Dealer used Havoline 5W-40 12month service, 2.0 TSI

[RSOK]

Just had the first scheduled service on my 2010 Octavia RS, the job sheet from the dealer shows they used Havoline 5W-40.

Now I believe this oil meets VW 502 spec, but given the handbook recommends 504 spec oil for this 2.0 TSI engine, should this be a concern?

I know oz cars are not on the variable service intervals, so 'long-life' oil such as 504 may not be so critical (and I change my oil every 6 months so I guess I'm not too concerned for my own engine)... but should dealers be using the 504 oil spec as recommended by the manufacturer in the handbook?

[Transporter]

I would ask VW Australia about it. I believe that they should be using VW504.00/507.00 oils only. But it's worth while to ask first, before you question the dealer.
VW502.00 is old specs oil from more than a decade ago.

[kaanage]

Tell your dealer that the Caltex site recommends (using the product picker for brand/model (http://www.datateck.com.au/lube/caltx_au/buttons/default.asp?section=1)) that your car should be using Havoline Ultra V 5W-30 (http://www.caltex.com.au/ProductsAndServices/Pages/ProductDescription.aspx?ID=1789) which is 504.00-507.00 compliant

There's a note there that says "May also use HAVOLINE SYNTHETIC 5W-40" but I'd be pushing the case for the recommended one.

[Corey_R]

Yeah - I'd also be checking the manual of the car to see which they recommend. There is no way I'd be happy with the dealer using inferior products with the amount most of them charge the for servicing :)

[brad]

how much did they charge for the oil?

502.00 is also recomended by the manufacturer.

This is a scan from my owners manual.
As you can see, 501.01, 502.00 & 504.00 are all listed as suitable oils for QG0/QG2 service intervals without any caveats, asterix, footnotes or the words "good, better, best". This implies that on a fixed service interval, using any of those three oil types isn't going to make a lot of difference.
As you can also see, the diesel selection does have a number of footnotes and I believe that oil choice is quite critical in this case. The QG1 petrol engine requirements are also quite specific and you'd be mad to use anything but 504.00 if you were going beyond 15,000km.

So to answer the question, I don't believe the dealer has done anything wrong or against VW policy.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e14/subabrad/th_oilrecommendations.jpg (http://s36.photobucket.com/albums/e14/subabrad/?action=view&current=oilrecommendations.jpg)

Does your Owners Manual have the same table or is it different? I've asked a few people to scan the appropriate page out of their owners manual (to see what has changed since when i bought my 1.8TSI) & nobody ever does.

If we were in the UK, the workshop standard is that on fixed services they use 502.00 & on variable they use 504.00. The customer can request that 504.00 is up-specced at the fixed service interval if they wish to pay the premium. People over there get pretty annoyed when the dealer uses 504.00 without asking as they feel the cost difference is significant enough that it's worth using 502.00.

BTW: This is a scan of the oil analysis on 504.00 after 15,000km. It's like new.
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e14/subabrad/th_oilanalysis.jpg (http://s36.photobucket.com/albums/e14/subabrad/?action=view&current=oilanalysis.jpg)

[RSOK]

Thanks for the responses guys.

As Brad says, I'm pretty sure 502 spec won't be harming my engine given a) I change oil every 6 months and b) even if I didn't, I won't be exceeding 15,000kms annually [fyi for my 6-monthly oil changes I use 504 spec Penrite Enviro+ 5W-30].

I was more curious than anything as to whether, for example, the dealer's use of 502 spec oil could land them in hot water should engine trouble of any sort develop... I would have thought a dealership service would stick by the newer oil spec, ie 504, to avoid any potential claims arising from using 'old spec' oil.

I'm awaiting a response from Skoda and the dealer to my query, will let you know what they say.

Brad, my owner's manual shows same table.

[brad]

Therefore sticking strictly by the handbook recomendation uses either 501.01, 502.00 or 504.00. No? All will maintain warranty.

[Diesel_vert]

If it were my car, I would not use 502 oils (let alone 501.01!) in a TSI engine, regardless of service intervals or regime. However, as 502 is deemed acceptable by the manufacturer (and therefore warranty-safe), you can't really protest against what the dealer has done - unless you specifically asked and paid for 504 oil but didn't get it, or other such shenanigans.

