103kW/125kw TDI PD Piezo Siemens injector failure thread

[Greg Roles]

Hey all,

There's growing evidence that the Siemens injectors fitted to the MKV 125kw engines are starting to fail across the board. Seems to affect the Passat mostly, but as this is basically a GT TDI engine with a counter shaft balancer, the injectors are the same. It seems to be the pizeo portion of the injector that fails, and VW are very aware of the problem and offering revised injectors at exchange with your old ones. I'd like to start a thread to both record the numbers of actual failures, and to inform of any options / fixes as they come to light. I'm doing a lot of research into it, as heck, mine could go at any time, and I'm wondering if I even bother with extended warranty given how modded my engine is starting to look, let alone what it'll look like this year when the big stuff finally happens.

Here's the first of a few interesting articles I've found, but across the world, there are people from Skoda, VW, Seat and even Audi up in arms about the issue. No doubt aftermarket injectors will come, and given the cost VW will no doubt charge, it's the way I'd go. At this stage all I've been able to find is they cost $400ish pound EACH in the UK, love to know what the going price is here.

https://sites.google.com/site/1810martin/siemens-pd-piezo-injectors

Also interested if anyone can tell me why the swapout with warranty cars seems to also include the wiring harness - is it different, or just worth doing while you're in there?

[Greg Roles]

One of many forums reporting on the problem. The GREAt news is there's a link to a UK company that can repair the Siemens. I've sent them an e-mail and will let you know what they say.

UKpassats.co.uk • View topic - Faulty diesel injector? (http://www.ukpassats.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=29552&p=229401)

and the company link....

AP Diesels Ltd - Home (http://www.apdiesels.com/)

[nutttr]

According to the ukpassats link they may be going to ground when they fail - Depending on the voltage/current/wire guage, etc, going to ground may be damaging the wiring, hence swapping it out. It's crazy they are that expensive though and i'm sure it's only a matter of time before they find a way to retrofit different injectors...

[Transporter]

My 2c.

https://sites.google.com/site/1810martin/siemens-pd-piezo-injectors

[gldgti]

thats a great link transporter, thanks!

[kaanage]

desertstorm linked to it in the thread linked in the 2nd post by CogDoc.

One of the Passat owners, here, with a 103kW TDi posted that he also had the same failure, though, and I thought those didn't use the piezo-electric controlled injectors

[Transporter]

LOL, I completely overlooked that Greg already posted that link. Don't worry Greg, I'll clean it up. :)

[OilBurna]

mine failed 103kw tdi I was of the understanding the injectors were the same for the 103kw and 125kw PD's..

[Greg Roles]

Nope they ate different, with the supposedly notorious pizeo part being a 125 thing, may have become common at some stage during lifecycle though. Very interesting if 'normal' 103 injectors are dying too, I thought they were quite reliable?

The more links and info, the better Miro, it's going to take a combined effort to solve this!

[OilBurna]

for the PD versions they both use same injectors, however the 125kw uses a higher pressure, also differences in the ECU and turbo? and the 125kw has the DPF. From wiki and other links they are otherwise the same.

ere is the difference between the 2 TDI engines - the outputs vary within each of the specifcations depending on ECU. The new 2.0 TDI as far as I know, does not have a Variable Geometry Turbo (VGT). This engine is being phased out over the next few years, in favour of an all new design, with the Pump-Dusse injection system being replaced with a Common Rail injections system.

2.0 TDI with 103 kW: 209 kph is the top speed of the 103 kW / 140 bhp (at 4,000 rpm) Passat 2.0 TDI. The four-cylinder engine develops a maximum torque of 320 Newton metres as low as 1,800 rpm, and takes just 9.8 seconds for an easy 0-100 kph sprint before reaching the top speed of 209 kph. Average consumption: 5.9 litres. This TDI performance level can be combined with a diesel particle filter.

Numerous details were modified in order to facilitate the use of an optional, additive-free diesel particle filter in the 2.0 TDI. Some examples: in order to allow the DPF to be mounted as close to the engine as possible, the position of the exhaust turbocharger was changed. The pressure with which the pump-jet element injects fuel into the slightly modified combustion chambers was also increased to as much as 2,400 bar. In addition to this, the pumping characteristic of the pump-jet was modified to allow additional injections for the thermal regeneration of the filter or other reasons. Engineers concurrently succeeded in further reducing the oil consumption, another measure to increase the efficiency of the DPF. The diesel particle filter is maintenance-free, and forms a modular unit with the oxidation catalytic converter.

2.0 TDI with 125 kW: The second 2.0 TDI, fitted with highly innovative piezo pump-jet high pressure injection and a compensator shaft, is a completely new design. This very quiet, four-valve TDI has an output of 125 kW / 170 bhp (4,200 rpm), develops a torque of 350 Newton metres (1,800-2,500 rpm), and accelerates the saloon to 100 kph in just 8.7 seconds. The top speed is 223 kph. Here, too, the average fuel consumption is low, at 6.1 litres over 100 kilometres.

Technically, the 125-kW TDI, with its switched induction manifold for turbulence control, is based on its 103-kW equivalent without diesel particle filter. This cultivated engine is the world's first piezo pump-jet TDI. Further technical features are two compensator shafts (reducing secondary vibrations by up to 80 percent), a maintenance*free diesel particle filter, and an injection pressure of up to 2,200 bar. The specific power of the 2.0 TDI, at 62.5 kW per litre, is a new best. Although the new TDI has power and convenience characteristics that come very close to those of a five- or six*cylinder turbo-diesel, the consumption and emission figures are in the low four-cylinder range.

Technologically, a central factor in the achievement of high power and convenience values together with low consumption is the use of the newly developed piezo pump-jet elements. Using one of the piezo actuators to control the high-pressure valve of the pump-jet permits:

· -very high injection pressure, and thus low emission and optimum specific power.

· -ideal hydraulic efficiency because of the very small high*pressure volume.

· -ideal injection process.

· -very precise, low-volume pre-injection at a low pressure level.

· -flexibly controlled pre- and post-injection and injection intervals.

· -low injection noise.

A further innovation in the TDI is the use of a newly developed compensator-shaft module. The term "module" is easy to explain: the two counter-rotating compensator shafts (turning at twice the engine revs), together with the oil pump, form a separate module located under the cylinder crankcase. The compensator shafts noticeably reduce the amount of vibration that is transmitted to the bodywork.

[kaanage]

Aren't the Piezo pump-jets the newer injectors that are causing the problems? (last gasp for the PD before surcumbing to CR)

[poyta]

No doubt aftermarket injectors will come, and given the cost VW will no doubt charge, it's the way I'd go. At this stage all I've been able to find is they cost $400ish pound EACH in the UK, love to know what the going price is here.

Thats scary - especially considering my warranty has just finished.

[Greg Roles]

Is this from Wikipedia, because if it is, it's got a LOT of mistakes, when I have more time tonight I'll post up the facts.


for the PD versions they both use same injectors, however the 125kw uses a higher pressure, also differences in the ECU and turbo? and the 125kw has the DPF. From wiki and other links they are otherwise the same.

ere is the difference between the 2 TDI engines - the outputs vary within each of the specifcations depending on ECU. The new 2.0 TDI as far as I know, does not have a Variable Geometry Turbo (VGT). This engine is being phased out over the next few years, in favour of an all new design, with the Pump-Dusse injection system being replaced with a Common Rail injections system.

2.0 TDI with 103 kW: 209 kph is the top speed of the 103 kW / 140 bhp (at 4,000 rpm) Passat 2.0 TDI. The four-cylinder engine develops a maximum torque of 320 Newton metres as low as 1,800 rpm, and takes just 9.8 seconds for an easy 0-100 kph sprint before reaching the top speed of 209 kph. Average consumption: 5.9 litres. This TDI performance level can be combined with a diesel particle filter.

Numerous details were modified in order to facilitate the use of an optional, additive-free diesel particle filter in the 2.0 TDI. Some examples: in order to allow the DPF to be mounted as close to the engine as possible, the position of the exhaust turbocharger was changed. The pressure with which the pump-jet element injects fuel into the slightly modified combustion chambers was also increased to as much as 2,400 bar. In addition to this, the pumping characteristic of the pump-jet was modified to allow additional injections for the thermal regeneration of the filter or other reasons. Engineers concurrently succeeded in further reducing the oil consumption, another measure to increase the efficiency of the DPF. The diesel particle filter is maintenance-free, and forms a modular unit with the oxidation catalytic converter.

2.0 TDI with 125 kW: The second 2.0 TDI, fitted with highly innovative piezo pump-jet high pressure injection and a compensator shaft, is a completely new design. This very quiet, four-valve TDI has an output of 125 kW / 170 bhp (4,200 rpm), develops a torque of 350 Newton metres (1,800-2,500 rpm), and accelerates the saloon to 100 kph in just 8.7 seconds. The top speed is 223 kph. Here, too, the average fuel consumption is low, at 6.1 litres over 100 kilometres.

Technically, the 125-kW TDI, with its switched induction manifold for turbulence control, is based on its 103-kW equivalent without diesel particle filter. This cultivated engine is the world's first piezo pump-jet TDI. Further technical features are two compensator shafts (reducing secondary vibrations by up to 80 percent), a maintenance*free diesel particle filter, and an injection pressure of up to 2,200 bar. The specific power of the 2.0 TDI, at 62.5 kW per litre, is a new best. Although the new TDI has power and convenience characteristics that come very close to those of a five- or six*cylinder turbo-diesel, the consumption and emission figures are in the low four-cylinder range.

Technologically, a central factor in the achievement of high power and convenience values together with low consumption is the use of the newly developed piezo pump-jet elements. Using one of the piezo actuators to control the high-pressure valve of the pump-jet permits:

· -very high injection pressure, and thus low emission and optimum specific power.

· -ideal hydraulic efficiency because of the very small high*pressure volume.

· -ideal injection process.

· -very precise, low-volume pre-injection at a low pressure level.

· -flexibly controlled pre- and post-injection and injection intervals.

· -low injection noise.

A further innovation in the TDI is the use of a newly developed compensator-shaft module. The term "module" is easy to explain: the two counter-rotating compensator shafts (turning at twice the engine revs), together with the oil pump, form a separate module located under the cylinder crankcase. The compensator shafts noticeably reduce the amount of vibration that is transmitted to the bodywork.

[RobV]

Hi Greg,
Try $1500 per injector, and its the wiring loom that starts it all. The insulation hardens, cracks and falls apart, then shorts the injectors to ground, and hey prestor, $7500 worth of headache.
Rob V

[OilBurna]

mine was just over $4,000 to replace including loom.

[Greg Roles]

Hi Greg,
Try $1500 per injector, and its the wiring loom that starts it all. The insulation hardens, cracks and falls apart, then shorts the injectors to ground, and hey prestor, $7500 worth of headache.
Rob V

Wow now that's both scary, yet interesting. So perhaps if working looms could be better protected from oil and heat, the problem might be minimised....but it would seem both loom and injectors can fail as both are usually replaced at once on warranty claims.

[Hilly]

So, I gather just the loom itself is over $1,000 fitted? I was thinking maybe it would be "cheap" insurance to replace the loom, but of course most units aren't going to experience this fault (I assume), so it may not be $ well spent?

[Static]

Greg,

Have you been able to find out if this is fixed in new cars ? Looks like I'll be ordering mine Monday.

[Transporter]

Wow now that's both scary, yet interesting. So perhaps if working looms could be better protected from oil and heat, the problem might be minimised....but it would seem both loom and injectors can fail as both are usually replaced at once on warranty claims.

I remember seeing the wiring loom failure on 103TDI Golfs with non-piezo injectors. Also loose injectors being reported on Dieselpower.cz for some time. Usual fix is repair the thread in the cylinder head and seal in injector. Without knowing the full history of the failed engine (car) it will be hard to get at the bottom of what cause the failure as many of causes I read are just speculations (IMO).

[PeDiES]

Hi Greg,
Try $1500 per injector, and its the wiring loom that starts it all. The insulation hardens, cracks and falls apart, then shorts the injectors to ground, and hey prestor, $7500 worth of headache.
Rob V

ive gotten a few of these in at work, the problem isn't the loom breaking its the injector shorting out, thats why when it happens the car will not run at all because it shorts the whole circut.

this doesn't damage any of the other injectors or the loom, the main reason (not only reason) vw will change the loom is because the plugs shatter when removing them (sometimes not, no loom required). To replace them you need a tool kit to get them out (which i have) it includes other peices like dial indicator mount so that you can set up the clearances of the rockers.

To sum up, if it happens to your car you can replace just the one injector, ive only seen number 2 fail so far, but ive only done 2 cars.
No doubt the other might fail but i think its worth the $4500 difference to hope for the best.

[Ozsko]

I am surprised that the injector replacement is not a dealer only job. On one brand I know of anyone can replace the injectors but until they are coded to the car the injector will not work and that is a dealer only job.

