Has anyone fitted a bigger Side Mount Intercooler (SMIC)?

[Blitzen]

Hey guys. I'm looking at taking the route less travelled, and I am looking at fitting an SMIC in place of the stock one.

I'm looking at it like this...
- No more boost piping means less boost drop.
- the thickness of an aftermarket SMIC is twice the thickness of stock, and about the same area of the Forge FMIC.

I have been looking at SMIC's for the Mk4 GTI, including Forge, Eurojet, Goodspeed, Godspeed, and Tyrolsport, and off eBay as well (this item looks exactly the same as the first 4 brands listed!!).

I think it was bfeboy that had a Bentley SMIC fitted to his car, but I was wondering if anyone has or knows of someone who has added a SMIC to their cars.

Cheers.

[Bug_racer]

Dont bother . gains are minor

[s4mmie]

I think that was the general consensus.
Might be worth it if you can cram a decent size core with good flow. Even then, you'll still need to get a good cold air supply to it.
I reckon a top mount with a MPS style hood intake would be nice, super short pipe runs, bigger cooler...

[team_v]

I think that was the general consensus.
Might be worth it if you can cram a decent size core with good flow. Even then, you'll still need to get a good cold air supply to it.
I reckon a top mount with a MPS style hood intake would be nice, super short pipe runs, bigger cooler...

Don't most of the subie top-mounts get replaced with front-mounts as they are inneficient?

[Tim]

mk4 gti side mount is not compatible with polo gti. pipes point in the wrong direction.
If you got creative you might be able to make it work but yeah. not a direct bolt on.

[s4mmie]

Don't most of the subie top-mounts get replaced with front-mounts as they are inneficient?

It wouldn't surprise me, heat soak, etc. Only reason I thought of a top mount is it would allow you to fit a much larger core and you'd end up with an even shorter intake pipe tract than the SMIC, which seems to be the only pro for keeping/upgrading the SMIC, less lag.

[Tim]

Since I have a stock polo side mount and an EJ mk4 unit on hand heres a pic to show the difference.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/05/mk4gtivspologtismic-1.jpg

I reckon upgrading the polo side mount is a great idea. Would love to see some testing They get excellent airflow from the front bar. The standard one is just teeny.

[Blitzen]

mk4 gti side mount is not compatible with polo gti. pipes point in the wrong direction.
If you got creative you might be able to make it work but yeah. not a direct bolt on.

Fully aware of this... Was going to get a little creative with the lower piping and play with the upper mounts, as well as doing a vent mod on the inner wheel arch for better flow though.... Hell, it saves a lot of the cutting of the inner bar that is needed for the front mount to fit.

Awesome pic Tim. I was looking at getting the Chinese version I found on EBay for about $230 landed, that way if it doesn't work out, it's no real biggy.

[s4mmie]

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/05/mk4gtivspologtismic-1.jpg.



:eek: Well that's a decent sized core! I haven't had a chance to poke around the stock SMIC location, but if you can fit something like that in there it may just be worth it. It looks like the core size has practically doubled.

If you compare the stock SMIC with an aftermarket unit, it looks like there's a similar difference in core size:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/07/FMICSMIC1-1.jpg

If you could channel air through the upgraded core nicely I think it would work a treat!

[kaanage]

Really interested in this thread as I hate the idea of extra lag being introduced by the extra plumbing needed for most FMICs.

But isn't airflow OUT of the rear area one of the big issues with the SMIC?

[gavs]

Yep, spot on Greg. We have performed testing on heat affected vehicles at work an it's not about the air you can get in, it's the expulsion of the heated air. You can have the best flowing front bar complete with sealed ducting but it won't do squat other than form an air dam if it can't escape.

The other thing to consider is velocity drop of the charge air with a bigger cooler. Bigger doesn't always mean better...

[kaanage]

I was looking at getting the Chinese version I found on EBay for about $230 landed, that way if it doesn't work out, it's no real biggy.