Out of interest, how much did they charge for Havoline 5W-40?

[RSOK]

Not planning to protest, just curious is all.

Dealer charge was $75 for 4.9L.

That's what I normally pay for 5L of Penrith Enviro+ (VW 504 approved) when I do the in-between oil changes!! But I suppose the 'dealer stamp' in your service book is worth a premium?

[Diesel_vert]

Thanks for the price.

In regards to service, you can always supply your own oil, and provided that it's 502 or 504 approved, I'm sure they'll still stamp the book.

[brad]

Dealer charge was $75 for 4.9L.

I think that's a bit rich. My dealer was charging me $75 for Valvoline 504.00 (fleet discount + some other loyalty discount they had).

Dealer prices for 504.00 will generally be $75-$95. I would expect any 502.00 to be in the region of $50-70 from the dealer.

For those of you that want some competitively priced Mobil1 502.00 (I don't believe they have any 504.00 approved oils yet)
gllubricants.com

[RSOK]

Thanks for the price.

In regards to service, you can always supply your own oil, and provided that it's 502 or 504 approved, I'm sure they'll still stamp the book.

Think I will do that in future, $75 for 502 spec from dealer or $75 for 504 spec supplied by me... no brainer really.

[RSOK]

[QUOTE=brad;641374]I think that's a bit rich. My dealer was charging me $75 for Valvoline 504.00 (fleet discount + some other loyalty discount they had).

Seems that way doesn't it, but I wasn't about to argue seeing as how it was my first dealer service experience and the overall customer service experience was quite good. I'll know to supply my own 504.00 oil at the 24 month service.

[Corey_R]

Yeah - last time I was at a Liqui-Moly stockist, I bought a 5L bottle for $80 and I intend to provide that to whoever does my service.

[Diesel_vert]

I would expect any 502.00 to be in the region of $50-70.

Prices can vary considerably more than that because it's an older spec. You can formulate a 502 oil that only meets the minimum test requirements (which IMO wouldn't be that good for its intended applications), or you can formulate a very good 502 oil that far exceeds these requirements (bolstered by other manufacturer specs).

The problem is that if you're looking for quality, the onus is on you to pick out an excellent 502 oil as opposed to an average 502 oil - which can be difficult to do objectively, especially when it comes to a murky subject like this.

However, with 504/507 oils, the tests are supposedly more stringent so the minimum requirements for a "pass" are much higher, which means that choosing an oil becomes easier for the enthusiast-minded consumer.

[brad]

I quite like that logic Mr Diesel Vert.

I just had an email back from GLlubricants.


Yes, the Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 meets these [VW504.00/507.00] specs. We are current out of stock for it, further stock is with the next shipment ETA Sydney port 5/4/2011.

based on his other prices it will be between $57-$62 for 5L

[Transporter]

They have to cater for the 3rd world countries (and the fleet) as well, so it has to be there that the engine can also use low specs oil (the same goes for the fuels).

I see it (and it has always been like that) in many other brands where there is 16V variable valve timing 4 cyl. engine and it can use 15W40 or even 20W50 oil.
Ten years ago they even specified that you could use SF oil in some car makes, it wasn't easy to get (obsolete) and the car manufacturers new that it would lead to the excessive sludging. :duh:

[RSOK]

UPDATE: got a call from Skoda Assist (Volkswagen Customer Service) in response to my email 3 weeks ago (they apologised for late response, said they're understaffed) saying that their Tech people would like a copy of the job sheet that the dealer gave me, showing the brand and type of oil used... they will then get back to me with a response on whether the 5W-40 Havoline oil was appropriate for the dealer to have used.

Will let you know once I get a response.

[kaanage]

My Golf just had its first service and the dealer used Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 - another case of using 502 rather than 504 spec oil :mad:

[RSOK]

UPDATE: got a call from Skoda Assist (VAG Aust) yesterday, advising me that they don't know 'exactly which Havoline 5W-40' the dealer used, as there's 'a few different Havoline oils around'. So they can't really tell me whether it was OK for the dealer to have used it for the service. They advised me to check with the dealer myself as to exactly which Havoline 5W-40 was used.

