16v Cupra

[V666]

The project begins.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/06/IMGP1547-2.jpg
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/06/IMGP1546-2.jpg
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/06/IMGP1544-2.jpg


After rear ending a Civic yesterday:( I thought its time to take the Ibiza off the road and start the rebuild.

First on the job list engine overhaul to also include abit more punch!

[Jarred]

Bad new about running into a civic, great new about the project starting though! woot!

Can't wait for this, it'll be proper by the time it's done!

[16v_kid]

I like these things. Good luck with the fix.

[V666]

Yeah cheers guys, bit gutting smacking it, but its the push I needed!! Just weighing up different conversions and options on the abf at the mo. At the top is either 16v g60 with BBM charger or high revving 16v on Jenvey throttle bodies with massive head work.

[mk3pete]

dude that sucks, good to hear your getting it started il have to come round and c wat your doing soon :)
woot for progress!!!

[V666]

Yeah defo pete come round for a drink whenever you got time.

[Water Boy]

Bummer about the civic crash derby.

But if thats the motivation ya need lest all crash our cars... (Please dont)

BBM charger sounds good.

[mk3pete]

sounds good wats your address....

[V666]

its 17 rowell drive, just follow grieg round into pittway youll see the Veolia van on the drive

[GoLfMan]

awesome dude!
really looking forward to seeing progress :D

I vote for an off its head NA set up on throttles

[V666]

TB's are cheaper even with the custom manifold etc, also I think BHP per $ would be better than the charger. Although the sound of a charger whistling and chirping is something I miss!! (but not the repair bills:( )

[V666]

Throttle bodies it has to be, been looking at different setups i.e motor bike carbs etc, looks like it will be the Jenveys as they offer the most bhp gains. Just gotta deceide on what cams and how much head work, and if the bottom end needs improving etc etc. Gonna need some advice i think?!:confused:

[Jarred]

Woot! charger would have been mean, but ITB's are like nothing else!

[mk3pete]

i agree itbs are awesome
i recommend going to
R G Baker Cyclinder heads
Factory 9, 11 Clarice Road, Box Hill, VIC 3128
Ph: (03) 98991400
james recommended these guys for my head
they done an awesome job

[Jarred]

I used rob too to have my mk 2's head skimmed. hot tank and skim cost $70 bucks, easy as (fish) pie

[Cupra]

Just noticed this thread, cupra rebuild, nice!!

Get some spacers for the rear!!!

Phil

[GoLfMan]

hell yeh ITB's! I cant WAIT to hear this thing :D

[16v_kid]

ITB's for the win.

We got ours from Bildon, which sell TWM throttle bodies. Check them out...there on sale too!

[V666]

Cheers guys will give them a call this week but not because I like the fish pie, much prefer the grilled:P Just checked out the vw 16v kit looks like high quality stuff. Defo worth a comparing to Jenveys.

[velly_16v_cab]

i really would be carefull with iTB's, you need to find someone who can set them up correctly. If i remember correctly 'valver' spent LOADS in getting his sorted back in the day.

Save cash, go for twin weber 45's

but TBH, a sorted head and say some 268 or 272 cams, 4 branch manifold and tidy exhuast and you should be seeing 180bhp and still get great fuel.

[jayjay]

i played around with megasquirt on a 16v with gsxr throttles for a few hours. it was roughly tuned and we got it pretty good over the span of a weekend.

went extremely hard too... (fast). don't be afraid with itbs. :)

[V666]

cheers for the advice velly, but really want more than 200+ hp for the cupra as its only a sunday drive car and will definitely be used on the track. Unless carbs can get that sort of hp on the same engine build?

[Golf Loon]

i played around with megasquirt on a 16v with gsxr throttles for a few hours. it was roughly tuned and we got it pretty good over the span of a weekend.

went extremely hard too... (fast). don't be afraid with itbs. :)

Yup, the car was rapid and fuel management was easy to build and tune.
The owner Brent pointed out that the fastest VWs in the world are in the states and lots of them use megasquirt.
They even have sites where you can swop tunes for megasquirt :)

[velly_16v_cab]

cheers for the advice velly, but really want more than 200+ hp for the cupra as its only a sunday drive car and will definitely be used on the track. Unless carbs can get that sort of hp on the same engine build?

