Adding 2 stroke oil to fuel - Interesting reading!!

[benno]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[gldgti]

i'm going to try it.... i wonder if it makes much difference if you add it to biodiesel ;-)

[gregozedobe]

http://www.freel2.com/forum/topic878.html?highlight=oil

What do you reckon peeps?

I'd be be a bit cautious if your TDI has a DPF - they are very expensive to replace. VW go to all the trouble of only approving special low-SAPS engine oil in case burnt engine oils contaminate the DPF.

[gerhard]

I read as far as page 6, and there was not one single flame post - that's amazing when it can be regrded as a "contentious" issue.

There is no doubting the lubricity and combustibility of 2 stroke oil - the Rotaxs on our karts pulled 14,000rpm all year on a 50:1 mixture, and the wear was negligible as was the soot inside the combustion chamber.

I have no doubts that it can replace the lubricity of sulphur in diesel fuel.

YF's observations about the cleanliness of turbos, etc, makes me idly ponder if adding maybe a 1:500 or 1:1000 mix into the GTI's fuel would keep the air inlets cleaner - they do gather plenty of oil and clog the insides of head ports much faster than a port injected engine.

I don't think I'll try it, since it's hard to measure any effectiveness in the GTI engine, but if I had a diesel I would definitely check it out.

[gerhard]

I'd be be a bit cautious if your TDI has a DPF - they are very expensive to replace. VW go to all the trouble of only approving special low-SAPS engine oil in case burnt engine oils contaminate the DPF.

There was plenty of commentary about that issue in the small amount I read. YF is specific about the ash content of the 2-T oil recommended, and specifically says not to use fully synthetic in a DPF vehicle because it does what you are fearing.

[benno]

Yeah I'm a bit leery of doing anything to upset the DPF. Although the woman (!!!!) who started the thread and recommends adding the oil, is firmly of the opinion that it won't harm the DPF and is in fact protective of it - a cleaner burn leading to less soot in the exhaust.

[Greg Roles]

F'ing great find, I'm excited about the idea. Bit of research needed, as indeed oil ash clogs that damn DPF, but as soon as I can find a low ash 2 stroke mix, it's in.

[Preen59]

I'm going to Melbourne tomorrow. Got litres and litres of Castrol R30 at the workshop. I'll throw 300mls in before i leave and see how it goes. I'll also take the bottle with me and fill up on the way home.

I usually get mid 5's there and back. It'll be interesting to see what difference it makes. :)

Report on Monday night. :bluesbro:



Edit: I'm going to use Yamalube as we've got a stack that we'll never use. We tried in in the Karts and there was a definite performance gain in it initially, but the longer you used it, the slower the engine became. This turned out to be because it was actually de-carboning the engine. Removing it from the piston crown and down the sides. This caused more heat soak in the engine and gave less piston seal, which equated to a hotter, slower engine. (Talking air cooleds here...)


For this application, it should be perfect. The idea is to lubricate and clean, which this stuff does an amazing job of. Anyways, like i said.. I'll get back to you. :)

[Greg Roles]

Lucky non DPF types...

[GoLfMan]

Im keen to try this!
will get some into the next fill up (or maybe even tonight!!!!) :eek:
should I get just the garden variety stuff thats down at the petrol station?

[benno]

F'ing great find, I'm excited about the idea. Bit of research needed, as indeed oil ash clogs that damn DPF, but as soon as I can find a low ash 2 stroke mix, it's in.

Keep us posted with what you find mate.

YF in that forum made a post with some specs of oil that are suited. I'm going to poke around at the servo tomorrow when I fill up and see what they've got.
(if I'm allowed out that is - stuck in bloody quarantine for the past two days as I've got 'flu-like symptoms' and had contact with someone who tested positive for H1N1...)

[benno]

Im keen to try this!
will get some into the next fill up (or maybe even tonight!!!!) :eek:
should I get just the garden variety stuff thats down at the petrol station?

Mate read the thread and see what YF recommends, she quotes a bunch of oil specs somewhere....

[sparkie]

Dear Peeps, there a lot of mis-information on the internet, I'm sure you agree, and here is some more. I am not a petro-chemical engineer, but I do know a lot about biodiesel. YF states that the reason to add 2-stroke to modern diesel is to compensate for the lack of sulphur, which is a lubricant, in the fuel , thus adding 2-stroke compensates for the REDUCED lubrosity (sp?) of modern diesel due to there being more biodiesel in the fuel. This is totally incorrect, biodiesel has MUCH better lubricating properties than petro-diesel, there are plenty of references to this online. The reason pump manufacturers are coating linings with teflon is because biodiesel is a great solvent and can attack certain plastics and metals, again there are lists of what plastics are unstable with BD. 2-stroke is a highly polluting way of feeding an internal combustion engine, that is why Eastern Germany has got rid of them all, and it is why TATA are trying to manufacture a cheap car in India. You are burning a heavier substance in terms of the refraction of crude oil, so it tends to fall quickly as it cools down and so it sticks around in the streets and in the air. Research suggests that 2-stroke fuel is 40 yes 40 times more polluting than 4-stroke. In many parts of Scandinavia foresters are not allowed to use certain oils in their 2-stroke chainsaws because of the pollution, the oils they use are not available over here as far as I know. I would also reckon 2-stroke would cause havoc with sensors and DPFs. Ironically if you want to overcome the comparative 'dryness' of modern diesel, add bio-diesel (which is often packaged as an injector cleaner anyway), but be aware of its chemical (not lubricating) properties.

[Transporter]

Very interesting find.
It got me thinking about it and at the same time I put myself a question.
There are chemists and scientists that design the diesel fuel additives; why they don't use 2stroke oil in their products?

Because, it can't replace a good diesel fuel additive that also disperses water, prevents bacteria growth. The diesel fuel additive is proper lubricant for complete diesel fuel system and it is designed to burn in combustion with diesel fuel.
The 2stroke oil is designed to lubricate 2stroke petrol engine and burn in combustion with petrol.

So, I’m not sure about 2stroke oil in diesel fuel.
You most likely won’t do any damage by just trying it once, but I'm not sure about a long-term impact on the fuel system components if you use it all the time. Especially if you have the DPF.

The risk is to grate: very little to gain and too much to lose.

[benno]

Dear Peeps, there a lot of mis-information on the internet, I'm sure you agree, and here is some more. I am not a petro-chemical engineer, but I do know a lot about biodiesel. YF states that the reason to add 2-stroke to modern diesel is to compensate for the lack of sulphur, which is a lubricant, in the fuel , thus adding 2-stroke compensates for the REDUCED lubrosity (sp?) of modern diesel due to there being more biodiesel in the fuel. This is totally incorrect, biodiesel has MUCH better lubricating properties than petro-diesel, there are plenty of references to this online. The reason pump manufacturers are coating linings with teflon is because biodiesel is a great solvent and can attack certain plastics and metals, again there are lists of what plastics are unstable with BD. 2-stroke is a highly polluting way of feeding an internal combustion engine, that is why Eastern Germany has got rid of them all, and it is why TATA are trying to manufacture a cheap car in India. You are burning a heavier substance in terms of the refraction of crude oil, so it tends to fall quickly as it cools down and so it sticks around in the streets and in the air. Research suggests that 2-stroke fuel is 40 yes 40 times more polluting than 4-stroke. In many parts of Scandinavia foresters are not allowed to use certain oils in their 2-stroke chainsaws because of the pollution, the oils they use are not available over here as far as I know. I would also reckon 2-stroke would cause havoc with sensors and DPFs. Ironically if you want to overcome the comparative 'dryness' of modern diesel, add bio-diesel (which is often packaged as an injector cleaner anyway), but be aware of its chemical (not lubricating) properties.

Sulphur content has nothing to do with biodiesel content. YF is recommending the addition of 2 stroke oil regardless of biodiesel content. She recommends adding oil not just for it's lubricating properties but also because it results in LESS soot in the exhaust, and hence cleaner and better performing turbo.

Remember, it's being added in MUCH lower quantities than a typical two stroke petrol engine, and it's being added to a diesel engine with a very different combustion process.

[benno]

Very interesting find.
It got me thinking about it and at the same time I put myself a question.
There are chemists and scientists that design the diesel fuel additives; why they don't use 2stroke oil in their products?


Good point, and something I was thinking myself, but how do you know they don't? One poster in that thread I linked to claimed that a Redex diesel additive was mostly two stroke oil. It's certainly not inconceivable that they'd package up some two stroke oil with a bit of water dispersant in it and sell it at a great profit :nana:

[brad]

2-stroke is a highly polluting way of feeding an internal combustion engine, that is why Eastern Germany has got rid of them all, and it is why TATA are trying to manufacture a cheap car in India. But the old Eastern Block Trabants & the dungers in India are all running old fasioned, low tech 2-strokes on a 20:1 mixture. Modern direct injection 2-stroke technology as used in outboard engines, snowmobiles & motorscooters is far more benign.

Also Ms YF is saying 200:1 in diesel which is 275ml of 2 stroke to a full 55L Golf fuel tank. Given that most people don't run their tank to completly empty, I'd think a 200ml shot at every fill would be about right.



You are burning a heavier substance in terms of the refraction of crude oil, so it tends to fall quickly as it cools down and so it sticks around in the streets and in the air. Research suggests that 2-stroke fuel is 40 yes 40 times more polluting than 4-stroke.
But how does 2-stroke compare to diesel?
Also, does it depend on the oil:fuel ratio? I run my brushcutter at 50:1 because I use Stihl 2 stroke oil.

I know it isn't a diesel, but I often used to add a litre of ATF to my petrol to act as a detergent agent, upper cylinder lubricant & decarboniser. Redex for petrol was the same base - ATF.

[brad]

YF's observations about the cleanliness of turbos, etc, makes me idly ponder if adding maybe a 1:500 or 1:1000 mix into the GTI's fuel would keep the air inlets cleaner - they do gather plenty of oil and clog the insides of head ports much faster than a port injected engine.

Sorry for slightly OT.

How would a cleaner in the fuel keep the air inlets (I assume you mean the inlet manifold) clean if the fuel is direct-injected into the combustion chamber?


I'm sure I've misunderstood or am missing something.

[gerhard]

Sorry for slightly OT.

How would a cleaner in the fuel keep the air inlets (I assume you mean the inlet manifold) clean if the fuel is direct-injected into the combustion chamber?


I'm sure I've misunderstood or am missing something.

Nah, I was just idly pondering and clearly it is a nonsense thought :)

It's oil blowby that pollutes the inlets, not fuel blowby :duh:

Many of the naysayers above might like to think about why MB would use this technique and find it rewarding, when they say things like "I'm not an engineer, but......" and refute the findings of engineers.

[sparkie]

Het Gerhard, I'm a naysayer, because sooo much of what goes on in the world, and even more in the car industry is bxxxxxit. MB did this because they could guarantee the quality of the diesel they were using on a reliability run, and as the original bloggers wrote how embarrassing would it have been if the cars had failed due to poor diesel bought locally. I donlt have to be an engineer to know that the diesel I buy has often been mixed with additives by unscrupulous station owners, nor that the underground fuel tanks are not completely water-free (condensation on the inside of the tanks at night), finally many of these engineers are researching engines in a lab with highly controlled environments - which do not translate to real-world situations - so I say roll on the naysayers, after all, the world is flat and te antarctic ice pack has increased by 100,000 square kilometres in the last ten years - but don't quote me I'm no climatologist!

