Selling a car under finance..

[elisiX]

Hi All,

Had quite the experience this afternoon selling my car to make way for the new GTI (or R... )

Had this err lovely family from Roselands come inspect the car.

They spent the first half hour telling me about how they couldn't find a car like it anywhere (all manuals and mine auto as one example). Then they spent another half hour telling me how there was repaired damage all over the car - which was bull**** and not true. I took offence to this, even if it were a buyers tactic, and mentioned that I wasn't from Bankstown so they had nothing to worry about. Seeing as they are from that persuasion, they didn't take too kindly to that - fair enough I suppose.

My question though is about the finance on the vehicle. The car's actually in my girls name (even though I pay for it) and I have authority with Esanda to speak on her behalf. I've got the payout for it and so on and will use the proceeds from the sale to pay the car out (with a small shortfall to be covered by myself also). This is the issue. I told them to simply pay me the money directly and ill pay it out along with the shortfall.

I mentioned that after i'd done this, they could do their revs check etc and confirm that the finance was clear. They either didn't understand or perhaps I didn't (I usually pay cash for my cars or have them financed through work). They kept making comments about me taking their money and running (wtf) and that it was illegal for me to accept payment from them if the car is under finance? I am not sure about this.

In the end I simply said to pay Esanda directly and ill pay Esanda directly the difference so that the only money changing hands was the deposit.

I'm not 100% sure how this will work though. Esanda obviously wont give out any details on my partner and I, so when the buyers make out the cheque, do they simply write our account number @ Esanda on the back? Therefore Esanda banks the cheque against my girls account? What's the process from there? Do they wait for the finance payment to clear and then do a revs (for thier own peace of mind) and I hand it over?

Sorry and just finally - when that's done I simply fill out my portion of the Rego changeover section on the back of the old Rego papers?

[elisiX]

This is a response I got on OCAU


They pay the fiancer, you pay whatever is remaining, you receive two signed letters saying the car is now free from finance (very important) you give one of the letters to the buyer along with the keys + the sellers portion of the rego papers and off they go.

Makes sense I suppose. Everyone's safe then.

Just waiting on them to have someone do an inspection on the car (NRMA stylez) then payments can be made to Esanda.

[WhiteJames]

Have the prospective buyer pay Esanda directly by cheque. Any other amount owing can be paid by cheque directly to the leasee of the vehicle (you). In other words: Two cheques - one to Esanda, one to you for the balance. If you sold the vehicle for less than the lease payout figure, then you'd have to pay the difference by cheque to clear the emcumberance.

If you receive the full payment for the value of the vehicle by cheque or cash and decide not to pay out the lease/loan ... then the finance company would be asking the prospective purchaser to clear the debt or seek repossession of the vehicle.

If it makes it easy, agree to meet with the Greenacre Boys at Esanda and clear the debt with both seller & purchaser present - this will satisfy both parties immediately eliminating any suspicion by the prospective owner. You can then sign the transfer slip and hand over the vehicle there and then, after they inspect it again to ensure it's in the same condition as previous inspection.

I'm no civil legal expert, but thats my understanding of these matters. Hope this helps.

Cheers.
WJ

[night_flight]

Hi All,

Had quite the experience this afternoon selling my car to make way for the new GTI (or R... )

Had this err lovely family from Roselands come inspect the car.

They spent the first half hour telling me about how they couldn't find a car like it anywhere (all manuals and mine auto as one example). Then they spent another half hour telling me how there was repaired damage all over the car - which was bull**** and not true. I took offence to this, even if it were a buyers tactic, and mentioned that I wasn't from Bankstown so they had nothing to worry about. Seeing as they are from that persuasion, they didn't take too kindly to that - fair enough I suppose.

My question though is about the finance on the vehicle. The car's actually in my girls name (even though I pay for it) and I have authority with Esanda to speak on her behalf. I've got the payout for it and so on and will use the proceeds from the sale to pay the car out (with a small shortfall to be covered by myself also). This is the issue. I told them to simply pay me the money directly and ill pay it out along with the shortfall.

I mentioned that after i'd done this, they could do their revs check etc and confirm that the finance was clear. They either didn't understand or perhaps I didn't (I usually pay cash for my cars or have them financed through work). They kept making comments about me taking their money and running (wtf) and that it was illegal for me to accept payment from them if the car is under finance? I am not sure about this.