This one? (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VW-02-05-JETTA-Golf-GTI-MK4-1-8t-Turbo-BOLT-ON-Side-Mount-Intercooler-Kit-/370602169193?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item56499c5369)

[Tim]

Really interested in this thread as I hate the idea of extra lag being introduced by the extra plumbing needed for most FMICs.

But isn't airflow OUT of the rear area one of the big issues with the SMIC?

Yep that is one of the challenges but surely it would be possible to address.

[kaanage]

The other thing to consider is velocity drop of the charge air with a bigger cooler. Bigger doesn't always mean better...

That's the big beef with the Forge it seems - you get lower heat soak but a bigger pressure drop according to some (not according to others, though :confused:)

[s4mmie]

Vent-age:

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/forums/f127/intercooler-air-flow-6140-4.html
http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/forums/f14/diy-tt-style-vent-guard-mod-1-8ts-5019.html

[kaanage]

Yeah, I know about that but even with screens, I'm worried about the IC core being damaged by stuff thrown up in the guards.

[Blitzen]

This one? (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VW-02-05-JETTA-Golf-GTI-MK4-1-8t-Turbo-BOLT-ON-Side-Mount-Intercooler-Kit-/370602169193?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item56499c5369)

That's the one, and if you look at the pics for the Godspeed, Goodspeed, and a couple of others, they use that exact same pic in their ad's...

[Tim]

You wouldnt have to have the opening right behind the intercooler. The air just needs someone to flow to. It could be anywhere in front of or behind the wheel

[FLYINGTI]

Find a decent SMIC, one that has Good flow for Air in.
and Do the Audi TT Vent whilst you at it =)
Perfecto
:banana:

[s4mmie]

After seeing that core, if you could get one in the right orientation, I think it would be great. From previously reading a lottt of threads on the pog coolers, the main issue seems to be heat soak robbing power. The larger Forge FMIC units have a slight pressure drop while the APR ones are slightly more efficient, but both have longer pipe runs. If an upgraded SMIC held off heat soak comparable to an FMIC then I think it would be a winner.

[gavs]

Better still, you could just buy a CO2 refrigeration setup for the intercooler....

[noone]

I think a great solution lies in using the forge kit with a different core (assuming the core is as bad as people say).
The forge kit would be cheap to ship, probably fairly cheap from Forge if you organised a group buy and get better cores made up locally. I tried to get enough interest in replacement cores a while back, maybe more enthusiasm now? Sorry, this isnt really OT.

I think the Joey mod (wheel arch ventiation) is a great idea, once you take that lining out you see how little ventilation the cooler and the engine as a whole has. If there were more options for opening up the engine bay, it would be good to get as much airflow through, regardless of the cooler type. I did this before I got the front mount.

You're going to be somewhat limited in how much flow you are going to get through the lower side grills, Maybe remove the fog lights to help as much flow as possible, there are probably more side grill options that don't incorporate fogs.

Love the idea, always good to see an innovative idea pushed.

[s4mmie]

Noone, is there a forge replacement kit for the stock pipes? I thought there was but couldn't find it...
Did you get far finding someone to make up replacement cores?
If someone can measure up the stock core and the larger mk4, I'll see if I can get some group prices to make up a larger core with the correct orientation.

I'm very interested in this option as I think it would work out far cheaper than an aftermarket FMIC, with shorter pipes, and with adequate ventilation (possible even a high-cfm triggered fan) to prevent heat soak I think we should see comparable performance/consistency gains.

[LunchboxVRS]

Don't most of the subie top-mounts get replaced with front-mounts as they are inneficient?

Not at all, there are bigger top mounts that are capable of flowing enough for over 200kw ATW for subies. the killer is the scoop size especially on the liberty and the stock turbo is only good for about 200kw depending on the transmission. its more about consistancy. a thicker core with the same frontage will only give you a hp or to more but will allow you to sprint off from the lights all day without having to much loose of power because of heat soak where as with the stock top mount is only good for a sprint or 2. a front mount will give you some lag but is the only way your going to push big power and to get that big power you need a big turbo anyway which is going to have more lag again so you wont notice the little bit from the extra piping. front mounts for rex's are just easy and cheap as there are so many out there. Thats my rant anyway

[Blitzen]

I'll be doing the vent mod this weekend actually.