[Greg Roles]

OK guys, have done a stack of research, and it seems 2 stroke is great in helping older diesels cope with the lower sulphur diesel of today. If you run some bio, there's no benefit. Seems to be too many people warning against using it in cars designed for ULSD, and those reporting more smoke, hence DPF cars are out of the question in my mind.

If it gave a measurable power hike, I'd risk it, but it doesn't, so I won't.

I did learn a lot about cetane in the process, and the waste of time cetane improvers are, especially in summer, when they just help diesels preignite even more, and LOWER power outputs. You want higher cetane in winter, lower in summer. Interesting!

Also got to see a lot of yankie dyno charts with various diesel additives, and most of them also lowered power outputs, when a dyno was done in a car with dual fuel tanks, and switched across for consecutive runs, one with the additive.

I won't be buying any for anything other than the odd flush.

[gerhard]

But that's my point. If MB uses the technique to turn crap fuel into good fuel (ie, hugely beneficial), how can the technique be harmful?

And if it's demonstrably beneficial, how does that make it harmful?

[brad]

Many of the naysayers above might like to think about why MB would use this technique and find it rewarding, when they say things like "I'm not an engineer, but......" and refute the findings of engineers.
That's where I don't quite believe what Ms Y? was saying. All her references were heresay or commercial in confidence or unfinished university studies. It started to wear thing after a while.

[brad]

But that's my point. If MB uses the technique to turn crap fuel into good fuel (ie, hugely beneficial), how can the technique be harmful?

I don't believe they did.

They organised there own fuel tankers for the relibility run & supposedly/secretly added 2 stroke.

[benno]

OK guys, have done a stack of research, and it seems 2 stroke is great in helping older diesels cope with the lower sulphur diesel of today. If you run some bio, there's no benefit. Seems to be too many people warning against using it in cars designed for ULSD, and those reporting more smoke, hence DPF cars are out of the question in my mind.

If it gave a measurable power hike, I'd risk it, but it doesn't, so I won't.

I did learn a lot about cetane in the process, and the waste of time cetane improvers are, especially in summer, when they just help diesels preignite even more, and LOWER power outputs. You want higher cetane in winter, lower in summer. Interesting!

Also got to see a lot of yankie dyno charts with various diesel additives, and most of them also lowered power outputs, when a dyno was done in a car with dual fuel tanks, and switched across for consecutive runs, one with the additive.

I won't be buying any for anything other than the odd flush.

What do you reckon about YFs claims that it actually lowers the amount of soot in the exhaust? As far as I can see, she's the only one advocating it's use in DPF cars for this reason. And she claims to have had her car measured and it produced less soot than expected...

I saw some of that stuff about cetane too, very interesting. Particularly as people seem to regards it like octane and that bigger is better.

[gldgti]

sp preeny, how'd the caddy go?

[Preen59]

sp preeny, how'd the caddy go?

Poked a rod out on the Hume....


NAAAHHHH haha. :nana:


Went well. I'd say the 3-5% increase in fuel economy is plausible. I got 5.2 on the way down and 5.3 coming home. Last time i got around 5.4-5.5. This was sitting on 110/100 depending on the speed limit for most of the way, too. I Didn't speed, but i didn't muck around, either.

It's quieter. Slightly smoother. Idles quieter i think. Seems to have a little bit more go in the mid/top end, nothing earth shattering though. Don't know about the soot thing because i can't really see it.

Definitely no worse. The Yamalube worked quite well. I used a bit too much, but i can't see the harm in using more than required.. :)

[gldgti]

well there ya go... cant hurt ;-)

[GoLfMan]

might give it a crack then :)

[Preen59]

well there ya go... cant hurt ;-)

Yeah. Considering that diesels effectively burn high grade heating oil, I figured it couldn't do and serious damage. Especially having experience with the properties of 2 stroke oils. I say give it a go for sure. :drinkbeer:

[GoLfMan]

in that case, I'll hit up my mate at Peter Stevens motorcycles to get me some of the nicer 2stroke :)

[neil]

Guy's I posted the original link to a biofuel site I use and this was one of the
reply posts below.


"Before I switched my boat and tractor to BD, we always put 2 stroke in the Dino after they removed the sulphur. This was recommended by a GM marine mechanic and it certainly made a difference to the engine operation, it was much quieter and smoother running. Our local long haul trucking company uses 2 stroke in their fuel as recommended by their Volvo mechanic.

The marine mechanic said even though they had hardened the valves etc in new engines, it still doesn't stop the extreme wear that comes with what he called the "sandpaper fuels of today". He reckons fuels of today are extremely harsh and designed like the average consumer goods, creating short life times in fuel systems and engine components which adds to company profitability, that's why parts for today's vehicles are so very expensive and dodgy.

A pretty reasonable observation when you consider the life of a car today is about 1/3rd of what it was 50 years ago. Fuel economy is not much different to 40 years ago, in fact in lots of cases it's worse as engines of today are lucky to make 100000klms before needing a major costly service or repair.

I reckon when you deal with profit manipulated commodities, you take no notice of the propaganda nor rely upon so called sales or company experts and look at the situation realistically. After all, we all know what an expert is, X is an unknown quantity and spurt is a big drip."

[gerhard]

Fuel economy is not much different to 40 years ago, in fact in lots of cases it's worse


That's believable???????

[Preen59]

That's believable???????

I think he probably means value for money. What you pay versus the life span of the engine..

That's not 100% correct however.. For instance, my old man services an early 90's BMW 525i with over 400,000kms on the clock. Original engine. Uses bugger all oil between services and only has a bit of gudgeon noise at idle.. :)

[CatonaPC©]

While I was waiting for my car to be serviced the other day, I noticed an approved VW diesel additive (Wurth?) and thought I'd might try it.

I don't think I would contemplate dumping 2 Stroke oil in the tank, though.

I agree with Transporter. Interesting find, but a big risk for little gain.

[recalibrate_ecu]

Hi, i would try millers diesel power sport 4.
Diesel is a lubricant, unlike petrol.

[Signbloke]

Now here is one to think about folks and BTW I got this from another forum but have a read please.

to all interested:
due to the pollution control measures of the EC diesel-oil is nearly sulphur free and contains up to 5% of bio-diesel. Sulphur has the property to grease the high pressure injection pump and the injectors. Without sulphur, the reduced greasing property of the new diesel has already shown negativ impacts on the long-term stability of the injectors and the high pressure pump. The pump manufacturers have tried to react by lining the moving parts of the pumps with teflon or other suitable material. However, the long term stability is still not achieved as with the old (sulphor contained) diesel.
The engine-research centre of a well known German car manufacurer has conducted some long term tests of diesel additives to find out whether any one of them will have an impact on the long term reliability of the diesel engine components. This introduction to explain were my information comes from.
The results of this research: any diesel additive of any manufacturer presently on the market is not worth the money!
BUT: 2-stroke oil, which we use in our motor saws, lawn mower or in 2-stroke motor engines has shown to have an extreme positive impact on diesel engines, if such 2-stroke oil is added to the diesel in a homoeophatic dosis of 1:200. In practical terms: 0,300 litre of 2-stroke oil into the 70l diesel tank. The 2-stroke oil will be absorbed by the diesel (emulsion) and grease every moving part of the high pressure pump and the injectors.
Besides this, the 2-stroke oil will keep the diesel engine clean, as it burnes cleaner as the diesel itself.
In other words, the 2-stroke oil has a much lower ash-content as diesel, when burned. This proven fact delays the DPF (diesel particulate (soot) filter) to clogg, and the "burn free" process of the DPF will be much less.
One more information: in Germany we have to present our cars every 2 years to the TUV -Technical Supervision Organisation - who will check, amongs others, the pollution of petrol and diesel engines.
The measured cloud-factor of a diesel engine without use of 2-stroke oil has been 0,95.
The same factor with the use of 2-stroke oil has been 0,47 - reduction of nearly half of the soot particles.
Besides this, the use of 2-stroke oil in the diesel will increase the milage by 3-5%.


and more :-
You may all know that Mercedes Benz have conducted in 2007 a long distance reliability test with a number of Mercedes E-Class 320 cdi from Paris to Beijing. Due to the fact that the diesel quality in East European Countries, Russia and China does not meet the DIN requirements, and Mercedes did not want to take the risk of their engines to flopp due to lousy fuel, the total tour has been accompanied by diesel tanks to re-fuel the E-Class cdi's. Selected members of the Mercedes clientele could apply to participate in selected parts of this test-tour, and advocats and notaries had to certify the correctness of this long term reliability test.
Although Mercedes does not like it published or made public, it is a fact that the diesel-fuel used for this test did contain 2-stroke oil to grease the high pressure pump components and to keep the engines clean during this marathon.
Why our car manufacturers do not officially allow the homoeophatic addition of 2-stroke oil to the diesel fuel has many reasons, mostly of legal nature. Besides this, which car manufacturer has any interest in excessive reliability of their engines? Their repair shops will have great problems.
Meanwhile the "2-stroke-oil to diesel" issue has attracted the interest of a number of Universities in Germany, as this 2-stroke oil has shown to have amazing poperties if added in a small dosis to diesel fuel (1:200), especially the positive impact on air pollution, reduced fuel consumption and improved long term reliability of the diesel engine. The pro and con discussions will go on for a while. But as soon as an accademic report has been published by one of our Universities, this will change very fast.
By the way: all car manufacturers reject the addition of any fuel "additive" in their cars, and warn that guarantee MAY be affected. Nobody says, that guarantee WILL be rejected. 2-stroke oil in its properties is not an additive, as you add oil to oil if you "dope" you fuel with a dosis of 2-stroke oil. The dosis of 2-stroke oil in your diesel-fuel is very difficult to analyse, as every (chemical) analysis has the main function to identify substances which are harmful. But 2-stroke oil has proven not to be harmful at all, on the contrary!
Personally, I use 2-stroke oil now for many years in all of my diesel cars (my present business car is a Mercedes 320 cdi DPF Automatic). And I never had any problems whatsoever.

Signbloke here again:

I have been adding 100mm of Penrite 2stroke oil to our Golf 1.9tdi on every tank (50litre tank) for the past 6mths, no effect and does run quieter at idle but each to there own on this one and it cannot hurt as far as I am concerned, you just don't know what sort of fuel mixes we all are putting into our cars now days and any extra lubrication has to be a good thing....

BTW it also did make a big difference in my fathers 4.2litre Nissan Patrol, running very quiet and stopped the loud ticking at idle (130,000kms)....

Copied from the Nissan Patrol 4x4 forum and here is the whole thread link if you want to read it all 2 stroke oil in your diesel fuel - Patrol 4x4 - Nissan Patrol Forum (http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/general-patrol-discussion-17/2-stroke-oil-your-diesel-fuel-37562/)

[Signbloke]

No problems Transporter!!