In other words, instead of VAG Aust contacting the dealer involved to have a chat with the Service guys and establish whether this dealer is using correct-spec oil to service VAG vehicles (which I thought would have been of concern to them), they've left it to the customer to do my own digging. Fairly inept and p!$$-weak if you ask me.

I told them not to worry, I've got this enquiry on record so any issues I have with my engine down the track I may just refer back to this little episode for a potential claim (fingers crossed that doesn't become necessary!!).

[brad]

I had the same reaction from VW when I had a few small issues/queries - "go talk to the dealer, no we won't talk to them" VW don't appear to be interested in getting involved in technical issues at all.

[RSOK]

I don't understand such apathy from Volkswagen as regards the servicing of their products. Surely a manufacturer must have an interest in their dealer network servicing their cars correctly so as to avoid unecessary and potentially expensive warranty claims? Not to mention the potential fallout and loss of goodwill from a customer who may be significantly inconvenienced by having their car off the road for an extended period as a result of a dealer not using approved servicing parts/fluids?

For all I know, the oil my dealer used meets 502 spec and that'll do me, no biggie really given that I change oil every 6 months anyway. But surely I would have thought VAG would have been a little more interested to satisfy themselves about a technical matter that might cause them grief down the track. Seems not.

Still, I'm enjoying my Octavia RS a much as ever, so on we go with life... show me the next set of bends and all this is forgotten!

[craig_the_german]

Did anyone read this?
http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f112/why-you-need-use-504-507-oils-fsi-tsi-tdi-engines-47140.html
Might get you asking more questions of your dealers

[kaanage]

Yes, we've posted in this thread BECAUSE we've read that thread

[RSOK]

Yep, what kaanage said! Of course we've read that info and lots more besides... thus why we're concerned about our dealers using 502-spec oil when the manual suggests 504-spec should be the go.

[Diesel_vert]

I don't understand such apathy from Volkswagen as regards the servicing of their products. Surely a manufacturer must have an interest in their dealer network servicing their cars correctly so as to avoid unecessary and potentially expensive warranty claims? Not to mention the potential fallout and loss of goodwill from a customer who may be significantly inconvenienced by having their car off the road for an extended period as a result of a dealer not using approved servicing parts/fluids?

For all I know, the oil my dealer used meets 502 spec and that'll do me, no biggie really given that I change oil every 6 months anyway. But surely I would have thought VAG would have been a little more interested to satisfy themselves about a technical matter that might cause them grief down the track. Seems not.

To me that can either indicate a lack of knowledge, poor communication from HQ in Germany, or both.

I don't think VW Australia is deliberately obfuscating knowledge, but then again they're a business, not your best friend. If the information they've received indicates that either 502 or 504 is okay for warranty purposes, then that's what they'll tell their dealers and customers.

It then remains up to said dealers and customers to choose which oil to use.


Still, I'm enjoying my Octavia RS a much as ever, so on we go with life... show me the next set of bends and all this is forgotten!

A "spirited" drive cures many ills I say. :D

[Transporter]

I would say that using 502.00 oil in the cars that are serviced once a year and driven under severe driving conditions is asking for the trouble. I'd like to see how that would affect the emissions in the long run and ask the question why they bothered to develop new oil and use it right from the factory? :?

VW had the engine sludge problem not so long time ago and also classification, which oil can be marked as synthetic has changed not so long time ago, so the 502 classified oil doesn't have to be the true synthetic oil and many mineral oils will have VW502.00 on the label.

[kaanage]

My Golf just had its first service and the dealer used Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 - another case of using 502 rather than 504 spec oil :mad:

And it's just happened again :facepalm:

After discussing what oil would be used for the servicing of our MkVI TDi and being assured by the service rep that it would be 507 spec 5w30, the invoice from Camberwell Volkswagen reads $68 of 5w40 Ultra Helix oil :mad:

Methinks they may get a visit from me soon :rifle:

[Umai Naa!!]

Demand they change it to the correct oil, as well as a new sump plug and filter, free of charge. This is not on.

