Polo GTI high oil consumption?

[gavs]

Hey all,

Another Polo site I am signed up with noticed something disturbing regarding oil use in the new gtis...

UK-POLOS.NET • View forum - MKVIII Polo (The new new new Polo) (http://www.tigerstyle.co.uk/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=56)

[break]

That link only directs to the main forum, not to the specific page you're talking about.

High oil usage is pretty common on the VAG motors, particularly the newer motors (I know the 2.0T in the Golf GTI has a horrible thirst for oil)

[weedub]

My oil light came on this morning at start up then went off again after driving for a while. The car has done 2000kms and took a litre of new oil at the 1000km mark. Looks like it will be 1 litre every 1000 kms for me. :-(

[Corey_R]

I wonder whether the people with the oil issues are babying the car during the "break in period", or waiting until it warms up (the oil, not the water) and then driving it enthusiastically (as you normally would)?

My observation is that the people who baby the cars during break in have high oil usage. The people who floor the gas as soon as they get it don't (not literally straight out of the dealer's drive away, but 10 minutes later once the engine oil is up to normal operating temp).

[GraveDilute]

On this topic. I took a looksy and saw my engine oil is low. I've just clocked 1000 kms on my baby.

Recommended engine oil for top up?

[pologti18t]

On this topic. I took a looksy and saw my engine oil is low. I've just clocked 1000 kms on my baby.

Recommended engine oil for top up?

Surely it's in the owners manual.

[gavs]

VW Approved 502 oil.

My bad about the link, see here maybe....

UK-POLOS.NET • View topic - Using Oil! (http://www.tigerstyle.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=51128)

in reference to what Corey said, it is seeming more and more true that the topic brought up in another post about loading the engine up hard in the first 100kms (once warmed up of course) is getting truer and truer for new cars. I personally will be doing this in the GTI when I get it because if at the first service I have alreeady put 20L of oil through it, I'm not going to be happy!!!!!!:dark:

[Brendan_A]

My twincharged Golf has only 200ml in 5700km. I never flogged it from new but I didn't baby either.

[Corey_R]

VW Approved 502 oil.
Hey gavs, are you sure that it's VW Spec 502 which the new Polo GTI uses? I would have thought it was 504.00 of which you can always find the latest approved lists of oils here. (http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f77/vw-skoda-audi-factory-approved-oils-other-lubricants-49676.html)

[GraveDilute]

Surely it's in the owners manual.

The question was more about a recommendation of oil brand.

[gavs]

The uk says 502.... Could be different here though guess....


The question was more about a recommendation of oil brand.


Whatever mixes and meets the relevent VW standard, guys in the uk are using Shell Helix synthetic...

[brad]

Hey gavs, are you sure that it's VW Spec 502 which the new Polo GTI uses? I would have thought it was 504.00 of which you can always find the latest approved lists of oils here. (http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f77/vw-skoda-audi-factory-approved-oils-other-lubricants-49676.html)
502.00 is fine for top-up & even as a fresh fill under "standard driving conditions & 15,000km service intervals". You can even go a lower spec (it's in the manual) but there are plenty of 502.00 oils out there these days. Of course, 504.00 has its' advantages over 502.00.

That list of oils is misleading for the Australian market. eg: It lists Castrol Edge Sport 5w-30 as being 504.00 but in Aus, the same label is only 502.00.

[Corey_R]

Hey guys, I just want to make this really clear....

Volkswagen publish a specification which lists the oil requirements for their motors. Currently the specification is the 504.00/507.00 oil specification. To the best of my knowledge, all current VAG motors use this spec. Certainly the 1.4TSI in the Golf uses this spec, as does my Golf R motor.

You must use an oil which complies to that specification else you risk voiding your engine warranty if you have issues. One of the things that a VW dealer is usually asked to do when performing engine warranty work (especially replacements) is to test the oil and fuel.

DO NOT take random forum peoples word for what oil you should be using (such as that link that gavs provided to the UK boys). Look up the details yourself and ENSURE you are using a compliant oil.