New to the forum and I tried to do a search first but was unsuccessful in finding anything but thought there would be something on here about 2-stroke oils....I'm out of warranty now but it runs lovely and we plan on keeping it for the next 10 yrs, not one to swap vehicles often, I've had my work Hilux 15 yrs now, sure its slow & reliable but looking soon to get a dualcab transporter....Nice!!

Love the site BTW - heaps of info.

Cheers
Signbloke

[kaanage]

Now here is one to think about folks and BTW I got this from another forum but have a read please.

Fantastic post and a great thread revival for those of us who weren't around for the original thread.
I knew I kept that Amsoil around for some reason after I stopped racing :)

And here is the original source of Signbloke's info (http://www.freel2.com/forum/topic878.html) - the OP certainly seems well sourced for her information and a someone has posted that they will soon post some comparison pics of disassembled CR HPFPs that have been run with and without 2-stroke oil .

Pretty much everyone who tried good quality 2-stroke oil at 200:1 reports lower noise if nothing else (including those who have also used diesel additives) so it seems to be good for the injectors and pumps. Too bad I just filled up else my 1.9 PD would be a good test for noise reduction.

[WEDEL.1]

I bought a bottle of Castrol 2T yesterday and I intend using it. My Golf doesn't get used much, last fill up was a couple of weeks ago, time before was 4 months ago.

While it is best to put the oil in THEN fill up, I didn't see anything that said you can't add the 2T oil AFTER fill up.

Any comments/advice?

Maris

[twincab]

You add oil first so the fuel going into the tank mixers with the oil. If you add it after there is a good chance it won't mix properly.

cheers Pete

[kaanage]

Getting the 2-stroke oil to mix well would be my concern with adding AFTER filling. While non-vegetable (eg castor) 2-stroke oil is fully miscible with diesel, it could take a long time for the 2-stroke oil to mix well without agitation or stirring, especially if the 2-stroke oil has a higher specific gravity than the diesel (which I think is likely).

What I'm thinking of doing is syphoning out about 5l (or more if I can find a larger fuel container) from my freshly filled tank and mixing 225 ml of 2-stroke oil with that and then pouring the resulting mix back into my tank.

[gerhard]

I bought a bottle of Castrol 2T yesterday and I intend using it. My Golf doesn't get used much, last fill up was a couple of weeks ago, time before was 4 months ago.

While it is best to put the oil in THEN fill up, I didn't see anything that said you can't add the 2T oil AFTER fill up.

Any comments/advice?

Maris

Best to add the 2T first, then fill up the tank.

In your case I would also be worried about algae in the tank, and I would be adding a treatment aimed at killing any growth.

Cleanpower or FTC decarboniser from Costeffective.com.au would be my choice for that.

[WEDEL.1]

Thanks for the quick replies.

Twincab - I'll be parient & wait until the next fill up in a few weeks when we head over to WA for the Bug-In.

Gerhand - I'll buy a bottle of something to make sure I don't have any unwanted passengers ASAP.

Maris

[kaanage]

But the thread that linked to explicitly stated that using very low ash 2 stroke oil would not be detrimental to the DPF since these oils are specifically designed to burn very cleanly with lower ash content than most diesel stock.

I know that the 2 stroke oils we used, after we switched to using unleaded fuels, left the pistons and cylinder heads so clean that there was basically no way to read the burn patterns and you had to tune using EGTs and detonation counters.

[Diesel_vert]

Sulphur has the property to grease the high pressure injection pump and the injectors. Without sulphur, the reduced greasing property of the new diesel has already shown negativ impacts on the long-term stability of the injectors and the high pressure pump.


SULPHUR AND LUBRICITY
As I understand it, lubricity isn't overly affected by the presence or absence of sulphur - it's the refining process used to remove sulphur which reduces the lubricity of diesel, as I point out using selected quotes from this SAE technical paper (PDF, 825 KB (http://www.infineum.com/Documents/Fuels%20Technical%20Papers/SAE/2009-01-0848.pdf)):





... To answer the question whether the inherent lubricity of untreated gas oil was lost by the decrease of sulphur and nitrogen compounds these type of compounds were added back into fuel

The addition of the three compounds to ULSD 1 shows no significant effect on the improvement of the base fuel lubricity

As can be concluded from these experiments, sulphur compounds in untreated diesel fuel are not providing lubricity protection...


Concerned by this, the FIE (Fuel Injection Equipment) Manufacturers have released a joint statement on this issue (PDF, 666 KB) (http://www.globaldenso.com/en/topics/files/common_position_paper.pdf):





... It is essential that the lubricity of the fuel as measured by the HFRR test specified in ISO 12156-1 meets the requirement of a wear scar diameter not greater than 460 microns...

... the useful operating lifetime of any mechanical component will be adversely affected by fuel with a lubricity exceeding 460 microns.



FUEL QUALITY
So does the current diesel fuel meet this requirement? If you fill up in Europe or Australia, then yes.

Since 1999 the European Standard for diesel, EN 590:1999 (which has since been superceded by EN 590:2004 and EN 590:2009 (http://www.plateforme-biocarburants.ch/en/infos/en590.php)), has stipulated a maximum wear limit of 0.460 mm (460 microns) which, according to the FIE Manufacturers' statement, satisfies their requirements. Australia adopted the same requirement from 16 October 2002, as shown in the Fuel Quality Standards Act 2000 (http://www.environment.gov.au/atmosphere/fuelquality/standards/diesel/index.html).

However, in the U.S. the current fuel standard for diesel (ASTM D975) allows a maximum wear limit of 0.520 mm (520 microns) which is some 13% higher than European and Australian standards. It also allows a minimum cetane index of 40, compared to 46 for Europe and Australia. This is partly why Americans are so concerned about fuel quality (sucks to be them, eh?) which is why they have people doing studies like comparing 19 additives (original thread (http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728)). Type "spicer additive test" in Google to see further discussions on TDIClub and BITOG forums, etc.

(According to that study, it appears to be possible to reduce the lubricity of fuel from using certain additives, though they say "the cause for this is speculative".)



BIODIESEL
Another commonly known and effective way of increasing lubricity is to add biodiesel. Even at just 2%, biodiesel shows great reduction in wear (ranked 1st in the study, see above). Similarly, ULSD with 5% biodiesel shows the least wear compared to untreated fuels in the SAE technical paper. And as part of the EU Biofuels Directive, EN 590:2004 has permitted up to 5% biodiesel, and up to a futher 7% in EN 590:2009, with the blessing of the FIE manufacturers:





... The European diesel fuel standard EN 590:2009 includes diesel blends with up to 7 % FAME (B7). The agreed position of all FIE manufacturers undersigned is to limit release of injection equipment for admixtures up to a maximum of 7 % FAME (meeting EN 14214:2009) with the resulting blend meeting the EN 590:2009 standard.

Since 1 March 2009, Australian diesel also permits up to 5% biodiesel.



CONCLUSION
Now, since European and Australian diesel fuel must comply with regulation (either by using biodiesel, additives, or whatever it takes to get it under 460 microns), and the FIE manufacturers have reached a consensus of that being a satisfactory limit, there really shoudn't be any concern on this matter. That's not to say older equipment will be completely trouble free (I think seal compatibility might still be a concern), but modern equipment designed for 10 ppm sulphur diesel shouldn't be failing due to excessive wear from inadequate fuel lubricity.

(Keep in mind the differences in fuel standards as previously noted when reading up on lubricity, especially from American forums).

That's my take on the issue of lubricity. Precisely what other effects arise from adding 2-stroke oil to the fuel tank of a Euro 4 or Euro 5 diesel engine, I don't know (or can't be bothered to find out :P). Those with particulate filters, I'd urge some degree of caution before proceeding. Many vehicle manufacturers have mandated the complusory use of the latest generation of lubricant technology (i.e. low-SAPS oils), such is the effect of traditional oils and its additives have, not just on the filter's service life, but on EGR valves as well.

[WEDEL.1]

I hope that the owners of the TDI with the DPF who read this thread will not do this experiment, because they will reduce the life of their DPF and for sure void the warranty (engine and fuel system).

YF original post;

In other words, the 2-stroke oil has a much lower ash-content as diesel, when burned. This proven fact delays the DPF (diesel particulate (soot) filter) to clogg, and the "burn free" process of the DPF will be much less.

So, why do you discount this? I'm not trying to cause an argument, but you are saying no without a reason.

I would think that if a warranty was refused, they (VW) would have to prove that this traement was the cause of a problem. If they cannot prove this, they must accept your claim.

How can you tell if your VW has a DPF? I don't know if my 2008 1.9 TDI has one or not. I have never seen a picture of one so I don't know if the Golf has one or not.The manual with the car is as helpfull as SA Police. The only this I saw was someone wrote;

If you can see exhaust smoke, you don't have DPF. On that basis, I don't have one.

Maris

[Transporter]

YF original post;

In other words, the 2-stroke oil has a much lower ash-content as diesel, when burned. This proven fact delays the DPF (diesel particulate (soot) filter) to clogg, and the "burn free" process of the DPF will be much less.

So, why do you discount this? I'm not trying to cause an argument, but you are saying no without a reason.

I would think that if a warranty was refused, they (VW) would have to prove that this traement was the cause of a problem. If they cannot prove this, they must accept your claim.

How can you tell if your VW has a DPF? I don't know if my 2008 1.9 TDI has one or not. I have never seen a picture of one so I don't know if the Golf has one or not.The manual with the car is as helpfull as SA Police. The only this I saw was someone wrote;

If you can see exhaust smoke, you don't have DPF. On that basis, I don't have one.

Maris

As Diesel_vert said in the quote bellow



That's my take on the issue of lubricity. Precisely what other effects arise from adding 2-stroke oil to the fuel tank of a Euro 4 or Euro 5 diesel engine, I don't know (or can't be bothered to find out :P). Those with particulate filters, I'd urge some degree of caution before proceeding. Many vehicle manufacturers have mandated the complusory use of the latest generation of lubricant technology (i.e. low-SAPS oils), such is the effect of traditional oils and its additives have, not just on the filter's service life, but on EGR valves as well.

I can only add to that, those who have the DPF use special engine oil with very low sulphur content, so when the engine burns clean diesel fuel in the cylinder the residue of that very low sulphur engine oil that also burns in the cylinder and goes through the DPF and exhaust system will greatly contribute to the total amount sooth particles trapped in the DPF. When you put 2 stroke engine oil in the fuel your ULS diesel fuel will have more sulphur in it than is allowed, plus you will also burn in the cylinder additives from that 2 stroke oil.

Of course, if you don't have the DPF and EGR in your system, your engine will burn it without fuss, but still I wouldn't put 2 stroke oil in the fuel, it was newer designed as the diesel additive. Just use the diesel additive and you have one less thing to worry about when the things go south. Just imagine that you have a problem with your engine, related to the fuel and you would say to your mechanic or to VW workshop "I used the 2 stroke oil as an additive as I red on the internet". It's just not worth it. :)

You know that you have the DPF when you have yellow light in the instruments.

