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View Full Version : Fuel - diesel / petrol - RON - Aus / Euro???



seadog
17-04-2007, 09:00 PM
I am now trying to decide on whether to place an order for a 2.0 TDI, 2.0 TFSI or (even) R32. Now, doing my homework carefully obviously the TDI version has much better fuel efficiency than the TFSI - BUT - both TFSI and R32 motors are stated in Australian VW specs to run on 98 RON fuel. In the UK VW state that both motors should run on 95 RON fuel, which is much more readily available here. In fact in many servos in Brisbane it's cheaper than 91 RON!

VW UK state..."Thanks to the knock control, unleaded four star (at least 95 RON can be used instead of unleaded Super plus. In order to achieve maximum fuel consumption benefits on the FSI engine, Ultra Low Sulphur Petrol (ULSP) must be used."

So why do VW insist on 98 RON here?

I am trying to work out the TCO (total cost of ownership) difference between all three engines, given the varying fuel consumption and wide price variations of diesel, PULP and 98 RON PULP. Anyone running these motors on 95 RON?

syncro
17-04-2007, 09:11 PM
If the knock sensor is working, (95 RON) your car is not running efficiently and you will use more fuel. The knock sensor is a safety device to protect your engine.

gldgti
17-04-2007, 09:32 PM
i dont know about your specific question, but i'd say that your diesel golf will last a lot longer than your petrol one, and will be more consistently efficient, where the petrol would not be, making lifetime fuel consumption less.

if you keep your cars for a long time, get the diesel. if your going to sell it in 3 years, do whatever guess.... .but remember, its better for the environment to buy 2nd hand cars and/or keep your car for a long (>>10 years) time.

seadog
18-04-2007, 07:19 AM
Yes I understand how a knock sensor works. The point is that VW Europe say these engines are designed to work on 95 ROn fuel, which is the published specified fuel, but in Australia 98 RON.

Why?

blur32
23-04-2007, 04:50 PM
Yes I understand how a knock sensor works. The point is that VW Europe say these engines are designed to work on 95 ROn fuel, which is the published specified fuel, but in Australia 98 RON.

Why?

Why? Because Aust fuel standards are so crappy. Our fuel is dirtier than UK?Europe and until distributers clean up their act, only 98RON is clean enough.

And if want to save fuel, don't buy an R32...i am getting around 15 to 17ltrs per 100k's (admitedly driven hard)

BlackVr6ix
23-04-2007, 05:08 PM
I was under the impression at least in the v6 passat that you can run 95, but you loose some of your torques.

**Edit** had dads V6 passat for the week and it's done 11.5l/100k. pretty good considering my driving style.

rayray086
24-04-2007, 01:22 PM
So hang on - 98 unleaded here in Australia is basically 95 unleaded in Europe?

aprr32
24-04-2007, 09:04 PM
Who cares about economy, I buy a VW to drive and enjoy to it's maximum potential- thats what good cars are all about. If there is some economy then that a bonus!

Golf Loon
24-04-2007, 09:51 PM
So hang on - 98 unleaded here in Australia is basically 95 unleaded in Europe?

Yup. We get third world standard fuel here and lots of european cars are downtuned to cope with it.

I only run 98 on all my cars. Even the T4 gets it.

Thats why Aussie fuel is cheaper, cos its ****e.

rayray086
25-04-2007, 01:27 AM
Blergh, that's pretty lame.

brackie
25-04-2007, 06:33 AM
Thats why Aussie fuel is cheaper, cos its ****e.
Maybe that's why the TDI that was tested on the Dyno Day did so poorly :???:

We're having a go at the Oz petroleum industry here. Does anybody on the forum work in that area? Can we get some objective comparisons with European fuels? I believe that a lot of our fuel enters Oz in an already refined state. Where is it refined? Singapore? I know that our oil prices are pegged to the Tapis crude oil price out of Singapore and that independent fuel companies buy tankerfuls of refined product. Anybody add to this or dispute it?

Interesting stuff!

DutchAussie
27-04-2007, 04:38 PM
Yup. We get third world standard fuel here and lots of european cars are downtuned to cope with it.

I only run 98 on all my cars. Even the T4 gets it.

Thats why Aussie fuel is cheaper, cos its ****e.

Australian Fuel is made to Australian Standards.

98 RON Petrol is blended to be as close as possible to 98 RON.

Oil companies have to make products to the standards.

