seat... - Porsche Boxster 2.7L Front Brembo Calipers for sale, refurbished in red, pads, pin kit, powder coating. (http://porschecalipers.co.uk/uk/81/produkty/34/porsche_boxster_2_7l_front_calipers_for_vw__audi__ skoda__seat___.html)

I have already been in touch with them and just waiting to hear if these will also fit the HEL braided lines.

Thoughts??

[VWindahouse]

For illustration purposes here are a few shots of the ECS carries for the Porsche calipers on 312mm rotors.

Volkswagen Golf IV 1.8T > Braking > ECS Stage 2 > ES#1170 ECS Big Brake Kit - Stage 2 - Slotted Rotors (312x25) - MK4S2V1BBK-R SLT (http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Golf_IV--1.8T/Braking/ECS_Stage_2/ES1170/#)

For those with a fabrication back ground please comment :cool:

[s4mmie]

Mate I like the way you think. I'll be down for this idea.
I didn't realise the Porsche calipers were that light?
I'm after the lightest and able setup and this sounds pretty perfect!

I can knock up the caliper brackets on CAD or Solidworks if I have some dimensions to work with.
Someone on here has to have the resources to get them machined?

[VWindahouse]

You are one talented fella Sam! Cheers :eek:

[s4mmie]

So has anyone got a Porsche caliper and a stock caliper carrier lying around? :P

[VWindahouse]

Hey Sam it seems the dude from Porsche Calipers UK has stopped responding to my emails since I asked how much to registered post some to Australia.

I'm happy to get a set from him with the 312mm carriers so you can work with those but need someone with a trusted friend in the UK that can buy them and pop them in the post.

[h100vw]

Do you know ANY English lads on the forum?

:D



Hey Sam it seems the dude from Porsche Calipers UK has stopped responding to my emails since I asked how much to registered post some to Australia.

I'm happy to get a set from him with the 312mm carriers so you can work with those but need someone with a trusted friend in the UK that can buy them and pop them in the post.

[Jmac]

I bring stuff from VW Glasgow via my parents in Scotland, meaning my parents post out regularly, I know id be last resort but thought i would put it out there
Jmac

[Redliner]

nightphotographer (James)



Do you know ANY English lads on the forum?

:D

[vwthunder]

I have a set of Boxster calipers, carriers, 312mm rotors with 70% on them and pads which i am selling (haven't put a add up yet)

Pm me anyone interested

[Stuwey]

Why for???? Where to now??

[vwthunder]

If you are talking to me lol

I have already gone bigger to the ECS 332mm's

[nightphotographer]

Hey guys haven't read this thread in a while - I import parts from Europe so can help you out if needs be. I've helped countless forum members now. Also really can't see why everyone's so agaisnt going to a bigger disc - there is no noticeable difference in the weight of my stock worn out discs compared to the new 312mm brembos :/ when I held the 312mm I was shocked by the weight, but it's the same as the stock ones? :/

Anyways I've got my kit on now, just need to find the torque figures for all the bolts before I test them out - any one know? Mainly just calliper bolts really.

[nightphotographer]

Also anyone looking into this upgrade take into consideration the one thing I forgot - the bloody pad wear indicator warning light and chime! I've already disabled the seat belt chime - so was pretty annoyed when I heard this new one due to me not modifying the Porsche wear indicator to the existing VW one.

VWVortex.com - DIY: How to get around the brake pad wear indicator - change light lamp warning (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?2246459-DIY-How-to-get-around-the-brake-pad-wear-indicator-change-light-lamp-warning)

Thank god I can use VCDS to recode it :)

[noone]

Sure, or short the pad indicator wires. If the circuit is closed, all good.

[s4mmie]

Ordering the upgraded slotted rotors and A1RM pads tomorrow.
I remember reading somewhere that you need to pack a surface with copper grease to stop the brake pads from rattling.. Can anyone elaborate on that?
Also, can anyone recommend a workshop in Northside Brissy to flush the brake system with the new fluid by machine? I'll prob get them to fit up the braided lines and flush it all at the same time.

[noone]

Copper grease between the piston and pad. Copper grease rocks, I use it on my sway bar bushes as well does not shift easily.

