Will this intercooler fit?

[Redliner]

I found this intercooler.
Seat Ibiza Intercooler TDI/1.8T MK4 - THSINT-IBZ (http://www.thsperformance.co.uk/product/Seat_Ibiza_Intercooler_TDI|1.8T_MK4_THSINT-IBZ)
It seems to be the same one that people have installed on the 9n3 but with a slightly thicker core.
Similar to the forge seat sport model as well.
Can anyone confirm whether this will fit the Polo. Seems to be a good price.
Cheers.

[kaanage]

It really does look a LOT like the one vwthunder fitted
http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/forums/f127/vwthunders-build-thread-finally-69274-11.html#post828487

Keep us (or at least me!) informed if you get this.

[vwthunder]

Seeing as the Forge intercooler looses pressure, i would be worried about using anothe of their products

[Redliner]

This isn't the forge intercooler model that loses pressure.

The link above is for the seat intercooler, not a forge GTI intercooler.


The link below is for the forge intercooler for the Polo GTI that loses pressure.
Forge Motorsport | Alloy Fabrication (http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/content.asp?inc=product&cat=260501&product=FMINTPOLO)
There is a large difference between the two intercoolers.

Forge also make a version for the seat intercooler:
FMINTSSIBP - Forge Motorsport Sports Style Intercooler - Seat Ibiza MK4 1.8T | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FMINTSSIBP-Forge-Motorsport-Sports-Style-Intercooler-Seat-Ibiza-MK4-1-8T-/300696585441?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item4602e9c4e1)

Massive price difference.

The seat design is the prefered choice with almost no pressure drop from the research that I've done.
Plus apparently a clean install. Less cutting than the Forge GTI version.

[Redliner]

Not forge!
Seat Ibiza Intercooler TDI/1.8T MK4 - THSINT-IBZ (http://www.thsperformance.co.uk/product/Seat_Ibiza_Intercooler_TDI|1.8T_MK4_THSINT-IBZ)
Good, cheap.

Forge GTI
Forge Motorsport | Alloy Fabrication (http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/content.asp?inc=product&cat=260501&product=FMINTPOLO)
Crap

Forge Seat sport
FMINTSSIBP - Forge Motorsport Sports Style Intercooler - Seat Ibiza MK4 1.8T | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FMINTSSIBP-Forge-Motorsport-Sports-Style-Intercooler-Seat-Ibiza-MK4-1-8T-/300696585441?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&clk_rvr_id=375930046551&hash=item4602e9c4e1)
Good, expensive.

Again this is what I have dug up from reading the forums.
The top link is a seat intercooler with a thicker core.

[noone]

So it's similar in design to the Seat Sports IC, not the same. It could be better, how can you tell.

[clicht]

Given that i am still looking for a good intercooler, this thread is great.
Keen on understanding the differance between the seat and ths seat cooler.
Besides a larger core, anyone seen any stats on pressure / temp comparisons?
Thanks
Clint

[Redliner]

The unit that I am looking at is totally different to the forge GTI intercooler.
The forge GTI intercooler is a bad design apparently.
The seat apparently flows well and is good for standard to hi HP applications.
The Seat intercooler happens to fit the GTI.

[nightphotographer]

From what I learnt when I was looking at the SEAT Intercooler - THS took the design and made it better, so in theory this is the BEST intercooler you can buy for the GTI. You will need Forge, SEAT or custom piping (like what Troy did).

These pop up from time to time on Ebay UK for pretty cheap. And it will fit without any modifications to the front bar. Any engine, transmission or suspension (etc) parts from the 6L Ibiza FR (not cupra) will fit the Polo.

[vwthunder]

OOPS

Didnt check the link, thought people were talking about the Forge item for the Seat.
Yes it looks like a Seat Sport copy

[Redliner]

Thanks for the info nightphotographer.
I bit the bullet and just ordered one.
Found a discount code on one of the forums: MJM10THS for 10%.
It ended up costing $487 AU delivered using Paypal.
Seems a good price for an good intercooler.

[vwthunder]

Not forge!
Seat Ibiza Intercooler TDI/1.8T MK4 - THSINT-IBZ (http://www.thsperformance.co.uk/product/Seat_Ibiza_Intercooler_TDI|1.8T_MK4_THSINT-IBZ)
Good, cheap.

Forge GTI
Forge Motorsport | Alloy Fabrication (http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/content.asp?inc=product&cat=260501&product=FMINTPOLO)
Crap

Forge Seat sport
FMINTSSIBP - Forge Motorsport Sports Style Intercooler - Seat Ibiza MK4 1.8T | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/FMINTSSIBP-Forge-Motorsport-Sports-Style-Intercooler-Seat-Ibiza-MK4-1-8T-/300696585441?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&clk_rvr_id=375930046551&hash=item4602e9c4e1)
Good, expensive.

Again this is what I have dug up from reading the forums.
The top link is a seat intercooler with a thicker core.