[kaanage]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Last edited by benno; 07-08-2009 at 02:04 AM. Reason: leaving the forum due to draconian rules and excessive moderation
I now see that the original source for the thread was the same Freelander link that I found from Signbloke's links but had been removed by the OP. Funny how the same topic has reared it's head after all this time.

I'll be trying it with the PD engine for sure but will hold off (for now) with the CR

WEDEL.1, your 1.9 PD won't have a DPF

[WEDEL.1]

That's right it doesn't. Checked the manual last night to see what the light looks like, then turned the ignition on, the light is not there. Still, I'd use the 2T oil even if I did have a DPF.

With a google search, there are many forums running this story (Briskoda, nissanpatrol, 4X4). I have yet to see anyone have a problem through using 2T.

Maris

[Highlander]

Anyone ever wondered why Caltex buy biodiesel and what they do with it?

[Transporter]

Anyone ever wondered why Caltex buy biodiesel and what they do with it?

It is a bit different when they mix the biodiesel into ULSD. The biodiesel contains zero Sulphur, they can add up to 5% into the diesel before they have to label it. Just 2% of biodiesel will return the original lubricity to the diesel.

[Transporter]

With a google search, there are many forums running this story (Briskoda, nissanpatrol, 4X4). I have yet to see anyone have a problem through using 2T.

Maris

Here is some not so positive comment(s). http://www.daihatsu-drivers.co.uk/node/12715#comment-23966

[Diesel_vert]

In other words, the 2-stroke oil has a much lower ash-content as diesel, when burned. This proven fact delays the DPF (diesel particulate (soot) filter) to clog, and the "burn free" process of the DPF will be much less.

I don't know whether that's a "proven fact", but for argument's sake let's assume that's true.


Important is, that those 2T-oils should comply with JASO "FC" or ISO L-E "GC" or "GD", which should be written on the bottle. All 2T-oils as per these norms burn with an ash content of less than 0,05%.

Really?


ASH CONTENT
The actual limits for sulphated ash for various JASO specifications (PDF, 272 KB (http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/2T_EV0412.pdf)) are as follows:





JASO FB = 0.25%
JASO FC = 0.25%
JASO FD = 0.18%



The European and Australian standard for diesel (see my previous post for links) also specify ash limits:





EN 590:1999 = 0.01%
Australia = 100 ppm (or 0.01%)




Please note that soot is not equal to ash!!! Soot can be burned, ash not.

Indeed.

Now the JASO limits are very high when compared to diesel fuel, but as the OP points out later in the thread, you can indeed find two-stroke lubricants that have less ash content than the maximum allowed values, it's just a matter of referring to the Product Data Sheet and selecting one with the lowest content.

But that is not the end of the story.



LUBRICANT ADDITIVES
Most lubricants contain metal-based additives (which function as anti-wear, anti-oxidants, dispersants, detergents, etc.) and they are mostly added to the base oil by lubricant engineers. Look at any oil analysis for road vehicles and you'll see a whole list of metal additives present in oil, and notice how they stay there throughout the drain interval - it'd be a pretty useless oil otherwise!

The main problem is, like ash, these aren't burnt off during combustion, so they either end up in the catalyst or the DPF, decreasing both their service life. And I believe it isn't something you'd notice straight away, so it would be difficult to judge what sort of impact two-stroke oil will have (or otherwise) within a short time frame.

It's also concerning because, like many lubricants on the market, there are no limits for these additives in the JASO specifications (see page 14). After all, their main function is to protect the engine, not the catalyst or particulate filter.

My recommendation: always do your own research!




With a google search, there are many forums running this story (Briskoda, nissanpatrol, 4X4). I have yet to see anyone have a problem through using 2T.

I wouldn't expect to see much problems either (except for catalyst/DPF issues, and the possiblity of increased EGR valve clogging rates) but then again I'm no engineer.

You should take into account the age and type of diesel engines, whether or not any emissions devices are present, and how long or consistently they've been using it for when reading up people's experiences on forums.



Anyone ever wondered why Caltex buy biodiesel and what they do with it?

Caltex appear to be selling B2, but only on the Central Coast and Northern NSW at the moment, unfortunately. :( They also sell B5 and B20, but only to commercial customers.

[kaanage]

LUBRICANT ADDITIVES
Most lubricants contain metal-based additives (which function as anti-wear, anti-oxidants, dispersants, detergents, etc.) and they are mostly added to the base oil by lubricant engineers. Look at any oil analysis for road vehicles and you'll see a whole list of metal additives present in oil, and notice how they stay there throughout the drain interval - it'd be a pretty useless oil otherwise!

The main problem is, like ash, these aren't burnt off during combustion, so they either end up in the catalyst or the DPF, decreasing both their service life. And I believe it isn't something you'd notice straight away, so it would be difficult to judge what sort of impact two-stroke oil will have (or otherwise) within a short time frame.

It's also concerning because, like many lubricants on the market, there are no limits for these additives in the JASO specifications (see page 14). After all, their main function is to protect the engine, not the catalyst or particulate filter.


From the Freelander site:


2-stroke oil will increase the OZ-value (Oktan) of diesel oil by 3 to 5 points (OZ=x*OZ("2-T oil) + (1-x)* OZ (diesel fuel)). 2-stroke oil does not contain any Zinc-components, and metal-organic additives are virtually absent. This is the main reason why 2-stroke oil burnes cleaner than diesel oil.




I wouldn't expect to see much problems either (except for catalyst/DPF issues, and the possiblity of increased EGR valve clogging rates) but then again I'm no engineer.
Catalyst? I doubt it since chemicals that will poison a catalytic converter basically metals and carbon, phosporous and sulfur (see Three-Way Catalysts: Aging, Causes of Failure and Deactivation (http://www.ecooptimized.com/index.php/gasoline/80-three-way-catalysts-aging-causes-of-failure-and-deactivation-.html) - none of which are used in the non-fully synthetic oils recommended to any significant extent. Here is the abstract of a study done in 1998 on 2-stroke motors and catalytic converters (http://papers.sae.org/982711/) and 2-stroke oils have not gone backwards since then.

DPF? That's the question on everyone's lips and where all the FUD is in this forum.

EGR?? How is that? The amount of 2-stroke oil that will get into the sump oil (via blowby) will be miniscule.

The really odd thing that I find in this thread is how no one comments on the posts in the other forums where people have said that none of the diesel additives that they have tried have had any effect, nor on the study where most diesel additives were found to have very little positive effect on lubricity and some made things worse (and where the single 2-stroke oil tested did reasonably well). Of course it's all hearsay, I guess...


Here is some not so positive comment(s). http://www.daihatsu-drivers.co.uk/node/12715#comment-23966
There is exactly one person (assassin) posting negative comments in that thread and he/she is just as unhelpful as Yamaha-Fan in providing evidence to corroborate his/her position, plus he/she posted before the recent pictures posted in the Freelander thread. There a couple of others latching on to his/her comments but they aren't making any statements as such.

[Diesel_vert]

2-stroke oil will increase the OZ-value (Oktan) of diesel oil by 3 to 5 points (OZ=x*OZ("2-T oil) + (1-x)* OZ (diesel fuel)). 2-stroke oil does not contain any Zinc-components, and metal-organic additives are virtually absent. This is the main reason why 2-stroke oil burnes cleaner than diesel oil.

Octane? Surely the OP meant to say cetane...

But anyway, how can the OP make such a statement about two stroke oil with any certainty, considering that there are no limits specified in the JASO specifications? I don't know much about two stroke oil - is it common practice for lubricant manufacturers not to add these additives in two stroke oil?


Catalyst? I doubt it since chemicals that will poison a catalytic converter basically metals and carbon, phosporous and sulfur (see Three-Way Catalysts: Aging, Causes of Failure and Deactivation (http://www.ecooptimized.com/index.php/gasoline/80-three-way-catalysts-aging-causes-of-failure-and-deactivation-.html) - none of which are used in the non-fully synthetic oils recommended to any significant extent. Here is the abstract of a study done in 1998 on 2-stroke motors and catalytic converters (http://papers.sae.org/982711/) and 2-stroke oils have not gone backwards since then.

At the end of the 20,000 km field test, the catalysts were found not to be chemically poisoned, so that bodes well for two stroke oils. However, also note that Euro 4 regulations state that these emissions devices must last for 5 years/100,000 km, and for Euro 5 vehicles up to 5 years/160,000 km. But then again, who's checking? :D

My argument (so far) is based on two factors. Firstly, that our diesel meets the 460 micron limit which satisfies the FIE Manufacturers from a lubricity point-of-view, and secondly, that the presence of certain additives can hinder the operation of emissions devices. Now if all two-stroke oils really contain nothing that can damage the catalyst or DPF, then I can't see why you shouldn't use it, but that might be rather difficult to prove - unless you start asking the lubricant manufacturers what the chemical composition of their oils are.


DPF? That's the question on everyone's lips and where all the FUD is in this forum.

I don't think it's FUD, it's more like healthy scepticism, considering the OP tends to make statements while providing little (if any) references, or claiming that they're confidential or not for public viewing. :???:


EGR?? How is that? The amount of 2-stroke oil that will get into the sump oil (via blowby) will be miniscule.

According to Lubrizol, the use of high SAPS oils can lead to increased blockage of the EGR valve (see link within link (http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f112/why-you-need-use-504-507-oils-fsi-tsi-tdi-engines-47140.html)). It may be possible that two stroke oil would have a similar impact, but then again, if it's as clean as they say it is, maybe not.


The really odd thing that I find in this thread is how no one comments on the posts in the other forums where people have said that none of the diesel additives that they have tried have had any effect, nor on the study where most diesel additives were found to have very little positive effect on lubricity and some made things worse (and where the single 2-stroke oil tested did reasonably well). Of course it's all hearsay, I guess...

Are you referring to Spicer's additive test? I made a brief comment on page 5, and provided a link to the original thread.

Two stroke oil came in 7th with a result of 474 microns, a 162 micron improvement, though it still wasn't enough to get their (U.S.) fuel down to European/Australian standards.

Hopefully, soon we won't have to use any additives, as the NSW government continues to push its Biofuel Mandate (see link (http://www.biofuels.nsw.gov.au/)). :banana:

[Greg Roles]

MKV GT TDI or 125TDI Passat are the only VW diesels with the SiC DPF. ALL MK6 Diesels have a DPF now. I can't comment on Skoda, but as they were CR in 2008 I would guess they come DPF equipped from then too. As the DPF is deemed disposable, and is "supposed" to last 150k, at the $4300 odd VW want for one, I'd be very very hesitant to go experimenting with backyard additives.

I would only think about it if I had a MK6, as it seems the chance of HPFP ( high pressure fuel pump ) failure is greater than DPF blockage, and some extra lube couldn't hurt, although what I am reading on TDI club is starting so say even more lubricity in fuels won't stop the problem. That said, it may be a US model only thing, but BMW are having heaps of problem with their HPFP too, so it's a common theme sadly.

I see no upside reason to run it in a 125kw DPF equipped MKV.

