what is diesel?

[Red Mk1]

im a bit of a newbie with all this mechanical stuff, so can someone please explain exactly what diesel means? Pros cons etc.

[imported_brackie]

Go to the "Interesting Articles" forum and look at "Vintage brochure...." That's a good staring point. The MK1 diesels were last imported in early 1981. Nothing then until this year with the Golf 5 diesels.

[syncro]

Go to the "Interesting Articles" forum and look at "Vintage brochure...." That's a good staring point. The MK1 diesels were last imported in early 1981. Nothing then until this year with the Golf 5 diesels.

Last Golf 1 diesels were 1980 (VIN 17A) and sold for about $12k.

What about Golf 3 turbo diesels? They were imported around 1996 (?).

[Golf Loon]

The diesel had the most torque, even more than the gti. lots of componants on the diesel were strengthened to cope with the power.
I just hate the way they sound on a cold morning, if it was turbo and ran on biodiesel, I`d be more interested.
They made a few Mk2 diesels in uk and obviously you could fit a Mk3 TDi motor to a MK1.

[imported_brackie]

The diesel had the most torque, even more than the gti. lots of componants on the diesel were strengthened to cope with the power.
I just hate the way they sound on a cold morning, if it was turbo and ran on biodiesel, I`d be more interested.
They made a few Mk2 diesels in uk and obviously you could fit a Mk3 TDi motor to a MK1.
You drive a diesel in a completely different way to a petrol car. The low-down torque makes them pull strongly from low revs, but they run out of "puff" once they get above abut 4000 rpm (unless thet're a turbo!) ...max revs are 5200... This fantastic torque makes them a great town car as they nip around at low revs using thimble-fulls of fuel. My Golf does 50mpg overall with a mixture of hilly country roads and town work. When I lived in the city (in Perth) I drove a 1980 diesel that did 60mpg. Long runs at high revs kill your fuel economy. Recently I drove to Launceston on the Bass Highway (23km country roads and 130km @ 100kph) and she did 45mpg. I did the same distance using country roads an she did 51mpg.
Golf Loon....They didn't need to strengthen much. Crank, block and conrods are the same. Only the driven clutch, head, pistons, front engine plate and timing belt cover are different. It's entirely possible to "dieselise" a petrol motor if you can also get an injection pump and vacuum pump.
I LOVE the way they sound on a cold morning (but then, I also love the smell of napalm!) My aim is to import a turbo engine and 5 speed. Because VAG used essentially the same block for all diesels it's possible to turn a 1.5 into a 1.9. Another project that I have in mind is making my own biodiesel. The guy I bought my Peugeot diesel from ran it on biodiesel and has given me his secrets. We have the Simplot chip factory just down the road from us and I'm hoping to get oil from there.

[Golf Loon]

Brackie said

"You drive a diesel in a completely different way to a petrol car. The low-down torque makes them pull strongly from low revs, but they run out of "puff" once they get above abut 4000 rpm (unless thet're a turbo!) ...max revs are 5200... This fantastic torque makes them a great town car as they nip around at low revs using thimble-fulls of fuel."

What, unlike a petrol golf which would beat everything off the lights and then rev round to 7000+ rpm?
And not use much petrol!

[imported_brackie]

No, it would never be a match for a petrol Golf! 0-100kph in around 10.5 secs against the diesel at 18 secs. But it's useful torque as it means less gear changes and less strain on the motor. And most importantly for an old skinflint like me.....a lot less fuel! (I used to get a pretty constant 35mpg mixed driving out of my petrol Golfs.)

[crazygee]

Man??? i'm worried about u guyz!!...

Mk3 Tdi (turbo diesel intercooled)
Sold 95-97 in Oz!!!!!!!!! Correct me if im wrong around $40g's!!!!!! ;)

[imported_brackie]

Didn't know this, Gee. Must have been a secret kept from Western Australians. I'm 99% sure they weren't sold in Perth. Did see an auto of this vintage for sale on Carsguide website but I assumed it was a personal import. They must be as rare as rocking horse faeces.

[Golf Loon]

Yeah and didn`t they strengthen the driveshafts and use bigger front balljoints also?