They are the same price, one was in USD and another in Pounds, if you click on the USA price it is $1000

[VWindahouse]

That's a damn good price for the THS! Would be interesting to see if it come with the brackets etc.

[vwthunder]

Thanks for the info nightphotographer.
I bit the bullet and just ordered one.
Found a discount code on one of the forums: MJM10THS for 10%.
It ended up costing $487 AU delivered using Paypal.
Seems a good price for an good intercooler.

What about piping. thats another $400

[kaanage]

At 280 GB pounds, that seems pretty cheap to me. Very tempted...:rolleyes:

[Redliner]

Hi vwthunder.
They are different. The Forge polo GTI ic is about half the size of the Seat Forge ic.
Check the inlet and outlet positions.

[vwthunder]

OOPS I MUST BE ON SOMETHING LOL

I do know about intercoolers after having both the Forge and Seat and making my own piping :banana:

[Redliner]

I was just looking at your build thread.
Can you remember where you bought your pipes and silcon hoses.
Was it a kit or did you buy the pieces seperately.
Can you remember pricing?
This info will myself or anyone else going the seat ic route.

[vwthunder]

I got it all from Ebay, just bought the cheapest hoses i could buy

Here is a few links about the Seat cooler


Seat sport FMIC with forge pipes MK4 Ibiza 130pd - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum (http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=123308#)

Forge Piping for SEAT Sport intercooler - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum (http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=192138#)

The second link has all the parts listed that come with the Forge Piping Kit

2x S60 – 51 straight reducer
1 x C 51 straight coupler
1 x A 45-51 45 degree bend x 51 dia
1 x 51 cut straight length x 335 mm long
1 x A45-51 alloy tube
1 x A90 -51 alloy tube
1 x A90 – 51 alloy tube with map sensor
All hose clamps
Map sensor screws
Plus cnc machines alloy couplers

[noone]

Group buy of 3, each core comes in at 350 ish. Nice...

[Redliner]

I got it all from Ebay, just bought the cheapest hoses i could buy

Here is a few links about the Seat cooler


Seat sport FMIC with forge pipes MK4 Ibiza 130pd - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum (http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=123308#)

Forge Piping for SEAT Sport intercooler - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum (http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=192138#)

The second link has all the parts listed that come with the Forge Piping Kit

2x S60 – 51 straight reducer
1 x C 51 straight coupler
1 x A 45-51 45 degree bend x 51 dia
1 x 51 cut straight length x 335 mm long
1 x A45-51 alloy tube
1 x A90 -51 alloy tube
1 x A90 – 51 alloy tube with map sensor
All hose clamps
Map sensor screws
Plus cnc machines alloy couplers


Thanks.
Does our original map sensor just plug into the new map sensor flange like this one?
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/271035640937?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

[vwthunder]

Thanks.
Does our original map sensor just plug into the new map sensor flange like this one?
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/271035640937?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

Yep correct, oh and i didn't need the 45 degree silicon hose

[nightphotographer]

That's a steal man - I went Forge cause the whole kit cost me the price of piping alone haha ;)

[Redliner]

Just found this install pdf for the forge kit.,the high backpressure one.
It is the wrong intercooler but the removal info may be useful for anyone doing the install.
http://www.forgemotorsport.com/media/FMINTPOLO.pdf

Thanks for the info again vwthunder.
One more question, do you remember how you mounted the new intercooler?

[vwthunder]

Just found this install pdf for the forge kit.,the high backpressure one.
It is the wrong intercooler but the removal info may be useful for anyone doing the install.
http://www.forgemotorsport.com/media/FMINTPOLO.pdf

Thanks for the info again vwthunder.
One more question, do you remember how you mounted the new intercooler?

The Seat one has the OEM brackets

[clicht]

Found some nice info:

POG.....CORE W.....CORE H.....CORE D.....Cubic Area
STD.....183............189............84.........2 ,91
THS.....610............415............57.........1 4,43

I have further found some very nice reviews on the THS...

[GTiPilot]

anyone interested in a group buy? And for the pipes too

[kaanage]

count me in

[Redliner]

anyone interested in a group buy? And for the pipes too
Is there a pipe kit apart from the Forge?

[clicht]

anyone interested in a group buy? And for the pipes too
Yes, yes....count me in

[noone]

Ok, I'm getting into this one... Great find Redliner, I have not seen many cost effective designs for our car.

Few photos borrowed from Briskoda;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bradz/P1000691.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bradz/P1000686.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bradz/P1000683.jpg

Looks like we will need these;
Bracket- 6LL1458808C
Bracket 6LL1458808B
Bolts to fit the brackets to the intercooler- N90280904

Sound about right Troy?

add another $36 plus freight... (have a look at this thread (http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=348731)for the reference, also, as there is a mounting kit for the car this comes from, they may be able to supply the full factory piping kit for 1.8T).