103 kw or 1.9 MKV - go nuts!:banana:

[kaanage]

Octane? Surely the OP meant to say cetane...
Dunno. Does it matter in the context of this thread?

But as for the universal recommendation of increased cetane rating in this forum, there are other forums where they state that cetane ratings higher than required cause increased engine wear (due to more rapid pressure build up) so are additives that boost cetane really good for our cars? Maybe our ECUs are good enough to retard the injection timing in this case so this is not an issue - can anyone comment?:?


But anyway, how can the OP make such a statement about two stroke oil with any certainty, considering that there are no limits specified in the JASO specifications? I don't know much about two stroke oil - is it common practice for lubricant manufacturers not to add these additives in two stroke oil?
Those additives aren't needed in 2 stroke oils since the oil doesn't need to resist mechanical breakdown over prolonged use so why should they add something that is of no benefit?


At the end of the 20,000 km field test, the catalysts were found not to be chemically poisoned, so that bodes well for two stroke oils. However, also note that Euro 4 regulations state that these emissions devices must last for 5 years/100,000 km, and for Euro 5 vehicles up to 5 years/160,000 km. But then again, who's checking? :D
Since 2 strokes run at far higher concentrations of oil that the 200:1 discussed here and given that petrol on its own burns cleaner than diesel on it's own, this study would extrapolate well. We seem to accept a lot of other things that might poison or cloak cats without thinking about it (eg ECU tunes that radically increase fuelling, hence depositing more soot into the cat).


My argument (so far) is based on two factors. Firstly, that our diesel meets the 460 micron limit which satisfies the FIE Manufacturers from a lubricity point-of-view
I think just about everyone here is concerned that this is very much a minimum requirement specification. Otherwise, why do almost all diesel fuel additives shout out about increased lubrication as one of the benefits. Sure, if you lease a car for 3 years and return it, then you wouldn't care but many of us intend to keep out cars longer than that and may have bought a diesel with that in mind - I know I did.


, and secondly, that the presence of certain additives can hinder the operation of emissions devices. Now if all two-stroke oils really contain nothing that can damage the catalyst or DPF, then I can't see why you shouldn't use it, but that might be rather difficult to prove - unless you start asking the lubricant manufacturers what the chemical composition of their oils are.
I could level the same doubt towards diesel fuel additives. How many of them explicitly state that they will not clog DPFs? Some do, some don't.


I don't think it's FUD, it's more like healthy scepticism, considering the OP tends to make statements while providing little (if any) references, or claiming that they're confidential or not for public viewing. :???:
The DPF debate is a reasonable one. But to bring in doubts about catalytic converters and EGRs is FUD


According to Lubrizol, the use of high SAPS oils can lead to increased blockage of the EGR valve (see link within link (http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f112/why-you-need-use-504-507-oils-fsi-tsi-tdi-engines-47140.html)). It may be possible that two stroke oil would have a similar impact, but then again, if it's as clean as they say it is, maybe not.
It has already been stated that 2 stroke oils are low SAPS so why bring this in again? If 2 stroke oils were high SAPS, then there would be no question at all about them being unsuitable for DPFs as they would definitely clog them in short order (and poison catalytic converters).


Are you referring to Spicer's additive test? I made a brief comment on page 5, and provided a link to the original thread.

Two stroke oil came in 7th with a result of 474 microns, a 162 micron improvement, though it still wasn't enough to get their (U.S.) fuel down to European/Australian standards.
My apologies - so you did. But you didn't comment on the poorer performance of many diesel fuel additives (which was my observation).
And to say that 2 stroke oil came 7th is a pretty selective statement - from 3rd to 9th, the difference was 49 ( 197 - 148 ) microns with 10th being WAY lower (61 microns) and 19 additives in total being tested so in that light, the 2 stroke oil did pretty well.
Plus the fuel tested had an HFRR score of 636 microns while US requires 520 microns (to our 460 microns). So the 2 stroke oil would have gotten US Spec fuel down to European/Australian standards.:banana:

[kaanage]

I would only think about it if I had a MK6, as it seems the chance of HPFP ( high pressure fuel pump ) failure is greater than DPF blockage, and some extra lube couldn't hurt, although what I am reading on TDI club is starting so say even more lubricity in fuels won't stop the problem. That said, it may be a US model only thing, but BMW are having heaps of problem with their HPFP too, so it's a common theme sadly.
Yes, the basic design seems to be the problem and no amount of lubrication would save the pump if the piston rotated.
But I'm still very interested in how the pictures that DiscoGeorge has promised in the Freelander thread for demonstrating "a visible reduction in the wear and tear on shaft seals on the CRD high pressure pumps" with 2 stroke oil.


I see no upside reason to run it in a 125kw DPF equipped MKV.
Not even for the injectors?

[Greg Roles]

Nope. The current belief on failure mode is the insulation around the pizeo actuator / wires in the loom break down under oil/heat and earth out, causing injector and thus engine shutdown. Has nothing to do with the injector part per say, and is not anywhere near fuel. Needs beefed up insulation for the wire sin the loom, and revised insulation in the pizeo module, but no-one is sure outside Siemens themsleves I'd say.

[Diesel_vert]

I know people keep saying that two stroke oils are safe for emissions devices, but so far I personally remain cautious on its use on Euro4/5 diesel engines.


But as for the universal recommendation of increased cetane rating in this forum, there are other forums where they state that cetane ratings higher than required cause increased engine wear (due to more rapid pressure build up) so are additives that boost cetane really good for our cars? Maybe our ECUs are good enough to retard the injection timing in this case so this is not an issue - can anyone comment?:?

Higher cetane leading to increased wear? My initial thoughts are that I'm sceptical, but who knows?


I think just about everyone here is concerned that this is very much a minimum requirement specification.

Lower is better of course, but at this point in time I don't feel that the 460 micron limit is something to be overly concerned about.


Otherwise, why do almost all diesel fuel additives shout out about increased lubrication as one of the benefits.

To sell more product? :D No one is doubting the benefits of increased lubricity, just depends on how low you need to go (wear limit) before you feel comfortable.


Sure, if you lease a car for 3 years and return it, then you wouldn't care but many of us intend to keep out cars longer than that and may have bought a diesel with that in mind - I know I did.

It's not inconceivable that modern diesel engines will outlast the chassis even if you don't use any additional additives.


I could level the same doubt towards diesel fuel additives. How many of them explicitly state that they will not clog DPFs? Some do, some don't.

We don't know (or I don't know), that's the (my) problem.



The DPF debate is a reasonable one. But to bring in doubts about catalytic converters and EGRs is FUD

In light of the information currently available to me, I thought they were valid concerns.


But you didn't comment on the poorer performance of many diesel fuel additives (which was my observation).

I thought the results were pretty self explanatory.


And to say that 2 stroke oil came 7th is a pretty selective statement - from 3rd to 9th, the difference was 49 ( 197 - 148 ) microns with 10th being WAY lower (61 microns) and 19 additives in total being tested so in that light, the 2 stroke oil did pretty well.

I thought a 162 micron improvement was decent, even if it wasn't as good as some other products. :???:


Plus the fuel tested had an HFRR score of 636 microns while US requires 520 microns (to our 460 microns). So the 2 stroke oil would have gotten US Spec fuel down to European/Australian standards.

I recall that the reason why untreated fuel was used was to see the effects of the additives in isolation. There are endless debates on whether the effects would have been any different if treated fuel was used, but let's not go there.

[kaanage]

Nope. The current belief on failure mode is the insulation around the pizeo actuator / wires in the loom break down under oil/heat and earth out, causing injector and thus engine shutdown. Has nothing to do with the injector part per say, and is not anywhere near fuel. Needs beefed up insulation for the wire sin the loom, and revised insulation in the pizeo module, but no-one is sure outside Siemens themsleves I'd say.
I'm not relating lubrication to the PD Piezo injector failures but just asking for general wear reduction in the injectors (I've pretty much read everything I can find about the PD Piezo injector failures in various forums and sites). But then if you're getting you injectors replaced anyway...

[kaanage]

I recall that the reason why untreated fuel was used was to see the effects of the additives in isolation. There are endless debates on whether the effects would have been any different if treated fuel was used, but let's not go there.

Actually, it seems some people on TDiClub are trying to go there by seeing if they can fund a repeat of the Spicer test with current additives and using a stock pump diesel rather than the pure distillate base used in the original test. Hopefully they can get it organised.

As for the rest of our debate, I agree that neither of us have enough sources nor personal observations to be able to make definative statements. But I'll report back on what findings I can make when I trial with my PD engined Polo (the 2 stroke oils that I have around are only JASO FC)

[Diesel_vert]

As for the rest of our debate, I agree that neither of us have enough sources nor personal observations to be able to make definative statements.

Pretty much sums up 99% of internet forum discussions. :D

[Transporter]

Nice discussion. :)

IMO,
the personal observations from using any additive or 2stroke oil doesn't mean anything from the engine perspective. You can feel that the engine has more power and that there is much less smoke from the exhaust, yet still cause some damage to the engine or shorten it's life. Unfortunately, all I could read on the net about using 2 stroke oil as an additive was not supported by any known test results that would be backed up by any reputable company. For me the unknown affect that 2stroke oil could have on the engine and fuel system components is way to much risk, ...and all that for what?

I just may add that, if you use additive in a common rail engine make sure that it is made for CR fuel systems. The CR high pressure pump will render any other additive useless.

[kaanage]

Long term mileage is not a bad indicator but we need figures from a reliable source to be sure.

DiscoGeorge on the Freelander thread has been delayed so the comparitive pics of the CR HPFPs won't be up until around March 16 :(

Do you think the injector pics + comments posted by DiscoGeorge in this page in the Freelander thread (http://www.freel2.com/forum/topic878.html?highlight=oil&start=465) are meaningful, Transporter?

[Diesel_vert]

Apparently, BP Diesel with up to 5% biodiesel (http://www.bp.com/sectiongenericarticle.do?categoryId=9035914&contentId=7066542) has been available for over a year now (wish I knew earlier :(). Anyway, this is welcome news for those of us with diesel cars (especially those fitted with a DPF), as this should alleviate most of our concerns on lubricity.

Some select quotes:





Is BP Diesel with up to 5% biodiesel covered by the BP Fuels Guarantee?



BP Diesel with up to 5% biodiesel conforms to the Australian Diesel Specification and, as with all BP fuels, is backed by our BP Fuels Guarantee. We guarantee that our fuels are fit for purpose and, if the conditions of our fuel guarantee are met, will not cause system problems.


Where is BP Diesel with up to 5% biodiesel sold?



Commencing January 2010, BP Diesel with up to 5% biodiesel will gradually replace standard mineral diesel at both BP branded retail sites and BP Truck Stops that are currently supplied from the Parramatta terminal.


List of current sites stocking BP Diesel with up to 5% biodiesel:



BP 2Go Canterbury
BP Haberfield
BP Connect Macarthur
BP Connect Eagle Vale
BP Connect Naremburn
BP Connect Rosehill

As it's now March 2011, hopefully more sites will have B5 by now. I suppose this makes up for the lack of BP Ultimate Diesel in Sydney. :D


EDIT - Volkswagen approves the use of biodiesel blends of up to 7% for all vehicles, including those fitted with particulate filters (PDF, 56 KB (http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/assets/common/pdf/general/biodiesel.pdf)).