In the end I simply said to pay Esanda directly and ill pay Esanda directly the difference so that the only money changing hands was the deposit.

I'm not 100% sure how this will work though. Esanda obviously wont give out any details on my partner and I, so when the buyers make out the cheque, do they simply write our account number @ Esanda on the back? Therefore Esanda banks the cheque against my girls account? What's the process from there? Do they wait for the finance payment to clear and then do a revs (for thier own peace of mind) and I hand it over?

Sorry and just finally - when that's done I simply fill out my portion of the Rego changeover section on the back of the old Rego papers?

I have sold my car astra which was under esanda finance...all i know is it takes time with esanda even when they recieve money 2 weeks....you cant esentially sell the car until its paid off.. well esanda is. until esanda is paid in full even tho you posses the car in my opinion esanda still has the control over that asset so in fact they are the owners. the problem is the other party if they pay esanda has no garantee i guess that you will sell the car..because who is NOT the owner CAN NOT sell the car. what i did is i paid off my remainder loan lump sum then sold the car. (esadna took about 3 weeks to clear it off).

[FJ Steve]

FWIW,

If I am buying a used car...I do a REVs check before making an offer. If there is finance still oweing on the car, I ask (depending whether the car is worth the hassle) what the "seller" is going to do about it. If the "seller" is not the registered owner of the car....I'm gone. Just not worth the hassles. Sorry to the OP, but IMHO, you need to get your and your girlfriends records straightened up first.

[Corey_R]

I have to agree with the potential buyers here. There is no way in hell I'd give a private individual money for a car with finance still owing on it. As they have said, there is nothing at all stopping you from running off with the money.
I'm not sure what the process would be, but yeah, I'd be steering clear.

Also, moving this to general, cause it's got nothing to do with the MK6 :)

[kao7ik]

the way i did it was, the seller contacts their financial company and gets an invoice for the balance to be paid out. Buyer then gets a bank cheque for that amount. Both buyer and seller meet at the finance company and make copies of the invoice and the receipt of the payment. Finance company will print out a written statement saying they will hold no financial interest of the Vehicle ....... bearing VIN number and Engine number ...........and revs will clear. The buyer then pays the seller the remaining amount.

When you purchase a REVS certificate it will tell you the finance company that the vehicle is under to make sure you are paying the right debt off or you can just give them a call and enquire. They wont tell you the finance company but you can confirm with them if the finance company you have been told by the buyer is correct or not

[Corey_R]

the way i did it was, the seller contacts their financial company and gets an invoice for the balance to be paid out. Buyer then gets a bank cheque for that amount. Both buyer and seller meet at the finance company and make copies of the invoice and the receipt of the payment. Finance company will print out a written statement saying they will hold no financial interest of the Vehicle ....... bearing VIN number and Engine number ...........and revs will clear. The buyer then pays the seller the remaining amount.

Thanks for that info kao7ik. Sounds like a sensible option. Last time I came across this, the car was one of several options, so I didn't bother looking into how it was done because it was easier to just go with another option which had no finance on it.

[Dr Block]

Hi All,

Had quite the experience this afternoon selling my car to make way for the new GTI (or R... )

Had this err lovely family from Roselands come inspect the car.

They spent the first half hour telling me about how they couldn't find a car like it anywhere (all manuals and mine auto as one example). Then they spent another half hour telling me how there was repaired damage all over the car - which was bull**** and not true. I took offence to this, even if it were a buyers tactic, and mentioned that I wasn't from Bankstown so they had nothing to worry about. Seeing as they are from that persuasion, they didn't take too kindly to that - fair enough I suppose.

My question though is about the finance on the vehicle. The car's actually in my girls name (even though I pay for it) and I have authority with Esanda to speak on her behalf. I've got the payout for it and so on and will use the proceeds from the sale to pay the car out (with a small shortfall to be covered by myself also). This is the issue. I told them to simply pay me the money directly and ill pay it out along with the shortfall.

I mentioned that after i'd done this, they could do their revs check etc and confirm that the finance was clear. They either didn't understand or perhaps I didn't (I usually pay cash for my cars or have them financed through work). They kept making comments about me taking their money and running (wtf) and that it was illegal for me to accept payment from them if the car is under finance? I am not sure about this.