98 RON has nothing to do with being cleaner than 95 RON. It is blended in different ratios of components. I use to be a Refinery Production Planner.

Regards,

Arie

BlackVr6ix
27-04-2007, 04:43 PM
i also find different cars react better to different blends.

my alfa got an extra 100k's a tank on mobil synergy 8000, where as my golf gets 50 a tank more on bp 98.

brackie
27-04-2007, 05:11 PM
I use to be a Refinery Production Planner.

Regards,

Arie
Thanks for the input. Are you saying that Oz fuels are as good as Euro fuels? Or are you saying that the Oz standard is the same as the Euro standard?

Good to have someone on the forum who is knowledgeable in this area.

blur32
27-04-2007, 05:18 PM
Australian Fuel is made to Australian Standards.

98 RON Petrol is blended to be as close as possible to 98 RON.

Oil companies have to make products to the standards.

98 RON has nothing to do with being cleaner than 95 RON. It is blended in different ratios of components. I use to be a Refinery Production Planner.

Regards,

Arie

Glad to have someone on board who knows there stuff! We all (like me on this post) have all been to0ld different things and have our own understandings/beliefs. Your input on this will invaluable.

Have you done any testing yourself as to the merits of different brands/octane ratings in Oz? What would your recommendations be?

I have always used Optimax/V-Power as it was the first widely available and i understood it to be very good. Is there better out there?

Thanks in advance for your guidence/input on this

DutchAussie
27-04-2007, 05:33 PM
I have been retired from the oil industry since 2001 but may be able to help people with questions about fuel, etc. I worked 45 years as a Refinery Technician, Training Co-ordinator and Shift Superintendent.
I worked as a Production Planner for Methanex (New Zealand Methanol Plant) and have done a number of other jobs in the industry.

I will set up a page for Fuels & Lubricants on my Home Site to help.

Fire away and I will try and answer your questions. It will keep the old brain ticking over.

Regards,

Arie

DutchAussie
27-04-2007, 05:49 PM
i also find different cars react better to different blends.

my alfa got an extra 100k's a tank on mobil synergy 8000, where as my golf gets 50 a tank more on bp 98.


I will probably get shot for this.

Petrol is made from a number of blendstocks and the blends vary during the year and from what crude oil the blendstocks are made.

As far as performance is concerned there should be little difference between brands.

There are a number of refineries in Australia and it doesn't make a great deal of sense for a company in Victoria to ship their products to Queensland if there is a refinery there. So they exchange products. Sometimes they will add additives at there own refinery but often it is the same stuff.

Blending of fuels and oils is a complicated process because of the variables involved.

Each refinery uses its own process and will have their own blendstocks.

But remember the product has to meet the standards.

RON stands for Research Octane Number and is a measure as to how the engine will perform.

If your engine is designed for 91 RON, filling it with 95 or 98 RON is not going to make much difference in performance. There might be a slight improvement as your wallet will be lighter.

Regards,

Arie

BlackVr6ix
27-04-2007, 06:10 PM
I was under the impression different companies added different additives to maintain a consistant octane rating.

i was also told different cars/engines react differently to different additives.

I'm probably wrong but calculations and real world performance/mileage doesnt lie

DutchAussie
27-04-2007, 07:32 PM
I was under the impression different companies added different additives to maintain a consistant octane rating.

That is correct up to a point. The RON can be blended from a number of components. It usually depends on what is available as to what is put in the blend.

i was also told different cars/engines react differently to different additives.

I am not sure what you mean with this. Do you mean additives put in after you buy the fuel?

I'm probably wrong but calculations and real world performance/mileage doesnt lie

Regards,

Arie

syncro
28-04-2007, 08:01 AM
The problem is, that 95 isn't always 95. Especially on the cheap fuels from overseas. I won't use non brand name fuels. Remember the Woolworths fuel about ten years ago? A lot of people regreted the 3c discount when they rebuilt their engine. And the cheap diesel in southern NSW.

If it pings, it's bad. Very very bad:mad:

DutchAussie
28-04-2007, 09:40 AM
The problem is, that 95 isn't always 95. Especially on the cheap fuels from overseas. I won't use non brand name fuels. Remember the Woolworths fuel about ten years ago? A lot of people regreted the 3c discount when they rebuilt their engine. And the cheap diesel in southern NSW.