With Troy's list of bits he got for $200, this is potentially a $700 kit (closer to $600 for groupbuyers in 3's). Not bad, not cheap but pretty good considering the core and coming across the globe.

I don't expect this will be of great gains over the Forge unit, but I'm pretty finicky so happy to spend the $$$ and hopefully make a few squid back from selling my Forge core to a less anal owner.

I'm going to sit on this for a few hours, but will be likely jumping on this today. If you are local to me, PM me if you want in to reduce the freight marginally ($120 for 1,2 or 3 units shipped).

[Redliner]

Part numbers of brackets and bolts needed: dug up from forums, half way down the page:
Seat Sport Intercooler Brackets. - Skoda Fabia I - BRISKODA.net - The Skoda Forum and Community (http://www.briskoda.net/forums/topic/232973-seat-sport-intercooler-brackets/)

Pics of brackets half way down this link:
Mk4 Fmic - Page 9 - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum (http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72735&page=9)

Anyone know where to get brackets from?

[noone]

Anyone know where to get brackets from?

Yeah, the part numbers I listed are the same, and the link I posted has a guy who priced supplying them recently, thus the pricing. We can get a batch shipped once we have quantities confirmed.

[Redliner]

You can count me in if you order the brackets and bolts for a group order. I've already ordered the intercooler. I am based in Sydney.

The pipes and silicon hoses are easy enough to order from ebay.

For those of you who are concerned about the quality of FHS intercoolers, here is a link with a highly modified Revo Seat Leon Cupra K1, with 360bhp utilising a FHS intercooler.
Revo Seat Leon Cupra K1 hatchback (2007 - ) first UK drive - Auto Trader UK (http://www.autotrader.co.uk/articles/2009/08/cars/seat/leon/revo-seat-leon-cupra-k1-car-review)

[vwthunder]

Guys, make sure you get some good hose clamps. I had to cut some of the piping (so I lost the rolled lip on the end of it) Which means that the hoses have a chance of blowing off easier.

It happend to me out on the road, lucky i was in my friends street lol. Anyway, good hose clamps will save you.

[noone]

Good point, ive come across some crappy ones, the ones in the Forge kit were top notch.
Any recommendations for something off eBay / online?

[vwthunder]

I just got ones like this from supercheap, they can be done up really tight

Hose Clamp - Stainless Steel, 51mm, CAL51HCS / SSHC51 - Supercheap Auto Australia (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Hose-Clamp-Stainless-Steel-51mm-CAL51HCS-SSHC51.aspx?pid=155231#Description)

[noone]

Nice. I'll travel for those.
I'm pretty surprised that this came up, id been looking earlier in the year for a good replacement, this could well be it.
OEM fit, good price, what more could you ask for.

[Redliner]

I have just bought all the bits and pieces for the install kit except for the mounting brackets.
I found these hose clamps:
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/260876613122?var=560058379735&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)
Cost me $58 for 10 x 51 and 2 x 60
The total for all parts is about $254.

[noone]

Nice dude.

Want to hit up the guy on the Briskoda site for brackets for us? Seems like you and I are the only ones salivating at this time...

I'll need to work out what bits to make the Forge piping fit the new cooler, shouldn't be too hard.

Does this cooler have 2.5" connections? 60mm reducers stretched?

[Redliner]

From what i have read it said that it has the Seat end tanks with a thicker core.
This implies that the Forge pipe kit will fit the THS fittings.
I just used the guide that vwthunder gave us and bought the pipes etc.
These are the parts I bought:
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/260876613122?var=560058379735&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/290572603692?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/300452897937?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/130539553074?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/140360930127?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)
eBay Australia: Buy new & used fashion, electronics & home d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/271035640937?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649)
Note: buy two reducers and 90 degree alloy pipes.
There were some cheaper chinese pipes etc but I chose the best value higher quality items.
Hope it saves you some hassle.

I have message David from Seres about the mounting brackets.
Will let you know what he says.

[noone]

Sorry, to clarify I have the Forge FMIC, so will need to adjust the connections near the core.
Thanks for your input mate.

[Redliner]

Should just fit straight on.
The oulets for the intercooler are a little wider apart.
I'd say there should be enough adjustment to spread your existing pipework out.
If your outlet pipes are a different size then you'll only need reducers.
Easy install.

[leitch]

Pretty sure the pipe work needs to be quite different to the forge polo fmic, as Anthony and Troy found with the seat coolers.

If anyone in Brisbane is interested I could be keen for a 3 person group buy, too (looking at you, Jason/Sean).

[VWindahouse]

Do it lads!! You'll be chuffed for sure.

Ben piping is way different unfortunately.

[noone]

Ben piping is way different unfortunately.

Yeah, will need a few bits from the fog light area to the intake and modify the outlet piping. Shouldn't be to many changes required.