Steps:
1) Please check your owners manual to confirm that the oil specification applicable to your car is VAG 504.00/507.00
2) Refer to this link (http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f77/vw-skoda-audi-factory-approved-oils-other-lubricants-49676.html) where Transporter updates the link to the latest VAG listing of compliant oils via their official erWin site (https://erwin.volkswagen.de/).
3) Find the oil of your preference on this list
4) Ensure at time of purchase that you are getting SPECIFICALLY the correct oil "model and type" you require. What I mean by this is you can't just use any "Shell Helix Synthetic" oil. You MUST USE one of the 4 Shell Helix options from the VAG list.
5) Compliance with VW 504.00/507.00 will usually be stated on the actual oil bottle and/or website for the oil itself. E.g. Liqui-Moly Top Tech 4200 | 5W-30 (http://www.liqui-moly.com.au/products/motor-oil/) or Shell Helix Ultra Extra 5W-30 (http://www.shell.com.au/home/content/aus/products_services/on_the_road/oils_lubricants/helix/product_range/ultra/)

Hope that helps :)

[brad]

Corey
I'll say it again. The erwin list is Euro-centric. There are oils in that list that have exactly the same label as Australian marketed oils & the Australian oils are not 504/507 approved. Therefore i think that point 3 is incorrect & your point 4 is far more important (read the label & look for the spec).

Personally, as this is an internet forum, I think the first thing a person should do is visit their favourite oil manufacturers website & use the netlube/lubeguide feature & then read the Technical Data Sheet for the recomended oil. The TDS will tell you what VW specs it complies with.

In addition, 504.00 is not the minimum or only allowable spec listed in the owners manual. I'd post a scan from mine but I'm about to bugger off from the computer for the day. i'll do it tonight if i get a chance.

Just to satisfy my curiosity as to what may have changed, would you be able to post a scan of the applicable page out of your handbook please?
Also, if one of the Polo GTI owners could do the same?

Thanks

[Gambit]

hum thanks for the tip i will check it out and keep an eye on oil levels.

[break]

I wonder whether the people with the oil issues are babying the car during the "break in period", or waiting until it warms up (the oil, not the water) and then driving it enthusiastically (as you normally would)?

My observation is that the people who baby the cars during break in have high oil usage. The people who floor the gas as soon as they get it don't (not literally straight out of the dealer's drive away, but 10 minutes later once the engine oil is up to normal operating temp).My observation too.

To get a good seal on the piston rings the car needs to be driven (once oil is at full operating temperature) at full throttle through the full rev range during the break-in period, contrasting the manufacturers recommendations.

Edit: Read this to get a good overview of why and how this needs to be done: http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

[gavs]

Thanks break, I was looking for that link to bookmark it! :)

[Coolio]

Guys guys guys....all this talk about winding the polo out to the redline and i have to wait till January...come on!

[break]

Guys guys guys....all this talk about winding the polo out to the redline and i have to wait till January...come on!The brightside is now you're informed on how to bed the piston rings in properly though... and it's going to be a fun process for you :D

[h100vw]

You don't need to wind it off the clock, just put it under load. Some nice long hills would be great. Slow down as much as you can in 3rd and then give it some and repeat.
Keep an eye on the temps.

Gavin

[Miles Away]

I've done just over 700km on mine and coincidently checked the oil levels tonight. It is using a decent amount of oil. I've been driving it a good mix of hard and soft. Either way i'm gonna have to top up the oil in the next few days.

[gavs]

mmm, might have to become a shareholder in mobil/elf/castrol/ etc....

[GTI Leo]

Just had this issue with my car over the long weekend only 2500km on the clock since buying.
Oil light came on and had to fill with 1L Shell Helix Ultra 5W-40 (which is VW 502 and specified along with vw 504 in the manual).
Went to the dealer the next day and they filled up the remainder for free and did confirm the oil i used is one of the oils specified for the Polo Gti's.

[Corey_R]

Did you show the service guys the bottle?
Or did you just tell them that you got "Shell Helix Ultra" ?
Cause even the Shell site thinks you got the wrong oil (http://www.shell.com.au/home/content/aus/products_services/on_the_road/oils_lubricants/helix/product_range/ultra/) :)

[brad]

Did you show the service guys the bottle?
Or did you just tell them that you got "Shell Helix Ultra" ?
Cause even the Shell site thinks you got the wrong oil (http://www.shell.com.au/home/content/aus/products_services/on_the_road/oils_lubricants/helix/product_range/ultra/) :)
If you look at page C3 of the TDS for Shell Helix Ultra 5w-40 (http://www-static.shell.com/static/aus/downloads/product_data_guide/product_data_guide_consumer.pdf)you will find it is 502.00/505.00/503.01.