If it pings, it's bad. Very very bad:mad:

As far as I know, all fuel imported into this country has to conform to Australian Standards. Any fuel imported for the major oil companies is tested and should comply.

I don't know what happens with independents.

My opinion? Stick with the major companies as per syncros advice and use high turnover service stations (sorry old name-there is no service).

If I have to buy Diesel, I go to a station where the truckies go. If they sell any crap the truckies will soon sort them out.

Arie

DutchAussie
28-04-2007, 09:55 AM
Thanks for the input. Are you saying that Oz fuels are as good as Euro fuels? Or are you saying that the Oz standard is the same as the Euro standard?

Good to have someone on the forum who is knowledgeable in this area.

As I mentioned we make our petrol in Australia to Australian Standards. I think we are always a few steps behind Europe as the quality car manufacturers in Europe put a lot of pressure on the oil companies to supply better fuel. The fuel quality in Europe is mainly governed by pollution prevention requirements.

The vehicle manufacturers have to comply with the laws and redesign their engines accordingly. To meet the requirements the fuel will have to match.

The only reason our fuel is improving is because the companies like VW put pressure on the oil companies and the government in Australia.

Basically any oil company produces fuel to the lowest specification allowable as it cost more to make it better.

RON is only one of the specs but if the spec says 91 RON, that is what you make, not 91.1. This cost more and you will not last long as a Production Planner if you consistently go over the minimum spec.

I hope this helps,

Arie

syncro
28-04-2007, 10:41 AM
As far as I know, all fuel imported into this country has to conform to Australian Standards. Any fuel imported for the major oil companies is tested and should comply.


Yes it should comply but it doesn't and they are getting caught by the testers. Still more profitable to bring in cheap fuel and pay the fines.

Apparently there are two standards for diesel in Australia. I have read that most car manufacturers were reluctant to import oil burners here until recently when we started selling euro standard diesel.
I'm sure some of the oilers here know more about this than me.

brackie
28-04-2007, 10:53 AM
I'm sure some of the oilers here know more about this than me.
We're probably as much in the dark as you are, Phill.

ULSD was introduced last year and as you said, this was to comply to the European Standard. It's a good thing that we're going this way as now we can get European and N American high-efficiency diesel cars.

This is bit off-topic, but I can't understand why the Koreans haven't capitalised on the upsurge in the sales of diesel cars. All of their popular models are available in other parts of the world in diesel form. The same applies to Ford :???:

vinderliker
28-04-2007, 11:19 AM
I have to run PULP in the Little Beastie. Tried the Shell 100 and it has either 5-10% ethanol, I didn't notice much difference, except in the price as usual. When I get the new engine, I think I still use PULP as it burns better.

DutchAussie
28-04-2007, 11:47 AM
I have to run PULP in the Little Beastie. Tried the Shell 100 and it has either 5-10% ethanol, I didn't notice much difference, except in the price as usual. When I get the new engine, I think I still use PULP as it burns better.

I presume the Little Beastie is your 74 Passat and it had to use Super in it's day?

Arie

DutchAussie
28-04-2007, 12:19 PM
We're probably as much in the dark as you are, Phill.

ULSD was introduced last year and as you said, this was to comply to the European Standard. It's a good thing that we're going this way as now we can get European and N American high-efficiency diesel cars.

This is bit off-topic, but I can't understand why the Koreans haven't capitalised on the upsurge in the sales of diesel cars. All of their popular models are available in other parts of the world in diesel form. The same applies to Ford :???:

Brackie,

looking at your signature are you a Diesel fan?

Arie

DutchAussie
28-04-2007, 01:00 PM
The following are Sulphur Specifications for Australian Diesel:

From:

31-Dec-02 500 ppm (max)
01-Jan-06 50 ppm (max)
01-Jan-09 10 ppm (max)

I am looking forward to the 10 ppm. We are now getting somewhere with our Diesel.
All we need now is the Government reducing its Tax on Tax.

Arie

brackie
28-04-2007, 02:00 PM
We are now getting somewhere with our Diesel.
All we need now is the Government reducing its Tax on Tax.

Arie
The govmt reducing any tax on the motorist :D No way Jose! The Europeans are just so far ahead of us.

Biodiesel = UULSD

DutchAussie
28-04-2007, 02:20 PM
Glad to have someone on board who knows there stuff! We all (like me on this post) have all been to0ld different things and have our own understandings/beliefs. Your input on this will invaluable.