I had asked my GF for a sports cat for my Birthday, she instead will be contributing to this. She'd done a picture for my birthday I think you kiddies might enjoy;
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/08/3bd0392d709c7ecb173d48ac98ea3ad9-1.jpg

[clicht]

Syd have a group buy, and it looks as though Brissie will too....anyone in Mel keen for a group buy?

[jasn78]

Yeah, will need a few bits from the fog light area to the intake and modify the outlet piping. Shouldn't be to many changes required.

I had asked my GF for a sports cat for my Birthday, she instead will be contributing to this. She'd done a picture for my birthday I think you kiddies might enjoy;
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/08/3bd0392d709c7ecb173d48ac98ea3ad9-1.jpg

lmao awesome ben

[Bflat]

Syd have a group buy, and it looks as though Brissie will too....anyone in Mel keen for a group buy?

I may well be, given the summer months are looming.

Sorry to be a pain/lazy arse, but do we have a price estimate for the whole kit?

[noone]

With Troy's list of bits he got for $200, this is potentially a $700 kit (closer to $600 for groupbuyers in 3's).

you know you want to...

[Bflat]

you know you want to...

Truth.

I booked flights to Europe today, and then I see this haha.

When we're we thinking off committing, gents?

[clicht]

I may well be, given the summer months are looming.

Sorry to be a pain/lazy arse, but do we have a price estimate for the whole kit?
Will look at adding it all up tomorrow....anyone else in Mel keen?

[GTiPilot]

I'm in Darwin but keen to either have it posed up here or my brother can get it in Sydney pending on the overall price :-)

[kaanage]

Will look at adding it all up tomorrow....anyone else in Mel keen?

You mean, besides me?

[Bflat]

You mean, besides me?

Melbourne = Clint, Greg and Myself

[noone]

I'm in Darwin but keen to either have it posed up here or my brother can get it in Sydney pending on the overall price :-)

Well, I will hopefully be ordering shortly, I can get 2 and your brother can collect from me if you like, there should be enough info in this thread to work out the overall price. Let me know soon thou.

[clicht]

Well, I will hopefully be ordering shortly, I can get 2 and your brother can collect from me if you like, there should be enough info in this thread to work out the overall price. Let me know soon thou.

I presume we will be placing all orders togther, for the best price...
We will then spilt the postag up into Bris, Syd d Mel

Noone, am I correct in saying this ?

Thanks

[leitch]

Easier to do separate orders in threes to keep total cost under $1000 and avoid customs duty.

[noone]

yeah groups of 3 for simplicity, happy for someone to try and arrange otherwise, but as the units are cheap and the freight is reasonable, any real savings are likely to be offset by taxes imposed.

Units should land at $350ish for group buys of 3, but then if you have to onship for $30, the original savings are already minimal.

[clicht]

Are you going to buy the pipes indivdually or are you going to get the forge kit ?

[noone]

Personally, I have the Forge intercooler already so wont need all those bits. You could all group together if they are coming from different places but if you can find 1 supplier with all the parts, could be a winner.

Better yet, FLYINGTI was talking about being able to get this stuff, maybe he can put a kit together...

[FLYINGTI]

Personally, I have the Forge intercooler already so wont need all those bits. You could all group together if they are coming from different places but if you can find 1 supplier with all the parts, could be a winner.

Better yet, FLYINGTI was talking about being able to get this stuff, maybe he can put a kit together...

i May be able to help with this, BUT, ill need numbers and ill need to know more info. if you going with individual piping or the forge kit!
im also i turbosmart dealer so i can arrange some parts local from turbosmart for silicone bends which may lower the pricing.

as for the actual core, ill see if they can do a business deal if we have some good numbers!

But i can't see forge piping being the cheapest option!

ill have the forge set in my hands in a few days so i can replicate from there!

Hope this helps, haven't quite read through the whole thread but keep me upto date!

Cheers Matty

[noone]

Thanks dude.

The general idea is to get cores, full kits as per the part #'s earlier in this thread and the brackets.

If you can line all that up, you'll be my hero.

There seems to be too much confusion in this thread, lets keep it simple.

[FLYINGTI]

Thanks dude.

The general idea is to get cores, full kits as per the part #'s earlier in this thread and the brackets.

If you can line all that up, you'll be my hero.

There seems to be too much confusion in this thread, lets keep it simple.

No worries , ill start with seeing what i can do with the cores and move from there, piping is what I'm worried about most, but all should be okay if we organise well =)

[TDIfan]

keen on getting a complete kit(either individual piping or the forge kit, pending on cost)

[seangti]

Pretty sure the pipe work needs to be quite different to the forge polo fmic, as Anthony and Troy found with the seat coolers.

If anyone in Brisbane is interested I could be keen for a 3 person group buy, too (looking at you, Jason/Sean).

I'd been offline a few days and this happens. Interested, though I think I'll wait to see how people go with fitting and results before I commit. Certainly sounds viable but I jumped on the H&R spring bandwagon with all the excitement and that wasn't ideal.