200+......then you will need a turbo or a supercharger for sure.

not being funny but you dont see many N/A 16v's break the 200 mark.


my 1.8 16v on twin 40's was good for 170 bhp and 145 torques :) lovely sound and massive flames from the exhaust FTW.

i still think a head and cams will give you what you a quick car and 90% of the power figures you want.

[Jarred]

you might run into problems putting carbs onto a car that came fitted with fuel injection standard.

EDIT: not physically, due to legal emissions requirements etc

[GoLfMan]

run ITB's with mega squirt. You may not get 200+bhp but you'll get close :)

[velly_16v_cab]

you might run into problems putting carbs onto a car that came fitted with fuel injection standard.
Not really jarred, carbs are more basic and easier to put onto the car as you will be removing all the fuel injection stuff off the car.


run ITB's with mega squirt. You may not get 200+bhp but you'll get close :)
this is my point, if you set your sights at 180/190 bhp this can be done with the ABF injection.

[Jarred]

sorry Vel, I meant legally. cause of emission requirements and stuff.

[velly_16v_cab]

sorry Vel, I meant legally. cause of emission requirements and stuff.
i understand now, i still cant get my head around these laws!!!

i totally agree with you on that one J :)

[Peter Jones]

Biggest problem I see with converting to carbs would be ignition control.

You'll also need to figure out how you're going to get fuel out of the tank.

[V666]

Im glad you guys have got the know how, cause Im sure Ill have more and more questions as the build continues:P. Ive started on a list of performance parts needed hopefully to be achieved by early next year as the budget (read as other half) dictates. Apperently its not a sound investment or something?Anyway

-Jenvey direct to head ITBs 45mm, with injector size unknown at present, more reserch needed as is the fuel pump.
-Some serious head work
-Kent cams 296 duration (3000-8000rpm) 11.3 valve and cam lift, with associated cam followers pulleys etc
-JE pistons and Pauter rods specs again unknown, but Im sure theres brains to be picked!
-balanced, knife edged crank
-4 branch exhaust manifold supersprint stainless
-2.5" straight through exhaust with rear muffler (need to find out emission law?)
-mega squirt II v3 and a ton of wiring issues Im sure.

Anyone know of a good electonics guru as Im sure Ill need one!

[16v_kid]

-JE pistons and Pauter rods specs again unknown, but Im sure theres brains to be picked!
!

This combination is amazing. Been using these two brands for many of our engines. Your rod lengh will be 159mm if 9a?

[V666]

Cheers anything else you recommend to help keep the strength in the bottom end.

[Preen59]

A standard bottom end will handle 8000rpm. just put a decent set of ARP (or equivalent) rod bolts in it.



Biggest problem I see with converting to carbs would be ignition control.

You'll also need to figure out how you're going to get fuel out of the tank.

Very true, Pete. Some people miss the basics..

[16v_kid]

A standard bottom end will handle 8000rpm. just put a decent set of ARP (or equivalent) rod bolts in it.



If your going this far with an engine, why not spend 800-$900 dollars on Pauter Rods? PS: Pauter rods already come with ARP bolts.

[velly_16v_cab]

badger5.com is where i would buy iTB's from. Bill really knows his stuff and i am pretty sure he will hook you up. tell him i sent you ;)

[V666]

Nice one Velly thanks for the advice. Remember seeing his Ibiza what a noise!! and the speed!

[Water Boy]

For some ITB action and fueling etc.

Steve newing is rad bloke. My olman has run some of his stuff:

Throttle Bodies, EFI Fuel Pumps, EFI Regulators, Wolf 3D Engine Management Systems, EFI Hardware (http://www.efihardware.com/)

For injectors etc:

Powerflow Performance (http://www.powerflowperformance.com.au/index.php?osCsid=cefba74655f6a9d9b27eb5a2f10f8488)

My Dad has run a lot of there stuff and recomends highly.

It Aussie made and buildt here in Eastside Victoria.