[Transporter]

I am surprised that the injector replacement is not a dealer only job. On one brand I know of anyone can replace the injectors but until they are coded to the car the injector will not work and that is a dealer only job.

Yeah, Toyota tried many things to fight aftermarket and it didn't work. :)

[Ozsko]

It works with Mazda, no dealer coding = no go, ask those who have tried to get around it. Panel beaters for instance are finding that after they replace a power steering pump on a Mazda they have to get a dealer to code it also. It surprises me as I said that VW have not gone down this path. Also any one who fiddles with a common rail diesel fuel system had better know what they are doing due to the extremely high fuel rail pressures, it is a job not to be taken lightly. Don't believe it? it's your problem if you get injured.

[benough]

I had one of my injectors fail under warranty but as far as I know the loom stayed.


ive gotten a few of these in at work, the problem isn't the loom breaking its the injector shorting out, thats why when it happens the car will not run at all because it shorts the whole circut.

this doesn't damage any of the other injectors or the loom, the main reason (not only reason) vw will change the loom is because the plugs shatter when removing them (sometimes not, no loom required). To replace them you need a tool kit to get them out (which i have) it includes other peices like dial indicator mount so that you can set up the clearances of the rockers.

To sum up, if it happens to your car you can replace just the one injector, ive only seen number 2 fail so far, but ive only done 2 cars.
No doubt the other might fail but i think its worth the $4500 difference to hope for the best.

[jazd]

So what are the symptoms when an injector fails? Is it catastrophic or does your car just start running on 3 cylinders?

[benough]

Mine just stopped and wouldn't start again. Zero warning.

Maybe you should get onto that used car warranty Jarred?

[PeDiES]

Mine just stopped and wouldn't start again. Zero warning.

Maybe you should get onto that used car warranty Jarred?

most used car warrantys will only cover part cost, hardly worth it

[jazd]

most used car warrantys will only cover part cost, hardly worth it

Yep thats why I'm not bothering.. Whats the deal with VW offering exchanges? I would assume its not free, but I think I read somewhere about them selling the refurbished ones?

[PeDiES]

they will sell you an injector with a core charge which they then return when you return the old injector. The injector cost is there the whole time its just the core charge that comes and goes. My guess is they go back to siemens in mass then the cycle continues

[Greg Roles]

Be great to get a firm price on that, at this stage it seems going OS is FAR cheaper.....

[pongpagong]

mine stalled today, still at the service centre, i guess i'll find out tomorrow, but this injector failure seems to be the case...

will post update as soon as i find out..

[peekay34]

Injector 2 and 4 have failed on mine...wiring loom was repaced when injector 4 failed first....2 died on Tuesday no warning...tow truck job.

[jazd]

Jetta or Golf?

[peekay34]

I have a Golf GT... I just spoke to the dealer it looks like they will be replacing all the injectors

[poyta]

Still under warranty I hope? Bloody hell, I feel like I'm driving a tick time bomb now. Any chance this could become a recall issue???

[RobV]

I asked the VW dealer I brought my TDI sport from if there were any recalls, none are registered according to them. If I was driving a Passat TDI, I would also be very concerned, I have just heard from a friend who's company had 2 in a row, both had major reliability problems. investigate the extended warranty, might just be needed.

[Greg Roles]

I know how you feel!

The sheer number worldwide makes me wonder why there isn't a recall, but hey, I'll do my part to see what's possible...

[Hilly]

I've always wondered who initiates a recall? The manufacturer is obviously going to have stats on the number of vehicles affected, but if they decide to do nothing (and if it isn't a safety issue, then they may not be interested in issuing a recall) , how does a consumer group or consumers find out to put pressure on the manufacturer to do a recall if it is warranted?

[peekay34]

Still under warranty I hope? Bloody hell, I feel like I'm driving a tick time bomb now. Any chance this could become a recall issue???

Yes still under warranty...but I think Volkswagen should recall and replace units with a a different injector. I am definitly taking out extended warranty....

[kaanage]

(and if it isn't a safety issue, then they may not be interested in issuing a recall) , how does a consumer group or consumers find out to put pressure on the manufacturer to do a recall if it is warranted?

It will generally only happen under a class action lawsuit :(

If we could document instances where cars had been involved in accidents (eg rear ended when the engine cut out in the fast lane of a highway/freeway) then there would be a strong case of the issue endangering lives (we know it is dangerous but who knows when lawyers get involved:facepalm:)

[barrenjoey owl]

Great....another "bush lawyer".

[kaanage]

Should I get a barrister to offer an opinion? I know one but who want to bear the cost....?

[pongpagong]

im getting my gt golf tdi today... but they only replaced 1 injector... waited for a week to have it replaced.i now fear driving this car so might give it a toss very soon.

[Transporter]

im getting my gt golf tdi today... but they only replaced 1 injector... waited for a week to have it replaced.i now fear driving this car so might give it a toss very soon.

Just drive it as much as you can and get it as hot as you can. If the other injectors are about to fail, you want them to fail asap. Also always make sure you have the paperwork (what they've done) and keep it for later, if needed.

[Greg Roles]

Ludicrous to just do one. Time VW stepped up and accepted responsibility.

[Static]

Read some interesting stuff on Wikipedia (yes I know not the best source) that confirms when Common Rail was introduced as part of TDI. Transporter has advised that the Common Rail engines don't have the injector problem.

Just thought others might be interested.

Common rail - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_rail_diesel)

[RobV]

I found this US site, might be of interest....

2009 VW Jetta TDI Diesel Models being looked into by NHTSA (http://www.speedlux.com/2009-vw-jetta-tdi-diesel-models-being-looked-nhtsa/)

[OilBurna]

37,000 ouch

can we re name this thread to 103kw/125kw piezo injectors as it affects both versions across the Golf, Passat and Jetta.

[peekay34]

Trouble is if they do a recall overseas ...will it be simply ignored here.

[davidno64]

I would question the "No recalls". I took mine in for both a service and repair. A GT TDI MK5.
I was experiencing intermitant faults. Not starting first time, cruse cont. issues, Glow plug sticking on, Engine error light on dash, Power loss,
DSG sticking in second and holding, etc. These were all intermitant and mostly not at the same time. It was fixed under warrenty (now also to find a scratch in the paint). They had replaced the wireing loom that runs to the MAF. VW knew what it was, when the full list of faults were given and it is a new and known recall to them. Since I have only had one startins issue, but fine on second attempt.

[Greg Roles]

I found this US site, might be of interest....

2009 VW Jetta TDI Diesel Models being looked into by NHTSA (http://www.speedlux.com/2009-vw-jetta-tdi-diesel-models-being-looked-nhtsa/)

Fraid thats the high pressure fuel pump in the new common rails that is failing on mass in the US, they didn't get the mkV 125 tdi's thus avoided our injector woes, different story in Europe and the UK. Hope that US failure is US specific, we don't need more diesel problems!

[VWVIC]

Fraid thats the high pressure fuel pump in the new common rails that is failing on mass in the US, they didn't get the mkV 125 tdi's thus avoided our injector woes, different story in Europe and the UK. Hope that US failure is US specific, we don't need more diesel problems!

Can't win either way. Rail issues with the new fueling and injector failure with the old! :mad:

Hoping for a pick up of a GT tomorrow, and extending the warranty is top of the list...

[kaanage]

The post low pressure filter proposed by eddif at TDiClub (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=284441&page=39) would at least limit the damage in the CR engines to the pump rather than ruining the whole fuel system (injectors/lines/tank...). I wouldn't be surprised if VW (or even Bosch/Siemens who make it) added this at a later stage.

It wouldn't stop the failure (the failure mode proposed by Bluegrass at TDiClub (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=2950970) seems plausible and SHOULD be relatively simple to prevent with a small piston guide) but at least it would be a lot less expensive to fix.

But back to the Piezo injectors...

[Greg Roles]

In a CR I'd be running a major 3 premium diesel, and consider a lubricating additive for the HPFP ( high pressure fuel pump ) even if Bluegrass above is correct. The TDI club crew are onto that though, at least you comon rail guys have the States working on solutions, us PD types are out in the breeze somewhat!

On that, I've tried to contact the place in the UK that claim to be able to rebuild the Pizeo injectors twice to no avail, but I'll keep on it. I've even let them know there are potential customers here waiting!!!

Greg.

[adrian112]

My car carked it, no warning about 6 weeks ago. just stopped abruptly as I was about to take off from the lights.

Scared the pants off me to be honest.

VW Assist & Dealer suspected it was fuel contamination, however they ended up replacing one of my injectors as well...

Didnt know it was such a big problem!

[RobV]

Worth a look, this is a good site on Siemens injectors.
https://sites.google.com/site/1810martin/siemens-pd-piezo-injectors

[kaanage]

Yep, so good that Greg linked to it in the 1st post.

[RobV]

sorry, yr right of course, this issue is in my head and I just jumped, been without my car for 4 weeks and I am a bit P.O'ed. I have been to lots of sites regarding the injectors failing and there is no doubt this is a major problem.

[pongpagong]

adrian, same happened here. did they say anything about the 3 other injectors?

[RobV]

I was informed all injectors and loom required replacing! hugh $$$$$$$'s, I have taken this up with VW and waiting for a final response. Even though my car is over the 100000 K warranty, but under 3 years, I think VW must bear the cost because of the high failure rate of these items.
This isn't the first issue i've had, I also experienced what seemed like a turbo cut out and the car went into limp home mode, restarting worked for a while but the problem always came back. It took the VW dealer 2 goes to fix, first diagnosis was accelerator sensor, it was replaced but the problem came back. I was then informed some mods were done which did fix this problem but the service dep had no record of the second visit......
If any one else had the turbo issue, do they know what was done to fix it?

[kaanage]

4 weeks - that is ATROCIUOS!!!!!!
I'm very sorry for being rude when pointing out the link - you are very rightly P O'd

How old is your car and what mileage had it done when it failed and what model is it? It would help if a detailed list was available to present to VWA.

[poyta]

I was informed all injectors and loom required replacing! hugh $$$$$$$'s, I have taken this up with VW and waiting for a final response. Even though my car is over the 100000 K warranty, but under 3 years, I think VW must bear the cost because of the high failure rate of these items.


I never even heard you had a problem with your car - what happened?

[Greg Roles]

I've not heard of the turbo issue Rob, but if any of the turbo's VNT "vane" actuator sensors play up I know the VNT vanes are set in low boost mode and the car goes into limp, the info bulletins from Erwin on VW highlight that fact.

Sorry to hear of your delimma, definately be contacting the guys in the UK is VW won't pay, but as yet they haven't replied to my numerous emails both personally and from my new business. I'm thinking they aren't on the web much!

My 3 years is up in March, and I have to admit I'm not enjoying driving around in an expensive timebomb. I'm determined to solve the problem, and no doubt options will arise due to demand, but it would be nice if we could start a worldwide campaign to get this done on recall, as there is simply overwhelming evidence of the problem from multiple continents across the usual Audi, Skoda, Seat and VW platforms that used this Siemens injection system. The BMW crew recently banded together and had their own fuel pump issues fixed in the USA thanks to numbers, and BMW came to the party. It's such a shame, as I love the VW diesels, but even my enthusiasm is waning over this issue, as if the DPF and sludge wasn't enough!

Be nice if in the very least VW would let us know if the "new" injectors are a revised part, I wouldnlt be happy paying $1600 an injector for the same item. Anyone got a RRP on the loom as yet?

[adrian112]

My guy @ denlo's didnt say anything about the other 3 however he did mention that they have had a few cases popping up with failed injectors. Also made reference to the talk online about these failures. So looks as though they are aware of the buzz on the forums about this.

Kinda freaked out it would happen again in the middle of the motorway or something... the way my carked it was so abrupt I reckon a major crash could have happened.

[Greg Roles]

I am in the same boat, and I have always accepted the fact my warranty was tenuous because of non dealer services, but to not even offer trade on the parts for a now KNOWN problem is poor PR, especially one so serious.

[pongpagong]

just spoke to a service representative from my VW dealer (wollongong) -following up the recent service they did to my car (replacement of fuel injector). After telling all these tales (my personal experience and this forum's) , she's decided that she will take this up to the Service Manager and i should expect a call very soon.

Will keep you posted once this happens.

[Transporter]

just spoke to a service representative from my VW dealer (wollongong) -following up the recent service they did to my car (replacement of fuel injector). After telling all these tales (my personal experience and this forum's) , she's decided that she will take this up to the Service Manager and i should expect a call very soon.

Will keep you posted once this happens.

Just remember always ask for the invoice from your dealer for every warranty work they do and keep the record.

[RobV]

Loom will be about $300 Greg.
For those following this thread and also have a TDI, your VW may still be under warranty, even if over the 100000K. If you have a full service history with VW, they will, most likely, replace the Injectors under warranty. If not, you will have to fight like me. VW will replace the injectors for me but not the loom to the Injectors which had been first looked at (easily damaged when tested due to deterioration) by a non VW dealer mechanic. I am not 100% satisfied with this outcome, but close too. Just happy to get the car back after 5 weeks!