[Sharkie]

I'd been offline a few days and this happens. Interested, though I think I'll wait to see how people go with fitting and results before I commit. Certainly sounds viable but I jumped on the H&R spring bandwagon with all the excitement and that wasn't ideal.

For those in Brisbane coming to the Dyno day, have a chat to me about the FMIC I have on my car. Similar in design to the APR FMIC. Lets see the Intake temps after a few runs ..... (I have seen it before :cool:)

IMO much better than the Forge/Seat/this latest etc .....

[leitch]

I'd been offline a few days and this happens. Interested, though I think I'll wait to see how people go with fitting and results before I commit. Certainly sounds viable but I jumped on the H&R spring bandwagon with all the excitement and that wasn't ideal.Sean no sweat I haven't got money to do this immediately anyway so happy to wait a bit. Probably see better results doing my exhaust first seeing that's still stock than grabbing a couple PSI with this over the forge (for the time being, anyway).

[clicht]

For those in Brisbane coming to the Dyno day, have a chat to me about the FMIC I have on my car. Similar in design to the APR FMIC. Lets see the Intake temps after a few runs ..... (I have seen it before :cool:)

IMO much better than the Forge/Seat/this latest etc .....

Please share :) - what FMIC do you have / or was it bespoke built

[Sharkie]

Custom FMIC ...

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/07/FMICSMIC1-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/04/Intercooler6-1.jpg


http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/08/Intercooler5-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/04/Fitted_FMIC2-1.jpg

45degree intake temps after 3 dyno runs ..... no pressure drop and 7kw atw gained .... less than $1000 fitted

[clicht]

looks good....thanks.do you by any chance has measuRements.
7kw is a fair amount of gain

[kaanage]

IMO much better than the Forge/Seat/this latest etc .....

Is this from comparisons? I know the original Forge has been compared to the APR and yours looks like the APR (Treadstone TRV) design but is it as good and have you had it compared with the SEAT (or seen a comparison somewhere)?

Not being antagonistic - I just want to know.

[vwthunder]

Custom FMIC ...

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/07/FMICSMIC1-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/04/Intercooler6-1.jpg


http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/08/Intercooler5-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/04/Fitted_FMIC2-1.jpg

45degree intake temps after 3 dyno runs ..... no pressure drop and 7kw atw gained .... less than $1000 fitted

Looks like just a cheap Ebay core to me.

But hey, if it works. There is one of those sitting in Tims workshop that Josh bought for his polo but never fitted

[GoLfMan]

Looks like just a cheap Ebay core to me.

But hey, if it works. There is one of those sitting in Tims workshop that Josh bought for his polo but never fitted

fabbed up the brackets and ready to go... now to find the money for piping ;)

[VWindahouse]

For those in Brisbane coming to the Dyno day, have a chat to me about the FMIC I have on my car. Similar in design to the APR FMIC. Lets see the Intake temps after a few runs ..... (I have seen it before :cool:)

IMO much better than the Forge/Seat/this latest etc .....

I wouldn't be so quick to say your cooler is better than the SEAT.

Just going off real world data from a VDCS I can easily show with logs that after more than 6, 3rd gear pulls to just over redline up a steady incline back to back with just a u-turn in between the SEAT cooler did not register temps more than 30 degrees at any stage. I have the logs that I can email anyone who wants them (thanks Gav) I think you'll agree 45 degrees v's 30 is a bit of a difference even when you take ambient temps into consideration.

I guess this Saturday will confirm everything.

[Sharkie]

I wouldn't be so quick to say your cooler is better than the SEAT.

Just going off real world data from a VDCS I can easily show with logs that after more than 6, 3rd gear pulls to just over redline up a steady incline back to back with just a u-turn in between the SEAT cooler did not register temps more than 30 degrees at any stage. I have the logs that I can email anyone who wants them (thanks Gav) I think you'll agree 45 degrees v's 30 is a bit of a difference even when you take ambient temps into consideration.

I guess this Saturday will confirm everything.

I'm going off actual intake temps measured with a probe at the last Polo dyno day. APR FMIC did 44.x, mine did 45.0, other FMIC did in the 50s and stock SMIC did 70+. On a day that was summer & 32 degrees outside and even hotter in the dyno shed .... this time around we have a nice open space, winter and a massive fan helping the cooling.

I'm happy to wait and see the comparative results on Saturday.

I think we should have a Bang for your Buck category as well ..... how much $$ per kw gained (from stock) ... be a few surprises in there I think.

[VWindahouse]

Fair enough mate some good data there. My only concern is your comment

IMO much better than the Forge/Seat/this latest etc .....

When there was never a SEAT cooler there at all for you to form an opinion over.

I just though I would bring attention to this so the guys who are trying their best to organise a group buy in this thread are not misinformed by an unjustified opinion.