In the end I simply said to pay Esanda directly and ill pay Esanda directly the difference so that the only money changing hands was the deposit.

I'm not 100% sure how this will work though. Esanda obviously wont give out any details on my partner and I, so when the buyers make out the cheque, do they simply write our account number @ Esanda on the back? Therefore Esanda banks the cheque against my girls account? What's the process from there? Do they wait for the finance payment to clear and then do a revs (for thier own peace of mind) and I hand it over?

Sorry and just finally - when that's done I simply fill out my portion of the Rego changeover section on the back of the old Rego papers?

I had a similar issue when I sold my Lexus to make way for an R36 Wagon. The buyer was a 23 year old kid from Melbourne, who ended up flying up the next day after speaking with me about my car (stayed with friends in Bankstown) Must be something about Bankstown, had the same sort of issues that you did. Showed the guy the payout figure from Esanda and said the same thing that you got,wasn't going to hand over any money for the car in case I did a runner with it. Mind you,he'd been to both my house and my office and had all my contact details! In the end, he payed cash and we both went to my local ANZ where I watched him pay the money in and we both got a receipt for the transaction. Then went back to my office where I contacted Esanda, gave them the transaction number which they verified. I then happily handed over the keys, filled in the rego papers, gave him his copy and sent him on his way back too Melbourne. Hotfooted it down to the RTA to lodge the transfer papers in case he racked up any infringements on the way back to Melbourne. Two weeks after I sold the car to him, he calls me wanting to know why I hadn't told him it had been in an accident (it hadn't been, which was explained to him prior to purchase!) When I asked him why he thought that, he said it was because ''the steering felt funny''!

[elisiX]

This has been an absolute nightmare. These people are ridiculous.

So the following was what the buyer wanted to do (which kinda fell in line with suggestions in this thread about paying @ the bank).

1. Both parties go to ANZ (Esanda is owned by ANZ).

2. Get ANZ to obtain a faxed payout from Esanda on the spot.

3. Make respective payments.

4. Post date 6 days the registration papers.

5. Allow 3-6 days for revs to clear and THEN pickup the car.

So I head to the bank to meet them today with my girl (car is in her name) to make the payment. Expecting to give them a receipt to prove payment and organize registration papers. NOT hand over the car today. My new car comes on Wednesday and this is what was agreed. On the spot they changed their tune and cause a massive issue which I still at this point cannot believe.

Some other sister turns up - some rough bitch from punchbowl and begins to literally yell and start a fight in ANZ - in Neutral Bay mind you. I'm standing there in disbelief and I basically tell them to **** off and stop wasting my time. This is what THEY wanted after all. I made it clear to them that I didn't want to have the car during the Revs clearance period in case anything happens to it but they wanted it this way.

So now this sister says they're taking the car today. I've just driven to Neutral Bay from Broadway, still have **** in the boot etc. It's not ready to hand over. (were in Neutral Bay btw because my girl works there). So them taking the car at the point of making payment was what I wanted initially - but not without any notice. faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaark meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

This Wednesday we are heading back - same time, same place batman. We will make the payment. I will get a copy of their receipt and confirmation from the bank its been paid. NOT confirmation Esanda has received the funds because that wont happen until overnight. I will have them sign a letter advising that from that point forward, they own the vehicle and are responsible for any damage, fines etc.

Technically the car cannot be registered in thier name until the Rev's clear (3-6 days), but I am hoping this letter will clear any doubt as to what has taken place. I've never in my life dealt with such ridiculous and rude people. My girl happened to mention at one point that this situation was 'rubbish'. They're take on that? We called them rubbish or that they were from the rubbish. lol. What the F!. Ill be so glad when this is over.

[Manaz]

Some other sister turns up - some rough bitch from punchbowl and begins to literally yell and start a fight in ANZ - in Neutral Bay mind you.

The fact that this woman (sister? What are you, some american gangster rapper lost down under?) is from Punchbowl, and you're in Neutral Bay is of no consequence, and the fact that you're mentioning these as if they matter is quickly losing you any sympathy you had (and yes, I lived in Neutral Bay at one stage, so I'm not just some bogan westy with a chip on my shoulder about the rich and elite lower north shore yuppies with their noses up their own bums - oh, wait, that's stereotyping, isn't it...).