[brad]

BTW: Scan from the Owners Manual applicable to an EA888 1.8TSI.
Applicable box is on the LHS for QG0/QG2 service intervals (IOW 15,000km/12months).
501.01; 502.00; 504.00

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e14/subabrad/oilrecommendations.jpg

[Corey_R]

This is the Polo forum so they're not using the EA888 engine.

Having said that, it's good to see that you can still use the older 502 oil in the EA888's. Though it's interesting that they caution you to only use 0.5L of the stuff and only once if you're on the flexible servicing due to it being inferior. Good reason to use the best oil available (504).

There are also threads elsewhere which show engine pull downs and why you should be using the 504 over the 502.

[brad]

This is the Polo forum so they're not using the EA888 engine.

Having said that, it's good to see that you can still use the older 502 oil in the EA888's. Though it's interesting that they caution you to only use 0.5L of the stuff and only once if you're on the flexible servicing due to it being inferior. Good reason to use the best oil available (504).

There are also threads elsewhere which show engine pull downs and why you should be using the 504 over the 502.
Sorry, didn't realise the GTI 1.4 wasn't in the EA888 family. EA113?

We don't have flexible servicing schedule in Australia, therefore any of the QG1 section is irrellevant for AUS & this thread. I wouldn't use any 502.00 in an engine that has the potential to be going 30,000km between changes either - yew:-(

Please be aware that I do preventive maintenance planning/specifications on for a living. The lazy PM planners always just specify "the best" (usually the most expensive as well) with the shortest maintenance intervals. The ones (like me) that are trying to get a good balance between maintenance costs & equipment reliability often put our nuts on the block & back-spec a bit if the evidence shows over-servicing. (eg: the previous guy in my job never did any Used Oil Analysis & simply scheduled in 200L hydraulic oil changes every 12 months - for equipment that was getting used 20 hours per year). The cost was about $3000 and there were a lot of other risks (environmental, business) associated with doing an oil change. I now get a UOA done every 6 months. It costs ~$300 (inc labour/travel time). Big savings & better trend monitoring of the equipment.

I agree, 504.00 is a better oil (I've done oil analysis of 504.00 & there's almost no degredation after 15,000km of "normal" driving) but I get a bit frustrated when 502.00 is used as a top-up oil (or even a full-fill) and everyone jumps up & down & says it is wrong. Also, if your engine is an oil burner & you are finding it frustrating, sometimes it's better to back-spec on the oil a bit. It might help bed things in a bit quicker.

[Corey_R]

Sorry, didn't realise the GTI 1.4 wasn't in the EA888 family. EA113?
The 1.4TSI ("Twincharger") is actually based on the EA111 family - but that family started in the 70s! So I guess it's classed within the EA113. Funnily enough, the Service Training Self-study material doesn't state its family!


I agree, 504.00 is a better oil (I've done oil analysis of 504.00 & there's almost no degredation after 15,000km of "normal" driving) but I get a bit frustrated when 502.00 is used as a top-up oil (or even a full-fill) and everyone jumps up & down & says it is wrong. Also, if your engine is an oil burner & you are finding it frustrating, sometimes it's better to back-spec on the oil a bit. It might help bed things in a bit quicker.

Yeah, it's fine to be topping up with 502, but I just think that with the rate that some people are claiming that their cars are using oil, you'd be better off topping up with 504, as by the comments here, you're not going to have any "original oil" left by service time! eek!

[Gambit]

So it says that next scheduled service is 15k kms can I take it in at 1k kms and get them to apply that 15k km service at that interval if I am concerned ? I have net checked my oil consumption yet just find it disconcerting that there is no 1k km service for the initial run in period.

[brad]

So it says that next scheduled service is 15k kms can I take it in at 1k kms and get them to apply that 15k km service at that interval if I am concerned ? I have net checked my oil consumption yet just find it disconcerting that there is no 1k km service for the initial run in period.
Concerned about what?