[RobV]

Sorry kaanage, missed this reply, Just under 3 years old. 115000 Ks. I do lots of K's. I went for the GT Sport over the GTI for economy and longevity of a diesel!

[kaanage]

:( I'm feeling the same way about the HPFP and DPF in my MkVI TDi (tick, tick
, tick, tick, tick...)

RobV, register in this thread set up by Transporter (http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f28/all-pd-piezo-injector-failure-register-55060.html) - my query was made prior to that being set up else I would have directed you there earlier.

[poyta]

VW will replace the injectors for me but not the loom to the Injectors which had been first looked at (easily damaged when tested due to deterioration) by a non VW dealer mechanic. I am not 100% satisfied with this outcome, but close too. Just happy to get the car back after 5 weeks!

Hey sounds like a great outcome considering they just saved you over $6000 worth of injectors. You were lucky they covered those considering you're no longer under warranty. I'd be running out of that dealership screaming " start the car!! Start the car!!! " ikea humour

[ian]

When did they stop using the Piezo injectors in the Gt golf V, mine was built November 2008 Australian compliance Feb 2009
Engine No BMN142xxx, I asked at Barloworld but all i got was a blank stare,seems like Vw dealers are playing dumb over the injectors

[benough]

When did they stop using the Piezo injectors in the Gt golf V, mine was built November 2008 Australian compliance Feb 2009
Engine No BMN142xxx, I asked at Barloworld but all i got was a blank stare,seems like Vw dealers are playing dumb over the injectors

They have always used piezo injectors. It was a GT Sport TDI specific feature.

Just remember those people at the dealers are just sales people or a parts guy just trying to get a clean sheet. It's not there job to know about the finer technical details of the cars

[Greg Roles]

If you can find out, let me know, but I would guess ALL MKV GT's and Passats are in the potential fail category.

[Ozsko]

If there has been a change then the parts guys will know at what VIN it took place, they will not know when that vehicle was produced. No tech bulletin would give the date either just VIN numbers so the dealer personnel cannot be expected to know the date. I reckon that even VW (OZ) would not know when it happened.

[Ozram]

Hmmm, interesting thread.
I'm not suggesting any of you may be tempted to tinker with the high pressure fuel injection equipment, but thought I'd give a little warning about the dangers involved if you do.

The fuel pressure in common rail systems is immense. The flowjet machine that American Chopper uses to cut steel with water pressure runs at about 6-800 bar. Common rail injectors can operate in excess of 2000 bar!
Never loosen or re-tighten a high pressure injector pipe as a means of diagnosis, they are usually single use only pipes - I may be the next one to diagnose your vehicle and don't want a face full of high pressure fuel.
Voltage at the injectors is typically over 200.

And one you may not know..........
A piezo injector is different to the older style CR injector in that it needs two pulses of electrical current to operate not one. A pulse to turn it on and another to switch it off. If you were tempted to electrically disconnect a piezo injector to stop it operating, you may be unlucky enough to disconnect it in the *on* position.

Result - An injector pouring enough fuel into your cylinder to make it hydraulic lock.

Be careful with this stuff guys.

[kaanage]

Where did the CR injectors come into this thread?

So are you saying that the engine gets killed by the ECU, when it detects a Piezo solenoid injector failure, to prevent the possisbility of hydraulic lock. Then the cars just shutting down is more understandable but it seems like a very poor overall design if injector (or loom) failure REQUIRES the engine to shut down in order to prevent catastrophic damage.

And by "older CR injector", do you actually mean "older PD injector" which is closed purely by the return spring ?

[Ozram]

Just a timely reminder about the dangers of high pressure diesel systems. I still get many phone calls from people who think that cracking an injector pipe nut to look for fuel is a good method of diagnosing their broken down vehicle.

No, I'm saying that if you decided to unplug a piezo injector electrically, as a method of checking for a cylinder misfire you could detonate your engine.

No, not pump deuse. By older CR injector I mean solenoid controlled not piezo crystal controlled. The fuel pressure inside the injector is constant, it actually holds the needle in the closed position on the seat. The solenoid or piezo crystal stimulates a port opening that lifts the needle and opens the injector.

[kaanage]

So if the new CR injectors are also actuated using piezo electric crystal stacks, does that mean all the new high pressure CR engines are also prone to this failure mode? :facepalm:

[RobV]

The PD injector issue is obviously well known, would be interesting if any VW mechanic could give numbers to this problem. A friend of mine owned a business and had 2 passats in a row and both failed.(refused to get another one!) he warned me about the reliability issues before I bought my GT sport in 2008, I ignored his advice because mine was a newer model! So this has been around for a long time in Passats. But if the issues is a s big as it seems! (also Check UK web sites) why did VW persist with the same Injector/wiring kit????.
Are the replacements an improvement or the same parts????
Hope my car will be ready today, but my confidence has been shaken in VW reliability.

[Transporter]

So if the new CR injectors are also actuated using piezo electric crystal stacks, does that mean all the new high pressure CR engines are also prone to this failure mode? :facepalm:

It is unlikely, since the CR injectors and their wiring aren't surrounded by hot and dirty engine oil, but for confirmation of that, you have to wait little bit longer.

[Russ59]

Mines been missing a bit every now and then, it has also on occasions been very jerky when I actually switch the engine off (feels a little bit like it's running on) it did this the other day and has been OK since. All this talk of these injectors failing is making me wonder if this is what happened to mine when I first took delivery in 2008, I made mention of what happened in an earlier post and put it down to a cold engine DPF Regen, just wondering now if it could have been an injector issue. Mine is out of warranty in September this year, I think the extended new car warranty will be a definite consideration as it would more than pay for itself in the event of injector failure. I totally agree with others that there should be a recall especially when engine failure in traffic could be life threatening. I'd be interested to hear comments from others as to what symptoms they had experienced prior to their injectors failing.

[Greg Roles]

My vote Russ is oil sludge gumming up your flap mechanism whose job it is to stop airflow for a smoother engine stop. That same sludge causes hesitation problems when the nearby EGR valve can't operate correctly, especially at speed when you plant it.

Have you ever cleaned it out mate?

[Russ59]

My vote Russ is oil sludge gumming up your flap mechanism whose job it is to stop airflow for a smoother engine stop. That same sludge causes hesitation problems when the nearby EGR valve can't operate correctly, especially at speed when you plant it.

Have you ever cleaned it out mate? Hey Greg, it hasn't had any issue with hesitation when I plant it, it still pins you to the seat on acceleration and is very responsive at speed when you put your foot down. Other than checking oil and fluids I haven't laid a spanner on the engine, I took one look under the bonnet of this beasty and decided I'd leave it alone, I still like to get adventurous under the bed sheets but not under the bonnet of a car (not the late model ones at least) Is this something the dealer would know about and fix under warranty or will I have to get my hands dirty? I'm guessing there is already a thread on it here somewhere ? The part that pi$$es me off is that I bought a diesel for reliability and although it hasn't let me down yet (fingers crossed) it would appear that there is a strong possibility it's going to at some stage, whether it be injectors, DPF or some other glitch. I can't imagine not having this car as I love it, but it's annoying to think that VW must be aware of these issues and does nothing about it until people start complaining :(

[Transporter]

If you look under the car at the 2 hoses attached to the intercooler, they are most likely wet from the oil and you may even see the oil drop at the connection. It's like that one every Golf TDI I see and our MK5 in no exemption. Throttle body needs to be cleaned otherwise it will cost much more when the flap fails.

[benough]

Sad news everyone.

My GT Sport failed last Friday. It had been stuttering here and there in the weeks leading up to it.

The dealer just told me that they are replacing all four injectors.

The odometer is 100,256 so my extended warranty is kicking in. SO happy I bought it.

Does anyone know if they are putting the same old injectors that are prone to fail in there if there is a revised version that's better?

Will post again when I know more.

[kaanage]

I spoke to someone today who has a Passat 125kW TDi and he had 2 injectors fail and then replaced a few weeks ago and then the other 2 injectors fail and replaced this week. I told him to make sure the loom was replaced along with the injectors and he was told that they were.

He also asked why all 4 injectors didn't get replaced with the initial failures and he was told that his dealer tried but the company which underwrites the extended VW warranty only authorised the replacement of the failed injectors.

[Greg Roles]

Am heavily researching this and will post good things I come across. At least this site suggests that the replaced injectors and loom are different, upgraded models. A fair bit cheaper in the UK too.

UKpassats.co.uk • View topic - 2.0 TDI Injector Upgrade (http://www.ukpassats.co.uk/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=27275&sid=e5bf4879354f24a80571268c81f7c171)

[Don61]

My 2006 Passat 103kw TDI DSG wagon failed last week, March 2011. It was purchased new March 2007 in Morwell Australia. Its just 4 years old, in immaculate condition with 150,500km on the clock. It has been fully serviced by VW, on time every time.

Problems started months ago with a stutter or misfire at very low speed. This was minor and I was about to report it with the 150,000km service.

Engine just stopped when it had been cruising at 100 kph for about 15 minutes. An engine fault alarm was displayed and glow plug light flashed continuously. Turned ignition off and restarted. Engine started with no alarms and drove for further 45 minutes. Engine was turned off and would not start again. Contacted VW and car was towed away. It was already booked in for its service at local Morwell VW dealer.

Morwell service guy contacted VW and negotiated 70% warranty 30% owner cost split for repair covering labour and materials but exclude towing cost. This seems fair given age and km’s travelled plus outside of warranty. However my expectation is that injectors should last for life of the car say 600,000 km. I note that injector are not listed as a service item in the first 300,000 km

Costs of repair including GST totaled $4,579. This was made up of Labour of $352 and Materials of $4,227. Materials were 4 injectors, 1 harness and 8 head bolts. Of this my 30% share cost $1,374 plus towing cost.

In summary things sometimes go wrong in the real world. VW did come to the party with repair cost. It also cost me and having paid once I don’t want to be hit again by accelerated depreciation when I come to sell the car. VW therefore need to solve this before it damages its reputation.

Thanks to all for the information on this site. Don61.

[Greg Roles]

I've found the guys in the UK are thinking it is the loom rather than the injector itself that shorts...but seems no-one is still sure what is going on. They are having the same sort of failures we are, cars dropping left and right.

Have a few leads on refurbishers, but still awaiting an actual email response!! I'm hanging onto this like a pit bull - mainly because as of April I have no more warranty!!

[jazd]

I've found the guys in the UK are thinking it is the loom rather than the injector itself that shorts...but seems no-one is still sure what is going on. They are having the same sort of failures we are, cars dropping left and right.

Have a few leads on refurbishers, but still awaiting an actual email response!! I'm hanging onto this like a pit bull - mainly because as of April I have no more warranty!!

Bloody hell I hope mine doesnt **** itself. Counting on you to keep us informed ;)

[Greg Roles]

My aim is to get an answer on refurbishment of injectors from the UK. If this is indeed really the case, then the problem isn't quite so scary. Most TDI's will be towards or into extended warranty now, and that only gives you a year or two more, so we need a solution to this problem. If this is indeed a possibility I will look into the loom on my own car, and investigate the possibility of a silicon insulated upgrade. I'm not venturing in there until there is a backup plan in place, no sense tempting fate!

[VWVIC]

If there's anything the rest of us can do who haven't failed yet to get any useful data/observations, be sure to let us know!

[Greg Roles]

The size of it continues to grow...

Anyone else with this problem on 2006 2.0 TDi? Injectors... (http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/audi-s4-a4-a4-cab-b7-chassis/104538-anyone-else-problem-2006-2-0-tdi-injectors.html)

on the upside post #27 does say that Audi DO replace the failed injectors with an upgraded type! Post #31 says a different part number for the upgraded injector.

[Greg Roles]

The Seat guys in the UK have their governments vehicle safety body on the case. Here's hoping some sort of response can be forced:

sticky VAG Injectors VOSA LINK - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum (http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=312488)

[Greg Roles]

I have gotten involved with several UK forums and they are starting to work together on their combined VOSA action. I don't think we have anyone to complain to over here beyond the papers / mags? I am going hunting on the Aussie sites next.....power in numbers!

VAG 170 PS Diesel Injector Failures - VOSA action - BRISKODA.net - The Skoda Forum and Community (http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/197422-vag-170-ps-diesel-injector-failures-vosa-action/page__gopid__2350001#entry2350001)

VRS TDI problems - BRISKODA.net - Page 2 - The Skoda Forum and Community (http://briskoda.net/forums/topic/187513-vrs-tdi-problems/page__st__20__gopid__2350011#entry2350011)

These two threads are very interesting reading, seems you can get a loom for $83 pounds, and an injector for $380 odd, FAR cheaper than here.
Also reading this problem affects the 3.0 Audi TDI as well, seems all the high power PD pizeo injectors were Siemens, and flawed.

[Greg Roles]

In case anyone can read Romanian - here's their VW forums failure thread.....