A lot of dealers, especially multi-franchise ones, go to a lot of trouble to ensure all their bases are covered in regards to oils. While others seem to pick a one-size-fits-all oil and call it quits at that. It's bad enough that private shops do it. I really do worry for some customers when it comes time to put a claim in on a sludged engine, a blocked DPF/Cat, or high oil usage. For those that end up in such circumstances, it'll be a tough time trying to get someone to put their hand up for the repair bill.

If in doubt, do your research, and supply the oil yourself.

[Diesel_vert]

While others seem to pick a one-size-fits-all oil and call it quits at that.

If a shop was going down that path, all they'd need is VW 504.00/507.00 to cover all bases.

The only exception is VW 503.00/506.00/506.01 for some R5 TDI and V10 TDI engines, but that's it.

Why pick anything else for a one-size-fits-all oil?

I don't understand these shops...

[Umai Naa!!]

You wouldn't put 504/507 in a MK3 Golf, for instance. Slightly overkill.

I was more referring to multi-franchise dealerships. Two that I worked for, had underestimated the size of the room required to store all the different drums of oil required to suit the various brands they dealt with, when they built their new workshops. Some brands required up to 4 different specific engine oils. Considering that ideally, you'd need 2x205L drums for each, that's a lot of oil to have to find space for. Then there's the costs involved, where an average 205L drum of oil is around $1200.

[Lucas_R]

Guys - a simple way to put an end to this issue......buy your own oil and supply that to the dealership for your service. My car had its first 12 month service today, and I provided my own 5L bottle of LiquiMoly 4200 TopTec (504/507 approved) for them to use. The dealership was perfectly happy with this arrangement. When I picked up my car this afternoon, my nearly empty bottle of oil was in the car with about 1/2 a litre still left inside.

This way, I know exactly what oil has been used in my car, and I've got a better quality oil in my motor than what the dealership would have used.

[Diesel_vert]

You wouldn't put 504/507 in a MK3 Golf, for instance. Slightly overkill.

You are right. I wouldn't call that an appropriate recommendation either.

But I reckon most people, who have a car that's getting on a bit with its warranty long expired, wouldn't get it serviced at a dealership anyway, considering the prices they charge nowadays (or in the rare case someone brings in such a car, just run down to the nearest shop and buy a bottle of 10W-40 or something :P).

In any case, I'd hazard a guess and say it would it make for cheaper inventory and storage costs.


Guys - a simple way to put an end to this issue......buy your own oil and supply that to the dealership for your service. My car had its first 12 month service today, and I provided my own 5L bottle of LiquiMoly 4200 TopTec (504/507 approved) for them to use. The dealership was perfectly happy with this arrangement. When I picked up my car this afternoon, my nearly empty bottle of oil was in the car with about 1/2 a litre still left inside.

This way, I know exactly what oil has been used in my car, and I've got a better quality oil in my motor than what the dealership would have used.

So one pays a small fortune to get their car serviced at an official or franchised dealership, only to have them use the wrong oil - thus requiring the owner to do additional research (which not everyone enjoys) and purchase the correct oil in their own time.

Hmm... not exactly what you'd call great service, is it?

[kaanage]

That's why I asked the service rep quite specifically what oil they were going to use, beforehand. If they had told me that they were going to use 502/505 spec oil, then I would have bought some 504/507 spec oil and supplied it to them.

It really irks me that Camberwell VW's service reps don't seem to know what the workshop is up to.

As a side issue, my wife is severely annoyed that she was made to wait for about half an hour before the car was ready for her to pick up, despite us having told them that we would pick it up around 5pm (we left it with them prior to 8am so it's not like we were rushing them) and been assured that it would be ready if she turned up at that time. Now she's back to talking about Toyotas and Mitsubishis. :facepalm:

[Diesel_vert]

As a side issue, my wife is severely annoyed that she was made to wait for about half an hour before the car was ready for her to pick up, despite us having told them that we would pick it up around 5pm (we left it with them prior to 8am so it's not like we were rushing them) and been assured that it would be ready if she turned up at that time. Now she's back to talking about Toyotas and Mitsubishis. :facepalm:

Well, taken in isolation, workshops can get unexpectedly busy at times (planned schedules aren't always perfect) so in my mind that's more forgiveable - if it means work is done properly instead of just trying to meet deadlines.