[gldgti]

back on the pros and cons, and a little on bio diesel

my litle green monster runs on biodiesel most of the time, and loves it too. it'll run a little quieter, smoother and generally a bit nicer, with more low end power too (with a slight decrease at the top end...)

my '79 1.5 4-speed will get about 40mpg at worst, if theres a lot of huffing and puffing around town and running long distances at 100km/h, (like you said, brackie...)

HOWEVER - long distance runs at 90 - 95 km/h will increase your fuel economy by a LOT. its a trait of the gear ratios and the power curves of the 1.5's it seems, as your peak torque is at 3000rpm, and at 90km/h, it'll rev somewhere close to 3150rpm - barely above peak torque. it seems to be the most economical spot to run at, once you get above that, she's really in rev-mode, where you need a lot more fuel for your increased power... just an interesting point.

60mpg is a fairly easy to achieve economy with the 1.5, and though i've never done it myself, i would say 70mpg is possible too, with a 5-speed gearbox and a nicely running engine (an most important, a patient light footed driver)

Brackie - ive always dreamt/hoped/wished for the 5-speed and a turbo engine to drop into the golf...keep us informed on your developments in your exploits.....

and the 0-100 times? never say never. remember that a mk1 gti (the fastest gti to date, stock) had 110hp. a 1.9 turbo will punch out about 95hp standard, and with about double or more torque....need i say more..?

[gldgti]

and for redmk1....

diesel is cetane based fuel, meaning its supposed to be mostly 16 carbons long hydrocarbon chains (where petrol is meant to be moslty octane, 8 carbons long)

instead of using spark ignition, diesels utilise a trait of straight chain alkanes called compression ignition. it is what all petrol loving people dread, and diesels rely on it. instead of igniting the fuel and air with a spark plug at the right time, diesels compress just the air until it is at extreme pressure (far more than is required to ignite the fuel spontaneously) and THEN spray in the fuel where it instantly ignites.

since internal combustion engines all rely on high compression ratios for economical running, diesels have a huge advantage, with typical compression ratio around 20:1 in a diesel, with a petrol engine usually around 10:1

the mk1 1.5 diesel is at the extreme end of this, with 23.5:1 compression ratio, and most vw tdi engines at about 19.5:1 i think.

this high compression means that the overall mechanical efficiency of the engine is greatly increased over that of a petrol engine. this mixed with the more favourable power distribution in a diesel (where the torque and power curves distribute power evenly throughout the rev range instead of bunched up at the top end like in a petrol engine) make it possible to get fantastic fuel economy through good driving and use of the torque down low.

(as an example, my little 50hp golf will pull up steep inclines in 3rd gear at 40km/h without too much real effort. 3rd gear tops out at 105km/h, so you can see that even though the max power is far less than in a petrol car, you get a lot more useful power where it counts - i mean, who wants a 6 speed trannie with all the gears 500 rpm apart to drive around town in? (anyone in a honda, im talking to you!)

[gldgti]

sorry, also meant to say....

i see plenty of mk4 TDI's around, so i think all they missed with the diesels was the 80 - 95ish period.... :(

[imported_brackie]

Excellent technical stuff! Although probably wasted on the petrol heads. Your description of compression ignition, alkanes and cetane numbers takes me back to my diesel fuel injection certificate courses in the Old Country (many years ago!).
Yeah, the broad torque band is the biggest benefit of diesels, and if you drive within it you'll get the best from them. With a 4 speed, anything above 100kph is just blowing diesel down the exhaust pipe, as it doesn't get time to burn completely before the next cycle begins. Not good for the environment or the bank account. The 5 speed (apparently) gets you over the 100kph mark and lets you burn all of the fuel, but by all accounts you have to drop back to 4th on grades.
Oh, yeah... Diesel engines run at about 30 - 33% efficiency, while petrol engines are at about 27% (these days).
And... I've yet to see a '90s Golf diesel in Oz. Please show me one!