Injectoare PD 2.0TDI distruse - vwForum.ro - Page 54 (http://vwforum.vwforum.ro/topic/52745-injectoare-pd-20tdi-distruse/page__pid__1553848__st__1060#entry1553848)

[Transporter]

Hm, I think that so far there is no one who is too much out of pocket when the injectors failed. At least in our forum and if there would be someone, cold you please direct him to post his details in this thread: http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f28/vw-diesel-pd-piezo-injector-55269.html#post624276

IMO, as long as the VW fixes their injectors on the cars that are not too old (up to 160,000km or 8 years) when they fail, it's not much to complain about.:?
"The newest" technology could also mean "unproven" and lets be honest the manufacturers aren't only the one to blame for the components failures, they're pushed by the environmental laws to reduce the emissions to ridiculous levels, which means to come with the new technology that is not always reliable or has the problems at the beginning.

:)

[Greg Roles]

I understand mate, but I believe your Toureg may have these injectors too. Is it Siemens or Bosch ECU?

My gripe is the safety issue, read some of the tales from the UK. I don't expect free injectors, but it sucks people are expected to pay even a percentage for non serviceable parts that fail before a reasonable engine lifetime. It's not like it's rare, or only happening beyond 200k.

[Transporter]

Touareg V6 TDI is CR.

[Greg Roles]

...with pizeo injectors I believe! It's the main thing stopping me from upgrading, but hopefully they are Bosch where you can get injector parts over Siemens where you can't. I'm sure they are upgraded, but I am still wary of pizeo technology!

[Transporter]

...with pizeo injectors I believe! It's the main thing stopping me from upgrading, but hopefully they are Bosch where you can get injector parts over Siemens where you can't. I'm sure they are upgraded, but I am still wary of pizeo technology!

I know what you mean. For the similar reasons I don't want to downgrade my T5 to the new T5 4 cyl twin turbo, because so far I didn't have any real failures. The new is not always upgrade to me.

Hopefully your injectors won't brake down. :)

[kaanage]

Greg, I thought you said that the CR injectors were OK, even if they use Piezo-Electric actuation, because the injector and loom aren't immersed in engine oil, which the PD injectors need to be.

[poyta]

Hm, I think that so far there is no one who is too much out of pocket when the injectors failed. At least in our forum and if there would be someone, cold you please direct him to post his details in this thread: http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f28/vw-diesel-pd-piezo-injector-55269.html#post624276


Mark my words I'll be "that guy" when/if my injectors go - if my track record of getting things replaced under warranty are anything to go by.

[Greg Roles]

Greg, I thought you said that the CR injectors were OK, even if they use Piezo-Electric actuation, because the injector and loom aren't immersed in engine oil, which the PD injectors need to be.

Good point mate, but oil seems to be hardening the plastic insulation on the loom ( as you expect from long term oil immersion ) whereas the Pizeo component insulation seems to be more an internal design flaw. The parts theorised to fail thus far are totally sealed within insulation, and it would appear oil has no role in the actual injector failure from current facts available.

I'd think the new CR has better injectors, and the fact they have gone back to Bosh ( with all the spares ) is a good move, and that combined with a second generation DPF makes for a much improved diesel experience, but I'm still not sold on Pizeo technology until the failure mode is revealed.

[Greg Roles]

From yet another thread full of failure, some hard facts at last!!!

A3 TDI PD injector loom issues - Audi Mag | VAGOC.co.uk (http://www.vagoc.co.uk/vb/showthread.php?t=238)

NEW improved loom 03G971033L @£82.28
injector 03G130073TX @£556

Old part numbers, just so you can cross reference, this info came from Audi Hatfield.
loom 03G971033D
injector 03G130073MX

The old loom: Part number suffix 'D' dropped on 01/04/2008 and changed to suffx 'L' according to ETKA.

[benough]

I'll have to check my invoice from my injectors and see if the part numbers match.

[poyta]

So if there's an improved loom out there why doesn't VW just do a recall to have them replaced and avoid any potential future issues? Surely the recent reported problems is hurting their reliability reputation?

[stickshift3000]

So if there's an improved loom out there why doesn't VW just do a recall to have them replaced and avoid any potential future issues? Surely the recent reported problems is hurting their reliability reputation?

I deal with recalls on a daily basis, but sadly, until there's a serious injury or the ACCC gets wind of the seriousness of the issue (hint) it's unlikely that a recall will be voluntarily be conducted by vw.

A recall wil hurt their rep way more than not conducting one... don't forget it hurts their bottom line even more, they are a business after all.

[Halcyon]

I've read most of this thread, but haven't seen the answer to this: do the TDI common rail motors have the same injectors (Siemens) that were giving trouble and if so do they still give trouble?

[kaanage]

Some previous posts

Greg, I thought you said that the CR injectors were OK, even if they use Piezo-Electric actuation, because the injector and loom aren't immersed in engine oil, which the PD injectors need to be.


Good point mate, but oil seems to be hardening the plastic insulation on the loom ( as you expect from long term oil immersion ) whereas the Pizeo component insulation seems to be more an internal design flaw. The parts theorised to fail thus far are totally sealed within insulation, and it would appear oil has no role in the actual injector failure from current facts available.

I'd think the new CR has better injectors, and the fact they have gone back to Bosh ( with all the spares ) is a good move, and that combined with a second generation DPF makes for a much improved diesel experience, but I'm still not sold on Pizeo technology until the failure mode is revealed.

[Greg Roles]

I'd say that, at this stage, common rail is fine. But so too, it took some time for the PD Pizeo injection problem to surface.....

In my opinion, at this stage, fuel quality is the biggest problem facing common rail owners, as any impurity can cause havoc to the fuel system and the strung out high pressure fuel pump that is dying left and right in the USA at present. Haven't heard too much about it in the Euro/Aust versions though, and if you have a CR, I'd be quite confident it's all fine, and run decent fuel all the time.

[kaanage]

I still think that the piston design in the CR HPFP is flawed and only operates reliably when all the components are in perfect condition so some extra lubrication in the fuel is a good idea.

But only time will tell if the piezo electric setup is more reliable in the CR setup vs the late PD one.

[neromonk]

My Passat 2.0 TDI 103kW wagon is a 2007 model, purchased new in Feb 2007.
It had been getting a little bit sluggish in starting up over the past few months which I had put down to a weakening battery - after all it was over 4 years old.
In late April 2011, the car engine cut out and the car came to a stop as we were approaching traffic lights, fortunately in the left hand lane, but unfortunately on a fairly busy Sydney road.
The engine would not start or even turn over and VW Assist sent the NRMA man to jumper the battery. That didn't work and so we ended up being towed to the dealer.

The dealer diagnosed two faulty injectors and, after discussion with VW Australia (so I am told) and further discussion with the extended warranty people, went ahead and replaced all 4 fuel injectors and the harness.
The total bill for the 4 injectors, harness, 8 bolts, labour and GST came to $4,464.70.
I was without the car for 1 week (including 1 day public holiday).
I took the opportunity to get a new battery fitted at the same time, just to make sure I didn't get stranded again. The car is now going fine.

The service advisor said that VW Australia had advised that all 4 injectors had to be replaced together and initially the extended warranty people had resisted to approve that until shown the appropriate documentation. (I wish I had gotten a copy of that now.)

I checked in my copy of VW Self-study Programme 352 "Unit Injectors with Piezo Valves", available from erWin for a price, or these days I believe there are copies floating around on the internet.

The section titled Variations or piezo-type unit injector Technical status 03/2005 says...
"There are two versions of the piezo-type unit injector, the first model (PPD 1.0) and the model described in this self-study programme (PPD 1.1). The first version is already being used in the 2.0l, 103kW, 4V TDI engine for the Passat from model year 2006 and will be gradually replaced by the latest version (PPD 1.1). These two types can ony be distinguished by the parts numbers stamped on them and are not interchangeable. If a combination of the two is fitted, the engine will run poorly"

I am surmising that my injectors were originally the 1.0 version and the new ones going in would obviously be 1.1. This is why all 4 had to be replaced.
The part number for the new injectors fitted to my car is VW03G130073SX.

This brings up the question on why version 1.1 came into being. Was there a fault or a weakness in the design or manufacture of version 1.0? Obviously there was some reason to make the upgrade and it didn't change the fuel consumption or engine power output or any other specifications that I am aware of. Certainly it didn't result in cost reduction. That leaves reliability as highly likely to be the reason.

Therefore, if TDI engines have been manufactured and sold with a component that is likely to fail and leave the car unable to move at some indeterminate random time, surely that is a safety concern (it is in Sydney traffic, that's for sure). Should there be a recall to change out the unreliable injectors before they fail and cause problems? Or should there be some other exchange arrangements that doesn't rely on negotiations with the extended warranty provider or (for those without warranty) presenting the owner with a large bill to replace what was a known faulty part?

The trauma of being stuck in traffic with an immobile car for a couple of hours and then being without the car for a week was bad enough. But it could have been a lot worse!

[benough]

From yet another thread full of failure, some hard facts at last!!!

A3 TDI PD injector loom issues - Audi Mag | VAGOC.co.uk (http://www.vagoc.co.uk/vb/showthread.php?t=238)

NEW improved loom 03G971033L @£82.28
injector 03G130073TX @£556

Old part numbers, just so you can cross reference, this info came from Audi Hatfield.
loom 03G971033D
injector 03G130073MX

The old loom: Part number suffix 'D' dropped on 01/04/2008 and changed to suffx 'L' according to ETKA.

Just checked my invoice and I have all the new revised part numbers. Phew!

[Greg Roles]

...one of which has just failed after being replaced in a UK guys Audi.

THAT will be bad if the revised parts start falling over as well. Hopefully this is a one off.....

[benough]

Don't tell me that!

[Greg Roles]

None of us want to hear it mate!

EDIT: False alarm, turns out the second failure of the same injector in the Audi in question was a factory reconditioned "old" one.

Still is worth asking the question if you are getting injectors replaced, are they the newer "TX" or a reco old one???

[kaanage]

NEW improved loom 03G971033L @£82.28
injector 03G130073TX @£556

Old part numbers, just so you can cross reference, this info came from Audi Hatfield.
loom 03G971033D
injector 03G130073MX

The old loom: Part number suffix 'D' dropped on 01/04/2008 and changed to suffx 'L' according to ETKA.


My Passat 2.0 TDI 103kW wagon is a 2007 model,

The part number for the new injectors fitted to my car is VW03G130073SX.
The similarity between the part numbers for the 125 and 103 PD TDi's injectors is interestering.
And the failure of 103's in the same manner is a BIG concern given the larger number of these cars (although this + the smaller reported number of failures could mean that they are much more reliable and neromonk is just unlucky)


Certainly it didn't result in cost reduction.
I wouldn't be so certain of that. Siemens just might not pass any on the cost savings to VAG.

[Quantum]

My Passat 2.0 TDI 103kW wagon is a 2007 model, purchased new in Feb 2007.
....
The section titled Variations or piezo-type unit injector Technical status 03/2005 says...
"There are two versions of the piezo-type unit injector, the first model (PPD 1.0) and the model described in this self-study programme (PPD 1.1). The first version is already being used in the 2.0l, 103kW, 4V TDI engine for the Passat from model year 2006 and will be gradually replaced by the latest version (PPD 1.1). These two types can ony be distinguished by the parts numbers stamped on them and are not interchangeable. If a combination of the two is fitted, the engine will run poorly"

I am surmising that my injectors were originally the 1.0 version and the new ones going in would obviously be 1.1. This is why all 4 had to be replaced.
The part number for the new injectors fitted to my car is VW03G130073SX.




...one of which has just failed after being replaced in a UK guys Audi.

THAT will be bad if the revised parts start falling over as well. Hopefully this is a one off.....

Given they are failing in vehicles built in late 2007 and they aren't replacing all four then it would appear that PPD 1.1 injectors are also faulty. :(

BTW, I see paulfs has had some joy with SEAT: Leon FR TDi Injector problem [Archive] - SEAT Cupra.net - SEAT Forum (http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-268033.html)

[Greg Roles]

The latest from the UK Audi guys:

Also some shocking new detail from an Honest John poster:

You didn't have a new injector fitted at any time if the part numbers you quote are correct.

The suffix "X" on a VAG part number signifies a re-worked old part supplied as a service replacement.

So, same old rubbish re-worked. Nice people to do business with.

The injector 3 that failed again on my car was a refurbished old piece. So when they go around swapping these injectors at full price, they are fitting in someone else's old failure with some parts changed...

Basically the same injector... is there even a new improved one, or is it a myth and we're going in circles?????

[Transporter]

...and on the top of that, the some people with the failed injectors are lazy or just don't want to note their failed injector(s) in this thread http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f28/all-pd-piezo-injector-failure-register-55060.html ;)

[gldgti]

rebuilding injectors is a practice as old as the hills (or as old as diesel injectors anyway). I don't think thats unusual..... they should probably tell you though.

I thought someone said they couldn't be repaired.... clearly they can!