Jmac has a theory to the order of bleeding, cant remember but seems to be the best way. Hope he chimes in.

[Deadpool]

Thought on these? - eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/170951320942?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

[VWindahouse]

Copper grease between the piston and pad. Copper grease rocks, I use it on my sway bar bushes as well does not shift easily.

Jmac has a theory to the order of bleeding, cant remember but seems to be the best way. Hope he chimes in.

Yep polo's are in reverse :eek:

[Catfish]

Yep polo's are in reverse :eek:

How/why so? I've got a power bleeder and have done mine in the conventional sequence several times with no problems.

[VWindahouse]

Not really sure mate, just recall Jimmy saying it was that way in the manual for the Polo.

[waxgti]

question about the wear indicator/sensor... if i upgrade to audi tt/s3 brakes, can i just buy pads that come with the audi sensor/indicator and plug them into the polo?

or is the only option to bypass the snesor/indicator all together?

[waxgti]

question about the wear indicator/sensor... if i upgrade to audi tt/s3 brakes, can i just buy pads that come with the audi sensor/indicator and plug them into the polo?

or is the only option to bypass the snesor/indicator all together?

bumping this for an answer?..

also anyone know of anyone used anyone reputable and well priced to get calipers refurbished in nsw, not too confident with doing it myself?

[noone]

I just cut off the connector and linked the cables. I don't really have a need for the sensor.

[s4mmie]

Can anyone recommend somewhere to get the fluid bled? Even the chain-stores?
I've never had to get it flushed.
Need to book it in the end of this week...

[Jmac]

How/why so? I've got a power bleeder and have done mine in the conventional sequence several times with no problems.
FYI bleeding and replenishing/flushing are 2 different things, you are "bleeding because you are bleeding out the air, you are not bleeding out the air when just changing the fluid., so doesnt surprise me you had no problems just changing your fluid, the sequence in question is used when the lines have been opened up/removed.
Cheers
Jmac

[Jmac]

I just cut off the connector and linked the cables. I don't really have a need for the sensor.
Think you will find its way easier if you are bridging to do such with the VW portion of the wiring and not the pad portion of the wiring, try it both ways next time and you will see what i mean.
Jmac

[Catfish]

FYI bleeding and replenishing/flushing are 2 different things, you are "bleeding because you are bleeding out the air, you are not bleeding out the air when just changing the fluid., so doesnt surprise me you had no problems just changing your fluid, the sequence in question is used when the lines have been opened up/removed.
Cheers
Jmac

Thanks for that. So, two questions:

1. What exactly is the recommended flushing sequence (I always include the clutch here).

2. What exactly is the recommended bleeding sequence if it's different - as I'm going to need this eventually.

Cheers

[nightphotographer]

I'm just going to poke some weird question in here as well - I was reading on one of the UK forums about bleeding problems in MK4's and someone said about bleeding the ABS system through VCDS? Most of the stuff on UK forums I take with a pinch of salt, but this got me thinking and was wondering if it might (even slightly) improve my braking performance after changing to the Porsche set up. It just confused me - is it even possible?

[h100vw]

I'm just going to poke some weird question in here as well - I was reading on one of the UK forums about bleeding problems in MK4's and someone said about bleeding the ABS system through VCDS? Most of the stuff on UK forums I take with a pinch of salt, but this got me thinking and was wondering if it might (even slightly) improve my braking performance after changing to the Porsche set up. It just confused me - is it even possible?

I reckon that refers to running the ABS pump to fill it with fluid if it is new or is thought to be dry.

Gavin

[Jmac]

Id be lucky to lose an egg cupfull of fluid removing all 4 even, but that trick i cannot take out of the vault im afraid its just one of those ones , gained from the guru who taught me and i use it every time and seriously i remove a flexi and get as much as a drip but respect the need to keep it. Ok anyway for those losing fluid or clamping pipes and the likes like the abs pump you do have to use VCDS on Mk4 Mk5 and 6, and this gets bled with 2 nipples open at a time and you go through buckets of fluid but has to be done to follow the procedure correctly, but changing fluid service fashion doesnt need this so dont make things harder than they are. Ill post up the "2" procedures later on got xmas stuff on.
Stay tuned for that
Ta
Jmac

[Eddy]

Hoyhoy.

