To DSG or not to DSG?

[ExV8]

I am about to order a new Golf GTi, but the transmission choice is doing my head in.

My current daily drive in and out of the Melbourne CBD is an auto, but up until 1 week ago I had a manual 'toy' that was the weekend car and also set up for the track.

For a variety of reasons, I now need 2 cars to do the one job - daily drive and toy.

I am getting an MY12 so that I can turn the ESP off, but I'm just not sure about DSG and the track. Thoughts?

Also, I haven't sampled a manual GTi yet.

BTW, I did an auto to manual conversion on the toy and I will NEVER do that again.

---------- Post added at 12:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 PM ----------

Oops - I mean 1 car to do 2 jobs!

[AdamD]

I'd personally suggest you go the DSG - I find it's the perfect combination of daily drive transmission and fun thrash shifter. My GTI's my first ever non-manual car, but it's a revelation. I also spend a good 50% of my driving time in manual mode, and shift exclusively with the paddles. The only thing I miss is occasional clutch work and heel-toeing.

Have a read of this thread for a ton of opinions: http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/forums/f112/dsg-problems-complaints-dislikes-loveit-41977.html

[brimway]

Agree with AdamD coments. DSG offers the more options than a clutch manual or a torque converter auto. Even better if you fit extended paddles, I can highly recommend the S2T performance paddles.

[gareth_oau]

There is no doubt that a DSG is quicker to 100 - if thats important to you.

There is also a big advantage in not having to operate a clutch in peak-hour, stop start traffic - if thats important to you.

i believe that the DSGs can be less than smooth on take-off during the same peak hour traffic.

If the above arent one way or another, important to you, then, in my personal view, you would get a lot more personal enjoyment and satisfaction from shifting a manual, assuming you can do it without kangarooing all the time.


And with the money you save from buying a manual, you can buy the after-market short-shifter that the GTI would need, and you can buy your self a playstation, so you can press buttons till your heart's content!

[gavs]

i believe that the DSGs can be less than smooth on take-off during the same peak hour traffic.


This is a common misconception introduced by the media because all the press vehicles haven't had time to lean the shift patterns etc that apply to your driving style. You want it smooth at the lights in peak hour? Drive it that way and the dsg computer learns that. YOu want it rough and jerky, then boot it off at every set of lights you can and then it will respond accordingly. To ensure your learned driving style is remembered, if you want to boot it along, drive in S or manual so you don't confuse the computer, simple as that:)

[entice]

DSG = pop pop from exhaust under power
Manual = none of that

I purchased mine with DSG...
The aural orgasm was enough to sway me

But my mk 1 mx5 is my manual toy!

[joel0407]

Do it.

I've come from a manual WRX to a DSG Yeti. I gotta say I prefer the 6 speed Yeti over the 7 speed Tiguan.

Happy Days

[Martin]

I absolutley love the DSG, smooth (seemless most of the time) and fast
Clam when I have the parents in the car, agressive when I'm booting it
Manual/Sport/Drive options - all work exceptionally well
Very easy to drive and more time with hands on the steering wheel

Will never buy an automatic (with torque converter) or manual again - has to be dual clutch

[Tom87]

The manual GTI is nice and no effort at all to drive but getting a GTI with DSG transforms the car into something just that little bit special.

[Frazza]

This is always a tough one and i'm one of those people who used to bag DSG's, call them AUTO's and say stuff like "It's not a real drivers gearbox", "If you want to be part of the driving experience get a manual" and all that stuff because i only ever drove manuals and i drove a DSG once ages ago to the shops and didn't think it was that good.

However, the modern DSG gearbox is bloody awesome, it transforms the car and really is a joy to drive in any conditions, yes you do need to learn to drive it differently same as you would in a manual car but the DSG gives you the option to either sludge around in "D" or spirited driving in "M" or "S", if you get a manual is always a manual you have no choice.

Most of all the modern day super and hyper cars are now using DSG type transmission, race cars use paddle shift transmission where the clutch is only used to take off so don't feel like you are getting a lesser car for choosing a DSG, each transmission has it's place and each are just as good as the other, it all comes down to your driving preference.

I say go the DSG ;)

[BTJ]

I'm no race driver but I just find the VW manual so damn easy to drive that the whole "driving in traffic" thing is a non issue.

Also, the DSG has had its share of faults and I'd personally hate to see my car crippled from a bad DSG.

Having driven the R and GTI with DSG at track days it is awesome fun and by no means a cop out in terms of the driver's car, but I'd still take a manual because they work, they feel great and you save a chunk of money that could pay for all number of things (like a tune or an aforementioned playstation with all the DSG you could ever want!)

my $0.02

[Diesel_vert]

I am about to order a new Golf GTi, but the transmission choice is doing my head in.

My current daily drive in and out of the Melbourne CBD is an auto, but up until 1 week ago I had a manual 'toy' that was the weekend car and also set up for the track.

For a variety of reasons, I now need 2 cars to do the one job - daily drive and toy.

I am getting an MY12 so that I can turn the ESP off, but I'm just not sure about DSG and the track. Thoughts?


It's always a toss up when it comes to these decisions - one can find a dozen reasons why auto/man is better/worse.

As most of the subjective material has been covered, here are some practical things to consider:

Maintenance:
There is a 60k/4year oil change for the 6-speed DSG, which costs $300-$500 depending on the workshop.
Haven't priced a manual gearbox oil change, but probably not as expensive nor as frequent.