[Greg Roles]

Problem is in the Pizeo part, and they *can* be rebuilt by VAG as they can access Siemens parts, but only VAG have that luxury. There is one place in the UK reconditioning them, but they re-epoxy the pizeo stack, and even they saw there is a failure rate amongst the rebuilt ones. Even though you are putting in new parts, the mode of failure looks like there isn't enough insulation, so the small distances between parts that need insulation remain even when rebuilt. In my thinking all you have done with a reco is buy yourself another 100k max.

They need a redesign, and I'm waiting with baited breath to see what the boys in the UK can get out of VAG with their complaints to their motoring watchdog, and boy do they have numbers over there! The TX version may be a redesign, it's just that VAG is being tightlipped about the issue, and that is my biggest gripe. It's obviously about the money, screw the customer.

[kaanage]

A lot of the blame is probably Siemens rather than VAG (I would think that VAG send them the failed injectors for refurbishing). But VAG should be pressuring them for an ECU update/replacement that doesn't shut down the whole engine when an injector fails.

[munners5968]

latest victim (!) - bought a 2008 Passat wagon, 125KW, 47000km's on the clock, bought one month ago from Canberra dealer "National Capital Motors" - non VW) ; so still under dealer statutory 3 month / 5000km warranty. Injectors failed today. Adelaide's VW Dealer "Solitaire" (car flat bedded there) in Adelaide SA immediately called and said Yes they know this site and this thread (!!!) They have done 6 VW's with same issue so far; they will liaise with dealer in Canberra as they should cover under statutory warranty; fingers crossed its that easy....we will see....

[Greg Roles]

Sorry to hear, but glad that at least VW are "aware". The noise about it is only going to increase, a lot of people working together across the globe now. Shame, I love the brand otherwise!

[benough]

Yeah I don't love the brand any less. It's a first gen product, you can expect these things.

MK2 Heater core hoses used to detach under pressure and fill the passenger foot well with hot coolant. I imagine in 1992 that would have made you furious that your $30k hatch had such a defect.

That said I still love driving the MK2, even after having to remove the dash :facepalm:

[Greg Roles]

I'd take a water burn to the foot over a truck rear ender at 100kph... just got this sent to me.......

This is my ENTIRE gripe, it isn't a leaking sunroof or rattles in the dash, it's going to get someone hurt.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2011/06/latest-1.jpg

[poyta]

Yeah that is scary - I wonder how sudden the engine shutdown and a stop is, I wonder If I'd have enough time to put the clutch in and just coast slowly to the side if that ever happened.

[stickshift3000]

I wonder how sudden the engine shutdown and a stop is, I wonder If I'd have enough time to put the clutch in and just coast

I'm sure you would. When I've blown motorbike engines at the track (twice) you'd be surprised how quick you can whip the clutch inw ithout having to think about it.

It's the dsg boxes I'd be a bit worried about!

[kaanage]

It'd feel like you lifted of the accelerator completely, that's all. It's not like an engine seizing up.

Nothing to worry about (except for the traffic that can rear end you)

[benough]

Just for some experience.

For me I was going round a tight bend doing about 60km/h.

The car went "Ding!" and shut down but b/c the car's key was still switched to "ON" the ancillaries still function.

So The steering was ok (because I was still rolling), I put the clutch in and steered off the road. The brakes were fine.

I think also people should try and get into the habit of using your hazards. For me it's a reaction now if I slow down, stop, anything other than normal driving, whack em on.

[jazd]

I think also people should try and get into the habit of using your hazards. For me it's a reaction now if I slow down, stop, anything other than normal driving, whack em on.
Also use Vag-Com to set them to turn on automatically when you emergency brake. I have mine set and it hasnt come on yet, Its not as sensitive as my parents Peugeot which would turn the hazards on if you brake too hard at a red light ;)

[munners5968]

Ok, GREAT SERVICE from Solitaire VW Adelaide. All injectors and new loom done on 2008 TD 125KW wagon, yesterday - car home again (car flat bedded to them Monday). VW Australia approved DESPITE car being out of warranty (expired Jan 2011) , we are NOT original owners and last service (45,000km) was NOT done at VW.

We have bought cars from Solitaire (Landrover) before and sericed them there so they know us - but we are rapt with this result - all done within 3 days!!!!!!!

[benough]

Sounds like VWA are changing their tune based upon the frequency of these failing.

[hippyhippy]

does this problem affect tiguan diesels?

[poyta]

Ok, GREAT SERVICE from Solitaire VW Adelaide. All injectors and new loom done on 2008 TD 125KW wagon, yesterday - car home again (car flat bedded to them Monday). VW Australia approved DESPITE car being out of warranty (expired Jan 2011) , we are NOT original owners and last service (45,000km) was NOT done at VW.

We have bought cars from Solitaire (Landrover) before and sericed them there so they know us - but we are rapt with this result - all done within 3 days!!!!!!!

Good to hear. Those guys seem to have a bit of a bad rep around these parts so its nice to see them doing something good to try and rectify their perception.

[Transporter]

does this problem affect tiguan diesels?

No, it doesn't.

[Greg Roles]

Affects ONLY the PD170 BMN engine in the VW range, but also the PD 3.0 TDI in Audi from what I am reading, plus potentially the same item used in some BMW and Merc cars 2006-2009.

GREAT to hear, good result. Still seems to be luck of the draw.

I have the revised loom coming from the UK thanks to my brother over there, and will fit it and do a writeup of the old loom and what I find. Hopefully it will keep my own injectors running a bit longer than they would have otherwise!

[jazd]

Affects ONLY the PD170 BMN engine in the VW range, but also the PD 3.0 TDI in Audi from what I am reading, plus potentially the same item used in some BMW and Merc cars 2006-2009.
Seems to be a lot more engines than the BMN, http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f28/all-pd-piezo-injector-failure-register-55060-2.html
Also you named the thread "103/125kW".. what am I missing here.. confused.

[Transporter]

Seems to be a lot more engines than the BMN, http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/f28/all-pd-piezo-injector-failure-register-55060-2.html
Also you named the thread "103/125kW".. what am I missing here.. confused.

...what are you confused about? If, you have more informations, then share it with us, please. No need to get confused. :)

[Greg Roles]

Mate when I started this thread I had no idea as to exactly what was affected, nor did anyone worldwide really, it's all been a recent awareness to the general public. Transporter feel free to ammend title to just 125kw PD170.

103kw injectors do fail as well, but rarely, and generally not due to design flaws like the 125kw ones.

[DOUBLECAB]

Affects ONLY the PD170 BMN engine in the VW range, but also the PD 3.0 TDI in Audi from what I am reading, plus potentially the same item used in some BMW and Merc cars 2006-2009.

GREAT to hear, good result. Still seems to be luck of the draw.

I have the revised loom coming from the UK thanks to my brother over there, and will fit it and do a writeup of the old loom and what I find. Hopefully it will keep my own injectors running a bit longer than they would have otherwise!


Hi Guys................just found this thread and looked up my vehicle data in the service schedule of my 2008 GTD and it states......GOLF 2,0 GT 125KW FTDI D6F. BMN- KMW LA7W-------- RT, so does that put mine on the danger list?

[Transporter]

Mate when I started this thread I had no idea as to exactly what was affected, nor did anyone worldwide really, it's all been a recent awareness to the general public. Transporter feel free to ammend title to just 125kw PD170.

103kw injectors do fail as well, but rarely, and generally not due to design flaws like the 125kw ones.

I think we leave the title as is, for now.

[jazd]

So it is only the BMN that has this issue? There seems to be a lot of Passats with the 125kW engine in that thread I posted that have failed injectors, but thats the BMR engine.

[Greg Roles]

All varients of the PD 125kw engine. For the Passat/Golf it would include the BMN/BMR. I only have all the documents for the Golf.

Fraid so double cab.

[Preen59]

Probably the new Caddy 2.0TDI, too. From what my mate "in the know" reckons..

[neromonk]

My engine code is BKP and I had two injectors fail and got all 4 replaced. See post #114 in this thread.
I've also put my details into the All PD Piezo Injector Failure Register on this forum.
Engine codes listed in the register so far are BMR, BMN, BKP, and quite a few unknowns.

[Transporter]

... and some who complained, didn't bother to register, so there is few more that could be in that thread.

[Greg Roles]

I'd sure be interested to know, for the PD170 ended up in a lot of cars and across several brands, and I really only know the BMN backwards.

[Greg Roles]

Facebook page started. We need your membership and input. Strength in numbers, please get onboard.
We have several experts from around the world across the various car brands affected joining the admin team.

http://www.facebook.com/VW-AUDI-Skoda-Seat-Pd170-TDI-Injector-Failure/156033921135623 (http://www.facebook.com/CarformanceAU#!/pages/VW-AUDI-Skoda-Seat-Pd170-TDI-Injector-Failure/156033921135623)

[jazd]

Do I have to like it?

[Greg Roles]

The page - yes. The problem - no.

[kaanage]

Probably the new Caddy 2.0TDI, too. From what my mate "in the know" reckons..
But that's got the CR 103kW engine as used by the Golf MkVI, Tiguan, EOS, Jetta...

[Preen59]

But that's got the CR 103kW engine as used by the Golf MkVI, Tiguan, EOS, Jetta...

I said probably. Advice from someone I trust. I'm not necessarily right. :)

[kaanage]

Not saying whether your friend's comment was right or wrong but more thinking about the consequences for VW (not to mention the rest of VAG) and the MUCH larger pool of potentially troublesome cars.

[Greg Roles]

It's a big reason why I haven't upgraded, at a time it would be normal for me to do so ( 3 year mark ). Pizeo technology is still evolving. I'm not convinced it's perfected as yet, and yes, it could become a huge headache in years to come. Less likely though as CR removes the oil to loom/pizeo stack contact that seems to be the cause of the MKV problems. Time will tell.

If you look back there was zero talk of MKV problems for the first few years, certainly I found nothing about it back in 2008 when researching my potential GT TDI purchase of the time. CR injectors could be falling over here and there already, just not in numbers big enough to hear about as yet.

[Transporter]

CR piezo injectors are at least 8 years old and they shoud be more reliable. But generaly speaking the life of the CR injectors is shorter than PD injectors (non piezo), it should be at least 200,000km

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2011/06/5883720741_5ee623dfa8_b-1.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/60080395@N04/5883720741/)

[Greg Roles]

Audi UK have begun contacting people with failed cars offering reimbursement of costs, and to replace all remaining injectors and loom. Seems their VOSA action, which is their government watchdog, has forced the issue, and Seat UK are following suit. VOSA had 90 case claims in a 3 month period. There is a similar action happening here in Australia, but it's early days. I will let everyone with a failed car know who to talk to when we get to that stage, and I know of a LOT more than on our register, both with VW and across the brands.

Shame it's still just a reconditioned old part, with a possibly better oil seal on the new loom.

[Greg Roles]

Please see my latest post #248 in my "serious" thread", I fitted my UK sent "improved" loom tonight, and it was a mission. The Audi sourced code earlier on in this thread is a DIFFERENT part in several ways, and whilst I managed to get it to work, it's obviously an Audi or at least UK specific part.

I'm still glad I did so, for whilst the wiring insulation wasn't as hard as I expected, it certainly wasn't new, and was quite faded, and my old loom was early 2007, and from what we know to date, definately in the era of failing parts.

I took video of the process, but will hold off putting it together, as this isn't something I recommend people do till we find the reason for the pretty considerable differences in looms.

[Greg Roles]

A copy of the UK VOSA letter going out to UK Audi owners....

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2011/07/untitled4png-1.jpg

[Transporter]

I like the point 2. in that letter. :)

[Greg Roles]

...and if VAG group here do something similar, I'll let it be.

[harlie]

I have a 103TDi golf V 106000km, extended warranty ran out 3 weeks ago. Car flat bedded to dealer on Thursday night after stopping in peak hour traffic. It will start and run for about 10sec and stop again. Late Friday I’m told it is going to cost me ~$4800 for 4 injectors and loom.

[Greg Roles]

PM replied!

The 103kw runs the Bosch system, and it's much less likely these will fail, unlike the Siemens in the PD170 / 125kw this thread is mainly about. Bosch parts are available individually, so that is a plus. If you have dealer history on servicing I'd like to hear how VW can argue it's your problem entirely, as the injection system is a NON SERVICABLE PART, and could be expected to last a reasonable lifetime in an engine, say 250-300kms? I'm sure a lawyer could easily argue that in small claims. In the least VW should come back with an offer to part pay ( take the hint VW ), but so too I'd be going straight to VW head office, who are all too well aware of the injector problems out there, and bring their attention to all the things mentioned in this thread, the facebook page, you name it.

I'd be suprised if you car does in fact need all four injectors and loom, that is usually more the Siemens approach, but it may be that the 103 has failed in enough numbers for VW that the only fix is the same "replace it all" solution. Be nice to be able to get the exact fault codes out of VW, but of course they want to keep these issues as quiet as possible to prevent having to payout on their manufacturing flaws. See what they come back with, be nice to hear of them doing the right thing up front.