[gldgti]

thats an interseting point about the efficiency %'ges. when you say "(today)" do you mean petrol engines today or petrol and diesels today?

just as a point of conversation, i find it annoying that manufacturers like honda and toyota and the media talk up hybrid vehicles so much, with their average consumption of 4.9l/100km etc as being vastly efficient and environment saving blah blah blah, when i've measured my economy to be 5l/100km many times, and my car is 25 years old.

sure you can argue that it blows black smoke and makes lots of NOx's, but thats only if it runs on petro diesel, not bio diesel, which is much much cleaner, AND totally greenhouse neutral.....

oh ohh, im raving.......

sorry this oughta be in another thread, but anyone wanting to know what is diesel i guess should know the whole glorious picture

aydan

[imported_brackie]

And... I've yet to see a '90s Golf diesel in Oz. Please show me one!
Yeah, OK...I've seen it at "Carsales"!

[Golf Loon]

Thats a good point on manufacturers figures. Cars these days are so heavy that engines have to be more powerful to return the same figures. The Golf grew heavier in each incarnation, filled with electronics and plastic and although the engines were more powerful, the weight offset this. thus cars are actually getting slower. A Light car with the later model more powerful engine would be the way to go. How good would your diesel figures be with a 1.9TDi and an 800kg car?

[imported_brackie]

thats an interseting point about the efficiency %'ges. when you say "(today)" do you mean petrol engines today or petrol and diesels today?

Modern petrol engines are more efficient than they were a few decades ago. You'd probably find that some of our members' Mk1s are too as they have been ported, electronic ignitioned etc. Efficiency is measured in power at the flywheel per unit of fuel energy input.


just as a point of conversation, i find it annoying that manufacturers like honda and toyota and the media talk up hybrid vehicles so much, with their average consumption of 4.9l/100km etc as being vastly efficient and environment saving blah blah blah, when i've measured my economy to be 5l/100km many times, and my car is 25 years old.

There you go... More efficient. I wonder what the consumption of a hybrid would be if they had a diesel engine?!


sure you can argue that it blows black smoke and makes lots of NOx's, but thats only if it runs on petro diesel, not bio diesel, which is much much cleaner, AND totally greenhouse neutral.....

Only blows black smoke if it isn't adjusted properly. Sure, more particulates than a petrol or LPG engine, but not if you burn biodiesel...and, Mr Peugeot and Mr VAG are now installing particulate filters on their new cars. As for oxides of nitrogen, diesels produce a lot less than petrol engines. Oh, and they are more thermally efficient so they produce less net heat.


oh ohh, im raving.......

sorry this oughta be in another thread, but anyone wanting to know what is diesel i guess should know the whole glorious picture

Rave away! Turbo diesels have taken over in more enlightened countries. Whether they will here is another story. I think all it would take would be GMH or Ford to bite the bullet and put one in a Commodore or Falcon and opinion would spin around very quickly. But look how long it took them to make LPG cars! Also, if we can produce biodiesel at a price a fair bit cheaper than petrol, people would sit up and take notice.

[gldgti]

a mk1 with a 1.9 td? well, its all the rage among dieselers in the states and a little bit in the us, as its far easier to come by a 1.9td engine over there.

but to answer your question - if i can get 5l/100km in my 50hp 25 year old diesel, in a car that i have had weighed at 840kg, and the tdi guys on forums claim they can get 5l/100km too, in modern golfs which weigh, what, 1100 kg? then the thought of a 1.9 tdi in my car almost makes the few thousand dollars it would cost to make it happen be worth it.

dare i say.... 4l/100km?

Sharkey, a well known forum user at vwdiesel.net, has built a mk1 diesel hybrid. i dont know about consumption figures, but i'd say they are probably nothing short of astounding....

a turbo diesel commodore? maybe, but i wouldnt drive one :wink:

[imported_brackie]

Yeah, Mr Sharkey's a member of this forum, too. Very knowledgable gentleman.

[Golf Loon]

Calling Sharky. Come on then, tell us your performance figures.

All you diesel blokes know them!