O.K. Jimmy me will wait to see the next episode as I'm thinking of changing to braided lines.
Had no probs when I changed the calipers but the lines will be different, will a power bleeder help me.

[Eddy]

Hoyhoy.

While on here about brakes, whats the best lastest on braided lines & 2 piece 312 x 25mm rotors.
I'm not real happy with the Racingbrake rotor @ the moment, they work great & cool, but after less than 10,000km's
they have some probs, Racingbrake have offered half $'s replacement on the ring, but. but. but, me ain't too sure.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/12/109-1.jpg

[rgvlee]

Has that cracked through?

[gavs]

I'd steer away from drilled rotors entirely but that's just me. Look at slotted rotors if you must have some kind of surface detailing, Alcon do a good slotted rotor that doesn't remove much of the rotor face so you still get a good clamping area between pad and rotor.

[s4mmie]

Am I missing something, or are these the completely wrong pad... spraycanmansam's Library | Photobucket (http://s132.photobucket.com/albums/q30/spraycanmansam/?action=view¤t=5E01004A-4D50-4E45-B35A-27918466C936-4725-0000014B60F327AC.jpg&evt=user_media_share)


New pad on bottom

[h100vw]

Certainly not like the Polo ones I have in my cupboard Sam.

If you need some for tomorrow I have some remsa at home.

Gavin

EDIT Glad I checked mine are the same "wrong" ones.

Reading the box carefully, they are for 280mm discs.

[gslrallysport]

Wow, that's super embarrassing. How did we send the wrong pads twice when we do hundreds (literally) of Polo GTi's a year...

We did have a sales person who was only with us for a few months and has recently left so I'm guessing he's stuffed it up twice.

Will get both you guys sorted out ASAP!!

[h100vw]

Outstanding service from you boys!!!! Matt going up the coast in the morning is doing the swap. Fantastic :D

Would have come to light sooner, if I hadn't been such a tightwad and re-used the original pads on some other discs I had. :facepalm:

Cheers

Gavin

[Eddy]

I'd steer away from drilled rotors entirely but that's just me. Look at slotted rotors if you must have some kind of surface detailing, Alcon do a good slotted rotor that doesn't remove much of the rotor face so you still get a good clamping area between pad and rotor.

Hoyhoy.
These rotors are forged with slotted & drilled in one which is one of there several patents.

[s4mmie]

Thanks for the offer Gav, I managed to meet up with Matt this afternoon on his way home to exchange pads. +1 for GSL's service :)

Turn's out it in the long run, it wasn't worth my effort...
We gave it a good crack but the old man accidentally popped a rear caliper piston near the end of the install. There's air in the system and I have no fluid.. sad face.

[h100vw]

Got my new pads at 9am, back in the cupboard now for a rainy day...

How did be blow the piston out? I have never seen that. Were you doing the fluid without having the caliper bolted in? That's the only way I can think of doing it.

Gavin

[s4mmie]

Yeah it was all a bit stupid really. The original pads and rotors were wafer thin so the piston was already pretty extended. Coupled with a miscommunication on which way to turn it to screw it back in and pop...

I checked it over this morning and I think there's a verrry tiny leak from the seal. I keep cleaning it and putting pressure through it and there's always a little when I push the boot. It's so little tho that I can't tell if its leaking or remnants of when the piston came out.

What's the side effects of a tiny leak like that? Can I bleed the system now and wait till I get my hands on a second hand caliper?

[h100vw]

Yeah it was all a bit stupid really. The original pads and rotors were wafer thin so the piston was already pretty extended. Coupled with a miscommunication on which way to turn it to screw it back in and pop...

I checked it over this morning and I think there's a verrry tiny leak from the seal. I keep cleaning it and putting pressure through it and there's always a little when I push the boot. It's so little tho that I can't tell if its leaking or remnants of when the piston came out.

What's the side effects of a tiny leak like that? Can I bleed the system now and wait till I get my hands on a second hand caliper?

You'll have to make that call Sam but that's what I would do. You'll feel it in the pedal, if it's going down.