Have you done any testing yourself as to the merits of different brands/octane ratings in Oz? What would your recommendations be?

I have always used Optimax/V-Power as it was the first widely available and i understood it to be very good. Is there better out there?

Thanks in advance for your guidence/input on this



I have only tried Mobil products as I receive an ex employee discount.

You should not notice any real difference between petrol from the major oil companies. I used to work for Shell in Holland and frequently traveled with
someone who used Esso petrol and said Shell was rubbish. It made his engine ping,etc. I knew for a fact his fuel came from the same tank but couldn't say anything.

I haven't used Optimax/V-Power and without scientific comparison tests couldn't tell you which is better. The petrol you put in your tank is different in each state, it depends what it is blended from but should have almost identical performance.

I will be supplying more information on my Website in the near future.

Regards,

Arie

briseos
28-04-2007, 02:27 PM
2.0TDi Golf V Sportline DSG Leather - only ever run on BP ULS diesel 45000km, spent total $3400 on fuel - avg 6.4l/100k around town, now <5l/100k on open road (110kmh)

Little story about WHY YOU SHOULD CHOOSE DIESEL

Recent high-sport run through the sunshine coast hinterland with good friend in re-chipped GTI

He couldn't get away from me other than initially off the line - kept the heat on his tail big time - 250km (avg speed 108kmh) later I had used 6.6 litres/100km and he had used 15 litres/100km.... and mine is stock standard!!

Comparison ride in each others cars - gotta say the comfort levels in Sportline leather sport seats (std) better than GTI cloth sports - and the suspension more compliant - handling amazingly comparable in real world enthusiastic driving

On the track, no doubt the GTI is a better track car BUT that is not where we normally drive - HE was shocked with his first TDi experience

The POINT - once you get used to the slightly different driving characteristics of the TDI (DSG compulsory!!) you will never drive anything else again.... torque, accelleration, handling and all with economy and a little more engine noise - the sound is the money landing back in your wallet!!:cool: :evil:

DutchAussie
28-04-2007, 02:42 PM
2.0TDi Golf V Sportline DSG Leather - only ever run on BP LS diesel

Recent high-sport run through the sunshine coast hinterland with good friend in re-chipped GTI

He couldn't get away from me other than initially off the line - kept the heat on his tail big time - 250km (avg speed 108kmh) later I had used 6.6 litres/100km and he had used 15 litres/100km.... and mine is stock standard!!

Comparison ride in each others cars - gotta say the comfort levels in Sportline leather sport seats (std) better than GTI cloth sports - and the suspension more compliant - handling amazingly comparable in real world enthusiastic driving

On the track, no doubt the GTI is a better track car BUT that is not where we normally drive - HE was shocked with his first TDi experience

The POINT - once you get used to the slightly different driving characteristics of the TDI (DSG compulsory!!) you will never drive anything else again.... torque, accelleration, handling and all with economy and a little more engine noise - the sound is the money landing back in your wallet!!:cool: :evil:

My Caddy has the 1.9 L TDI with DSG. I love driving the van.

The Diesel is brilliant and mine is running on 100% Biodiesel! Love the DSG, I often use the gears manually for deceleration.

I think anyone who drives the TDI will be sold.

Arie

vinderliker
28-04-2007, 03:15 PM
Yep, when she was first released she had to run on Super. At least I don't have to add a lead substitute.



I presume the Little Beastie is your 74 Passat and it had to use Super in it's day?

Arie

DutchAussie
28-04-2007, 04:45 PM
Yep, when she was first released she had to run on Super. At least I don't have to add a lead substitute.

Super in the 70's had an RON of 98. This was leaded petrol as far as I can remember.

Do you use a Lead Replacement Additive now?

Arie

vinderliker
29-04-2007, 01:06 PM
Arie
No I don't have to use an additive, my mechanic said it was not necessary. Do you concur?
James




Super in the 70's had an RON of 98. This was leaded petrol as far as I can remember.

Do you use a Lead Replacement Additive now?

Arie

DutchAussie
29-04-2007, 02:40 PM
Arie
No I don't have to use an additive, my mechanic said it was not necessary. Do you concur?
James

If the car was designed for leaded petrol you could damage the valves by using unleaded petrol, however many cars were OK to use unleaded when it was introduced.

Maybe VW gurus like "Pheaton or Syncro" can help here.

Arie

h100vw
29-04-2007, 02:59 PM
I think every VW made since 74 can run on unleaded of the correct octane without modification.