You're selling an encumbered car. You've put yourself in the position, you need to accept the responsibility for the fact. Given that the buyer is the one taking the risk here, I don't see what your issue is - ask them how they want to handle the sale, if you don't like their terms, don't sell it to them. There are other buyers for you, there are other cars for them. It stinks that they're making a scene and making things more difficult than they need to be, but again, go back to my first sentence in this paragraph...

[STV4SYT]

This is precisely the reason i dont finance anything,

too damn hard.

Hopefully u get it sorted out.

[Rocket36]

You're lucky you've got anyone wanting to buy it. Nobody I know would ever buy an encumbered car. Far too much risk involved...

[elisiX]

The fact that this woman (sister? What are you, some american gangster rapper lost down under?) is from Punchbowl, and you're in Neutral Bay is of no consequence, and the fact that you're mentioning these as if they matter is quickly losing you any sympathy you had (and yes, I lived in Neutral Bay at one stage, so I'm not just some bogan westy with a chip on my shoulder about the rich and elite lower north shore yuppies with their noses up their own bums - oh, wait, that's stereotyping, isn't it...).

You're selling an encumbered car. You've put yourself in the position, you need to accept the responsibility for the fact. Given that the buyer is the one taking the risk here, I don't see what your issue is - ask them how they want to handle the sale, if you don't like their terms, don't sell it to them. There are other buyers for you, there are other cars for them. It stinks that they're making a scene and making things more difficult than they need to be, but again, go back to my first sentence in this paragraph...

Hold on a second mate - I never said I was from Neutral Bay - I said my Mrs works there.

This family are from Punchbowl/Roselands - I grew up in Beverly Hills - so get your facts right.

As for selling an encumbered car, I would hazard a guess that a vast majority of cars sold these days are encumbered.

Now I had planned on actually paying out the balance of the loan before selling the car but things moved quite quickly.

The buyers felt more confident in paying Esanda directly and as such, I honored thier preference.

The issue, if you have actually read what I wrote before mouthing off, is that they changed the arrangement at the last minute.

From the first discussion with them my preference was that the date of payment be the date of delivery.

They wanted otherwise but changed thier tune/minds at the last minute which left me no room to move - hence my frustration.

Dont talk to me about losing sympathy - I didnt come here looking for any. Rather to simply state my experiences for others.

[elisiX]

You're lucky you've got anyone wanting to buy it. Nobody I know would ever buy an encumbered car. Far too much risk involved...

As for this comment - I had a good 12-14 buyers lining up to buy it.

I just happened to make the deal with these guys first even though others offered higher amounts.

Please guys, dont make ridiculous comments without either knowing all the facts or thinking first.

[Rocket36]

Majority of cars encumbered? WTF???? I seriously doubt that. Owing money on a car is ridiculous!

And I'm not talking about leasing here, I'm talking about getting into debt to aquire a depreciating asset. Seriously? WTF????

[elisiX]

Sorry, let me clarify. The majority of newer cars, lets say under 5 years old, would be encumbered in my opinion.

So I am not sure why something like this would surprise you so much - even if you personally dont believe in financing a vehicle.

[Speed]

The fact that this woman (sister? What are you, some american gangster rapper lost down under?) is from Punchbowl,

I took the sister comment literally, thinking that this person was a sister to one of the people buying the car.
I also thought that elisiX was telling the story from what he was experiencing. Sure he could have sugar coated it and been more diplomatic/politically correct but then we wouldn't have the full story and level of anxiety that elisiX was trying to express.

Manaz makes a good point that elisiX is selling an encumbered car and that he put himself in that position.

Rocket36 also makes a good point that it is not wise getting into debt to aquire a depreciating asset.
I personally have never financed the purchase or leasing of a car but what others do with their money is their business.

In my experience it has always been easier and more enjoyable buying a car than selling.

[elisiX]

Generally, yes I agree getting into debt to purchase a car is not a good idea.

However when we purchased the 07 SP23, I still had my 2006 Audi TT (which I owned approx 80% outright).

With 2 mortgages (both very positive), this was a suitable solution for us.

So any comments about it being stupid, not wise and so forth about financing a vehicle in my situation are not needed.

I'm not some 20yo who got himself $50k in the red to buy a car.

[G-rig]

You're lucky you've got anyone wanting to buy it. Nobody I know would ever buy an encumbered car. Far too much risk involved...