Some people want an early oil change (somewhere between 1000km-3000km); other get it done at half-intervals (75000km) and others leave it until 15,000km. The VW stance is that the service isn't due until 15,000km/12m unless you are operating under severe service conditions.

Personally, I don't think a 1000km oil change is warranted & I waited the 15,000km & have done the oil/filter every 15,000km since. Oil has been factory fill, 502.00, 504.00, 504.00, 504.00. car runs like a dream, never used oil & averages 6.8L/100 for the 66,000km it's travelled. My usage pattern would be described as quite benign as I do lots of long trips/motorway.

It comes down to personal choice, how much money you want to throw at your car & how long you intend to keep it.

[Gambit]

How much did you get charged?

[pologti18t]

Personally, I don't think a 1000km oil change is warranted & I waited the 15,000km & have done the oil/filter every 15,000km since. Oil has been factory fill, 502.00, 504.00, 504.00, 504.00. car runs like a dream, never used oil & averages 6.8L/100 for the 66,000km it's travelled. My usage pattern would be described as quite benign as I do lots of long trips/motorway.

It comes down to personal choice, how much money you want to throw at your car & how long you intend to keep it.

I tend to follow the manufacturers recommendations. To me... its a waste to change expensive synth oil every 7500km. Especially as I have no intention of keeping my cars for more than about 5 yrs. No point wasting my money for the benefit of subsequent owners ;)

BTW... my 1.8T Polo uses negliable oil between yearly services. It was run in using most of the points spelt out on the motorex site. Load on the engine when accelerating AND decelerating (overrun, no throttle) is important.

[brad]

How much did you get charged?
This is on a Skoda with an EA888 1.8TSI M6

The receipts are down in the car. There's a thread somewhere on VWwc... /searches:
2009 - 15k = $150 and I supplied my own 502.00 Castrol Edge Sport 5w-30 ($30) to the dealer as he wanted $130 for 504.00
2009 - 30k = $290
2010 - 45k = $270
2010 - 60k = $330 at an Independant VW specialist. Skoda/VW wanted $700-$950.

All the dealer prices had to be haggled over. Some people aren't willing to do that. The independant quoted a fair & reasonable price straight off the bat.

[Corey_R]

"Good quality" 504 compliant oil from reputable brands seems to be around the $65 to 90 mark for 5L depending on the brand, as long as you shop around.
I've been using the Liqui-Moly Top Tec 4200 5W-30 and it's $80 for 5L. I also purchased the oil filter element and sump plug from the spares counter at my local dealer (~$34 for both parts). If I was intending to do regular oil changes myself, I'd purchase a set of 5 filters and plugs from somewhere like ECS Tuning at the same time I ordered a few other items - however, I think I'll be getting the dealer to do my servicing at this point.

That being said... I'll still provide them with my own bottle of Liqui-Moly to use... my car uses 4.6L so I'll get them to put the bottle with left over back into the boot :)

[Gambit]

that aint too bad, i might just change the oil and oil filter myself at 1k anyway

[GTI JOE]

Yeah, Supercheap Auto sell the Shell Ultra Extra 5W-30 for $69.95.

Hey Corey, how does the Shell oil compare to your Liqui-Moly?

[Corey_R]

I don't know to be honest. I think only someone with many initials after their name and years of mechnical experience could say for sure.

The Liqui-Moly is engineered AND manufactured in Germany for German engines. It's only started to be imported to Australia recently as far as I'm aware. A few of the more mechnically minded guys on these forums suggested that it is a good brand and that they were already using their products, so I called Derek of European Autotech (they are who has done the upgrade work on my three VW's and they service several Sydney forum member's cars) to ask his opinion, only to find he had just signed up to be a distributor after trying it out for a while in his workshop...

.. so since I had to go there to get my Stage II+ upgrade done on my R, and I already had a few thousand K on my car and the filter/sump plug from VW spares, it just seemed the obvious choice and time to get it done :)

[GTI JOE]

Thanks Corey,
Found this web site that sell the Liqui-Moly for $79.95 with free Australia wide shipping:)
MotorActive - Online Shop (http://www.motoractive.com.au/shopping10/cart_view.php)

[brad]

how does the Shell oil compare to your Liqui-Moly?