[kaanage]

Just make sure you fill at a station with high turnover since biodiesel is hygroscopic, so the longer it's stored, the greater the possibility of microbial growth in your fuel tank and/or corrosion of the fuel system components (pumps, injectors etc).

[Diesel_vert]

That's true, but for 5% blends, I think the issue isn't as acute when compared to higher blends.

In any case, if all else fails one still has BP's fuel guarantee as a last line of defence. But that's not to say ordinary diesel (or petrol) isn't subject to poor storage issues either, so it would be prudent to follow kaanage's advice for any type of fuel bought from a servo.

[Transporter]

To be honest, I don't like the idea of adding bio to the diesel. I've tried B20, 2 tanks in my T5 and I could feel less power and the engine used more fuel, so there was no saving at all. As far as visible soot reduction from the exhaust goes; I could see more reduction when I started to use Morey's Diesel Engine Smoke Killer, back in 2006.

[Diesel_vert]

Though I wish your experience of using B20 was more positive, I still think that using high quality B5 blends is a cheap, effective, and safe way of increasing lubricity, with very few disadvantages, IMO.

Well, at least B5 has the blessing of the vehicle and FIE manufacturers, if that counts for anything.

[kaanage]

B5 should make far less difference to performance than B20, given the large difference in ratios.
And there shouldn't be enough ethanol to damage the seals.

[Diesel_vert]

Do mean methanol? Because AFAIK, most manufacturers only permit biodiesel blends derived from FAME (fatty acid methyl ester) as opposed to FAEE (fatty acid ethyl ester) unless specified, e.g. the Brazilian market.

In any case, the European, American and Australian standard for biodiesel limits methanol content to 0.2% (which works out to be 0.04% for B20 and 0.01% for B5) so it's a non-issue, really.

[gldgti]

To be honest, I don't like the idea of adding bio to the diesel. I've tried B20, 2 tanks in my T5 and I could feel less power and the engine used more fuel, so there was no saving at all. As far as visible soot reduction from the exhaust goes; I could see more reduction when I started to use Morey's Diesel Engine Smoke Killer, back in 2006.

I don't want to really try and change the subject here - but T, 2 tanks isnt a very good test.

I've used more biodiesel in cars than I have any other fuel, and I can tell you 4 things for sure -

> biodiesel doesnt have any inherent problems, apart from approximately 6% reduced chemical energy content %v/v, compared with dino diesel
> like anything in the real world, to get the best out of biodiesel in any diesel engine tuned for dino diesel, you need to alter the tuning of the engine to run it at peak efficiency (in my experience this is as much as 10% difference in fuel economy between stock tuning for dino and optimised tuning for bio). This affects power, economy and soot.
> if you take care, and put in the effort, you can see benefits over running dino diesel.
> its better for the environment

You ofcourse are very experienced with diesels but i don't think its fair to write off biodiesel as "no improvement" based on a 2 tank test :-)

[gldgti]

Do mean methanol? Because AFAIK, most manufacturers only permit biodiesel blends derived from FAME (fatty acid methyl ester) as opposed to FAEE (fatty acid ethyl ester) unless specified, e.g. the Brazilian market.

In any case, the European, American and Australian standard for biodiesel limits methanol content to 0.2% (which works out to be 0.04% for B20 and 0.01% for B5) so it's a non-issue, really.

Good point - you might be interested to know that its actually very sensible for the producer to remove as much ethanol/methanol as possible from the fuel, since it is a constituent component in the manufacturing process and any reclaimed alcohol can be used again.

[kaanage]

What are people's thoughts on these comments and pictures (http://www.freel2.com/forum/post96291.html#96291)of wear in CR HPFPs?

[Diesel_vert]

What are people's thoughts on these comments and pictures (http://www.freel2.com/forum/post96291.html#96291)of wear in CR HPFPs?

"Thanks, I appreciate the time and effort he has taken to post these photos" - which is about as much as I'm qualified to say, really.

When viewed in isolation and without any comparison shots of new and/or damaged parts, perhaps he could expand a little on what we're supposed to glean from these photos (for those of us who are not experienced engineers or mechanics)?


But I thought the debate on what effect two-stroke oil has on lubricity alone was settled (refer to Spicer's additives test), though after re-reading some of their latest comments this doesn't appear to be the case? :???:

[Ivo]

BUMP!

I have been doing some reading on adding 2 stroke oil. Found a Discussion on a forum from South Africa. Big discussion with lots to read if you have the time. Post 143 has lots of good info.

2 stroke oil in diesel? - Page 8 - SA 4x4 Community Forum (http://www.4x4community.co.za/forum/showthread.php?t=40981&page=8)

[CardinalSin]

Have you ever read the results using a mineral FC grade 2 stroke oil at 1:200?
It will certainly be cheaper and is probably superior to all the additives mentioned.
Do your own research and then give it a go.

[Idle]

Not if your car has a DPF.

[CardinalSin]

I can understand you thinking that but it actually benefits the DPF. The lower emissions mean the regen cycles take twice as long to be reached, which also extends the life of the DPF.

[CardinalSin]

I have been using it for almost all of the 15,000km my Yeti has clocked up and the tailpipes are unbelievably clean. They look spotless but when you wipe your finger in there you get a bit of soot and wonder where it came from because you can't see it.
I've never noticed a regen and still wonder what the symptoms are?
It's the quietest diesel i've ever heard and all you really notice on the road is a bit of induction noise accelerating hard, otherwise you can't hear the engine.

[Transporter]

I have been using it for almost all of the 15,000km my Yeti has clocked up and the tailpipes are unbelievably clean. They look spotless but when you wipe your finger in there you get a bit of soot and wonder where it came from because you can't see it.
I've never noticed a regen and still wonder what the symptoms are?
It's the quietest diesel i've ever heard and all you really notice on the road is a bit of induction noise accelerating hard, otherwise you can't hear the engine.


Your 15,000km travelled is not enough of the proof, at least not for me.
Yours at 15,000km still clean tail pipes indicate that, YES the car's Diesel Particle Filter trap does it's job trapping the unburned oil and extra soot particles. But for how long?

I certainly wouldn't want to buy your TDI as a secondhand vehicle to find out.

[CardinalSin]

Your 15,000km travelled is not enough of the proof, at least not for me.
Yours at 15,000km still clean tail pipes indicate that, YES the car's Diesel Particle Filter trap does it's job trapping the unburned oil and extra soot particles. But for how long?

I certainly wouldn't want to buy your TDI as a secondhand vehicle to find out.

Owners of vehicles that have yearly emission checks report that the emissions are reduced by 50% and more by adding 2SO.
This is not the first vehicle I have done this with and there is a massive amount of info from others documenting their experiences. I have yet to see any negative reports, only positive.
So from my perspective and theirs, such vehicles carry a premium secondhand.

It's one of those things where the theory divides opinion but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I just thought I would mention it for anyone interested to research and see what they think if they give it a go.

[kaanage]

Owners of vehicles that have yearly emission checks report that the emissions are reduced by 50% and more by adding 2SO.
This is not the first vehicle I have done this with and there is a massive amount of info from others documenting their experiences. I have yet to see any negative reports, only positive.
So from my perspective and theirs, such vehicles carry a premium secondhand.

It's one of those things where the theory divides opinion but the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I just thought I would mention it for anyone interested to research and see what they think if they give it a go.

A bunch of us do this but there's a lot of "official" discouragement of it. The thread where it was discussed quite intensively has sunk down the listing as time has passed but thanks for bringing it up again.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f28/adding-2-stroke-oil-fuel-interesting-reading-55494.html

[Ryeman]

EVERYONE has something to gain when they advise you on a course of action......they tend to directly profit from it.
Telling a service tech about YOUR additive will almost certainly be ' noted ' as potentially ' used ' in the event of an engine related problem.
I have no idea who to believe when it comes to the statement "......do not approve the use of ANY additive......".
Cynically I tend to think THEY want to profit from THEIR additive.
Everyone wants to profit from advise.

[CardinalSin]

A bunch of us do this but there's a lot of "official" discouragement of it. The thread where it was discussed quite intensively has sunk down the listing as time has passed but thanks for bringing it up again.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f28/adding-2-stroke-oil-fuel-interesting-reading-55494.html

Thanks for the link. I'll enjoy reading that.
Good to see a moderator, right at the start, who's willing to give it a go.

[CardinalSin]

EVERYONE has something to gain when they advise you on a course of action......they tend to directly profit from it.
Telling a service tech about YOUR additive will almost certainly be ' noted ' as potentially ' used ' in the event of an engine related problem.
I have no idea who to believe when it comes to the statement "......do not approve the use of ANY additive......".
Cynically I tend to think THEY want to profit from THEIR additive.
Everyone wants to profit from advise.

I have often complained about up to 3 different Wynns additives being used during a service and charged for when I didn't ask for them and they weren't on the service schedule. Who knows what the contents of those were and what they did? The dealer certainly didn't, they simply did it for profit happy to pass the buck to Wynns if they were proven to cause any damage.

That's what is so good about forums like this. The members aren't selling anything, they are simply here on a social basis and enjoy sharing experiences.

I agree, the dealer is likely to note the comment and not for reasons to benefit the vehicle owner. To even mention such a course discourages open conversation.

[Ryeman]

The 250 is in such a low dose 1/8000 it's difficult to see much chance of damage. OR benefit.
Imagine the profit margin at $76/L....how much gold is there in it?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[CardinalSin]

1:8000??? It's 1:200 for diesels and 1:500 for petrol.

[brad]

where do you get 1:8000 for 2 stroke oil?

Isn't the recommended dose for diesels 1:200 and petrol 1:650 ????

I'm not sure what is $76/L either. semi-synth 2SO is about $15/L if you buy it in 4L lots. You can even buy 1L of FB spec for $7.50 at SCA.

[CardinalSin]

Here's an interesting comment from a Skoda specialist garage concerning the effects of 2SO on the DPF.

Well, it was a head chemist at an oil company that told me that mineral 2T oil burns better than a full synthetic, it also has better cushioning and adheres tenaciously to the engine better during intermittent use so protecting them from corrosion rather than draining away like synthetics do. By burning cleaner I mean less oil going down the exhaust pipe rather than keeping the engine cleaner, the trouble with mineral oil in a 2 stroke is that it cokes more than a full synthetic. Real world comparisons in karting have proven him to be correct as, with the semi synthetic, we no longer have oil coming out of our exhaust port and don't have to strip the power valve down and clean it all the time but to be fair that's for spark ignition, under compression ignition maybe it's a different story.

I think the main benefit is the reduction in emissions and soot, which is nothing to do with the placebo effect, at our garage we specialise in Skoda which is a VW product and the amount of sooted/gummed up turbo chargers and egr valves we see are pretty high. UK fuel is not good quality despite what you might believe and supermarket fuel is the worst of them (I know what you are going to say, all fuel comes from the same place, true..ish but the additive pack is different between brands and the base fuel spec is different) most variable vane failures we see are people that use supermarket fuel. 2 stroke oil won't clean a DPF, EGR valve or turbo but halving the amount of soot keeps them clean and it will clean and lubricate all fuel pumps and injectors.