[Transporter]

Of course Greg, once the car is out of warranty they will push to replace everything that may be affected by the fault or cause it (even by a small chance), but hey should it be under the warranty you could straggle to convince them to do the same. :facepalm:

On the topic "reasonable fuel injector life"; I think it is an uncharted territory and you can forget about, that in the past injectors lasted a long time.
1. The diesel fuel has changed and is not the same as in the past.
2. and obviously, it is not the same injector as in the past, so the manufacturer could argue that ever increasing demand on a clean air forced them to speed up some technologies (some invented 1/2 the century ago).

Of course that repeated fuel injector failures before your car reaches 150,000km or even better, well before 100,000km as we see here is not acceptable and VW knows it. I just saw that someone was told that there is 7 Years warranty on the replacement injectors. http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/forums/f28/all-pd-piezo-injector-failure-register-55060-2.html#post703547

[harlie]

Thanks guys – Austral are addiment that all 4 should be replaced at a cost of $4977!!
Injector to be used is 03G130073GX – so not even a new part. I asked if my car had a bosch system and was told “No it’s genuine VW” – haha. I think the people making the recomendations really don't know about any differences between the 2 (bosch v Siemens)

I’ve contacted VWA and a case has been raised with their Warranty people, so it’s a waiting game now, we are in the position that we can get by minus a car indefinitely so I’m not rushing anything.

[Greg Roles]

I'm watching this case with great interest, be really bad news if the 103 injectors start falling over as well, far more of them out there than the already cursed 125 PD....

[kaanage]

There has been at least one other 103kW PD failure reported in this thread :(

[harlie]

I’ve just been told for the 2nd time that VWA will not contribute anything towards my injector problem, and I’m to be charged full retail.

[benough]

Man, that is rough.

I think you should try it on with an ombudsman or a competition consumer agency.

VW have come to the party and also gone halves with people for the same issue and have been further out of warranty.

[Greg Roles]

I am very sad to hear that, but as it's a 103kw, and these things havn't shown up in numbers like the 125, I can't really comment. Very poor form all the same anyone is expected to pay full retail on a non servicable part in a sub 100km car. That is not a reasonable engine life in my opinion. Anyone in a similar boat, you can get injectors from the UK at a FRACTION of what VW here want to charge, but obviously you have to wait while it ships. Australian pricing is ludicrous.

[yowie]

Underwhelmed to say the least.
A cared-for car should last.
My last was an '86 Corona (22RE) bought new and sold this year to a mate's son who still punts it weekly between the Gold Coast and Brisvegas.
Our VW extended warranty will time out before we drive the 150,000 or whatever it is, and I am not sure I want to carry that sort of risk.

[Transporter]

Underwhelmed to say the least.
A cared-for car should last.
My last was an '86 Corona (22RE) bought new and sold this year to a mate's son who still punts it weekly between the Gold Coast and Brisvegas.
Our VW extended warranty will time out before we drive the 150,000 or whatever it is, and I am not sure I want to carry that sort of risk.

If it lasts 150,000km then you should be OK. You have CR injectors they're reliable but may not last as long as PD injectors (non piezo) but they're cheaper. As for the DSG, if it was fault free until 150,000km then you should be OK. I plan to keep the Tiguan with the same engine for at least 10 years and previously had Subaru Forester. I've done my homework before replacing the Forester with the Tiguan. I know it is reliable and it will last. :)

[stickshift3000]

I am very sad to hear that, but as it's a 103kw, and these things havn't shown up in numbers like the 125, I can't really comment. ... Anyone in a similar boat, you can get injectors from the UK at a FRACTION of what VW here want to charge, but obviously you have to wait while it ships. Australian pricing is ludicrous.

How much do they cost from the UK Greg?

[Greg Roles]

330-400 pounds is what I see on the various forums for the 125kw ones. I can get a firm price from a local dealer near my brother over there if you need one or more....but you need the exact part number, I had a lot of "fun" fitting the different Audi loom to my VW, they don't necessarily carry that same connectors or wiring!

[stickshift3000]

Thanks for that, I'll be sourcing them from the UK if the worst was to happen to mine!

I really feel for the owners of these cars 10 years from now if they experience injector breakdowns. The repair will cost more than the car...

[kaanage]

If it lasts 150,000km then you should be OK. You have CR injectors they're reliable but may not last as long as PD injectors (non piezo) but they're cheaper.
Maybe not - Yowie's Golf is a Pacific variant so it is almost certainly a PD (but not the 125kW version that seems much more prone to injector failure).

[Transporter]

Maybe not - Yowie's Golf is a Pacific variant so it is almost certainly a PD (but not the 125kW version that seems much more prone to injector failure).

You're right it's still Golf5. :)

[yowie]

Yep, it is a last-of Mk 5, so PD.
Has given no hint of trouble to date, hoping it stays that way.
Thanks for the feedback.

[Greg Roles]

Pacific is the Bosch 103kw engine, and despite poor Harlie's experience, isn't overly prone to failure. The 125kw had pizeo injectors, not the 103 from what I understand....they were "new" for the souped up diesel.

[jazd]

Info on piezo injectors, no wonder they are expensive
Piezo injectors > TDI Engines > Powertrain > Innovation > Experience > Volkswagen International Homepage (http://www.volkswagen.com/vwcms/master_public/virtualmaster/en2/experience/innovation/powertrain/start/piezo_injectors.html)

[harlie]

Finally have the car back, I was going to transport it home and source parts, do the work myself (or get Jmac in) but I simply have too much on ATM and Austral wanted $220 to give me the car unfixed (add transport home and I wasn’t going to save much, if anything).

To add insult to injury:- It has always been a bit Smokey under heavy throttle usage, and for the past 18 months it has been lethargic to start (most times), both these issues have disappeared COMPLETELY with the replacement of injector #2 – I had the car to Austral VW and Weber’s P&P for these issues twice over the last 12 months – while the extended warranty was still running, obviously not diagnosed (Austral tried to sell me a new starter).

I’ve seen the faults that were recorded, interesting thing is that most of the 103kw that have failed (they have been rare) - the car will still start, and shut itself down 10-12 sec later, all smoothly. The ECU is shutting down after detecting the problem, clear the fault and it drives for quite a while - so the problem is very different to the 125 engines, where it shorts out the bank, only restart after the faulty one is unplugged.

[yowie]

Mine also smokey under acceleration, but I figure that goes with the territory.
I dont see any reason to panic though. Many kays of 103 TDI happy-motoring ahead.
Harley, I cant tell whether you are happy it's not a warranty issue. If you still consider it a warranty issue and you gave the trader a chance to fix, for 90-odd bucks you can get a no-frills hearing at QCAT.

[rockDAhouse]

well ... i'm in the market for a 08 GT DSG, after reading this thread i'm getting worry .....

[Transporter]

well ... i'm in the market for a 08 GT DSG, after reading this thread i'm getting worry .....

I understand that, it would give me enough reason to get a new car instead. Imagine that you would have to replace the injectors with the wiring and VW wouldn't come to the party? I however believe that if one is either nice and approach the VW with the right arguments or makes a lot of noise, he/she wouldn't pay the full price, (I prefer the nice way, it gets you further). The replacement injectors apparently have 7 years warranty on them.

[harlie]

Mine also smokey under acceleration, but I figure that goes with the territory.
I dont see any reason to panic though. Many kays of 103 TDI happy-motoring ahead.
Harley, I cant tell whether you are happy it's not a warranty issue. If you still consider it a warranty issue and you gave the trader a chance to fix, for 90-odd bucks you can get a no-frills hearing at QCAT.

Thanks yowie - honestly I'm not that concerned about not being covered. I was when I was informed that they are SO unreliable that all 4 must be replaced (that was the statement from Austral). However this whole experience just highlighted the lack of understanding that the dealer franchises have on this problem, and IMO this is a direct fault of VWA not passing on all the facts (because they know!). In essence, the problem with a 103 injector is not only rare but completely different to the failure of a 125 – Greg has touched on this earlier. Unfortunately I now know far more about VW PD systems than I ever wanted to.

The 125 (and 3.0V6 pd engines for that matter) are highly likely to experience another failure due to a flawed design of the piezo crystal structure that controls the nozzle in the original injectors. VW global claim the replacement injectors have this issue sorted. To me (and apparently VWA) that is a warranty issue no matter how old, you will fight on ratio but should win a reasonable portion. When an injector in the 125kw 2.0 (or 3.0V6) fails it shorts out the entire bank of injectors rendering them all completely useless because the signal from the ecu to the nozzle control mechanism is shorted, that’s why the engine will start (on 3) once the faulty injector is physically unplugged from the electrical loom. Until the faulty injector is unplugged the engine is completely dead.

My research tells me that the injectors fitted to the 103 are not only from a different manufacturer but do not even use a piezo crystal to control fuel metering. They have the older solenoid system. Use VAGCOM to clear the faults and it will drive home – well maybe, at least go until the ECU decides there is a problem and shuts it down again – mine went just over 6km after the faults were cleared. Completely different behaviour to the 125 because it’s a completely different problem. Unfortunately since numbers are down no one has independently striped one down so the point of failure is not exactly known.

Back to the warranty argument – VWA are of the opinion that the original design (of 103) is not flawed, they also know that they are not failing in numbers, yeh I know that there are a few mentioned here but do some research, the ratio displayed on this forum is not an accurate reflection – an independent repairer working in Brisbane (hint – he’s mobile), who I now would consider to be the guru of Audi/VW has never seen a 103 fail, he’s lost count of 125s he’s now done. The unfortunate issue is that the Dealer workshops have absolutely no knowledge of the differences and just see a 2.0tdi come in the door and give the same recommendation (replace 4). They honestly were not aware that the two versions of the engine have different injectors. I look at the failure of a 103 injector to be just bloody unlucky, just like an injector failure in a BMW, Merc, Pug, or any other make. Or a premature timing belt failure or any other component.

I’m certain that we would not have a win on a 103 claim in SCC, I’m also sure that the VOSA action in the UK doesn’t cover the 103. I replaced one injector; I’ve paid for it and am moving on. I’m also not the first person to pay in full… I will update the Failure Register with parts prices, for future reference.

For you – you’re right there is absolutely no reason to panic, hell, don’t even think about it. All the 2.0s I see will give a puff but mine was particularly smoky when pushed, it was actually quite bad, nothing like I see with other golf V platforms around. Mike at P & P (serviced for the last 4 years) agreed. I spent quite a bit of time on it with an injection specialist; essentially he tried everything in his arsenal to improve it (and he did improve it). Only strange thing was it took so long between first causing fueling issues (black smoke) and failure. So now that the obviously faulty injector is replaced the engine is in a state that is running significantly cleaner than the average, hence no smoke, really none, not even in the following headlights at night when buried, I’ve owned diesels for 14 years now and none have run this clean. I realise that mine is now not normal (in the other direction) and I expect to see the haze gradually return… Until you notice heaps of black smoke and changes in its starting habit, don’t worry – there are far more Toyota 4x4s (to mention 1) failing than 103PD VWs.

[harlie]

well ... i'm in the market for a 08 GT DSG, after reading this thread i'm getting worry .....

Look for a good 103 - flash tune (130kw) and suspension upgrades and you have the same thing. Add a body kit if you must...

OR go to a GTD, they are CR but hey we all thought PD was the go once... Before someone harps on about PD being internal so the heat bla bla bla - Unit injectors have been used for years by many manufacturers. To my knowledge none have a failure rate anywhere near the Seimens product talked about here.

[stickshift3000]

Unfortunately I now know far more about VW PD systems than I ever wanted to.

Informative post Harlie, thanks for the info.

[jazd]

Great post harlie, well researched.

[Greg Roles]

Awesome post Harlie, thanks for taking the time to put it up. The more knowledge we can gather, the better.

...but to be fair mate, pizeo is new technology really, and putting that part into oil has been the problem. I would expect current pizeo injectors to be better now, as they are outside the oil, and VAG has gone back to Bosch. You can get individual parts for the Bosch injectors, not so for the dodgey Siemens.

Still I agree we shall see.....

[kaanage]

Just as an aside, Siemens owns Bosch and Siemens branded items tend to be higher spec (and priced) - like Audi vs VW

[harlie]

...but to be fair mate, pizeo is new technology, and putting that part into oil has been the problem.

Agreed.


Just as an aside, Siemens owns Bosch and Siemens branded items tend to be higher spec (and priced) - like Audi vs VW

I didn’t know that - do we know if they come from the same facility?

So can we say that they are manufactured by the same parent company (maybe different facility – maybe the same?) But it is still a different part using different technology that fails with a completely different problem.

What did we do before the interweb?

[Greg Roles]

We believed what the dealer tech told us.

[kaanage]

I didn’t know that - do we know if they come from the same facility?
Some items would come out of the same factory (the higher end Bosch dishwashers and washing machines come to mind) while others would be made at separate plants.