Liqui-Moly Top Tec 4200 5W-30
Viscosity class : 5W-30
Viscosity at +40 °C : 72 mm²/s DIN 51562
Viscosity at +100 °C : 11.8 mm²/s DIN 51562
Density at +15 °C : 0.850 g/cm³ DIN 51757
Viscosity index : 160 DIN ISO 2909
Pour point : - 45 °C DIN ISO 3016
Ash, sulfate : 0.6 g/100 g DIN 51575
Base number : 6.2 mg KOH/g DIN ISO 3771


Shell Helix Ultra Extra 5W-30
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C cSt ASTM D 445 - 67.9
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C cSt ASTM D 445 - 11.8
Viscosity Index ISO 2909 - 170
Flash Point °C ASTM D 4502 - 0.848
Pour Point °C ISO 3016 –39
So the above numbers are saying that when cold the LiquiMoly is a fraction runnier than the Shell. When hot they are the same viscosity.

Unfortunately, Shell don't quote a Total Base Number (counteracts biproducts of combustion). The LiquiMoly is about average - Valvoline 504.00 is 5.9 as a comparison; there are oils out there with TBN greater than 12. Strangely, when I had the UOA done on my valvoline after 15,000 the TBN was over 9 (which makes no sense). At the end of the oils life, you don't want a TBN much less than 3.

I'd have no problems using the LiquiMoly. I'd be happy to use the Shell as well. Shell & Fuchs are OEM suppliers to the VW factories.

[GraveDilute]

I found the Penrite ENVIRO + at Supercheap. 1L = $16.99
Expensive!
Still, it says on the bottle that it is specifically designed for VW specification.

[brad]

1L bottles are always expensive. Enviro+ in a 5L bottle is about $75-$85

[GraveDilute]

Yep, small volume = high margin for retailer. Totally understandable.
In my case, I only want to keep the 1L kicking around in the garage for when I need a top up.
If it starts to really drink oil then I'll take it into the dealer.

At 1300 kms now on my GTI. Hopefully it calms down now

[yas786]

Seems I have not been keeping an eye on 2 things while driving the GTi:
(1) Km's travelled, I could swear we only did around 1,500 km's - but it is now on 3,300 km's
(2) Oil level - checked dip stick last night after letting the car sit for a few hours - it was near empty!

I understand these motors use a bit of oil based on their design, so oil level did not freak me out. My brother had the same happen to his
MK5 Golf GTi. So went out this morning and bought 5L of Shell Helix Ultra Extra and topped it up. Will keep checking weekly to ensure it does not drop to that level again.

[Gambit]

^ that's a worry.

[Diesel_vert]

From the owner's manual:





It is normal for the engine to consume oil. The oil consumption may be as much as 0.5 l/1 000 km depending on your style of driving and the conditions under which you operate your vehicle. The oil consumption may be slightly higher than this during the first 5 000 kilometres.
Doesn't seem like something to be overly concerned about, unless you think the handbook is incorrect. :???:

[GTI JOE]

I suppose it varies with the way you break the engine in? Once warmed up,varying amounts of load?

[Flighter]

I wonder whether the people with the oil issues are babying the car during the "break in period", or waiting until it warms up (the oil, not the water) and then driving it enthusiastically (as you normally would)?

My observation is that the people who baby the cars during break in have high oil usage. The people who floor the gas as soon as they get it don't (not literally straight out of the dealer's drive away, but 10 minutes later once the engine oil is up to normal operating temp).

My Golf was/is babied, and all it used is 700ml in the first 6500km, so as they say, "your mileage may vary".

[brad]

Seems I have not been keeping an eye on 2 things while driving the GTi:
(1) Km's travelled, I could swear we only did around 1,500 km's - but it is now on 3,300 km's
(2) Oil level - checked dip stick last night after letting the car sit for a few hours - it was near empty!

It was near empty or it was near the bottom of the stick?

The low level on the stick is 1L down; the bottom of the stick is about 2L down. You'd still have about 2L left.

[yas786]

It was near empty or it was near the bottom of the stick?

The low level on the stick is 1L down; the bottom of the stick is about 2L down. You'd still have about 2L left.

Near the bottom of the dipstick.....