[vwthunder]

Been tempted to get one of these for ages

TRV-185 Treadstone Intercooler Dodge Chevy Nissan Scion | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TRV-185-Treadstone-Intercooler-Dodge-Chevy-Nissan-Scion-/320734439134?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item4aad4326de)

[Guy_H]

I think a great solution lies in using the forge kit with a different core (assuming the core is as bad as people say).
The forge kit would be cheap to ship, probably fairly cheap from Forge if you organised a group buy and get better cores made up locally. I tried to get enough interest in replacement cores a while back, maybe more enthusiasm now? Sorry, this isnt really OT.

I think the Joey mod (wheel arch ventiation) is a great idea, once you take that lining out you see how little ventilation the cooler and the engine as a whole has. If there were more options for opening up the engine bay, it would be good to get as much airflow through, regardless of the cooler type. I did this before I got the front mount.

You're going to be somewhat limited in how much flow you are going to get through the lower side grills, Maybe remove the fog lights to help as much flow as possible, there are probably more side grill options that don't incorporate fogs.

Love the idea, always good to see an innovative idea pushed.

I'm pretty sure its not the core thats the main problem, its the "U" shaped design & poor end tanks that cause most of the problems.

[noone]

Sure Guy, I'm describing the central elements as opposed to the piping. you are likely correct about the the core is fed.

As for the forge kit, I think we once had a price on it, its not a normal kit, but I don't see why they wouldn't sell us 1/2 the kit. This will determine where the in and out points are on the new cooler if we had one made.

There is a guide on their website, pretty comprehensive for images of all the kit.

If there is real interest in this, someone might want to open one of the old threads so this SMIC thread can run its course.

[Dodgy]

I'll be doing the vent mod this weekend actually.

Where did you find the vent? I'm seriously thinking of pinching the one out of the old man's audi, I don't think he'll know it's missing.

[jasn78]

VwThunder that looks exactly like the core I used, note it will have to be cut down to fit.

[Bflat]

I just took my arch liners out.

[FLYINGTI]

Where did you find the vent? I'm seriously thinking of pinching the one out of the old man's audi, I don't think he'll know it's missing.


LOL
Dodgy<-----User name for a reason :P

ha Just kidding

[Blitzen]

Where did you find the vent? I'm seriously thinking of pinching the one out of the old man's audi, I don't think he'll know it's missing.

Bunnings...

[vwthunder]

I just took my arch liners out.

Thats because your soOo LOooWZ oN bOttLe tOpS :emo_baghead:

[seangti]

Could a top mount style of intercooler not be retrofitted with appropriate mounting brackets? Subaru cores are quite long and skinny so that wouldn't fit, but something like a Nissan patrol, holden jackeroo which is more square. Mazda MPS has quite a large core, so wouldn't expect that to fit either.

Just had a look on the PWR site, they don't appear to have a suitable core.

[Blitzen]

I had a poke around and had a look around the intercooler today, and found that I think there is enough room to fit the aftermarket Mk4 SMIC. A couple of 45 degree bends will have to be fitted to the tank openings for the piping to work out.

[blitDz]

Been tempted to get one of these for ages

TRV-185 Treadstone Intercooler Dodge Chevy Nissan Scion | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TRV-185-Treadstone-Intercooler-Dodge-Chevy-Nissan-Scion-/320734439134?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item4aad4326de)

That doesn't look too bad at all...

[vwthunder]

That doesn't look too bad at all...

They make different size ones too

[noone]

Is that a good brand? Seems like a lot if it's just another eBay one...