So can we say that they are manufactured by the same parent company (maybe different facility – maybe the same?) But it is still a different part using different technology that fails with a completely different problem.

100% correct in this case.

[Transporter]

I’m also not the first person to pay in full… I will update the Failure Register with parts prices, for future reference.

There is also thread for that (when you're out of pocket shortly after the warranty, so you can post there as well. :)

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/forums/f28/vw-diesel-pd-piezo-injector-55269.html

[pongpagong]

i think my contribution to this thread is long overdue.

one of the injectors failed back in Jan 2011. SCC replaced 1 (not all 4) at no cost because still under warranty. Three months later, similar incident happened -car lost power and was towed to SCC. I reckoned it was one of the three original injectors. SCC reckoned it was the turbocharger so it was replaced, again at no cost due to warranty. I requested to both SCC and VWA for the 3 injectors be replaced and argued that the turbocharger failure could be due to fuel mismanagement knowing that one of the injectors is different from the rest. After a month long of going back and forth to VWA and SCC, my request was declined. After another 3 months, 2 weeks after the warranty expired, one of the injectors failed again (according to SCC). Lucky i took the extended warranty (backed by Allianz) so SCC and VWA both agreed to replace the rest of the injectors. I reckon VWA agreed as it would be no cost to them, but Allianz.

Pretty disappointing for a 40K car from VW. As a consolation, i've got a 3 year old VW GT TDI with 4 new injectors and new turbocharger. Also lucky to have escaped from all three near-fatal incidents when the injectors and turbocharger failed.

[adrian112]

Hey Guys,

Over the weekend my injectors failed again (they failed last december for the first time). Driving down Parramatta road on the right hand lane of the road in busy traffic the car loses power and shuts off. Quick reflex and the hazards go straight on. Cars behind me lose it and beep away. Worse thing was it shut down on a hilly incline around croydon so we couldnt push it out of the way!

Got it towed (via my NRMA) to the dealer and after a few days the guys call me and say all injectors need to be replaced, and that VWA will replace them at no cost.

Happy that the Denlo guys were able to sort this out for me but I am defintely looking at exiting Golf ownership ASAP. It really is a shame as I love my car, and my Mother wanted to grab it off me when I upgraded. With this defect however there is no way I am letting a loved one buy it off me, for fear of physical harm to them. Within the next few months I had planned to upgrade the car and grab a Golf GTI/ or R but these drama's have made me think twice about buying VW again.

Again happy with the Denlo tea, and VWA shouldering the cost of the repairs, its the least they could do right!

[gldgti]

Hey Guys,

Over the weekend my injectors failed again (they failed last december for the first time). Driving down Parramatta road on the right hand lane of the road in busy traffic the car loses power and shuts off. Quick reflex and the hazards go straight on. Cars behind me lose it and beep away. Worse thing was it shut down on a hilly incline around croydon so we couldnt push it out of the way!

Got it towed (via my NRMA) to the dealer and after a few days the guys call me and say all injectors need to be replaced, and that VWA will replace them at no cost.

Happy that the Denlo guys were able to sort this out for me but I am defintely looking at exiting Golf ownership ASAP. It really is a shame as I love my car, and my Mother wanted to grab it off me when I upgraded. With this defect however there is no way I am letting a loved one buy it off me, for fear of physical harm to them. Within the next few months I had planned to upgrade the car and grab a Golf GTI/ or R but these drama's have made me think twice about buying VW again.

Again happy with the Denlo tea, and VWA shouldering the cost of the repairs, its the least they could do right!

Sad to hear you're thinking of giving it up but if I were you i'd stick with it.... as long as vw are paying.

[Greg Roles]

He's one of many ex-GT ex-VW guys I know now mate, there will be more, sadly...

[benough]

Hey Guys,

Over the weekend my injectors failed again (they failed last december for the first time). Driving down Parramatta road on the right hand lane of the road in busy traffic the car loses power and shuts off. Quick reflex and the hazards go straight on. Cars behind me lose it and beep away. Worse thing was it shut down on a hilly incline around croydon so we couldnt push it out of the way!

Got it towed (via my NRMA) to the dealer and after a few days the guys call me and say all injectors need to be replaced, and that VWA will replace them at no cost.

Happy that the Denlo guys were able to sort this out for me but I am defintely looking at exiting Golf ownership ASAP. It really is a shame as I love my car, and my Mother wanted to grab it off me when I upgraded. With this defect however there is no way I am letting a loved one buy it off me, for fear of physical harm to them. Within the next few months I had planned to upgrade the car and grab a Golf GTI/ or R but these drama's have made me think twice about buying VW again.

Again happy with the Denlo tea, and VWA shouldering the cost of the repairs, its the least they could do right!

Hey Adrian

It's unfortunate the car failed in a bad spot but I went through a very similar scenario.

For me though, I see that the achillies heel of the car has been exposed and now corrected. For me the uncertainty of that happening is now over and I see it as a reason to keep the car. I must admit I feeling of a minor anxiety in the back of your mind is now gone because of it.

Not too sure how it makes the car a potential harm to your family though.

I hope you do though but you won't go wrong with a GTI or R but you might be disappointed with the quality of the MK6.

[jazd]

Why the hell isn't VW recalling these cars, its getting ridiculous. I'm going to be so pissed off if this happens to me.

[Greg Roles]

You can bet your left nut I'll be making some noise! The issue is about to be aired on UK TV on a watchdog program, will be interesting to see how that goes....

[jazd]

You can bet your left nut I'll be making some noise! The issue is about to be aired on UK TV on a watchdog program, will be interesting to see how that goes....
Really what's the name of the show?

[max55]

Bought my 2008 GT Sport TDI a few months ago and after reading this thread started to get nervous. Friday afternoon of this long weekend was heading up the mountains when the engine died. Luckily I was able to coast off the the side of the road enough not to be sideswiped by B-doubles etc. My car is now tucked up at my local workshop waiting to be diagnosed. Will re-post as the saga unfolds.

[vk]

Bought my 2008 GT Sport TDI a few months ago and after reading this thread started to get nervous. Friday afternoon of this long weekend was heading up the mountains when the engine died. Luckily I was able to coast off the the side of the road enough not to be sideswiped by B-doubles etc. My car is now tucked up at my local workshop waiting to be diagnosed. Will re-post as the saga unfolds.

this worries me as i just got one of these a month ago :(
were there any signs before it happened?

[Greg Roles]

Cars can stutter and misfire prior to failure, but the vast majority of people report it stopping "out of the blue".

Sorry to say it is a possible problem of these cars, but so too we "believe" the cars went to the better Siemens injector mid 2008, that is manufacture date, not delivery. Check the plate in your boot beside the spare, it will tell you when it was made. Sadly mine is Sept 2007.....

[jazd]

The issue is about to be aired on UK TV on a watchdog program, will be interesting to see how that goes....

I saw on the FB page that you were asking people to write in to the BBC. So are they actually going to do an episode on it?


Sadly mine is Sept 2007.....
As is mine

[Greg Roles]

Have no idea, those posts are by the UK moderator on the facebook page, I was just asked to contribute...

[jazd]

Have no idea, those posts are by the UK moderator on the facebook page, I was just asked to contribute...
Ak ok, no worries.

[ouchgtsport]

Another bites the dust...

Hi all my 2008 GT Sport shut down over the weekend and was towed to the dealer yesterday. The dealer called me today to say all injectors need replacing. They said they would contact VW Australia to see if there was some sort of part payment they would agree to.

The car came out of warranty Jan 2011, has 55k, has full service history with VW and I am the second owner having bought the car in Jan 2011.

I saw through the thread that someone had a Passat covered out of warranty and was second owner with no cost to them by an Adelaide dealership.

I just wanted to gauge how many people may have had similar predicament to mine so I can battle them if they try only to meet a portion of the cost.

Many thanks everyone this forum has been a huge help.

Dave C

[vk]

Cars can stutter and misfire prior to failure, but the vast majority of people report it stopping "out of the blue".

Sorry to say it is a possible problem of these cars, but so too we "believe" the cars went to the better Siemens injector mid 2008, that is manufacture date, not delivery. Check the plate in your boot beside the spare, it will tell you when it was made. Sadly mine is Sept 2007.....

how does this look:
http://itsvic.org/ss/20111004102827166.png

[ouchgtsport]

Received the call today. All 4 injectors will be replaced and wire loom some 8+ months out of warranty at no cost. There was no fight needed. I am happy with the outcome.

I will input my details in the register once I have the car and paperwork.

Dave

[benough]

8 months! Wow, you're very lucky unless VWA have changed their minds.

[Greg Roles]

I think perhaps they see the fight coming from the UK, and have been forced to start doing the right thing. VOSA UK is starting to talk to their counterparts in other countries, and I have been told Australia is on the list.

[hooba]

Related?

Stop-sale issued for Volkswagen Jetta and Golf TDI diesel models, recall imminent? (http://www.autoblog.com/2011/10/05/stop-sale-issued-for-volkswagen-jetta-and-golf-tdi-diesel-models/)

[kaanage]

Not at all - that's the newer CR engine.
Good pickup, though - I hadn't seen that before. Only the other CR issue with the HPFP shredding itself.

[Greg Roles]

Great find. The power of the USA watchdogs.

Imagine if the USA had the MKV PD injector issue, it would be a definate recall, instead of turning a blind eye.

[Greg Roles]

how does this look:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/

Can't be 100% sure, but from what I know you *should* have the uprated oil seal on the injectors.

Be real nice if VW at LEAST gave us some information as no doubt they know....

[max55]

Following my post of 03-10-2011 and just to confirm, there was no warning prior to the engine cutting out. My local workshop suggested that I'd be best taking it to a VW dealer in the likely event that it was the injectors. So I had it towed to Penrith Volkswagen. I collected it today. Four injectors and harness replaced no charge without question, on a goodwill basis as it was at least 6 months out of warranty. Thanks VWA and thank you to this forum for moral support.

[haro]

Well I guess my father got a good run with his VW T5 Transporter (2.5L TDI) - its got over 400K on the clock as its a Maxi taxi here in Brissy.
One of his injectors failed on the freeway yesterday, he was able to limp the vehicle to the mechanic and they got a price of about $800 for a single injector!!! Price does not include diagnosis, install etc.

Painful stuff indeed & I feel sorry for my old man. Obviously no warranty on this one left. :facepalm:

At least he was able to save some money on his replacement turbo we recently got hehehe *fishing*

[benough]

400K though. That's a badge of honour.

I want 300K out of mine :)

[kaanage]

he was able to limp the vehicle to the mechanic

It must be a different injector/loom/ecu (not surprising given the difference in size/power/etc) since the failures discussed here kill the engine stone dead.

[davidno64]

Well now at 60,000 plus Km's, I have not had any more starting issues. But I did have what I thought was a bettery issue.
Vw could not fault it, so I replace it (the battery) and all Ok. But they had also changed the MAF loom to adress some issues.
Still remaining unresolved was an intermitant loss of power, seldom occours but potentially dangerous in traffic.

NOW, recently I copped a red light camera. Why, the bloody cars got worse intermitant and more frequent, also sometimes
very severe power loss. I got caught mid intersection with no power and stationary. Then delayed, the revs rose and the car
was drivable again. Normally after acelertion, then braking. Either I get a delayed throttle reponse or no throttle response
at all. Sometimes when taking certain roundabouts, either a delayed throttle response or no throttle response at all.

Took it to VW, they had if for 3 days and could only partly replicate the fault and only under the driving conditions
I reported to them. No fault codes, no total power loss. But certainly a part power loss/ delayed throttle response.
Picked up the car, partly repaired. They had found an air leak on the EGR and recitifyed it. It does seem a bit better.
The car gets returned to VW in a few days again to further diagnose the fault. As they can not identify the cause and
have not complitly fixed the issues.

I suspect this is an injection problem. Weather it be a physical issue the the injectors themselfs or the control to
them, an interupted signal. Anyway when I have an answer, I will post any updates but has anyone else had simlar
Power loss/Power delivery issues (specifically relating to the injectors).

[Transporter]

Well now at 60,000 plus Km's, I have not had any more starting issues. But I did have what I thought was a bettery issue.
Vw could not fault it, so I replace it (the battery) and all Ok. But they had also changed the MAF loom to adress some issues.
Still remaining unresolved was an intermitant loss of power, seldom occours but potentially dangerous in traffic.

NOW, recently I copped a red light camera. Why, the bloody cars got worse intermitant and more frequent, also sometimes
very severe power loss. I got caught mid intersection with no power and stationary. Then delayed, the revs rose and the car
was drivable again. Normally after acelertion, then braking. Either I get a delayed throttle reponse or no throttle response
at all. Sometimes when taking certain roundabouts, either a delayed throttle response or no throttle response at all.