[imported_brackie]

"Diesel is the wave of the future, don't let those petrol guys flick you any poop about compression ignition. Petrol performance is played out and we get to be on the leading edge of diesel performance tuning while achieving awesome fuel economy. Best of all, we can be fueled by clean-burning, renewable Biodiesel. The VW platform enjoys plenty of aftermarket parts for suspension, apperance, and power. Take it to the top!"

Strong words! Better visit his website or PM him for performance figures. Also go to http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/index.php where you will be amazed at what these guys get out of their diesels. Mr Sharkey is heavily involved with this site and you can pick up his posts and visit his pages on EVs etc.

[GoLfMan]

so do bio diesels use re newable fuel??? i wanna run my car on ethanol but it was $2.40 a litre :shock:

[imported_brackie]

Biodiesel is just that! Diesel made for animal or plant oils. Bio=life, so as long as you grow plants or animals and convert free solar energy into chemical energy that can drive a diesel engine, it's renewable. (In truth, crude oil is also made for animal or plant oils but because the organisms lived in the Mesozoic and are long gone, the energy isn't renewable.) So petroleum ("of the rocks") is a finite resource and once it's gone....its gone. Biodiesel, however is not finite. As long as the sun shines and the plants take in carbon dioide and water to convert solar energy into chemical energy it is infinitely renewable. The challenge for our species is to breed plants that can produce more oils than they currently do. If we can do that (without, hopefully getting into GM) then we can run our diesels as long as the sun shines and the rain falls. Oh...And the best thing about biodiesel is that the plants recycle the carbon dioxide and water vapour produced by combustion...so we don't pollute as much as petrol engined cars.

[GoLfMan]

bio diesel, ethanol, hydrogencompressed natural gas are all the ways of the future i think. no longer will we have to rely on one fuel source for the world. if we have more than one fuel source then the demand and strains on any one fuel source will be more evenly spread and easier to handel. :)

[imported_brackie]

No...I'm not a "doom monger"! And yes, I did see the "Mad Max" movies, but ths article is really scary. Lots of reading (took me 2hrs but I read it very carefully) but I can (to the limits of my knowledge) verify the scientific/economic content as being true.
As far as the "Peak Oil" normal distribution curve is concerned, remember that because of the developing third world (particularly China) oil consumption is growing way faster than production, and the downside of the curve will be much steeper. Second page is much larger than first page, but the geopolitical ramifications and the way in which it explains the policies of the Bush administration(s) is revealing. Even if you don't want to read it all, the section on biofuels is a real dampener. I'm going to leave this post here for a couple of days and them move it to "Interesting Articles". Because it will have a "Sticky" there it'll be very interesting to return to it in future years and see how accurate the predictions have been. Some of you may think something like this is a little "heavy" for a car forum, so you can ignore it if you like!

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

[Sharkey]

Hey Guys;

Pretty much everything in this thread is accurate factually. Diesel engines have a natural advantage over petrol partly because they (or most of them, all VW’s anyway) don’t have a throttle plate to restrict the volume of air entering the engine. In a petrol engine, much power is consumed in “pulling loss”, the pistons attempting to pull air past the throttle plate, which during most driving is partly closed. Diesels run the intake wide open, meaning that the piston experiences much less reluctance in pulling in air. This is the reason that diesel engines don’t have any intake vacuum to speak of.

Petrol engines depend on a very narrow range of air-to-fuel ratio, nominally 13-to-1, and the throttle pate is there to regulate the amount to air that will be required to combust the quantity of fuel needed to achieve the level of power required.

Diesel engines run a wide range of A/F ratio, as low as 200:1 at idle and approximately 20:1 at WOT. This is possible because instead of attempting to ignite the A/F mixture with a spark plug (requiring the 13:1 A/F), the fuel is atomized into the cylinder at TDC in a timed injection window. The extreme heat generated by the high compression ratio (23:1 in IDI diesels) is above the flash point of the fuel, it has no choice but to ignite and burn.

The rattly/knocking that you hear in the diesel is the result of the cylinder peak pressure at ignition. In the newer TDI engines, a two-stage injector is used to minimize the peak pressure and lessen the noise.