[nightphotographer]

Really keen to hear the results from your dyno day now - I went forge purely because of price, would love to have stayed OEM and gone SEAT so I didn't have a random front bar lying around in my garage...but ahhh well, maybe in the future.

[Sharkie]

Fair enough mate some good data there. My only concern is your comment

IMO much better than the Forge/Seat/this latest etc .....

When there was never a SEAT cooler there at all for you to form an opinion over.

I just though I would bring attention to this so the guys who are trying their best to organise a group buy in this thread are not misinformed by an unjustified opinion.

My opinion had nothing to do with the thermal aspects of the coolers ..... its all around the flow and for me there is no way a cooler of the SEAT and Forge design will flow as well as the APR style one. For air to be performing a 180degree turn and to expect good flow characteristics just does not make sense to me.

As far as I'm concerned a straight through design works best, followed by the APR style, followed by the SEAT/Forge design a distant last. Happy for a flow bench to prove me wrong .... just not seeing it until then.

[VWindahouse]

Well if you read your comment again the thermal aspects are exactly what you were referring to. Not the design.

For those in Brisbane coming to the Dyno day, have a chat to me about the FMIC I have on my car. Similar in design to the APR FMIC. Lets see the Intake temps after a few runs ..... (I have seen it before )

IMO much better than the Forge/Seat/this latest etc .....

And for this comment

its all around the flow and for me there is no way a cooler of the SEAT and Forge design will flow as well as the APR style one. For air to be performing a 180degree turn and to expect good flow characteristics just does not make sense to me.

I don't understand what your trying to say to be honest, all the cores are a 180 degree design??? None are a straight through version.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/08/Intercooler5-2.jpg
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/08/SEATC-1.jpg
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/08/FMINTPOLO-1.jpg

[Sharkie]

Actually, no..... APR style (for the Polo and MK4 GTI) is a 90degree design ..... straight through not common on Polo's. I'd do 1, but it would require an intake manifold with the intake on the other end.

Example of the classic and most efficient Air to Air IC straight through design ....

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/Intercooler-1.jpg

[VWindahouse]

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/08/Transverse_IM_Teaser-1.jpg

[Sharkie]

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/08/Transverse_IM_Teaser-1.jpg

Awesome, can it go both ways? $$$?

[VWindahouse]

Sure can bud. Looks like it will be around $600 US when it gets released. Here is the teaser link

VWVortex.com - *** 034Motorsport - Transverse 1.8T Intake Manifold Teaser! *** (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5725606-***-034Motorsport-Transverse-1.8T-Intake-Manifold-Teaser!-***)

Massively increased flow :cookie:

Or you can just do this

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/08/PoloFM-1.jpg

Yep it's a Polo!

[Sharkie]

It is now on my shopping list ... :cool:

[nightphotographer]

That would make it a lot easier to find a custom cooler and dayum it looks good!

[noone]

OT with the intercooler differences, I see how many rows and the length of the rows as a key difference.

Sharky, I'm surprised you are seeing such the low temps given how short the cooling bars(?) are.

Given all this bending, etc happens under pressure, I'm unsure how much difference doing the 180 in the end tank vs through the bars would make. If you look at the standard XR6T intercooler, it does something quite similar.

Testing should be interesting, hopefully will yield some usefull data.

[kaanage]

Actually, no..... APR style (for the Polo and MK4 GTI) is a 90degree design

Sorry but how is this not a 180 degree flow shift (90 + 90 just like the others)?

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/08/pologti_intercooler2-1.jpg

..... straight through not common on Polo's. I'd do 1, but it would require an intake manifold with the intake on the other end.
My concern with this sort of design and the plumbling required is increased lag from the greater air volume between the turbo and the inlet manifolf.

[Tim]

The air does not have to turn 180 degrees inside the endtank on sharkies unit.
It does a 90 degree bend. through the cooler then another 90 degree bend.

Would be interesting to compare the flow and whether the 180 degree design generates turbulence or restriction

[h100vw]

The air does not have to turn 180 degrees inside the endtank on sharkies unit.
It does a 90 degree bend. through the cooler then another 90 degree bend.

Would be interesting to compare the flow and whether the 180 degree design generates turbulence or restriction

So what we are saying here is that 90 + 90 doesn't make 180? :D

[Tim]

No!
What we are saying is that not all changes in direction are created equally.

[h100vw]

I can see both sides of this argument and I reckon providing the end tanks have a large enough capacity, room for the air to change direction without hitting too much of a dead end, then whether it is single or dual pass will make very little difference.

Gavin

[kaanage]

That proviso is where the discussion currently sits!

Anecdotally, there isn't much pressure drop across the SEAT FMIC but I await the results of the dyno day with bated breath :) (and suggest that the group purchase be put on hold until this is settled with meaningful measurements of the pressure and temperature drops :cookie:)

[Tim]

I can see both sides of this argument and I reckon providing the end tanks have a large enough capacity, room for the air to change direction without hitting too much of a dead end, then whether it is single or dual pass will make very little difference.

