Not happy

[dougie]

Filled up one of the new Caddy 1.9 TDI vans yesterday only to find that the fuel had a 20% bio content.The pump had no indication at all about this.
VW have advised to drain the fuel and flush the system,so I have grounded the thing.
The company has offered compensation but I will believe it when I see it.
We took some photos just in case they deny it.
I nearly melted their phone I was so angry.:mad:
It seems that VW haven't tested Australian bio deisel so don't approve of it's use.
I can't believe that a company could be so stupid as to do this by accident,so assume that it is unmarked on purpose.
God knows how many have been caught and don't know.
Very pi$$ed off.

[BlackVr6ix]

A***holes, should be marked just like ethanol.

[dougie]

I have a pretty good relationship with my MP, so will start stirring some sh#t tomorrow.Ask some awkward questions etc.
Pays to suck up sometimes ,just for times like this.:rolleyes:

[peter_j_g]

Shouldn't be a problem - biodiesel is widely used here. Mostly problems occur when an older/high km car which has been run exclusively on normal diesel is filled with biodiesel. The biodiesel will clean out all the gunk that has collected in the fuel tank and lines and block the fuel filter. As your car is quite new then keep on driving it - assuming the biodiesel is of good quality.

VW are just covering themselves - there are plenty of people making biodiesel of various qualities at home. Does the biodiesel you've got been tested to meet any standards?

I agree the pump should have been marked so you know what you are getting.

[Altered Sprinter]

Dougie
Providing the fuel is from BP or Shell you have no real problems the Bio mix is to Australian standards as to euro v fuel watch mandates.
Most of Germany in the main stream now runs B20 as standard Diesel fuels.
As it is an ethanol base fuel, this fuel will have a negative impact on your engine and do less damage,than standard Diesel ULSD, VW should have an Australian rating on ULSD Diesel fuels sold in Australia.
The seller should have had a pump warning as this fuel can damage older Diesel engines with long term use in some engines
But how did you know you put Bio fuel in it?
Richard

[dougie]

I will ask them what standard the fuel is tested to.
I thought it strange that there was a mention about it being renewable fuel?
On the other side of the pump ,in very small letters ,on a sort of advertising swinging thing it said 20% bio mix.Nothing on the side I used except the name of the fuel, and the bit about renewable.Not having had a diesel for many years I assumed deisel was diesel.
These vans are a huge investment in the future for our small family company, so if I seem paranoid, I hope you will understand.
What do you guys use???

[brackie]

The B20 wouldn't have done any damage imho. The engine and fuel system are new and haven't had time to accumulate any gunk, fungus etc so it won't have any deleterious effects. The only way that VWA could get at you would be to argue the standard of Oz biodiesel which I believe is as good as anywhere else. Yeah.. I would be p*ssed off too, but I'm probably more p*ssed off at VW for not recommending its use in PD engines.

[Seano]

It's a bummer it wasn't labeled and the supplier should be well thumped on the knuckles for it

BUT

I use this stuff http://www.farmersfuel.com.au/PremiumDiesel.html when I can as I've found that my 2.5TDI (2001 build) loves it. And it can have up to 20% BD in the mix.

The upshot is that it is probably quite fine to use the fuel you have as it should comply with the Oz standard (like the Farmers Fuel). If not then it would be a very good idea to ditch it..........otherwise give it a burn.

But yeah........nail the supplier.

[dougie]

:) Thanks Guys,
I spoke to the supplier yesterday and they are being fairley helpful.
They say that the fuel is to the oz standard and can provide a certificate to prove it.
They supply 700.000 ltrs a month and are going to VW to see if we can avoid having to pump it out and flushing the system.
Some compensation is on the way but only for the cost of the fuel so far.
We will see.

[phaeton]

Good to hear :)

[DutchAussie]

:) Thanks Guys,
I spoke to the supplier yesterday and they are being fairley helpful.
They say that the fuel is to the oz standard and can provide a certificate to prove it.
They supply 700.000 ltrs a month and are going to VW to see if we can avoid having to pump it out and flushing the system.
Some compensation is on the way but only for the cost of the fuel so far.
We will see.

To put your mind at rest, I bought a new 2007 model VW Caddy in October last year and have so far done 5700 KM. 74% all the fuel ever put in the van has been Biodiesel. I have been running on 100% Biodiesel for 4 months!

I know there is a sticker "Not for Biodiesel" on the fuel filler cover but it is my van!
The engine is ticking over like a charm.

If you want more information go to my Home Site, I will give frequent updates on my experience with Biodiesel.