About my diesel hybrid:

I had very high hopes that the electric Golf when coupled with the diesel pusher trailer would get astounding fuel economy. The reality is that I get about what you’d expect from a petrol Golf, 25-30 MPG (convert to Km/l yourself). This isn’t all that awful of you consider that I’m hauling around two aerodynamically-challenged auto bodies, with two transaxles (one an automatic transmission), six tires on the road, and a total weight of around 2000Kg. The economy is about what you’d expect from a diesel vehicle of this weight, maybe a little better. The EV/Pusher combo does follow the hybrid model, with electric/ICE drives complementing each other under various driving conditions.

A diesel hybrid may not give as much benefit as a petrol hybrid because the torque specifications of electric/petrol are better. The petrol engines don’t have as much low end torque, which the electric drive makes up for. Diesel hybrids have two drive systems with lots of low end torque, so the benefits aren’t as complementary,

Also, petrol hybrids are putting a tiny ICE in the car and making up for its inadequacies when more power is needed with the electric drive. A petrol engine run at WOT is actually most efficient as the throttle plate is not as much of a factor in efficiency, so a small engine running flat out will give the best mileage., but not have enough power for passing and hills.

A diesel running flat-out is about the same efficiency as one running at a lower “throttle” setting (being asked to produce less power), so putting a tiny diesel in a hybrid doesn’t give any better efficiency than putting in one that can produce all the power the vehicle needs, but not calling for it unless needed.

Finally, yes, I agree, the petrol “Hybrids” are a crock of goat dung. Not all that much better mileage, ~and~ you can’t fuel them with 100% renewable fuel. You can’t even plug most of them in to charge the batteries; all of the power comes from the petrol. That’s not a hybrid. “Hybrid” means “powered by more than one source of fuel”. At least my hybrid meets those criteria!

I don’t get on here much (oh, no, another forum to follow), but I’ll try to frequent more in the future.

[Golf Loon]

That Hybrid thing is mad. I bet you get some stares dragging that around.

[gldgti]

I guess the other option is diesel electric......thats anoter story.

i wanted to input a small comment on oil production - as was mentioned further up the page.

renewable oil production is the biggest factor keeping bio diesel from becoming the next crude i guess, because you need so much land to produce oil from crops like canola or oil palms, olives, cottonseed etc etc etc.

one producer of oils that is seldom mentioned is algae, notably decendants of the algae that made oil millions of years ago.

some algaes when grown in a controlled, farmed environment have been shown to be up tp 90% oil. whats more, many of these algaes will grow in lukewarm, salty water, under plastic in direct sun, with some osurce of nitrogen (sewerage) in the water..... see where i'm heading?

a place like australia, with plenty of sunshine, flat land, and a sewerage supplying civilization, would be an ideal place to grow some of these algaes, which can produce 60-70 times the oil per unit area than a crop like canola.

there is research being done in this area, and i'm certainly no expert in it. my dad is very interested in it, so thats where most of this info has come from, but you guys should know this stuff - you never know when youm ight be offered shares in a struggling company that says they want to grow algae on our sewerage.... :wink:

[imported_brackie]

Yeah, the majority of crude oil deposits are algaeic in origin. The algae accumlated, were heated and forced to give up their oil, which then migrated through porous rocks until it was trapped by some structure. Modern marine algae are very similar (in some cases identical) to their ancestors and have the potential (as you say) to produce useful amounts of oil. The problem, however, is the scale at which this must happen to make it economically viable. Mesozoic oil deposits were formed in vast areas of sea water over millions of years. Most planktonic algae are pelaegic (they live in the photic zone near the sea's surface) so you would need salt lakes on a gigantic scale to produce enough oil to replace a country's diesel consumption. Not that this couldn't be done, but the shallow water would have an enormous amount of evaporation, so the lakes would have to be near the ocean in order to replenish them. The addition of nitrogenous waste would have to be very carefully controlled as it may eutrophy the water to the point where blue-green algae (cyanobacteria) would take over.

Overall, an excellent idea! (I've been out of Geology for a while so my memory may have failed me as I wrote the above. Other scientists...please feel free to correct me!)