It's not that hard or risky, the buyer pays your finance company directly for the encumbered amount via funds transfer with the payout figure for that day. You get the tellers receipt with original stamp and usually if they pay for a fast transfer you can call up your finance provider and verify it's been paid.

Leasing isn't automatically better either. At the end of it you have a car with high km which would depreciate more anyway and you don't own it.

[gerhard]

Majority of cars encumbered? WTF???? I seriously doubt that. Owing money on a car is ridiculous!

And I'm not talking about leasing here, I'm talking about getting into debt to aquire a depreciating asset. Seriously? WTF????

Errmm, I suspect that 80-90% of all new car sales are encumbered, with a large portion of them being salary sacrifice leases.

In the OP's case, it appears that the finance owing was higher than the sale value of the car, hence creating significant extra difficulty with who owns what at a particular moment in the transfer chain of events.

When buying second hand, it's often far more comforting for the buyer if the car is encumbered, since title transfer will then be from a "trusted" source (the financier) rather than the (relatively) "untrusted" source of an individual owner.


I can't see any difference between getting into a lease and getting into debt - they are one and the same with a different label.

[Manaz]

Hold on a second mate - I never said I was from Neutral Bay - I said my Mrs works there.

This family are from Punchbowl/Roselands - I grew up in Beverly Hills - so get your facts right.

As for selling an encumbered car, I would hazard a guess that a vast majority of cars sold these days are encumbered.

Now I had planned on actually paying out the balance of the loan before selling the car but things moved quite quickly.

The buyers felt more confident in paying Esanda directly and as such, I honored thier preference.

The issue, if you have actually read what I wrote before mouthing off, is that they changed the arrangement at the last minute.

From the first discussion with them my preference was that the date of payment be the date of delivery.

They wanted otherwise but changed thier tune/minds at the last minute which left me no room to move - hence my frustration.

Dont talk to me about losing sympathy - I didnt come here looking for any. Rather to simply state my experiences for others.

And I never said you were from Neutral Bay - you perhaps need to read what I said.

And I also acknowledged that the buyer's making things more difficult than they have to.

What I disliked about your post was the the way you indicated that such behaviour wasn't acceptable in Neutral Bay - mate, it's not acceptable anywhere.

[Manaz]

As for this comment - I had a good 12-14 buyers lining up to buy it.

I just happened to make the deal with these guys first even though others offered higher amounts.

Please guys, dont make ridiculous comments without either knowing all the facts or thinking first.

That's 12-14 buyers who were willing to take quite a risk (were they all aware that the car showed as being under finance on a REVS check?) - the finance company with the money owed on the car are well within their rights to repossess the car to clear the debt if they so choose once it's been sold - what they generally do then is sell at auction or to a wholesaler, and you'd be lucky as the buyer of an encumbered car if they got more than what they owed on it and you got any of your money back.

[G-rig]

That's 12-14 buyers who were willing to take quite a risk (were they all aware that the car showed as being under finance on a REVS check?) - the finance company with the money owed on the car are well within their rights to repossess the car to clear the debt if they so choose once it's been sold

That's why if you're the buyer you pay out the persons finance company, you don't give them money to them. The buyer should also do a REVS check on the day of purchase.

There isn't much stopping people giving you a bad bank cheque (or taking the money out of the account straight after) when the car isn't encumbered anyway. At least a bank to bank transfer the money has left the buyers account and is 'held'.

[elisiX]

And I never said you were from Neutral Bay - you perhaps need to read what I said.

And I also acknowledged that the buyer's making things more difficult than they have to.

What I disliked about your post was the the way you indicated that such behaviour wasn't acceptable in Neutral Bay - mate, it's not acceptable anywhere.

Absolutely. It is not acceptable anywhere.

My point was that a family from that part of Sydney, of that particular pursuasion were yelling and fighting in arabic and english in the middle of a middle-upper class neighbourhood bank. ie; they stood out like someone in a santa suit at a funeral. I suppose you might then say that it should stand out no more in that area than in thier own area. Well I grew up around the area they come from and believe me, this is much more common place there than it would be on the northside (of which i've also lived).