Reliability:
On balance, any manual gearbox would be superior in this regard, due to its relative simplicity as a device.
Ease and cost of repairs usually favours the manual, but not always a given (esp. the "ease" part!).
Easier to abuse and kill a manual than a DSG through user error (you may not be the only one who drives it).
The mechatronics unit did fail on the early cars, but less common now (esp. for the 6-speed DSG).
Also depends on the next factor...

How long do you plan on keeping the car?
If it needs to last for over 10 years, chances are you're better off with a manual.
Between 5-10 years, you could go either way.
5 years or under, not a factor due to new 150k/5year drivetrain warranty.

How often do you plan on racing it?
The occasional track day should be fine.
Not sure how the DSG would hold up if you went every week. (?)
Maybe someone with extensive track experience can comment here?

Resale:
Like any second hand car in Australia, the resale value with be higher with an auto,
though that advantage decreases as the car ages, when condition starts to become more important.
Not really an important factor for me, but thought I'd mention it.


Also, I haven't sampled a manual GTi yet.

Better sort out a test drive then.

I'm sure you'll be happy with either choice, but you really need to test them out for yourself.

[dArK5HaD0w]

some DSG facts & figures......

0.4 liters fuel per 100 kilometers fuel savings on Golf TSI (122 PS) plus 7-speed DSG compared to identically powered counterpart with 6-speed manual transmission
1.7 liters of oil are at work in the 7-speed DSG
6 models can currently be ordered with 7-speed DSG
6.5 liters of oil are at work in the 6-speed DSG
70 kilograms is the weight of the 7-speed DSG
93 kilograms is the weight of the 6-speed DSG
105 PS is the power output of the currently “smallest” Volkswagen engine with DSG
140 degrees (maximum) hot oil surrounds the control module (mechatronics) on the 6-speed DSG
226 employees work in DSG production
250 Newton-meter is the maximum torque of engines that are paired with Volkswagen’s 7-speed DSG
300 PS is the power output of the currently “largest” Volkswagen engine with DSG
350 Newton-meter is the maximum torque of engines that are paired with Volkswagen’s 6-speed DSG
750 7-speed DSGs are already being produced every day at transmission plant in Kassel
1,500 6-speed DSGs leave the Kassel transmission plant daily
2003: first 6-speed DSG is introduced (on the Golf R32)
2004: 6-speed DSG is used in combination with a turbodiesel for the first time (on Golf TDI and Touran TDI with 105 PS and 140 PS, respectively)
2004: new Golf GTI offers a TSI paired with DSG for the first time
2005: first Bugatti Veyron 16.4 with DSG is delivered
2007: new Golf TSI with 122 PS and 7-speed DSG already places 2nd in Environmental Automobile List of the Verkehrsclub Deutschland (VCD; “German Travel Club”) for the compact class
2007: Golf GT Sport with 170 PS strong TSI plus 6-speed DSG wins Technological Innovation of the Year award in Barcelona
2007: at the end of this year series production was started for the 7-speed DSG
2008: new Golf TSI with 122 PS and 7-speed DSG earns “Yellow Angel 2008? award by ADAC in “Innovation and Environment” category
150,000 6-speed DSGs this DSG production milestone was surpassed at the Kassel transmission plant in 2005
400,000 is the number of Volkswagens sold worldwide with DSG in 2007
1,000,000 6-speed DSGs this DSG production milestone was surpassed at the Kassel transmission plant in 2007
2,000,000 is the number of test kilometers covered by the 7-speed DSG over the course of its development

[Tom87]

5 years or under, not a factor due to new 150k/5year drivetrain warranty.

How often do you plan on racing it?
The occasional track day should be fine.
Not sure how the DSG would hold up if you went every week. (?)



Warranty is not a consideration if the vehicle is to be raced (or modified)>

[Diesel_vert]

some DSG facts & figures......

2,000,000 is the number of test kilometres covered by the 7-speed DSG over the course of its development

If that's true, then I'm even more disappointed with all the issues regarding the 7-speed DSG. I'm sure our moderator gavs would love to elaborate.


Warranty is not a consideration if the vehicle is to be raced (or modified)>

Ah, very true, I forgot about that.

But if it's just a couple of track sessions a year (don't tell VW!) I wouldn't let that sway his decision either way.

However, if the car is going be used for proper racing, then I really think he'd be better off getting a manual.

[gavs]

If that's true, then I'm even more disappointed with all the issues regarding the 7-speed DSG. I'm sure our moderator gavs would love to elaborate.



Ah, very true, I forgot about that.

But if it's just a couple of track sessions a year (don't tell VW!) I wouldn't let that sway his decision either way.

However, if the car is going be used for proper racing, then I really think he'd be better off getting a manual.

Ha ha, jus saw this post!! :) yes, I know, Johnny-come-(very)lately!

2,000,000kms of development kms on the 7spd dsg?! Must have been stuck in 7th at 150kph for the 1,999,999.5kms after it got up to speed. They work great at that point of the power range:)

[Peter Jones]

I've driven a DSG around Sandown.

Best approach seemed to be to allow the DSG to do the up shifting but use the paddles to manually down shift as you approach the corners.

[Guy_H]

I've driven a DSG around Sandown.

Best approach seemed to be to allow the DSG to do the up shifting but use the paddles to manually down shift as you approach the corners.

Spot on.