[Preen59]

Just a word of advice mate.. Listen to Velly (he has been there and done it- Along with countless mates of his..) and Waterboy (his old man has been there and done it, and still is).

You'll find that some people give out a lot of advice when they have no personal experience.. Take it or leave it, just saying... :)

[Kiel_GTI]

I'm not backward in coming forward. Deal with it.

someones been drinking too much hateorade.

OP: project sounds the goods mate.

[V666]

Cheers James will defo look at their stuff as your Dad recommends them! cant say better than that. I hope Velly wont mind picking his brains, now I know his done it all before.

So standard rods will be fine, just wanted to make sure the cams will be utilized too their full potential and didnt want problems with a weak link in the mix revving out to 8000rpm. But if 350bhp can reached on standard rods with ARP bolts then mine will be fine, not going anywhere near that high!!

By the way really appreciate the help and suggestions guys.

[Jarred]

Cheers James will defo look at their stuff as your Dad recommends them! cant say better than that. I hope Velly wont mind picking his brains, now I know his done it all before.

So standard rods will be fine, just wanted to make sure the cams will be utilized too their full potential and didnt want problems with a weak link in the mix revving out to 8000rpm. But if 350bhp can reached on standard rods with ARP bolts then mine will be fine, not going anywhere near that high!!

By the way really appreciate the help and suggestions guys.

I'd at getting a local ECU perhaps, as opposed to megasquirt. MS is all good and well, and fun if you want to play with it yourself, but if you run into troubles there isn't any local hands on support, it's all online. If you went with a local ECU (microtech, autronic etc) you'll have much more local support when it comes to fine tuning and troubleshooting.

everything else sounds good though :D

I'm assuming you'll be looking at doing the box as well? diff?

[Preen59]

Actually people make 350 odd hp on bog standard rods without any problems. Also, Colin Gyenes' (works for Techtonics Tuning) Mk1 Rabbit drag car used to turn over 9k sometimes with zero failures.

When i spoke to them about my engine, Colin said "how hard do you want to rev it?" so i just picked a high figure out of the air and said "8500rpm" and without a pause he said "Standard rods and pistons will be fine.."

Running decent rod bolts is just good insurance, really.


someones been drinking too much hateorade.

Nothing like that dude. I'm just sick of people with no actual experience or knowledge steering people in the wrong direction. :)

[Golf Loon]

In regards to the fuel trimming and tuning. Either use a system where you know someone local who can tune it, or if you are an IT type, get something easy to program and tune it yourself. M.S has a good interface and has good documentation online of what sensors you need and how to set it up.

I agree that leaglly you will not be able to register the car with carbs and pass emmissions.

Megasquirt on ITBs would be emissions friendly, and not that hard.

Send a message to pepperwhite, he has a 16v on ITBs and M.S in a Mk1.
He wired it all up himself and hes not a techie.

Also have a couple of Diesel Gearboxes that have the ratios to make a 16v haul ass. Straight bolt in for your car, hit me up if you feel the need.

[velly_16v_cab]

love that link james (waterboy) put up. that is a starting point and the prices arent to bad either!

if your going to mess with your gear box and get an LSD fitted look at changing the final drive to if you can afford the extra money. An LSD is well worth every penny if your using the car on a track.

[jayjay]

i'm not too sure about the local support of autronic/microtech j-rad. they're great systems n all, but there are only a few people i'd trust with my built motor, a lap top and a dyno. not sure how the support is in melbourne but there's only a couple up here.

i was also advised from techtonics that stock 16v rods would be fine for 8k+. :) it's predominantly the head that gets its valve float on above 7500, thus requiring HD valve springs. :)

[V666]

Awesome guys, would be definetly interested in the diesel box Matt, Ive been looking at the new wavetrac diffs seem like a pretty good bit of engineering. I think you guys are right about the ECU keep it local as tuning will be left to the experts (not me!).

[Jarred]

i'm not too sure about the local support of autronic/microtech j-rad.

I am.

