Legality of DPF delete

[kaanage]

Looking at the ADR 80/03 summary (http://www.ntc.gov.au/filemedia/bulletins/ADR80facts.pdf), it seems that Euro 5 specifications will only be applied to new models as of 1st Jan 2010 and then to all models as of 1st Jan 2011.

This implies that a DPF delete on any model released before 1st Jan 2010 and bought before 1st Jan 2011 would be entirely legal, as long as the catalytic converter was retained.

Is there a flaw in my reasoning?

[hazrd]

From what you have said there mate (for some reason my PC aint opening PDFs :mad: ) it sounds like its perfectly legal to perform a DPF delete on your model

I would maybe see if you can speak with an EPA rep or something and see if they can give you a reference to confirm (that is assuming the above PDF wasnt sourced from someone with the EPA)

[Guy_H]

My Understanding is that if it was supplied from the factory, you can not remove it, as you are altering the original emission's system.

There has been lobbying (to no avail) from the Bio Diesel quarter to get an exemption & be able to remove the DPF & keep the cat so you can run their fuel.

Not helping the Bio Diesel people at all.

The fine was $12000 for a business & $10,000 for an individual if caught. Not sure what it is now.

[kaanage]

Hmmmm.

I can see how it could be interpreted in that way under this regulation (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/eper2003563/s21.html) but then ANY engine performance modification could be pinged in the same manner under this other regulation (http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_reg/eper2003563/s20.html) (in Victoria anyway).

Maybe it's one of these stupid state by state cases for enforcement :facepalm:

[nutttr]

There's a slight flaw in the logic. Diesels are required to have a cat converter from about 2008 or so - But the rule states that if it came from the factory with one, you can't remove it. Although it's going to be a lot harder to tell than a petrol one. I intend on getting a downpipe and these don't come with cats. The issue with your idea is that I believe the cat and DPF are one piece, aren't they? Or is the DPF a replacement for a cat? I don't remember to be honest.

I have a 2005 diesel so I have no DPF and I intend on getting a downpipe without a cat. Legality of it is an issue....

[Greg Roles]

The Cat is the first part of the DPF inside the one cannister, so removing your DPF removes the factory cat. At the moment it is becomming law is a growing number of US States to retrofit a cat to all registered diesels, and no doubt one day that will be the case here as well.

I agree with Guy, remove your DPF for the benefit, and you have to run the gauntlet with the law. Crazy really on an already economical car that is even MORE economical with the delete.

[benough]

but is fuel consumption for the EPA Greg? I imagine it's more about emissions for them. Surely a DPF delete puts out a lot more particles.

[Russ59]

The legality has been the same for years with anything fitted to a vehicle to reduce emissions. Back in the 70's even when just about every man and his dog blocked hoses with the old ball bearings to try and lean the mixture out. As others have said if you remove or modify any part of the emissions system which was factory fitted (especially on newer vehicles) and you intend to drive the vehicle on a daily basis sooner or later you will be found out. You might be able to get away with it for the first few years of ownership (from new) whilst it is not compulsory to have to undergo an annual registration inspection, but once that period passes good luck, because the fines are pretty hefty I believe :(

[Greg Roles]

but is fuel consumption for the EPA Greg? I imagine it's more about emissions for them. Surely a DPF delete puts out a lot more particles.

It puts out a lot more big particles you can see, all a DPF does is make them microscopic, and there is yet another report out at the moment postulating that this is actually MORE dangerous to our health; you just cough up the soot, whereas the tiny soot particles enter the bloodstream directly. But hey, you can't see it......time will tell if it's actually a good thing! I'm keeping my eye on the research!

Seems overall emissions outside particulates would drop with reduced fuel use in my opinion, but would probably even out as you'd be up it more. But yeah, all theory, and the EPA don't measure anything outside particulates for diesels.

[kaanage]

The Cat is the first part of the DPF inside the one cannister, so removing your DPF removes the factory cat.

I was wondering if it was possible to cut the back of the cannister open and remove the DPF while leaving the cat intact at the front and then replace the cannister. That would be my intention once mine clogs rather than a downpipe.
It wouldn't hurt to try IMO since the cannister is unusable at this point anyway.

[Greg Roles]

Not a chance I'm afraid. I have Ryan01's old blocked DPF, and have cut it open. There is absolutely no way to pick the cat part and the filter part, it all looks like black sooty pumice stone. Only in the manual I have does it mention the fore part being the cat, and the rear 2/3 being the DPF per say. The whole DPF system relies on two pressure sensors before and one after the DPF, mess with the cannister, knock a hole in it, pull some out, and it's going to get incorrect pressure readings, go into limp at best, shutdown at worst, and spend the entire time trying to regen itself. When it regens it allows fuel to ignite into the cannister itself, and in people in the UK that have tried a delete pipe without a Custom Code tune ( the only one that currently works ) have all sorts of problems every regen, to my knowledge everyone on the Seat Cupra forums I have followed have either gone with the CCode tune or put their DPF back on.

You only have two options - a new DPF, or the delete from Gav. I'd chat to Transporter who once mentioned a source for much cheaper O/S DPF's, as it's a $4k proposition here, the delete is going to be half that by the by.

Crappy situation to be in, but I'm expecting a lot more DPF delimma's in coming years as people enter the 100k plus range and they clog up for good. Shame this is all hush hush from VW and all the other diesel manufacturers at time of purchase, something I aim to change. I'd still buy a diesel, but it's a timebomb for short, city drivers that never get it hot, nor run a catch can etc to extend it's life.