Regards,

Arie

[DutchAussie]

:) Thanks Guys,
I spoke to the supplier yesterday and they are being fairley helpful.
They say that the fuel is to the oz standard and can provide a certificate to prove it.
They supply 700.000 ltrs a month and are going to VW to see if we can avoid having to pump it out and flushing the system.
Some compensation is on the way but only for the cost of the fuel so far.
We will see.
Have a look at this site for more information on Biodiesel.

http://www.farmersfuel.com.au/Biodiesel.html

Regards,

Arie

[phaeton]

Thats way cool Arie ;) a BioDiesel Caddy in SA :cool:

[flightlessbird]

We have had a few in the shop that smell like Maccas, makes you want to go to the drive thru for a quick snack

[gldgti]

from the sounds of it, this issue has basically been resolved - let me reassure you - you wont have any problems using biodiesel, but because of retailers like Volume Plus selling bio-blends that are low quality, VWA wont (for the moment) say that you are "biodiesel safe".

only when our pollies get their butts into gear and make sure there is strict adherence to the standards will we see VWA take off that sticker.

[DutchAussie]

We have had a few in the shop that smell like
Maccas, makes you want to go to the drive thru for a quick snack

Having worked in Refineries for over 40 years, I don't like the smell of Diesel.

The Diesel we made in Adelaide Refinery smelled OK because of the way it was processed. The Diesel we buy in SA now stinks as it comes from interstate refineries who use different processes. I don't like to get it on my hands.

However I drive past the service stations nowadays with a big smile on my face. Biodiesel is the fuel for me. A lot more work but it feels and smells good.

Regards,

Arie

[Altered Sprinter]

Australia is only one year behind on Euro standard Diesel
VW will not certify Bio Diesel fuels until we match the euro blend of 15 pp/m currently Australian Diesel for ULSD is 50/ppm Shell and BP have the top end of Diesel fuels , it has a low Oder smell similar to low oder turps
Mobil Caltex and Liberty discounters direct import Diesel fuel from Singapore, this fuel has no additives and has a very high Kero like smell the fumes are quite obnoxious.
Imported fuels that have very little reprocessing in Australian refineries are to be considered LSD rated with a very high sulfur content, in fact they should not be sold in Australia as to not meting our official fuel ratings,
I'm not sure if this has slipped by without any one noticing:? or it's an issue between Commonwealth and State governments as to regulating the quality of the said Fuel:?
I was under the impression both WA and S Australia had the higher mandates for quality fuels admittedly it's a voluntary request for refiners or suppliers to comply to.
Looking at the site a few links up with Bio-Diesel, it will not comply to current standards as the site states 2001 2003 Australian fuel standards,they have changed since then January 2006 from LSD to ULSD Diesel.
Note: Australian sulfur content of ULSD is set at 300/p/pm not to exceed 500 p/pm same as the States Australia imports six types of cheap oils most of which has a very high Sulfur content , this is the negotiable smell you would pick up on especially if you sniff the back end of a Ford Transit V a Mercedes Sprinter, two different exhausts , smoke coming from the rear of a VW running Diesel is a clear indicator the fuel is not to specifications of Euro IV mandates.

Aire the Bio mix was in fact most likely better than standard Diesel in both LSD and ULSD it wont kill you caddy as they run on B20 in Europe as to this now being the standard fuel.
Look in your manual for fuel as I have not a manual to this model, it should say B5 for Bio fuels Ethanol based only [But it doesn't say this] also this depends on which engine you have and exhaust system it's either the old Euro 3 standard muffler or you have a particulate exhaust system that regenerates itself every 2 thousand click's this system is now standard for July models 2006 in Europe Australia August I think for Euro IV specs.
Diesel depending on when it's imported is either a winter Diesel or a summer diesel the Winter Diesel is refereed to as B1 it has a higher mix of kerosene , this can also give a higher unpleasant aromatic from the exhaust fumes.
Australian refinery's each spent over 300 to 500 million upgrading for diesel refineries to met the ULSD mandates. Mobil; and Caltex were on exemptions, but I think they may be now compliant, but do not add an additive to keep the fuel at the maximum specifications.
There are solutions to improving the fuel ,but its another thread.
Richard

[DutchAussie]

Dougie
Providing the fuel is from BP or Shell you have no real problems the Bio mix is to Australian standards as to euro v fuel watch mandates.
Most of Germany in the main stream now runs B20 as standard Diesel fuels.
As it is an ethanol base fuel, this fuel will have a negative impact on your engine and do less damage,than standard Diesel ULSD, VW should have an Australian rating on ULSD Diesel fuels sold in Australia.
The seller should have had a pump warning as this fuel can damage older Diesel engines with long term use in some engines
But how did you know you put Bio fuel in it?
Richard

Altered Sprinter,

you mentioned "an Ethanol based Fuel". Are you talking about Biodiesel made with Ethanol instead of Methanol?

[brackie]

Wow, Alfred.... There's a lot of info in your post, most of which I wasn't aware. Where did you gain this knowledge?