Though in this instance, you could argue that the work wasn't done properly.

[kaanage]

Well next time we'll tell them we want the car ready for 3pm so we can be assured that it's ready at 5pm :mad:

[Diesel_vert]

Well next time we'll tell them we want the car ready for 3pm so we be assured that it's ready at 5pm :mad:

That's the spirit! :D

[Umai Naa!!]

On a side note, when you agree to a pick-up time, don't arrange to leave the car all day. If they see 5pm as the pick-up time, your car instantly goes to the bottom of the pile. It WILL be rushed through at the very last minute.

Tell them you'll pick it up at, say 1pm, but turn up your leisure. Chances are, they wont phone you when it's done anyway, so they can't call you out on your tardiness.

[Lucas_R]

So one pays a small fortune to get their car serviced at an official or franchised dealership, only to have them use the wrong oil - thus requiring the owner to do additional research (which not everyone enjoys) and purchase the correct oil in their own time.

Hmm... not exactly what you'd call great service, is it?

Hmmm not exactly....you've made a lot of assumptions. I paid $195 + the oil I bought (so $270 in total) for my service today at my Audi dealership. My brother works there so i get trade price. Much cheaper than what most people have posted in the servicing threads for a Mk6. And I got a courtesy car.

Most people on this forum have some interest in their car - so i assume most would be happy to do a little research to get a better product etc. To be honest, I don't really care about others people's cars, my car is what's important to me. I know I got a very good oil in my engine, and a dealer stamp in my service book for warranty purposes.

---------- Post added at 11:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 PM ----------


Well next time we'll tell them we want the car ready for 3pm so we can be assured that it's ready at 5pm :mad:

And provide your own oil so you know the right stuff is being used.

[Diesel_vert]

Hmmm not exactly....you've made a lot of assumptions. I paid $195 + the oil I bought (so $270 in total) for my service today at my Audi dealership. My brother works there so i get trade price. Much cheaper than what most people have posted in the servicing threads for a Mk6. And I got a courtesy car.

No, I should have clarified that I wasn't specifically referring to you.

Rather, that the premium prices (obviously doesn't apply in your case) one pays at certain dealerships isn't justified considering the quality of service offered.


Most people on this forum have some interest in their car - so i assume most would be happy to do a little research to get a better product etc. To be honest, I don't really care about others people's cars, my car is what's important to me. I know I got a very good oil in my engine, and a dealer stamp in my service book for warranty purposes.

Rather, it's about the right product.

[kaanage]

On a side note, when you agree to a pick-up time, don't arrange to leave the car all day. If they see 5pm as the pick-up time, your car instantly goes to the bottom of the pile. It WILL be rushed through at the very last minute.

Tell them you'll pick it up at, say 1pm, but turn up your leisure. Chances are, they wont phone you when it's done anyway, so they can't call you out on your tardiness.

Actually, my wife reminded me that she was also left waiting for half an hour last time when the car was serviced and that time, she had requested the car be ready at 3pm (she ended up driving away from Camberwell VW at 3:30). So no matter when we want it, we'll be requesting for at least an hour before next time AND I will provide my own oil.

[Transporter]

Actually, my wife reminded me that she was also left waiting for half an hour last time when the car was serviced and that time, she had requested the car be ready at 3pm (she ended up driving away from Camberwell VW at 3:30). So no matter when we want it, we'll be requesting for at least an hour before next time AND I will provide my own oil.

Because they started to work on it in the afternoon. But if you tell them that you will pick it up at 1:00 or better still before 12:00, they will do it still in the morning and it will be ready by 5:00 :)

[kaanage]

OK, a retraction. Camberwell VWs service manager assured me today that the car did get 504/507 5w30 oil used in the most recent service but their system hasn't been updated to reflect this on their invoices.

The wife still isn't happy about the delays but that'll go into the servicing survey.

[Rawcpoppa]

OK, a retraction. Camberwell VWs service manager assured me today that the car did get 504/507 5w30 oil used in the most recent service but their system hasn't been updated to reflect this on their invoices.