Gavin

Im with you there. If the end tanks were big enough I guess it would flow in a similar fashion to 2 separate 90 degree bends. Id love to see how it all worked in reality.

[Guy_H]

You cannot judge the flow by looking at the outside of the intercoolers end tanks either.

The reason the APR one works so well is the internal vanes in the end tanks that are cast in to direct the airflow - unfortunately it adds considerably to the costs:

APR - High Performance Development for Audi, VW and Porsche Vehicles. (http://www.goapr.com.au/products/about_fmic.html)

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/08/intercooler_fmic_endtank-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/08/intercooler_fmic_arrow-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/08/intercooler_fmic_heatsoak-1.jpg

[VWindahouse]

Guy, any chance of getting a Polo along on Saturday with the APR cooler??

You busy Eddy?

[Redliner]

Install instructions for Seat:
http://forgemotorsport.co.uk/media/intssibpinst.pdf
The pipework instructions should all be relevant.

[Eddy]

Guy, any chance of getting a Polo along on Saturday with the APR cooler??

You busy Eddy?

Hoyhoy.

Yeah.
Anthony me will be busy spectating you chaps.
Now I have a choice of 3 vehicles to drive up there, which one will I take.

[clicht]

Looking forward to seeing the real life test this weekend.
I may be lookng at this rather simplistically, but the larger the area of the ic, the lower the temp. However the potential for more back pressure.
So would there be a formula for whats beter... Lower temp, less boost ( cause of pressure) or higher temp, more boost.
The forge unit is not good, since it has too much pressure drop, but given the charge temperature drop, shirley it is still beter than the smic.
The same hold true for larger ic's, although there will be a point of diminishing returns.
However lets see this weekends runs. I trust guy will be monitoring charge temp/ pressure vs. Kwatw

[VWindahouse]

Hoyhoy.

Yeah.
Anthony me will be busy spectating you chaps.
Now I have a choice of 3 vehicles to drive up there, which one will I take.

I'd be happy to kick in some coin to see the wee Blue Girl run :eek: or maybe Guy will shout you for being such an awesome customer :P

Either way it would be brilliant to have an APR intercooler to do some comparisons with.

Cheers Eddy!

[Sharkie]

I'd be happy to kick in some coin to see the wee Blue Girl run :eek: or maybe Guy will shout you for being such an awesome customer :P

Either way it would be brilliant to have an APR intercooler to do some comparisons with.

Cheers Eddy!

Agree with Ant here, Eddy ..... only, I'm interested to see the K04, as that is in my near future ..... BRING THE POLO! :cool:

[seangti]

I trust guy will be monitoring charge temp/ pressure vs. Kwatw

This may be better raised in the dyno thread, though what will be measured this weekend? kwatw will be secondary to charge temps and pressure drop as that's the basis of this discussion and limits the variables (which there are still quite a few).

Out of curiousity, does air intake method impact IC temps or flow rate? i.e. PD160 Vs Stock Vs ram/pod style? (or am I getting carried away here?)

[Guy_H]

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/forums/f21/polo-vag-dyno-day-brisbane-saturday-august-25th-75349.html

Updated list.

We will certainly log what we can within reason on the day - it's pretty easy to check the boost requested vs actual & the intake temps - start & finish - so no problem there!

We need someone to collate the data & if anyone is an Excel wiz, then you can draw up all sorts of nice comparison graphs!

[Guy_H]

On the subject of intercoolers, there is some excellent information on design & construction here:

ARE Cooling (http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm)

ARE have been around for a long time & have built some prototype stuff for us over the years, they also initially worked with us on resizing & testing the APR core for the 9N Polo (unfortunately we discontinued it due to lack of demand).

Well worth the time to read it.

[noone]

So would there be a formula for whats beter... Lower temp, less boost ( cause of pressure) or higher temp, more boost.The forge unit is not good, since it has too much pressure drop, but given the charge temperature drop, shirley it is still beter than the smic.

Lots of variables, temp, humidity, lag, turbo, other restrictions. Even altitude can make a difference. Even perception, a better peak boost may appeal more to some than mid range torque.

I found that in summer the SMIC can not cool sufficiently when not moving (trafic lights, etc) whilst I didn't gain any power from the Forge system, it certainly helped my power in summer.

This is also impacted by the tune, knock sensors, etc, so a tune with more timing may be inclined to pull timing more easily with a little extra temp.

[kaanage]

On the subject of intercoolers, there is some excellent information on design & construction here:

ARE Cooling (http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm)

ARE have been around for a long time & have built some prototype stuff for us over the years, they also initially worked with us on resizing & testing the APR core for the 9N Polo (unfortunately we discontinued it due to lack of demand).

Well worth the time to read it.

Great link!!!