Took it to VW, they had if for 3 days and could only partly replicate the fault and only under the driving conditions
I reported to them. No fault codes, no total power loss. But certainly a part power loss/ delayed throttle response.
Picked up the car, partly repaired. They had found an air leak on the EGR and recitifyed it. It does seem a bit better.
The car gets returned to VW in a few days again to further diagnose the fault. As they can not identify the cause and
have not complitly fixed the issues.

I suspect this is an injection problem. Weather it be a physical issue the the injectors themselfs or the control to
them, an interupted signal. Anyway when I have an answer, I will post any updates but has anyone else had simlar
Power loss/Power delivery issues (specifically relating to the injectors).

Just out of curiosity, what car is it, what year and is it a nanual or DSG?

[davidno64]

2008 Mk5 Golf GT TDI with DSG (Fortunatly, still under warrantie)

[MADHUN]

I'm having an issue with the PD Injectors on my Nov '05 build '06 plated DSG Golf, but I think it is isolated to the loom. I'll try to remember to come back here and update everyone, but since I've just clicked over the 235000 I'm not too dismayed with the outcome.

So far I have replaced

Thermo Fans
EGR Valve
EGR Cooler Valve

Other than consumables I would have to say I've had a pretty good run; it certainly wouldn't stop me from purchasing another.

[MADHUN]

As suspected it's a new loom; oil leaking through the injector plug seals. Might be time to whack the piggyback back in if that resolves the issue.

[davidno64]

Got my car back today. YAHOO!!!:banana:
Funny how you miss you own car and cannot beat the delivery power of a good TDI.
I had a loaner 1.4 TSI Mk6. Good car but certainly not a 2.0 TDI GT Mk5.

This probly should be in another thread, :emo_baghead:

Anyway, seems like it was not the injectors after all. Quite happy with what VW (Burwood)
had done. So far, so good, the car is driving well and power seems to be constant. My problem
was air leaks and not an injector issue at all. In fact I was told, when the injectors fail (at least
in referance to , issues in this thread). They fail, dead on the spot. Usally one that will take the
whole lot out (Computer shuts down). No warning?, no intermitant operation.

I had 2 air leaks. At the EGR, where the pipe wraps around from the back of the engine and meets
the EGR. Failed at the gasket, where the pipe meets EGR valve. This time they replaced the gasket.
That should have been done first time.
Any way the second leak was where the rocker fumes vent to the inlet. I had already fitted a
PROVENT, at that paticular point and using VW's fittings to this part, was a right angle elbow
(part of the feed back pipe). This had craked but not complitly through.:facepalm:
Now, the locking ring had totally fallen away. Allowing the fitting to work loose and hence a
second air leak. (possibly my fault).

Vw fixed this all under warrentie, including replacing the engine cover grommits and the bonnet underlay.
As they were both failing, with age? My hat off to VW, they were thorough and covered all work,
They could have denied part of the warrentie work, but didn't.

[transporterq]

Thought that since I had a 2007 Passat TDI, with the 103 KW motor I would be safe from adding to this threat, but alas no. Final day of our holidays, 20 KM’s out of Geelong on the Ballarat road, cruising at 100 KM’s, engine management light comes on, then the engine dies, thankfully still have brakes and steering. Being with the RAA in SA, can ring the RACV for a tow, no problems, explain my location from the GPS. Phoned a VW dealer in SA for help in locating VW dealer in Geelong, promised a phone call back with the info, still waiting for that call back. Phoned my daughter to Google it, had a dealership in minutes. Tow truck arrives, advised that I need the car to be towed to Rex Gorell which I had already phoned to advise what has happened to my Passat. An hour after we arrived, the bad news, injectors and wiring loom need to be replaced, $3500. No worries he goes to me, VW expense, but need to order the parts from Sydney. RAA puts us up in a hotel for 2 days and we walked all of the CBD of Geelong till the Passat was ready. The only strange thing with the car leading up to the failure was that the cruise control was not holding the cat spot on, it varied the speed by around 5 KM’s. Since getting the Passat back it does not seem to have such a rough idle on slow speed anymore.

Baby waiting to be fixed,

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2011/11/14112011-1.jpg

One of the interesting things I picked up while waiting for the Passat to be fixed, just about made it worth while,

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2011/11/15112011-1.jpg

[jazd]

You are a very lucky man in that
a) VW paid for it all on the spot to mucking around
b) They had the parts available in Sydney

[Razza123]

Two days ago I was driving from Walcha NSW back towards Port Macquarie when my recently purchased (second hand ) Passat 125 kw engine suddenly lost power, stopped and the dash warning "Engine Failure " came on . The injector symbol was flashing and a red battery symbol also showed. Brakes and steering still functioned. Although travelling at a little over 110Kms p/h there was no other traffic and I was able to find a safe place to stop. NRMA tow to Walcha depot where they assessed injector problem and they negotiated with the NRMA for me a flat bed bed truck carry to VW dealer at Port Macquarie ( about 200 kms away) thanks to NRMA Premium Care package .Without this the car would have been taken to a Tamworth dealer in the opposite direction to home base.

The car has only done 67,000 kms and was bought second hand after trading in a diesel Benz ( very reliable with over 328,000 Kms on the clock but getting very difficult to get parts -and no injector problems). I puchased the diesal Passat because of the so called reliabilty of diesel engines but I was not aware of the numerous injector failures.
The car in now at the local VW dealer John Oxley Motors to be examined. Repairs with be at the cost of the dealer I purchased from with the 5000 KM / 3 month cover .
A minor point FUEL . I was warned with the diesel Bnez not to use cheap diesel fuel but to stick with well known brands. My brother had numerous injector failures whenever he used "No Name diesel". I didnt think about this fuel aspect with the passat but in most other european diesels there is a subtle warning not to go cheap. Stick with the major fuel companies and avoid cheap asian fuel. Perhaps there is an issue with some fuels ?
Thanks to this thread concerning the injector issues I shall be contacting immediately to make sure any injector replacement is not a reconditioned older Piezo type 1. I am hoping the dealer is able to approach VW aus as happened to other 125km passats.
Its really a situation that if VW agree to replace all with the updated kit then I shall keep the car. If not the car will be sold as soon as its back on the road. I travel long distances with work and I dont need the potential for further injector problems. The Passat's a good car but with any future uncertainity its has to go and I shall look for something more reliable. I guess if I had seen this thread before I may have not purchased. I agree with previous posts here , deisel engined vehicles have established a good reputation for reliability and as with the diesel benz are fuel efficient so I expected run maybe 150,000 without too much trouble. Maybe VW did rush introduction of this injector system?

[Greg Roles]

Please also check the facebook page "Fix the pd170 siemens injector failure (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fix-the-VW-AUDI-Skoda-Seat-Pd170-TDI-Injector-Failure/156033921135623)". On there is a letter from VOSA in the UK forcing the replacement of faulty injectors and basically recognising it as a legitimate problem. Australian agencies are useless, thus the need to push the issue with UK recognition here. In your shoes, with a stock car, I'd be making one hell of a fuss. Squeaky wheel and all that....

[Razza123]

Please also check the facebook page "Fix the pd170 siemens injector failure (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fix-the-VW-AUDI-Skoda-Seat-Pd170-TDI-Injector-Failure/156033921135623)". On there is a letter from VOSA in the UK forcing the replacement of faulty injectors and basically recognising it as a legitimate problem. Australian agencies are useless, thus the need to push the issue with UK recognition here. In your shoes, with a stock car, I'd be making one hell of a fuss. Squeaky wheel and all that....

Thank you Greg . I shall check it .

Yes the wheel is going to be very squeaky . I shall post the outcome.

[Lindsay]

People are posting that they have recalled vehicles affected...


Please also check the facebook page "Fix the pd170 siemens injector failure (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Fix-the-VW-AUDI-Skoda-Seat-Pd170-TDI-Injector-Failure/156033921135623)". On there is a letter from VOSA in the UK forcing the replacement of faulty injectors and basically recognising it as a legitimate problem. Australian agencies are useless, thus the need to push the issue with UK recognition here. In your shoes, with a stock car, I'd be making one hell of a fuss. Squeaky wheel and all that....

[Greg Roles]

...in the UK because their government watchdog VOSA forced the VAG group to do so.

VOSA obviously has teeth, unlike the inept agency here, I was chatting with a guy who's daughter nearly died when the car stopped at speed, and he is still lobbying the government, but thus far it's falling on deaf ears. I just hope it doesn't take someone getting hurt...

Best of luck!

[Lindsay]

Yeah I never thought about the danger side of it! Mine cut out late one night in the middle of nowhere. Luckily, I had one bar of reception (thanks Telstra NextG) to call RACT otherwise I would have been in for a nice long walk in the dark...

[stickshift3000]

Yeah I never thought about the danger side of it! Mine cut out late one night in the middle of nowhere. Luckily, I had one bar of reception (thanks Telstra NextG) to call RACT otherwise I would have been in for a nice long walk in the dark...

That is an unsafe activity in Tassie, never know who's lurking around.

[Lindsay]

Haha. Yes you do have to keep an eye out for the inbred deviants in the bush

[gldgti]

Possums, heaps of 'em.

Razza123 - I'm sure if you have your passat fixed with the updated injectors you'll love it for many years to come - especially if you take it up the oxley highway now and then :-)

[Razza123]

Possums, heaps of 'em.

Razza123 - I'm sure if you have your passat fixed with the updated injectors you'll love it for many years to come - especially if you take it up the oxley highway now and then :-)

Yes thank you . Only a short time driver of the Passat but I am impressed with it. VW Aus tell me there is a replacement policy for the injectors depending on VIN number of the vehicle and a fuel test to make sure no E10 Diesel was used . Interesting point for owners and future buyers --- using E19 diesel fuel voids warranties. I dont use this type of fuel anyway but its a warning for anyone who might be tempted to use the cheaper fuel . VW tell me they insist the dealer does a fuel test from the tank in the vehicle and must confirm to VW Aus that no E10 is present.
I think this would apply to many of the VW diesel range ????

The dealer has not yet looked at the vehicle which is a little disappointing.

And yes the Oxley highway is a drivers road . The long run up the mountains tests any car and you are rewarded when you get to the long straights further on. I counted over 70 corners of 55 kms per hour or less ( most are 35 km ) and many of these can test just how far the front wheel drive tramps sideways on the rougher ones. Much more pronounced than rear wheel drive. I get through there as easily in the Passat as with previously owned benz or bmw models as long as one is aware the front wheels will tend to sometimes skip sideways just to keep one ones interest. I think the vw diesel tends to respond with power quicker with very little turbo lag but also gulps fuel quicker too. Its about 0.7 litres per 100 kms more fuel used than my previous benz for that run. Not suggesting unsafe driving though at all. Oh the woes of work travel lol.

[kaanage]

I thought Exx signified petrol with xx% ethanol added and it was Bxx that was normal diesel with xx% biodiesel added.

[Lindsay]

The dealer has not yet looked at the vehicle which is a little disappointing.

Mine has been at the dealer two weeks now... I've forgotten what she looks like

[Razza123]

Yes you may be correct Kaanage . I did mean diesel with the bio additive which is the Bxx% and not E as I mentioned . Thanks for the correction.

Two weeks wait --Heck I need my car back asp . Heaps of work running to do before xmas .

[Lindsay]

Yeah it was probably my own fault. I told the dealer to take all the time they needed as I have another car. But I am growing rather tired of driving around in the 1970's... :facepalm:

[Razza123]

The injectors , loom and timing belt have been repaired by the dealer at VW Aus expense. Havent seen the invoice yet but I have been assured by the dealer the updated injectors were used.

Interesting point: the dealer showed me a sample of diesel fuel from the cars tank and it was virtually black with what looked like floating muck while a similar sample of good fuel was clean. They drained the tank and replaced with clean fuel. I had used four or five tanks of so called fuel from Aussie's largest shopping chain local outlet. They tested for Bio additives as requested by VW but found none. It appears a large percentage of the cars with injector problems locally also had dirty fuel.

As I mentioned before I have friends who had numerous diesel injector problems in mercedes cars and vans using cheap fuel but previously ( for over 5 years) I always used fuel from the red and yellow retail store outlets and never had a problem. Only recently I swapped to the other large W one. Bad fuel may not be the main cause of injector failure but perhaps its a factor.

One more thing: Thanks to this forum for the info on the injectors and failure rate. It was a huge help to have everyones input when talking to VW Aus and the dealer.

[Lindsay]

Glad to hear you've got your car back! Mine is STILL at the dealer. It has now been three weeks...

[Greg Roles]

Interesting info, and I have to admit I'm amazed VW footed the bill if you had contaminated fuel. Makes me think there really is a quiet recall going on, but Lindsay suggests otherwise.....

I have never considered anything but BP or Caltex Vortex, and have driven 40kms on empty ( 0 range left ) past Woolies and other servos out west to get to one of the above. I'd walk before I'd put that stuff through my car, you get what you pay for. Even draining the tank that low and getting into the sediment scares me less. A bug in a diesel tank is a nightmare.

[gldgti]

Yep, can't stress it enough - you must use high quality fuel, wherever you can get it from.