I reckon the majority of motorists (how I hate that term!) just go for the cheapest fuel. I get my farm tank filled by a fuel distributor and I have no idea where the diesel comes from. Perhaps the fact that I've had no IP leakage is due to the shonky fuel he's supplying :???:

I was aware that a lot of the cut price fuel companies were buying takerfuls from Singapore etc so how can we guarantee that it meets the Oz standard? It should as there is legislation to support this.

[phaeton]

Altered Sprinter = Richard not Alfred brackie ;)

Richard has heaps of knowledge not many people know lol ;)

It does suck the we are way behind on Diesel Tech VW, MB & the rest of DCX will not bring in the Clean Diesel tech eg NOx filters & SCR tech until Aussie Diesel fuel is of higher grade :( (not sure if this applies to trucks too I think DCX are planning on bringing SCR & NOx tech into the whole Truck range)

Aussie Goverment give me Clean Diesel Tech please :D

[Altered Sprinter]

Dougie
Ethanol produced from grain crops, eg, sugar corn etc a pure liquid that retains its fluidity and lubricity in all temperature's.
Bio-mass production from oil based products say from recycled restaurant waste oils or crop grown, have too many issues with gelling and damaging engines, a product not for Australia as it's not the preferred option nor is it recommended for modern diesel engines.vegie oils No, No never.
To be honest with Australian Farm Diesel I never looked into it :? but I'd speculate its not a high quality ULSD Diesel as to existing infrastructures of older machinery on farms running on old technology engines like a John Deere, nothing runs like a Deere:rolleyes:
All new vehicles sold in Australia from July 2006 are designed to run on ULSD only not LSD.
LSD has excessive sulfur content and high acidic contaminating sources within this fuel , problems of oil seals failing EGR fuel line corrosion are common factors, burnt valve faces and behind ports , preventing full closure of the valves back into the inlet results in poor fuel economy. injectors partially blocked by sulfur particularization {contaminated unburnt fuels result in the spray pattern not hitting the valve face for a high fuel burn.}
Burnt piston crowns, scored bore walls caused by particle contamination damage the walls, resulting in line blank spots on the upper cylinder walls at different RPM another story.
Most mechanical breakdowns are linked to poor quality fuels, Australia has good Diesel if you know where to go and what to look for , example a modern station that has a high turnover of Diesel fuel with underground filtration installed to remove water waste inside of the holding tanks, the filters also separate impurity's like a metal compound , which is accumulated from natural degrading of the underground holding tanks.
Its human nature to chase cheap fuel , however with the replacement costs of engine parts it's just not worth the risk.
BP and Shell charge more for their fuel as to it being a high quality Diesel with additives included to help maintain your engine for Maxim efficiency
But even this fuel does not comply to the latest Euro 1V imported vehicles from Europe VW has the latest EGR fuel systems that are specifically designed to run on bio B20 Diesel with ULSD content for 2006 2007 2008 models, 2009 Euro V=B10 Fuel, that is 10/ppm of sulfuric content will be the norm. Australia by 2009 will also be on 10/ppm with a Bio fuel content X=Unknown as this being a political decision If water keeps disappearing we wont be getting any Bio fuels as to the fact it will cost more in energy to produce, than it's worth.
Bio fuels will be part of an energy saving program to reduce Australia's dependency on fuels imported but will never be the mainstream fuel due to current technology we have in place.
There should be warnings on the pumps as they are in Europe and N/America , Australian regulators are responsible for this, but it usually has to do with local government enforcing the regulations fro companies to comply, I can see a lot a complaints coming in the next few years over this and the manufactures running in all directions, Where we have the latest vehicles, but not the latest fuels upper cylinder lubricants are the solution to the fuel problems , but those Manufactures ask them don't know what your talking about , they swill say it will void your warranty, Hell the fuels already done that:???:
At least our dealers will fix and Honor a fault, we can even take the vehicle to a certified mechanic for warranty work, sort of a plus minus if you get the drift.
Conclusion be careful and don't be afraid to ask your fuel station mangers when the fuel filters were changed last, at least fortnightly.
Richard
PS Hello Ben
Sgn Alj: fie
Uhrr' ! Altered again

[brackie]

Australia has good Diesel if you know where to go and what to look for , example a modern station that has a high turnover of Diesel fuel with underground filtration installed to remove water waste inside of the holding tanks, the filters also separate impurity's like a metal compound , which is accumulated from natural degrading of the underground holding tanks.