The Configuration (http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm#Configuration) sub section of the Tanks area shows that ARE don't consider the SEAT style layout (180 turn at the far end tank) to be sub optimal.
In fact...
The other design mostly is used in the USA., where tanks are on the top & bottom of the core, causing the charge air to make two 90 deg. bends. By using a second manometer with a long thin probe, we found that 80% of the intake charge flows through the end 25% of tubes on our first test tank, which was of reasonable length. Flow rate was good but cooling rate was terrible. When we doubled the length of the tank, 55% of the intake charge flowed through the end 25% of tubes & overall flow dropped 9%, indicating that this design has too have very long tanks, but should be able to be avoided anyway
.
.
.
A dual pass intercooler is heaps more efficient where both pipes are on the one side, but they require more height for the core.

But it looks like it all depends on the execution of many fine details that are dependant on many factors of the individual installation.

Whatever can be gleaned from the dyno day on this subject will be most worthwhile.

[Eddy]

Hoyhoy.

The Little Blue Girl will be there.

[VWindahouse]

Hoyhoy.

The Little Blue Girl will be there.

:respekt:

[noone]

I bit the bullet, getting the Seat cooler

I was interested in the THS cooler, but they didn't respond to my message through their site and the costs we've been calculating in this thread were based on being able to use the discount code which seems to not be applicable (so the core is about $600 if you get it through Paypal). $60 for the brackets

Seat Core with brackets and postage to Sydney burbs is under $500 from Darkside Developments website (http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/seatsport-intercooler-for-seat-ibiza-vw-polo-skoda-fabia.html) (cheaper than their Ebay store)

-edit- already contacted by darskide, great to deal with.

[kaanage]

Good deal.

And good find!! I've been on that site heaps looking at stuff but never looked at the 2nd page of the inlet parts :facepalm:
Ryan's pretty good, isn't he :)

[noone]

Found some interesting piping options, the hard bit with the Seat kit is the MAP sensor relocation.
Different forge pipe kitshttp://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=283030

[h100vw]

Forge Motorsport VAG MAP sensor mounting tube > Engine > A3 8L 1996-2003 > AUDI A3/S3 > VAG Specialists > PSI Tuning - VAG Specialists (http://www.psituning.com/product.php/19064/forge_motorsport_vag_map_sensor_mounting_tube)

Kinda hoping this will help me on the S3. 2 diameters available.

Gavin

[noone]

Nice, would we need to keep the OEM diam of the piping for this sensor, like with the MAF?

[h100vw]

Nice, would we need to keep the OEM diam of the piping for this sensor, like with the MAF?

From a physics point of view, we are just measuring temp, so the diameter doesn't make a difference that I can see. Going bigger will increase volume in the system (insignificantly) and maybe it'll be harder to integrate with the pipework you have?

Gavin

[Redliner]

Forge Motorsport VAG MAP sensor mounting tube > Engine > A3 8L 1996-2003 > AUDI A3/S3 > VAG Specialists > PSI Tuning - VAG Specialists (http://www.psituning.com/product.php/19064/forge_motorsport_vag_map_sensor_mounting_tube)

Kinda hoping this will help me on the S3. 2 diameters available.

Gavin

I ordered this:
NEW VW AUDI A3 A4 GOLF JETTA TT 1.8T INTERCOOLER MAP SENSOR FLANGE KIT 1.8T | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-VW-AUDI-A3-A4-GOLF-JETTA-TT-1-8T-INTERCOOLER-MAP-SENSOR-FLANGE-KIT-1-8T-/280957113995?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item416a59568b&vxp=mtr)

Have someone weld it on for you in the correct placement. If you copy the forge installation kit it needs to go on a 90 degree curved pipe and then you don't have to re-route your cables.

[noone]

Yeah, trying to avoid the local issues...
I'm working on a kit, so if this solution appeals to you but the effort / engineering involved is too much, I'm hoping to have one of our local forum members offer all the components (including the MAP sensor in the elbow) available for around the $250 mark. PM me if you are keen.

$750 for the Seat cooler and piping kit - Winning combo

[Redliner]

Yeah, trying to avoid the local issues...
I'm working on a kit, so if this solution appeals to you but the effort / engineering involved is too much, I'm hoping to have one of our local forum members offer all the components (including the MAP sensor in the elbow) available for around the $250 mark. PM me if you are keen.

$750 for the Seat cooler and piping kit - Winning combo


Thats about what mine came in at.
Ths Seat sport intercooler: $483
Pipes off ebay : $254
Brackets from Seres $60
Just under $800 for what seems to be the best value for money intercooler.

[Njay]

not sure if it will fit the polo but in the uk they rave about the welly intercooler for the a3/mk4 gti

[Stuwey]

Why not just buy this??

Forge Motorsport | Alloy Fabrication (http://www.forgemotorsport.co.uk/content.asp?inc=product&cat=0013&product=FMINTSSIBP)

[noone]

close to a grand landed.