[smithy010]

This forum is right up my alley, I have just done my first small batch of biodiesel. Working on a single tank biodiesel processor, so once i have it perfected and tested (in a mates cruiser), i will be looking for a diesel for my little yellow mk1.
I'll start pushing for some info when it comes closer to the date when i want to give her a heart transplant.

[16valvertwin45s]

Sorry for hijacking this post slightly, but me being a pom and not completely comprehending aussie thinking
Why are diesels so unpopular here?Every 2nd car in england is a turbo diesel long gone are the days when your diesel family sedan sounded and performed like a truck.
Also, in all the time I've been a Golfwagon fanatic I've never heard of a swallowtail before??? apparently its a mk 1,but how ,why and where :oops:

[syncro]

Why are diesels so unpopular here?

Diesel is more expensive that petrol here.

Diesel cars are more expensive. Can take 20 years to get your money back.

We have hills.



Also, in all the time I've been a Golfwagon fanatic I've never heard of a swallowtail before??? apparently its a mk 1,but how ,why and where :oops:

I've never heard of them either! I thought it was a pommy thing :?:


.

[gldgti]

swallowtail.. the mystery to 50% of golfers, and so friggin obvious to the other 50% they never bother to explain... i dont know either

diesels are unpopular in australia because aussies are very narrow minded folk, generally not willing to change they're ways or take to something new. we are also incredibly predjudiced against the unfamiliar.... sad isnt it?

[16valvertwin45s]

diesels not more expensive here
fuel in general is cheaper here as is everything else
inthe uk diesel is more expensive than petrol and at the mo petrol is approx $2-60 a litre!!
so god knows the price of diesel
and without meaning to sound offhand "syncro" Isaid England not holland the UK is pretty hilly even if its not quite as mountainous as france,austria,germany,switzerland and the other alpine countries where diesel cars are even more popular than the UK :wink:

[gldgti]

post hijack in progress... sorry brackie couldnt find the "users online" area of the screen....

16valvertwin45's... your in newy... whereabouts and whats your golf look like... can mollins and i come and see it?

[Golf Loon]

You Loons

Swallowtail is a 1975 German Built Golf, registered in Oz, early 1976.

They are extinct amost everywhere else, as they are so old. They have a different rear panel. Thats the major difference. There are a few others, but thats the most obvious.

See this pic, thanks dubstar

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2005/09/Photos073-1.jpg

Now go and look at the back of your Golfs. The line on your cars is straight under the lights, whilst the swallowtails curved up more, like a swallows tail.

2 Door swallowtails are quite sought after in the UK and other countries. And pretty rare here too.

Hope that helps. 8)

When I was in the UK, diesel was half as much as petrol, what happened?

[16valvertwin45s]

Too many "DISEASELS" sold so the government took the "initiative" and increased the the price :evil:

ahhh! thank god for progress :wink:

[syncro]

You Loons

Swallowtail is a 1975 German Built Golf, registered in Oz, early 1976.



I've never seen a '75 here except a private import 1500.

Apparently LNC brought in a few (less than ten) for testing purposes. They came in German colours, mars red, etc.

[imported_brackie]

As for diesels becoming more popular in Oz, yes, the turning point is here now that we have Eurodiesel. I hope that particulate filtration is as effective in the long term as we hope that it will be (Catalyst Thurs. 4th of May). Price of diesel here in Tassie is ~$1.50 per L. Unleaded petrol is cheaper. Premium unleaded is usually about the same price as diesel her in Tassie.

Quote from a French car forum...Submitted by Pug 307

"There are three key reasons why Diesel hasn't taken off in Australia, in my opinion.

1. Lack of general public awareness of current Diesel benefits and product.

2. Lack of mainstream Diesel product.

3. Weak economic incentives to take up diesel.

Fuel Cost: Diesel can be up to 20c more per litre than standard ULP, up to 15c more than premium unleaded (95RON) - this has been growing in recent times. This is unlike many places in Europe where the price differential is negligible or in favour of diesel.

No Registration Incentives: Registration costs for cars are not linked to C02 emissions, thereby removing another economic carrot present in Europe, but not in Australia.

Purchase Premium: $4000 for a Citroën C4. $3300-4500 for a Peugeot 307. $7050 for a Audi A4 and so forth.