I doubt if these high standards would be upheld here. Recently a bloke came to our farm from Launceston to pick up 1000L of milk in a cube. He has a '85ish Nissan Patrol flat tray with an SD33 turbo engine. He filled up with diesel at a local servo and made 10km before the thing died. I towed him to the farm and we stuffed around for a couple of hrs bleeding the system etc until it became apparent that the fuel was to blame. A full tank of diesel went into 20L drums for me to to use as a cleaning agent because that was all it was good for. I put some clean diesel into his tank, bled the system and off he went no trouble at all. Last year a guy in a brand new Iveco camper broke down on a hill 1km from the farm. He walked back and I had a look at his problem. Same thing. I rigged up a can of diesel to gravity feed to his fuel filter and got him home so that I could drain, refill and bleed his system. He and his mrs ended up staying at our B$B for 5 days so I was adequately compensated for my trouble :) . Don't know where he filled up.

Yeah... So these anecdotes just illustrate that fuel quality cannot be relied upon. The further you're out in the sticks, the less diesel goes through the servo's tanks, the older the tanks themselves are and the lack of filtration and water separation.... the greater that chances of damage.

But for the owner of a new high-tech European diesel this is a worrying situation. If you have a problem it's all too easy for the dealer to blame the fuel while you are the innocent victim.

[DutchAussie]

Yeah... So these anecdotes just illustrate that fuel quality cannot be relied upon. The further you're out in the sticks, the less diesel goes through the servo's tanks, the older the tanks themselves are and the lack of filtration and water separation.... the greater that chances of damage.

But for the owner of a new high-tech European diesel this is a worrying situation. If you have a problem it's all too easy for the dealer to blame the fuel while you are the innocent victim.

One of the reasons I make my own Biodiesel. As I mentioned before refineries make Diesel, or any other product, to the lowest allowable standards set by the Government. The 10 ppm Sulphur Diesel coming in at January 1, 2009 should be here now for the modern diesel engines.

Buying fuel for your brand new car can be a big worry as God knows what Service Station Owners put in there to make more money.

Buy from large turnover truck stop station may be the best option.

Regards,

Arie

[Altered Sprinter]

Interesting thought
Thinking of Hobart versus somewhere in the out back of whoop whoop with long distance trains delivering Fuel and mixing with multi purpose above ground tanks where problems would eventuate! Then again who owns a 50 grand vehicle up there?
I'm out of the loop dealing with US fuels and Europe including the Middle East, and here I am back home not thinking of North and South of the state.
Hobart and it's surrounding areas where stations are have in the last seven to 10 years, have nearly all gone gone through a massive upgrade of service stations , the local EPA virtually shut down the old stations and had the sites decontaminated, so the fuel is OK in the mainstream, especially when the fuel is delivered from selfs point direct to the service stations.
Not thinking West of the state going up into the North west of Marrawah, dropping back into Smithton, and journeying back through Spud country into Launceston! I guess there are some very old stations and still in private hands, crook fuel ? that's more than likely thinking of heavy condensation of the tanks overnight.
Not sure where the location is that you mentioned a brand new Iveco breaking down > I'll bet it sat in the Lot too long and had stale fuel or a build up of water in the main fuel tank to the best of my knowledge they did not have a water trap in the fuel pump.I guess as you have already stated two vehicles breaking down, that was fuel related issue.
being aware of this, and the plain truth of the matter! 're priming those injectors' , is a real pain, so I use an upper cylinder synthetic diesel ignition improver, The dealer says I don't want to know, it will void your warranty , the Tech guys behind his back , sort of laugh at him and say go for it, besides they have no way of proving I used it apart from the injectors and valves looking like new, then again I have never had fuel issues any where in the world, because I simply put the additives in , it works.
When it comes to a dealer I never listens in most cases they don't really have a clue or even know their own products, so Thinking of an old add on TV back in the last century, Oils ain't oils and neither are the fuels
and being an old boy from the old school of hard knocks, I follow the rules of common sense.

How the PowerStroke injection system works (http://www.blackclouddiesel.com/Tech/howinjectrswrk.htm)

Light-Duty Diesel Diagnosis (http://www.aa1car.com/library/diesel.htm)
Diagnosing Fueling Problems (http://www.blackclouddiesel.com/Tech/Injectionproblems.htm)
How to maintain the engine (http://www.samarins.com/maintenance/engmain.html)
At Least it is not all doom and gloom for Australia, but the public sure could use a little education to have a better understanding on how to maintain a modern Diesel engine.
Thinking you'd get more out of a forum than a dealer would ever give you:idea:
509
Richard

[Bazzamon]

I just go to a BP servo & buy their Diesel....I dont understand the fuss that guys are on about. By the way my 1.9l has 9k on it now & has not used a drop of eng oil, even thou I carry a 1l bottle of eng oil in the boot just in case!

[Altered Sprinter]

Bp fuel Diesel is not always the best for older units, but for new vwchiles with Euro 1V particulate DPF filters you'd be a fool to use any thing else.
Reember NSW has just come out out of winter with onethird of fuel sent using Alpine grade fuel , which will ping the older cars.
Richard