On another note my Seat Ibiza GTI and Audi seem to run OK on the ULP plus stuff that I can get up near Sir Don Bradman on Marion road. I have to admit that since chipping the Ibiza it runs much better on 98 like ultimate and V power.

My driving is so varied, traffic as well as open road, that it is tough to say whether one gives better economy over another.

Gavin

DutchAussie
29-04-2007, 03:20 PM
I think every VW made since 74 can run on unleaded of the correct octane without modification.

On another note my Seat Ibiza GTI and Audi seem to run OK on the ULP plus stuff that I can get up near Sir Don Bradman on Marion road. I have to admit that since chipping the Ibiza it runs much better on 98 like ultimate and V power.

My driving is so varied, traffic as well as open road, that it is tough to say whether one gives better economy over another.

Gavin

Thanks for the info. I am updating my Website for information on Petrol, Diesel, Biofuels and Lubricants. Initially I will provide Mobil information, but to be fair to the other companies they will also be included.

Keep an eye on my site as I am updating daily.

I hope to eventually put a Fuels & Lubricants FAQ together from all the questions asked in various forums.

Regards,

Arie

syncro
29-04-2007, 03:42 PM
I think every VW made since 74 can run on unleaded of the correct octane without modification.

Gavin


That is 100% correct.:)

Rednut
01-05-2007, 08:29 PM
i put $30 of mobil's E10 fuel in today.. i think it'll be the last time!! i swear ive lost at least 20% torque..

DutchAussie
01-05-2007, 11:17 PM
i put $30 of mobil's E10 fuel in today.. i think it'll be the last time!! i swear ive lost at least 20% torque..

Rednut,

I am not aware of any E10. What is it? I presume it contains 10 % Ethanol?

What were you using before?

I presume you are in NSW?

As far as I am aware Mobil only sells:

Synergy 2000, 6000 and 8000 petrol.

Arie

syncro
02-05-2007, 07:22 AM
i put $30 of mobil's E10 fuel in today.. i think it'll be the last time!! i swear ive lost at least 20% torque..

Ethanol has a higher octane rating, but a lower calorific value than petrol. So the fuel produces less power than 98.

DutchAussie
02-05-2007, 09:43 AM
Ethanol has a higher octane rating, but a lower calorific value than petrol. So the fuel produces less power than 98.


Do the Mobil Service Stations in NSW have Ethanol blended petrol?

It is not on their Website.

Arie

syncro
02-05-2007, 10:10 AM
Do the Mobil Service Stations in NSW have Ethanol blended petrol?

Arie

Don't think so.

Not really interested anyway. Not good for old cars. (Very corrosive)

BlackVr6ix
02-05-2007, 10:38 AM
Not recommended for alloy engines. i've tried it a few times, noticable power increase when using bp 100, but engine runs hotter and uses more fuel.

not worth it IMHO.

Rednut
02-05-2007, 12:33 PM
my bad.. ampol is the servo not mobil (they have a similar logo)

Volkswagen All Volkswagen vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10, but Volkswagen does not recommend it. <-- heh. last time! from what i can find on it.. its just temporarily cheaper alternative.. but in the not so distant future, you'll need to purchase a newer car as the fuel will have killed it!

on the topic.. when the fuel price gonna drop.. $1.20+ is well shiz!

Golf Loon
04-05-2007, 07:51 AM
i put $30 of mobil's E10 fuel in today.. i think it'll be the last time!! i swear ive lost at least 20% torque..

Put 95octane or higer in that car you Nut.

gldgti
08-05-2007, 08:37 PM
on the topic.. when the fuel price gonna drop.. $1.20+ is well shiz!

fuel price drop??? why would you think that will ever happen? get used to it mate, the only way is up from here.

you dudes think i drive a diesel because im a tight arse? no way. its because petrol (and pump diesel) is going to get expensive and you cant run your petrol car on a cheap renewable fuel - you can run a diesel on one though.

DutchAussie
08-05-2007, 10:40 PM
fuel price drop??? why would you think that will ever happen? get used to it mate, the only way is up from here.

you dudes think i drive a diesel because im a tight arse? no way. its because petrol (and pump diesel) is going to get expensive and you cant run your petrol car on a cheap renewable fuel - you can run a diesel on one though.

I run my VW Caddy on 100% Biodiesel and it is ticking over like a Rolex watch.

Regards,

Arie