When you factor in higher cost of fuel per litre, higher purchase cost, no registration incentives, it's hard to make a purely economic argument for a diesel in Australia, especially considering the average mileage per car in Australia is now less than 15,000 km per year. You have to place a value on the driving characteristics of a diesel. Having said that, the marketers at various marques in Australia know how to seduce people with lower fuel consumption, because people aren't exactly rational with these kind of things

Lets take a 307 for example - XS 1.6 16V vs XS 1.6 HDi.

On the combined fuel consumption cycle.

Diesel fuel consumption: 4.9l/100km
Petrol fuel consumption: 7.4l/100km

Over 15,000km, the diesel uses 735 litres, whilst the petrol uses 1110 litres - another 375 litres.

Today's petrol prices (from the Shell website)

Unleaded - $1.309
Diesel - $1.485
Inferred price of 95RON - $1.369 - diesel premium 12c/l

Diesel Cost: $1091.48
Petrol Cost: $1519.59
Diesel Saving: $428.11
Diesel Purchase Premium: $4500.
Doesn't sound so good now?

But wait, there's more.

Because a diesel costs more, there are interest charges to consider/foregone return on investment opportunity costs to factor in too. Assume a car loan rate of about 9%

That $4500 premium to buy a diesel 307 now costs an extra $360 in interest costs per year.

So that $428.11 saving shrinks to $68 a year. I'm not convinced about any significant advantage that diesel has over petrol in resale for a 307 either. Looking at Redbook's lower bound for the trade in price, on a 2002 307 XS, you will lose $18,190 for the HDi, vs $15,790 for the petrol 1.6 16V over 4 years.

Paying $4500 to save $68 a year?"

He researched that well and presented a compelling case not to buy diesel.

Yes, here in Oz it's difficult to justify the additional expense of buying a new diesel. I came very close to buying a demo Golf 5 1.9Tdi last year. The price differential between the demo diesel and a petrol example had narrowed considerably and would continue to do so over the years. Where the diesel begins to gain ground is in the longevity of the engine. A properly maintained diesel will outlast a petrol equivalent by at least 100%, so as the years go by the diesel becomes more valuable.

As for fuel prices, I think the Europeans are suffering the same pain as we are. Base fuel prices are decided by supply and demand on a global basis. China and India are heavily dieselized and account for an increasing proportion of diesel consumption. This is what is pushing up the world price and all western countries are suffering for it. Until recently the cost of diesel was less than the cost of petrol simply because it comes off at a lower point in the cracking process, but now world economic forces have canceled that advantage out.

Hang on to your hats, guys....This is just the beginning. As demand increases and supply (from both the oil fields and more importantly the refineries) stays the same or diminishes petrol and diesel prices will continue to rise. Globalisation :!:

Taxation. On every litre of diesel (say @ ~$1.50) the Feds take 38 cents in excise and 15 cents in GST. Commercial and off-road users of diesel get this back so that helps. (What doesn't help is that then the ATO adds the excise rebate to your income and then taxes you on it ) So at company tax rates you get hit at 30 cents in the $ tax and the 38 cents excise rebate becomes ~26 cents. The $1.50 per litre diesel will actually cost $1.09. In many European countries I understand that there is some tax relief on diesel at the pump so it's for ALL users. Why not here?
Disclaimer...I'm not an accountant so my numbers may not close.

Hills.
Syncro.. I'm afraid your comment about diesels and hills is no longer valid. Sure, my 1.5 struggles but I test drove that 1.9 TDI up some of the steepest hills in Launceston and it flew up them. There is so much torque that petrol engined cars just couldn't keep up. I suggest you take one for a drive...you'll be amazed.

Sorry to be so long winded on this guys but the diesel vs petrol debate will never go to sleep. The bottom line is you either love them or hate them. I love them.

[imported_brackie]

Working on a single tank biodiesel processor.

What's that, Smithy??? Are you going for straight veggie oil? I'm working on a twin veggie oil conversion so I can run on poppy seed oil @70 cents per litre.