That's 12-14 buyers who were willing to take quite a risk (were they all aware that the car showed as being under finance on a REVS check?) - the finance company with the money owed on the car are well within their rights to repossess the car to clear the debt if they so choose once it's been sold - what they generally do then is sell at auction or to a wholesaler, and you'd be lucky as the buyer of an encumbered car if they got more than what they owed on it and you got any of your money back.

I guess they were willing to take the risk. I told them all upfront of the finance outstanding on the vehicle and provided them the nessecary details to request a revs check.

Again, not quite sure why you guys are so upset about there being a vehicle out there with finance outstanding. It's very common.

And again, just in case its clear. It was my preference for the car to be handed over on the day the finance was paid out. Whether they paid it to me or Esanda was my first point of confusion in my original post. However once that was clear, I arranged to visit the bank with the buyer. The issue here simply lies with the buyer being rude, abrupt and basically changing the arrangement at the last minute. I am happy they decided to do things my way, which I asked for initially, but putting me on the spot by changing thier minds, in the middle of the bank when were there to make a simple transaction, with my car full of my **** is not acceptable.

Not acceptable anywhere.

[Rocket36]

Leasing isn't automatically better either. At the end of it you have a car with high km which would depreciate more anyway and you don't own it.

Why do you say you have a car with high km? Most salary sacrificed leases allow you to specify (estimate) the kms you're going to do and you pay FBT accordingly. And at the end of a lease you usually end up with options, like owning, trading up to a new model, paying a residual amount and selling privately for a profit. The point is, at no time do you have a whole lot of money tied up in a depreciating asset that you owe money on. You simply pay for the usage of it AND it's in your name. Peronally financing a loan and paying interest on a car is one of the worst things anyone can do. Second only to not paying off credit card debt in full in the interest free period.


Errmm, I suspect that 80-90% of all new car sales are encumbered, with a large portion of them being salary sacrifice leases.

Yeah... You read my whole post before sticking your foot in your mouth!


And I'm not talking about leasing here, I'm talking about getting into debt to aquire a depreciating asset. Seriously? WTF????

[G-rig]

Why do you say you have a car with high km? Most salary sacrificed leases allow you to specify (estimate) the kms you're going to do and you pay FBT accordingly. And at the end of a lease you usually end up with options, like owning, trading up to a new model, paying a residual amount and selling privately for a profit. The point is, at no time do you have a whole lot of money tied up in a depreciating asset that you owe money on. You simply pay for the usage of it AND it's in your name. Peronally financing a loan and paying interest on a car is one of the worst things anyone can do. Second only to not paying off credit card debt in full in the interest free period.


Everyones situation is different and best to calculate the numbers but the point is the FBT may be too high to work out economically if you don't do enough km (over 25,000km /year seems to be the minimum amount for tax benefits). I weighed it up and the repayments were only different by $200/month - so much for money not tied up in depreciating assets.

[Rocket36]

FBT benefits don't just hinge on km travelled. I had a lease with 15,000km a year and because the cost of the lease lowered my taxable income so considerably, my net position was still better even with a higher FBT amount.

[G-rig]

Yes, but i also found that the type of car and cost of it affects things.. would be better if you didn't have an expensive car and got a ute instead.

Fine if you're doing a lot of business km but don't see the point of spending heaps on fuel driving around for the sake of it like people do who at the end of the year doing interstate trips etc.

Anyway not sure what it's got to do with selling a car.

[kane]

Majority of cars encumbered? WTF???? I seriously doubt that. Owing money on a car is ridiculous!

And I'm not talking about leasing here, I'm talking about getting into debt to aquire a depreciating asset. Seriously? WTF????

yeah until tax time, makes it worth while in the right career.... negates alot of the interest paid, also some people may have better uses for their cash?

i choose to spend more and drive a nice car who cares about interest etc. imagine how bad going out to dinner, smoking, drinking, kids etertainment, electronics, and hobbies would look on a financial statement?

some people have different priorities.... the amount of people i see with ****ty "cash" bought cars who blow 200-300 p/w on drinking and pokies?

[bombsquad21]

Why are you responding to a thread from may? and am I the only one who briefly forgot what an A-grade certified w**ker rocket was/is?
where did he go anyways?

[kane]

Why are you responding to a thread from may? and am I the only one who briefly forgot what an A-grade certified w**ker rocket was/is?
where did he go anyways?

sorry forgot i had searched to find it (went away had a few drinks and came back lol) the post gave me the sh i ts felt the need to reply