We deal with all makes despite being a Skoda specialist and still see plenty of common rail pump and injector failures due to excessive wear caused by modern diesel fuel. Stanadyne, who are a reasonably big player in the industry, make their own fuel additives to combat this problem. All fuel is made to a price, the bottom line comes first, usually at the expense of our engines!

I'm not sure it makes regenerations easier, that is done by your DPF cleaner which lasts after combustion and saturates the DPF and the carbon/soot build up in there lowering the temp at which carbon/soot burns off thus regenerating it when the exhaust gases get up to temp and the carbon ignites. 2 stroke oil makes the diesel burn cleaner producing less soot so filling the DPF at a slower rate. There are low ash and ashless 2 stroke oils available that won't clog your DPF especially at that dilution rate and as there is less soot the DPF will do less regenerations so if anything should prolong the life of the DPF. Has your Taxi got a DPF? Maybe try it in that?

2 Stroke oil trial in VW PD engines | European and Import Motor Oils | Bob Is The Oil Guy (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3008096)

[Ryeman]

1:8000??? It's 1:200 for diesels and 1:500 for petrol.
I'm only referring to the 250 dosage.....10ml/80L.

[kaanage]

What's 250? I think everyone read your post as 2SO

[wai]

I would be advising caution in using 2 stroke oil as an additive in diesel fuel.

In a 2 stroke engine, the oil is added to the fuel is there to provide all the engine lubrication. It has characteristics that allow it to separate from the fuel and coat the surfaces of the cylinder (from the crankshaft side) and the engine bearings. In an engine with a separate lubrication system, this oil load is now only seen in the combustion chamber and cylinder, but from the cylinder head side, and provides no lubrication for the mechanical parts of the engine. Yes, there is some effect on the valve guides, but this is a minor requirement. On the fuel pump, the fuel itself provides more than enough lubrication.

What you need to be careful of is the interaction of the 2 stroke oil with the fuel, and the gaskets and seals in the fuel system, and the fact that even the best 2 stroke oils will burn with ash as the result. I have had to de-coke many 2 stroke engines (both old and new), and the last thing I would want to do is add something that will increase this.

A DPF, and injection system that can extend the burn into the exhaust cycle to try and burn off the ash may simply mask the potential problems. If there are no reported issues or effects, it may well be because the burn is not changed by that much any way, and the addition i more of a placebo that actually having a beneficial effect, but it may well play havoc with the fuel system.

The biggest danger is when people using it think that if a little is good, then a lot is going to be so much better.

The way I look at is this. It is an open market. If a lubricant manufacturer saw a genuine market opportunity to use something like 2 stroke oil in a diesel engine, there would have been a product on the market already under its own name, and priced at a premium because of the benefits it provided. It would not be marketed as a lubricant for one type of engine but provided as a cheap alternative for another unrelated type of engine. This is no different to the many additives and mods you can do to a petrol engine that supposedly give you this improved engine power. When you drill down you find that if you simply went with the procedures before installing the system, you get the benefits anyway.

Go with it, but just make sure that it is actually providing you with the benefits others claim.

[kaanage]

Rubbish. If the 2 stroke oil separated out like that, then the crankcases would be filled with it in no time.

2 stroke oil is formulated to burn as cleanly and completely as possible and the detergents that enable this also help clean the injectors and cylinders. There are large numbers of people adding 2 stroke oil to their diesels who have had their engines serviced who will attest to how these components fare vs engines running on "pure" diesel with similar usage and mileage.

I have not found a single verifiable instance where 2 stroke oil has led to any of the issues that the nay sayers speculate about but plenty of annecdotal evidence of quieter (injector and pump noise) and cleaner running and a few instances showing the cleaner components during pull downs

[Ryeman]

Does that apply to the latest CRs also?

[CardinalSin]

I would be advising caution in using 2 stroke oil as an additive in diesel fuel.

In a 2 stroke engine, the oil is added to the fuel is there to provide all the engine lubrication. It has characteristics that allow it to separate from the fuel and coat the surfaces of the cylinder (from the crankshaft side) and the engine bearings. In an engine with a separate lubrication system, this oil load is now only seen in the combustion chamber and cylinder, but from the cylinder head side, and provides no lubrication for the mechanical parts of the engine. Yes, there is some effect on the valve guides, but this is a minor requirement. On the fuel pump, the fuel itself provides more than enough lubrication.

What you need to be careful of is the interaction of the 2 stroke oil with the fuel, and the gaskets and seals in the fuel system, and the fact that even the best 2 stroke oils will burn with ash as the result. I have had to de-coke many 2 stroke engines (both old and new), and the last thing I would want to do is add something that will increase this.

A DPF, and injection system that can extend the burn into the exhaust cycle to try and burn off the ash may simply mask the potential problems. If there are no reported issues or effects, it may well be because the burn is not changed by that much any way, and the addition i more of a placebo that actually having a beneficial effect, but it may well play havoc with the fuel system.

The biggest danger is when people using it think that if a little is good, then a lot is going to be so much better.

The way I look at is this. It is an open market. If a lubricant manufacturer saw a genuine market opportunity to use something like 2 stroke oil in a diesel engine, there would have been a product on the market already under its own name, and priced at a premium because of the benefits it provided. It would not be marketed as a lubricant for one type of engine but provided as a cheap alternative for another unrelated type of engine. This is no different to the many additives and mods you can do to a petrol engine that supposedly give you this improved engine power. When you drill down you find that if you simply went with the procedures before installing the system, you get the benefits anyway.

Go with it, but just make sure that it is actually providing you with the benefits others claim.

The properties of mineral based 2SO in petrol are different to those in diesel. In petrol it mixes as a solution and can separate out over time but in diesel it bonds since they are similar in nature. The diesel engine is designed to use this fuel and the 2SO enhances the process making it cleaner but in a petrol engine the 2SO burn is less complete, hence the carbon deposits and smoke.
So what you see in a 2 stroke engine does not apply to a diesel engine.
You will find certain grades of 2SO have zero ash.

This is not something new, it's been around for many years and the results are well documented by the owners.
If you care to read some of the evidence you will find it actually extends the life of the DPF.
The placebo comments are an insult to all the people who have tried this. It's strange that even the skeptics among them report improvements when they dearly wanted to be proven right in their negative attitude. The poorest results are the few that report nothing happened but I have yet to see one negative result, which is ridiculous compared to other comparisons.

So say you had a business and one of your employees told you a little of product 'b'[2SO] when mixed with product 'a'[diesel] resulted in several benefits for the user. One of those benefits being that they will need less of product 'a' and spend less in total. Would you start a marketing campaign and give them a rise or kick their arse and tell them you want to increase sales not reduce them?

Try it yourself rather than casting doubt on the word of decent people who are simply passing on their experience to others.

[Diesel_vert]

The presence of any metallic additives in diesel fuel will lead to an increase in ash formation, which reduces the service life of a diesel particle filter (DPF).

For any product that is to be used as a diesel fuel additive, IMO I foresee no significant impact or reduction in the service life of the DPF if the presence of any metallic additives in such a product is nil or zero.

For vehicles fitted or equipped with a DPF, the balance between improved fuel combustion characteristics, ash formation and operating costs needs to be carefully analysed and managed in order to produce an overall net benefit.

For vehicles not fitted or equipped with a DPF, I imagine the cost benefit analysis would be considerably easier to manage.



EDIT - In addition to the absence of any metallic additives, it is also important that the sulfur content of any product used as a diesel fuel additive be nil or zero (ideally) for reasons of long term DPF durability.

The automotive industry (in the developed market) has gone to great lengths to reduce sulfur content in both fuels and engine lubricants in order to enable exhaust aftertreatment devices. Any reintroduction of sources containing sulfur into this system would IMO be undesirable.

The current limit of European and Australian fuel standards for sulfur content in diesel fuel is a maximum of 10 ppm (or 0.001%).

I do not foresee any product with a sulfur content of no more than the above specification would adversely affect the long term operation of the DPF.

[Ryeman]

?.....

For vehicles fitted or equipped with a DPF, the balance between improved fuel combustion characteristics, ash formation and operating costs needs to be carefully analysed and managed in order to produce an overall net benefit.
..........
That's the point, you need a crystal ball to foretell the future combined with a spreadsheet of know and unknown variable factors.
As much as I love my Yeti it's just another example of 'white goods' particularly with China FTA.

[CardinalSin]

That's the point, you need a crystal ball to foretell the future combined with a spreadsheet of know and unknown variable factors.
As much as I love my Yeti it's just another example of 'white goods' particularly with China FTA.

If you read through the experiences that others have had i'm sure you would be reassured that it's a positive result for the DPF.
That's from actual experience, not just theory.

[Ryeman]

I'm not specifying any one item.
All the potential financial disasters involve DSG, Haldex, injectors, turbo, split ac etc etc
For those not equipped to cope, in a DIY sense, with this complexity need to remember that after 5 years any one of these could make your much loved vehicle a financial black hole in quick time.
New cars are sooo desirable at runout time your own car is living on borrowed time.
"Careful analysis" can be painful.
Believe me, I wish it wasn't so and I could continue to do all my own basic maintenance and KNOW it wouldn't burn me financially but emissions and economy targets are killing the new car as a long term prospect and car salesmen love it!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[gldgti]

Ahh this old discussion. Last time this was at the top of the heap I was running b100 in all my diesels so it was a moot point for me. Right now, however, I have no B100 to buy near me so I have been on dino diesel for a while.

I took the audi for a fill up tonight and literally as I was walking out of my garage noticed an old bottle of 2SO in the garage, so I emptied it into the tank before I left - about 120ml.

By the time I'd gone to get fuel and then driven back home again round trip of about 4km, the darned thing was purring even more smoothly than usual.

I did try this in one of my old golfs a few years back when I lived in newcastle and didnt have access to bio then either, and remember something similar happening.

I wont advocate its use to anyone who isnt convinced themselves from all the things they can read, but I'll certainly give it a good go for the next few weeks and see what effect it has on economy, if any. Personally, I have nothing to lose.

[kaanage]

I'll certainly give it a good go for the next few weeks and see what effect it has on economy, if any.

I will also be interesting to see of the Audi starts blowing smoke for a day or so

[wai]

I will also be interesting to see of the Audi starts blowing smoke for a day or so

Just so long as it doesn't start to sound like a Trabant :-D

[CardinalSin]

Just so long as it doesn't start to sound like a Trabant :-D

Just read your fuelly and 6.7L/100km for the 1.6TD Caddy. You must have heavy traffic in your neck of the woods when it's rated at 5.7L/100km. I got the rated 6.7L/100km for my 2.0TD and 2SO oil lowered that to 6.3L/100km by calculation at the pump.
So you could expect the same saving from yours, after all the carbon gets cleaned out and also have it quieter, cleaner and smoother.
The only thing is, it doesn't say 'Diesel fuel additive' on the container but none of those branded diesel fuel additives have ever made any difference when I have tried them.