Go pick up a Street Machine, Street Commodoores/Fords, etc etc. And look at the cars, the cars running EFI are running these types of ECU's. (not limited to those two though). A couple of them are Aussie made even! It's all about picking the right tuner, but that's a given.

[Water Boy]

There is like 100+ people whou could tune autronic/microtech In Victoria. My Dad can...

[Big Yellow]

There is like 100+ people whou could tune autronic/microtech In Victoria. My Dad can...

so can Lucas :)

[jayjay]

well i just hope you take it to a good tuner then! :) that's all. I'm quite excited about someone doing something to their car.... doesn't seem to happen much nowadays.

[velly_16v_cab]

why a diesel gear box? are these short ratios?
I alway thought they was taller ratio as you will have the high torque to pull it through with a diesel.
If your going to put in a LSD, why not change the final drive?

[V666]

well i just hope you take it to a good tuner then! :) that's all. I'm quite excited about someone doing something to their car.... doesn't seem to happen much nowadays.

Well i hope it will be proper be the time its done, Im sure it wont be to everyones taste, but eh its gonna be what I want in the end.

[V666]

why a diesel gear box? are these short ratios?
I alway thought they was taller ratio as you will have the high torque to pull it through with a diesel.
If your going to put in a LSD, why not change the final drive?

If the final drive is changed does this mean all the gears are changed i.e shorter final drive quicker acceleration. Im not too clued up on gearboxs as you can tell! and I take it someone who knows what their doing would be advised and not me taking an educated guess on taking it apart?!!

[Preen59]

its gonna be what I want in the end.

Don't ever forget that, mate. You're the one paying the bills and it's YOUR car. :)

[velly_16v_cab]

If the final drive is changed does this mean all the gears are changed i.e shorter final drive quicker acceleration. Im not too clued up on gearboxs as you can tell! and I take it someone who knows what their doing would be advised and not me taking an educated guess on taking it apart?!!

your gap between each gear will remain the same but it will make all the gears lower ratio. so you Vmax will be less but will help loads on acceleration and mean you should use all gears on a track.

[V666]

Havent got much progress on the Cupra as of late need some inspiration and better tools!!! but thought I might start looking at wheels to give me a boost been looking at good ol Image rims pretty hooked on these ones

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/07/billet_60_16inch-1.jpg

[Preen59]

Don't mind them at all! :)

[V666]

Cheers Preen was looking at them in 16 x 8's might even order them tonight?! meant to be getting a new tv:rolleyes:

Need to get this engine out, need crane + other tools to finish it. Have also been thinking about sending the whole engine off to be rebuilt, dont think Im quite ready to start pulling it apart myself:confused:

Has anyone got any recommendations for performance engine rebuilds around the Melb area? or else where if not. Just need some guidence really how far to take it.

[Preen59]

"Performance" engine rebuild? Really, for what you want, you just need everything cleaned up and new parts fitted. I'm not saying you're building a whipper snipper engine, but the VW engines don't need anything special done to them for a fast street application. Pretty much any GOOD engine shop would be quite capable. However, i have no personal recommendations, but who ever built, say, waterboy's old man's engine would be trustworthy, i reckon. :)

[Water Boy]

My olamn can rebuild it for ya...

[V666]

That would be awesome need to meet up and have a chat etc.

[V666]

Bit more progress not alot though!! removing and labelling harness was a bitch!! almost ready for removal.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/08/IMGP1569-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/08/IMGP1568-1.jpg

[Jarred]

Nice! good to see you're getting stuck in!

[h100vw]

Nice! good to see you're getting stuck in!
Just through the door Jarred and you're all over Watercooled... Well done!

On the Ibiza project, this is the voice of reason talking.... or your dad.... or someone else that has thrown money at projects before.

Without doubt the ITBs will make power, not cheap like carbs but if carbs were that good they would be still in use in F1. For me though, I'd prep the engine, if you feel it needs it. New bearings through out, rings etc. ARP bolts if you really think it'll rev like a motorbike. Obviously, have it all balanced while it's apart, with the flywheel and clutch fitted.(VR6 cover and std disc). Get the head done, ported, cams and maybe go to solid lifters?? I believe you can pull hydraulic ones apart and make up shims to fit inside them.