I keep wondering if 2slim ones with a u bend for the return would work, like 2 of these http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m570.l1313&_nkw=300553445432&_sacat=See-All-Categories

[vwthunder]

They seem to be better than the cheap godspeed ones or whatever it is

This guy is using one on a Supercharged Mustang

Treadstone Intercooler installed, converted to Blow-Thru MAF and Kenne Bell BAP (http://www.mikefordmustang.com/pictures/treadstone-intercooler/treadstone-intercooler.php)


http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/view.phtml?f_cat=Intercoolers%3A+Intercoolers

[vwthunder]

The Treadstone name has become synonymous with quality intercoolers over the past few years, and we pride our selves on it! We manufacture our bar and plate cores with strict guidelines, and are specifically designed to maximize cooling using the most surface area possible in any given space. Our cores give the perfect balance between heat exchanging efficiency and flow. Our internal fin structure design is top notch, and is where the most important changes can be made to enhance the cooling rate. Treadstone intercooler cores feature a high heat-dissipating "Inner fin" design. This is ideal for medium to high boost levels on higher horsepower or upgraded turbo engines. The larger internal surface area provides superior cooling efficiency for radiating excessive heat and minimizing heat soak. In general, these design characteristics is what gives Treadstone Intercoolers the leading edge in intercooler technology

[s4mmie]

Has anyone pursued water to air intercoolers here? It would be easy enough to mount a small radiator in the front with the core taking up the original SMIC space. I'm going to make some cardboard cutouts of some cores and trial fit a few different designs.

[Smead]

I have thought about it. There's a SEAT Ibiza here in Canberra with an engine swap to a Polo GTI engine running it. Beauty of water to air is you can mount the cooler anywhere. The kit costs roughly $300

[jasn78]

Snead the other and the major positive for water to air is shorter piping and more consistent temperatures as water is less heat conducive than air

[noone]

Where would you put it on the Polo? Not much space

[kaanage]

Has anyone pursued water to air intercoolers here? It would be easy enough to mount a small radiator in the front with the core taking up the original SMIC space. I'm going to make some cardboard cutouts of some cores and trial fit a few different designs.

Yeah, I did some preliminary investigations as I liked the idea of shorter air piping for less lag plus the temps should be more stable as jasn78 stated (if not as ultimately cool in ideal circumstances).

The main issues were

Where does the air/water heat exchanger go (as noone asked)
It needs a water pump with the proper flow rate and all the associated switching/wiring
There's enough weight over the front end without hanging more water out there

[s4mmie]

From what I can see the only difficult part is sorting out a core that will fit.

1. The heat exchanger will easily fit where a front mount should.
2. Water pump should be easy enough, switched to ignition.
3. With the larger cores and heat exchangers I think this would be a valid concern, but with a smaller setup on our cars I don't think you'd even tell. Maybe, possibly, on the track.

If I can mock up a core that will fit I'll post my findings.

[Sharkie]

Post #9, 2nd pic is of my exact FMIC. Its actually a pic I took, lol.

I have no noticable lag, excellent power retention (48 degree intake air temp on a hot day after 3 dyno runs) and all logs show boost is exactly what is requested, so no losses there either. The piping is maybe 5cm longer than before .....

I'm not selling these (well not atm) either, so no interest there for me, merely stating a good FMIC is worth its weight in gold and without all the headaches (and costs) caused by upgrading the SMIC.

and BTW, I picked up 7kw atw after fitting this FMIC, so its not just keeping power, but being better flowing adding power!

EDIT: My core is also more than 150% bigger than the SMIC.

[noone]

Was that the frozen something brand / make?

[kaanage]

Sharkie's is air/air

Frozenboost (http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?products_id=1006)is air/water(/air)


From what I can see the only difficult part is sorting out a core that will fit.
What you refer to as the core is what I was thinking as the air/water heat exchanger (and what you were referring to as the heat exchanger, I had tagged in my mind as the intercooling radiator)

[gavs]

What would the weight penalty be like for one of those setups though? ~6-7kgs out past the front axle extra?

[Hilal]

You can find these all over eBay..

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2012/06/intercooler_type9_picture-1.jpg

Full Kit - www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?products_id=1006