[gldgti]

I will also be interesting to see of the Audi starts blowing smoke for a day or so

Why would this happen?

[CardinalSin]

Why would this happen?

Because it should clear out the deposits. Several people have reported that older engines smoked a bit on the over-run but it cleared after a few days and they could feel the improvement.

[CardinalSin]

I've a rule in my business - "use always as per instructions" I think it's valid in almost everything in people's life. :???:

I can see where you're coming from now and can understand your point of view.

I was trained in both aircraft and automotive, engines mainly and spent a fair bit of time diagnosing and solving problems. I always enjoyed the problem solving and creative engineering. Prior to that I hated being told to do something 'because I said so' would throw instructions in the bin to do it the hard way and still do. Sometimes I have to fish them out when i'm stumped!

So you accept the instructions as gospel while I always look for a better way and often find them. Our brains are wired differently.

[gldgti]

Because it should clear out the deposits. Several people have reported that older engines smoked a bit on the over-run but it cleared after a few days and they could feel the improvement.
That doesn't make any sense really. The mass of deposited carbon in the combustion chamber is very small. If it all got cleaned out at once, which it certainly won't, it would amount to nothing more than a quick puff of muck.
I've rebuilt enough diesel engines to know what carbon buildup looks like and how and where it builds up.
The only possible reason I could conceive of for temporary smokyness brought on by some kind of fuel related cleaning, would be that between carbon buildup being baked on and flaking off, it might foul the spray pattern of the injectors... But even that seems to be a stretch.
As it happens, my Audi only ever really smokes on startup and I note that today it didn't seem to really.

[CardinalSin]

That doesn't make any sense really. The mass of deposited carbon in the combustion chamber is very small. If it all got cleaned out at once, which it certainly won't, it would amount to nothing more than a quick puff of muck.
I've rebuilt enough diesel engines to know what carbon buildup looks like and how and where it builds up.
The only possible reason I could conceive of for temporary smokyness brought on by some kind of fuel related cleaning, would be that between carbon buildup being baked on and flaking off, it might foul the spray pattern of the injectors... But even that seems to be a stretch.
As it happens, my Audi only ever really smokes on startup and I note that today it didn't seem to really.

I agree when you put it that way but i've seen a few posts that mention some blue smoke for a few days when they lift off but it always stops. Maybe it's to do with the rings in the piston grooves and/or the valve guides. Perhaps better cylinder sealing with the 2SO and therefore higher suction on the over-run pulling some oil through until the crud in the ring grooves is cleaned out and the rings can achieve full range again?
The other aspect is reducing smoking, which you noticed on start up and with a very light mix compared to the usual 1:200.

[Greg Roles]

DPF's primarily clog because of oil ash. I'd want to run additives that have zero ash personally.

DPF approved engine oils have amazingly low oil ash levels compared to the norm.

Still small potatoes compared to the amount of oil blowby stock engines digest.

[kaanage]

Which is why for DPF equipped cars, you should only use JASO FC or TCW-3 spec 2 stroke oil while those without can also use JASO FB.

Clearing carbon deposits from the injector nozzles is the other cause for smoke with cars that have been running on "normal" diesel for a long time when they first run with 2 stroke oil. I thought biodiesel users found the same thing.

[Mysticality]

Yours at 15,000km still clean tail pipes indicate that, YES the car's Diesel Particle Filter trap does it's job trapping the unburned oil and extra soot particles.

My fingers, after wiping the inside of the mid section of the 60,000km-old exhaust pipe of the Octy vRS TDI. (When 3" catback was going in)
Note: Some of it could also be from the grinder the exhaust shop guys used
https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/t31.0-8/p843x403/1497963_10152901537068117_3455447720564635290_o.jp g

The pipes in question
(Next to some of the new stuff)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/q87/p843x403/10258453_10152901537063117_4434345231869882795_o.j pg

[CardinalSin]

Good job you changed it when you did with all that carbon in there! :rolleyes:

Just finished reading about your car in Auskoda. With a stage 2 tune, intake mods and DPF delete the EGT might have helped clean that pipe out. I hope it's out of warranty or they'll be getting their knickers in a twist in here.

[gldgti]

naw he still had a dpf then :-)

[CardinalSin]

If the DPF needs replacing after the warranty runs out it seems a no brainer to give it the flick unless it's something like $300, which I know it wont be. Getting the ECU modified is probably the hard part, especially on Skodas with the locked ECU.
That rear muffler looks like it could be deleted to save some weight and back pressure and I bet it would still be quiet. That's something that could be done during warranty with little chance it will hamper any claims.

Sorry, getting off topic.

[Greg Roles]

naw he still had a dpf then :-)

Yeah a DPF deleted car is going to pump out a ton of soot, especially on a power tune. Quite obvious these days.

[CardinalSin]

Yeah a DPF deleted car is going to pump out a ton of soot, especially on a power tune. Quite obvious these days.

Surely their can't be much soot getting through these days, with the injection and combustion so much more efficient?
If there was, the DPF wouldn't be able to cope.
I had an ML Triton with the 2.5CRD, the 100kw/318nm version. There was never a hint of smoke or soot from the exhaust.
I blocked the ERG, had a switch fitted to keep the throttle valve open, modified the exhaust and had the ECU and boost modified on a dyno. It was putting out 131kw/455nm but there was still no hint of smoke or soot from the exhaust and the economy was slightly better than before.
I did religiously add 2SO at 1:200 to help keep it all well lubricated and clean in there.

Forgot to mention it did have a cat but no DPF.

I still have no idea when my 103TDI is doing a regen? What are the symptoms?

[gldgti]

Surely their can't be much soot getting through these days, with the injection and combustion so much more efficient?
If there was, the DPF wouldn't be able to cope.
I had an ML Triton with the 2.5CRD, the 100kw/318nm version. There was never a hint of smoke or soot from the exhaust.
I blocked the ERG, had a switch fitted to keep the throttle valve open, modified the exhaust and had the ECU and boost modified on a dyno. It was putting out 131kw/455nm but there was still no hint of smoke or soot from the exhaust and the economy was slightly better than before.
I did religiously add 2SO at 1:200 to help keep it all well lubricated and clean in there.

Forgot to mention it did have a cat but no DPF.

I still have no idea when my 103TDI is doing a regen? What are the symptoms?

Take it from a few fellas that have cut open DPF casings for whatever reason - DPF equipped engines produce plenty of smoke and the DPF really works.

FWIW, i see plenty of new diesels (non dpf equipped) that smoke plenty too. It might not be obvious to the guy driving, but its there. New ford territory's and Range-rover sport diesels, I'm looking at you :-)

[CardinalSin]

Take it from a few fellas that have cut open DPF casings for whatever reason - DPF equipped engines produce plenty of smoke and the DPF really works.

FWIW, i see plenty of new diesels (non dpf equipped) that smoke plenty too. It might not be obvious to the guy driving, but its there. New ford territory's and Range-rover sport diesels, I'm looking at you :-)

I'm sure the DPF works well it's just that it must be starting from a low soot level or it couldn't cope and would be doing a regen every day. Some of the trucks that, thankfully, are very rare these days, would have filled it up in between gears.

True, you can't see it unless it's over a certain level but I do ask anyone I know that has followed me if it's clean back there.

Those Range Rovers do pump it out!

[kaanage]

DPF offshoot: A lot depends on how you drive it - tramping on the right pedal at low rpm will smoke big time while at higher rpm, when the turbo is pumping lots of air into the combustion chamber, the same action will produce far less (if any) smoke.

Maybe we should get this discussion split into its own thread
It seems less relevant to 2 stroke oil use than 2 stroke oil discussion was in the additive thread :rolleyes:

[Ryeman]

An 'a' and 'b' breakup of a single thread would remove a lot of confusion maybe.
Prob not pos.

[CardinalSin]

Here's an interesting post with some technical info and pics to compare injectors after using 2SO.

2 stroke oil in diesel...anyone tried it? - Page 6 (http://www.a2oc.net/forum/showthread.php?19041-2-stroke-oil-in-diesel-anyone-tried-it/page6)


"Here's a pic of injectors pulled from a year 2003 Y25DT Opel diesel 110 KW engine (identical to BMW M57 engine).

Compared to injector No2 (80000 km total, therof 5000 km of usage with 2-stroke oil) injector No1 (120000 km total, thereof 40000 km of usage with 2-stroke oil) shows very little signs of deposits.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/01/injektor1082843030056870052-1.jpg
http://data.motor-talk.de/data/galle...ktor-43686.jpg (http://data.motor-talk.de/data/galleries/0/54/8478/14453526/injektor-43686.jpg)
http://data.motor-talk.de/data/galle...8216533859.jpg (http://data.motor-talk.de/data/galleries/0/54/8478/37165318/injektor-2298671598216533859.jpg)

reference: http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/2-tak...-t3624681.html (http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/2-takt-oel-dieselkraftstoff-erfahrungen-t3624681.html)



Below shown is an injector that has never seen any diesel fuel refined with 2-Stroke oil of type API TC + ISO L-EGC + JASO FC

http://data.motor-talk.de/data/galle...0487-64032.JPG (http://data.motor-talk.de/data/galleries/0/7/6055/19339501/cimg0487-64032.JPG)



Some pics of evaporation tests performed by a knowledgeable member of the Motortalk-forum showing the relative degree of carbon/sulfur content of different 2-stroke oils:

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/01/dsc007883550947287341898310JPG-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/01/dsc009994813687324905088197JPG-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/01/dsc010008500700927939215674JPG-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/01/dsc009336876198786545729628JPG-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/01/dsc009367449235721287289391JPG-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/01/dsc010032486415990588876995JPG-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/01/dsc010044578366049749110141JPG-1.jpg




This seems to be one of the least expensive UK suppliers of the recommended type oil:

http://www.fwrm.co.uk/index.php?rout...20two%20stroke (http://www.fwrm.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&filter_name=motorex%20two%20stroke)


BTW the results of TÜV / MOT emission tests for diesels, especially the soot measurement, are noticeably better when using the 2-stroke oil continuously - with or without having a particle filter installed.

Pictured below is my "2-stroke oil station" featuring handy re-usable 200 ml plastik bottles.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/01/paperclippng-1.jpg Attached Thumbnails http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/01/attachmentphpattachmentid9487stc1thumb1d-1.jpg (http://www.a2oc.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9487&d=1339256583) http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/01/attachmentphpattachmentid9488stc1thumb1d-1.jpg (http://www.a2oc.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9488&d=1339256635) http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/01/attachmentphpattachmentid9489stc1thumb1d-1.jpg (http://www.a2oc.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9489&d=1339256665)

[kaanage]

Those injectors pictures pretty much mirror the ones shown on the Freelander2 thread by one of the South African posters. Nice to have another confirmation of the cleaning effect of 2 stroke oil.

Too bad that one of the more recent posters in the a2 thread has no idea of the difference in dilution (and air:fuel ratio) for 2 stroke oil use in diesels vs his previous experience with 2 stroke petrol engines.

Now that this thread has been reopened, should the other one be merged back in?