Next I'd fire it all up std and see how it performs. For cheap money, I'd consider putting a chip in the ECU. Now there's going to be some spluttering at this comment I know. The ABF is alleged to make 175hp with no other tuning apart from a chip. It was detuned to put space between it and the VR6. I had a MK3 16V in the UK and loved it, nice and smooth, revved well, K-jet throttle response, good on fuel.

I can well believe the rumours of the missing 25hp.

See how it goes like that and then get on the case with the ITBs. If you have the time, megasquirt would be good to use IMO. A mate used it on a turbo mk1 he built and he ain't no rocket scientist. He had a mk1 in the UK with a 2.1 16V that dyno'd over 200 on carbs, with schricks and headwork. You can tune it yourself, the use of a wideband lambda probe would make life easy. Innovate do one. I'd lend you mine if you wanted.

Get a book called Engine Management by Dave Walker. Haynes publish it, very good info on starting from scratch.

I think some injectors from a MK4 GTI or maybe a TT would be plenty adequate for fuelling. The std ones may work at a push, with an increase in fuel pressure.


Please shoot down my theories nicely. :D

Gavin

[V666]

Thanks for all the advice! quite alot to absorb, basically all I need to know is what its gonna take to be knocking on the door of 200bhp and how much I might be able to do myself:P

[Water Boy]

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/09/16v_itb_f2-1.jpg

[Valver.]

I used to have a built 16v Cupra with EFI Hardware throttle bodies quite a while back. I sold it to a guy who owned a Midas store in Brisbane, who later pulled the motor out and fitted a souless 1.8T! I've no idea what happened to the 'proper' engine.

200hp is a walk in the park with the right parts. More compression (there are plenty of nice quality cast pistons, so you needn't spend the big $ on Wossners or the like, and deal with the oil consumption etc), some 27x-28x odd cams with decent lift (11mm odd), headwork (standard valves will flow sufficiently for the target figure), a nice exhaust manifold and 2.5" system.

Throttle bodies don't ultimately raise the peak output much more than 10%, but they do fill in the torque hole you create by raising the peak volumetric efficiency higher in the rev range with bigger cams and larger ports.

I'd forget all of this for now, though. The first thing to do is lighten the flywheel and replace the crown wheel and pinion with a 3.94 or 4.24:1. You'll feel like you have another 30% more grunt after you've done this alone!!

[Valver.]

By the way, dBilas Dynamic make a direct bolt on ITB/chip/airbox/ISV/TPS kit for the ABF engine, allowing standard management etc all for around $2,700AUD shipped, plus import duty. I have one in the post, so will be able to report on what it's like pretty soon :D

[Water Boy]

By the way, dBilas Dynamic make a direct bolt on ITB/chip/airbox/ISV/TPS kit for the ABF engine, allowing standard management etc all for around $2,700AUD shipped, plus import duty. I have one in the post, so will be able to report on what it's like pretty soon :D

Wow! (So easy...)

[jayjay]

Does that have the throttles feeding from a plenum which routes to the MAF and IAT? I've been theorizing about how people run ITBs and standard engine management, and that seems like the only feasible way, except for maybe 4 modified individual MAFs and harnesses.

That sounds so cheap and easy though! plug and play!!

[Valver.]

Does that have the throttles feeding from a plenum which routes to the MAF and IAT? I've been theorizing about how people run ITBs and standard engine management, and that seems like the only feasible way, except for maybe 4 modified individual MAFs and harnesses.

That sounds so cheap and easy though! plug and play!!

The ABF doesn't use an air flow meter; it has an internal MAP sensor, which instantly makes things a lot easier. I suppose this is vacuumed straight off the direct-to-head manifold, much like you'd do with brake vacuum. The IAT can plug in anywhere. The TPS functions as the primary load sensor. I'll post some pictures of the kit once it arrives :)

[jayjay]

that does make things a lot easier.. pics would be awesome.

basically converting to alpha-N using the stock ECU with modified fuel and timing maps, correct?

What about brake vacuum?

or is it more "what about brake vacuum"? (with the emphasis on about)