[Greg Roles]

There's a slight flaw in the logic. Diesels are required to have a cat converter from about 2008 or so - But the rule states that if it came from the factory with one, you can't remove it. Although it's going to be a lot harder to tell than a petrol one. I intend on getting a downpipe and these don't come with cats. The issue with your idea is that I believe the cat and DPF are one piece, aren't they? Or is the DPF a replacement for a cat? I don't remember to be honest.

I have a 2005 diesel so I have no DPF and I intend on getting a downpipe without a cat. Legality of it is an issue....

It would be easy to add a performance cat to a dump pipe, just require a bit of welding, and I expect any exhaust shop could help you.

[kaanage]

For !@#%$@#%#%^% sake!! :facepalm: What moron designed this component??:cookie:
No wonder it costs a fortune to replace since the cat portion contains some pretty expensive metals.

From looking at the Skoda DPF document (http://new.skoda-auto.com/Documents/EnvironmentTechDev/EnvironmentTechDevDPF.pdf), I'd thought that you could distinguish the separate components fairly easily :mad:.

Well, I'll be looking to do a DPF delete (with a working remap like CustomCode) and source a Mk5 PD cat to replace cannister to try and comply with the emissions that my car legally has to comply with.

[stormshark]

From experience, i can say two things.1) DPf delete will generate noticeably diesel smells, particles etc all the time , smoke puffs at sometimes
2)Be very careful about doing it both from EPA and functionality etc.From my albeit brief experience, whilst the power gains are noticeably there, the Delete may not be perfected, sensors are a problem,limp mode etc and therefore i would recommend waiting or an installer/solution that can "GUARANTEE" compatibilty and no issues!:mad:

[Greg Roles]

Custom Code seems to have a guaranteed solution, about 50 cars now in the UK, and very very few problems. To be fair Storm, you did get led on by another company, and to my knowledge NO OTHER company outside CCode has a proven tune at this stage. Your tune wasn't meant to work with an actual DPF delete pipe, so I'd suspect the fueling was out as well.

[stormshark]

Custom Code seems to have a guaranteed solution, about 50 cars now in the UK, and very very few problems. To be fair Storm, you did get led on by another company, and to my knowledge NO OTHER company outside CCode has a proven tune at this stage. Your tune wasn't meant to work with an actual DPF delete pipe, so I'd suspect the fueling was out as well.

Possibly a fair comment Greg, i wasn't implying that there was no claimed solution, just for people to be very careful,it was a costly frustrating exercise, and whilst i am grateful to Gav for his offer of help etc, i'm just over it for a while.Just thought i'd share my experience if anyone not giving it the sort of required deliberation/consideration that i obviously didn't, before jumping in.

[gldgti]

If we wait long enough, maybe eventually they'll make an emissions exemption for us dieselers. Worked for the golf 1 diesel in california 30 years ago...

Needless to say, all this talk is more than enough incentive for me to keep my 16 year old diesel running.

[Guy_H]

My engineer was here today certifying a stage 3 kit & I asked the question.

Definitely, 100% illegal in all states, no way to engineer around "removal" and the fine varies from $8,000 to $25,000.

Bummer

[mikinoz]

Just a semantic point here. If I do remove the DPF and have the car engineered and it passes, then I register it with those engineers papers, surely it cannot be the fault of the owner to cop the fine?

I say this as some of the engineers about the place are pretty loose on some things...

[kaanage]

no way to engineer around "removal"

But what about "replacement" with a cat without a DPF? If it allowed the car to meet all Euro 5 emissions specs EXCEPT for the 0.05 micron particulate requirement which models RELEASED before Jan 31 2010 and BOUGHT before jan 31 2011 do NOT have to comply with, then how is that illegal for a car like a 103kW CR Golf TDi?

The GTD wouldn't meet the release date criteria so there's no way around the DPF requirement for those

[Russ59]

No matter what way you look at it is a simple open and shut case that under present legislation, no part of the factory fitted emissions system can be legally removed. If you, or whoever carries out the work for you, does tamper with the system and you get caught then you'll have to be prepared to suffer the consequences (ie a hefty fine or in some cases imprisonment) Without starting a political debate IMHO, whether or not the modification or removal of any component may improve the way the vehicle runs or be better for the environment makes no difference unless Peter Garrett says so and seeing as he is no longer the Minister for the Environment there may be a chance in the future for us to " Move Forward " as soon as they work out how to get out of reverse :duh: :biggrinjester:

[kaanage]

Can you please point me to the relevant clauses in the legislation relating specifically to the emission systems? The clauses I found in the Victorian regulations on EPA compliance seemed to indicate that ANY engine modifications would be ruled as breaking the law.

Yes, there was a separate clause for the emissions systems there but the other clause stated unequivocally that

A person must not, without just cause, alter, replace or modify the engine or
the exhaust system or fuel system of any motor vehicle in a way that-

(a) departs from the manufacturer's design; or

(b) increases the rate of discharge of any of the constituent parts of the
emissions or (where applicable) defeats the intended upward discharge
or dispersion of the emissions.


This should make it just as illegal to change your air filter, fuel filter or muffler type.

Or is it that the EPA are more likely to enforce the emissions system clause?

[Russ59]

It is actually illegal, in NSW at least, to run a pod styled air filter which basically replaces the air box. Most of these installs involve removing the airbox and thus disconnecting some of the emission components going to it. A lot of people as you probably would know, hide the pod filter in the airbox to avoid detection but unfortunately it is still an illegal modification. I'm not saying that I agree with not allowing modifications to be done, it's just that there are strict rules for some things and a blind eye turned to others, this doesn't just apply to engine modifications it's a part of life. :)