The wife still isn't happy about the delays but that'll go into the servicing survey.

How are you sure he's telling the truth?

[Rawcpoppa]

I'm from Trinidad. My dealer here(there is only one) used Castrol Edge with SPT 5w-40 for my 1000 mile service which after I did some research i found out was a VW 502 oil.

The dealer here wants me to service my 2012 Jetta every 3 months or 5000 miles, whichever comes first. My owner's manual states I should use VW 504 oil. Should I make a fuss with the dealer about this considering I am not doing the long life service like you guys? E.g 502 for less than 6 month intervals, 504 for 1year interval servicing?


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[brad]

How are you sure he's telling the truth?
sometimes you just have to trust people


I'm from Trinidad. My dealer here(there is only one) used Castrol Edge with SPT 5w-40 for my 1000 mile service which after I did some research i found out was a VW 502 oil.

The dealer here wants me to service my 2012 Jetta every 3 months or 5000 miles, whichever comes first. My owner's manual states I should use VW 504 oil. Should I make a fuss with the dealer about this considering I am not doing the long life service like you guys? E.g 502 for less than 6 month intervals, 504 for 1year interval servicing?
502.00 is actually fine for 15k/1yr fixed service intervals. 504.00 is the designated oil for variable service up to 30k/2yrs. Having said that, 504.00 is now cheap enough (here is AUS anyway) that you may as well use it all the time.

I think your dealer is trying to over-service your car if he wants you back every 3 months/5,000km. The only reason you would reduce the service intervals (down to 7500km/6m) is if you drive under any of the severe service conditions listed in the service book including but not limited to: short trips, stop/start traffic, towing, extremely dusty, etc.

[Diesel_vert]

I'm from Trinidad. My dealer here(there is only one) used Castrol Edge with SPT 5w-40 for my 1000 mile service which after I did some research i found out was a VW 502 oil.

The dealer here wants me to service my 2012 Jetta every 3 months or 5000 miles, whichever comes first. My owner's manual states I should use VW 504 oil. Should I make a fuss with the dealer about this considering I am not doing the long life service like you guys? E.g 502 for less than 6 month intervals, 504 for 1year interval servicing?

Due to the higher levels of sulphur in your fuel, I would not recommend using 504/507 oils (I'd have thought it wouldn't even be sold in your country because of this reason).

The current oil you are using should be fine.

[brad]

Would the high sulfur fuel be classed as a severe service item requiring more frequent oil changes?

[Diesel_vert]

Would the high sulfur fuel be classed as a severe service item requiring more frequent oil changes?

It would probably be a contributing factor (amongst others) for the shortened service intervals in their country.

[Rawcpoppa]

So you're saying that VW 502 oils may be more tolerant to sulphur than the 504s? I was considering switching to VW 504 and having frequent oil changes because of the sulphur. I figured 504 would be better than 502 in this instance once I kept the intervals short (6 months or 7500 miles)

I msged my dealer asking why they used 502. Hopefully I get a legit response so I can post back here.


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[Diesel_vert]

So you're saying that VW 502 oils may be more tolerant to sulphur than the 504s? I was considering switching to VW 504 and having frequent oil changes because of the sulphur. I figured 504 would be better than 502 in this instance once I kept the intervals short (6 months or 7500 miles)

Yes.
But given the short service intervals in your country (5000 mi. = 7500 km), perhaps it won't matter what you use.

But still, I would only use 504/507 if VW says you can use it in your country. And I definitely wouldn't bother if it's priced any higher or uncommon.

[kaanage]

3rd service and 3rd time Camberwell VW (Bayford) have 5W-40 oil on the receipt :confused:

[Diesel_vert]

3rd service and 3rd time Camberwell VW (Bayford) have 5W-40 oil on the receipt :confused:

Looks like they're up to their old tricks again.

Ask if you can visually verify what oil they're using (if you can be bothered to check). Hopefully it's just a clerical error this time 'round (maybe).

[MGV]

I asked at Bayfords recently & was told they use Shell Helix (ultra extra 5W30?). Will have a look at my old receipts tonight...

[MGV]

Yeah, my receipts too state 5W40... Doesn't say what brand, tho.