Gavin

[s4mmie]

I think I'll replace it for my peace of mind. If the seal is broken will that introduce air into the system?
The pedal isn't going down now after bleeding, but I still have a crap pedal. I've tried bleeding in both directions, (closest to MC back, furthest to MC forward) and I still can't get all the air out. I'll book it in on Monday to get it bled.

In the meantime I'll keep an eye on the rear caliper and MC fluid...

[h100vw]

Does the pedal get harder with each pump?

If so there'll be air there somewhere. This is my experience.

If you clamp off the flexi to the duff caliper and the pedal improves in feel, then that's where your air is. As long as you have rubber hoses you can do this, don't clamp braided ones obviously.

When you bleed manually, not with constant pressure, you do risk sucking air back in with the vacuum caused by the pedal rising. This is why you need a one way valve in your pipe or to nip the bleed screw each time.

What you need to avoid at all costs, is air going up from the caliper. Bitter experience has shown me that just makes life difficult.

I have had air trapped in calipers and had to take it off the car, put something between the pads and then orientate the caliper to get the bleed screw as high as possible. Tapping the caliper would probably help get any air to the top.

Gavin

[Jmac]

"If you clamp off the flexi to the duff caliper and the pedal improves in feel, then that's where your air is. As long as you have rubber hoses you can do this, don't clamp braided ones obviously." sounds like familiar info ;)
You will still have a crap pedal even with it bled until you have bedded the pads in, then make a judgement on how bad the pedal is. i keep going over this but changing fluid on the 9N is normal way but if you have air and have to "bleed" then the method is altogether different.
Ill post that up later, yes i have said i woyuld already but got more xmas stuff on. Only came on for a sneek peek and thought i would chime in before too much goes astray
All good
Jmac

[s4mmie]

Hey Jimmy, thanks for chipping in mate, I know you're busy :)
Yeah I thought the new pads would be affecting the situation so I managed to find a nice quiet stretch with plenty of runoff just in case.
I got the new pads bedded in nicely, still a crap pedal. It's to the floor to bring it to a stop.

Here are some symptoms:
The pedal virtually goes to the floor when the car is running and does not get any firmer.
The pedal gets firmer pumping it up when the car is not running.
The engine has a hissy if you pump it in rapid succession, I assume this is just because the booster is pulling so much more vacuum with the pedal going to the floor.

I tried a few tests listed on this forum post and all checked out fine ---
Headache... brakes fading, engine sputtering...!!! (http://www.preludeaustralia.com/forum/showthread.php?16153-Headache...-brakes-fading-engine-sputtering)...!!!

Could I have air in the ABS pump which is why I can't find it?
Wondering if I should check the check valves or the plastic splitter that comes from the intake manifold to the brake booster. I have a funny feeling there's more noise than I remember coming from around it...


Any suggestions?
If I can't find anything tomorrow I'll have to book it in somewhere.

[Dukzzz]

Hello!

Would the set on ECS fit the 9n polo??

Cheers!


For illustration purposes here are a few shots of the ECS carries for the Porsche calipers on 312mm rotors.

Volkswagen Golf IV 1.8T > Braking > ECS Stage 2 > ES#1170 ECS Big Brake Kit - Stage 2 - Slotted Rotors (312x25) - MK4S2V1BBK-R SLT (http://www.ecstuning.com/Volkswagen-Golf_IV--1.8T/Braking/ECS_Stage_2/ES1170/#)

For those with a fabrication back ground please comment :cool:

[s4mmie]

So all sorted!
Took it down to Stopmasters at Brendale, great blokes.
Got the braided lines fitted and another fluid flush and bleed (not happy with the last mob who did it).
I also got them to stick their head in around the rear caliper to check for any rogue fluid and apparently all good.. so I'll monitor it for a while but I think it's going to be fine.

The pedal is still fairly soft, but it always has been, not personally ideal but there's plenty of braking force available! If I stomp on it fairly rapidly it can lock them up no problems now. Before I had it to the floor and had to wait for it to slow down :P


What's the difference between Penrites 'SIN' and 'Racing' fluid? They seem virtually identical from the blurbs and specs on the bottle, just different colours? :P The only other thing I can see is the 'Racing' bottle lists some SAE and AS specs..
<EDIT> Turns out the 'Racing' fluid now supercedes the 'SIN' fluid. I imagine it's essentially the same fluid with some refinements..