[16valvertwin45s]

Phew :!: :!: :!:

[syncro]

Hills.
Syncro.. I'm afraid your comment about diesels and hills is no longer valid. Sure, my 1.5 struggles but I test drove that 1.9 TDI up some of the steepest hills in Launceston and it flew up them. There is so much torque that petrol engined cars just couldn't keep up. I suggest you take one for a drive...you'll be amazed.

Sorry to be so long winded on this guys but the diesel vs petrol debate will never go to sleep. The bottom line is you either love them or hate them. I love them.

Yes, I am talking about perception. The 1500 and most of the other diesels of that era were gutless. Reliability and repair costs were also a problem. Short trips really killed them!

By the way, I'm a diesel fan and would love to have a 1.9 in my Transporter. I ordered a new GLD in '78, but after waiting six months it didn't arrive. I worked out the economics as the diesel cost $400 more than the petrol at the time, I would have to keep the car 5 years to get my money back using 50% less fuel.

[Golf Loon]

You Loons

Swallowtail is a 1975 German Built Golf, registered in Oz, early 1976.



I've never seen a '75 here except a private import 1500.

Apparently LNC brought in a few (less than ten) for testing purposes. They came in German colours, mars red, etc.

Yeah but the first batch of 1976 cars are really 1975s with the different rear beaver panel. Gotta love the RTA. Still I suppose they did arrive in Oz in 76, its just that they were made 6 months befor in Germany. I have owned several swallowtails and they were all pre april 76s.

[syncro]

If they were made after August '75, they were '76s. Don't read anything into the compliance place, just read the chassis number. We had a model change here around May '76 (and lost a few horsepower as well).

Maybe we had swallowtails later than Germany?

Golfs went on sale here in Feb '76.

[peter_j_g]

Another factor in the petrol vs diesel equation is the annual tax. In Australia there is no difference in the annual registration fee between petrol & diesel cars. In most european countries there is an extra annual tax on diesel vehicles. For example I pay an extra 560 euro per year on a 99 passat tdi wagon, compared to a petrol passat wagon. The prices at the pumps are 1.05 euro per litre for diesel, 1.35 euro per litre for 95 octane petrol.

Crunching the numbers, if you do more than around 15,000km per year here it's better to have a diesel. Also diesels have a much stronger resale here. About 30% of all new car sales are diesel, around 50% for VW/Audi.

By the way you can buy biodiesel in Australia, the price is $1.27 per litre. Here is the link:

http://www.northcoastbiodiesel.com

In Sydney you can buy it at the BioDiesel station on Marrickville Rd, Marrickville.

[smithy010]

What's that, Smithy??? Are you going for straight veggie oil? I'm working on a twin veggie oil conversion so I can run on poppy seed oil @70 cents per litre.

No Brackie, i'm going to be producing biodiesel in a single reactor tank (instead of a dual tank biodiesel processor). Then the biodiesel just goes straight into the diesel tank and it runs as happy as larry. First i gotta get a diesel tank! (hooked up to a diesel engine, of course).
FYI, if i can get free feedstock oil (used oil from fish&chip shops), i can make the biodiesel for around 35c a litre.[/quote]

[imported_brackie]

I understand. I thought you were going for SVO. Sounds like you know what you're doing but there are traps. My Peugeot ran on biodiesel for over a year (previous owner) and I'm paying the price! I've just had to replace the fuel tank as it had rusted out and was pouring diesel on the ground. The whole fuel system is full of rust and crap. I've changed the fuel filter 3 times and now it's staring to look a little better.

So, just be careful that you make it properly.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/mundy/biogunk.jpg

Above is what came out of the fuel filter.

Oh.. And Peter jg the Pug was running perfectly and starting first time with fuel like this. Maybe that's not the problem with the Red One????

[smithy010]

Sounds like there was water in the biodiesel, or leftover catalyst... i'm going to be very cautious.

[Edison]

My Peugeot ran on biodiesel for over a year (previous owner) and I'm paying the price! I've just had to replace the fuel tank as it had rusted out and was pouring diesel on the ground. The whole fuel system is full of rust and crap. I've changed the fuel filter 3 times and now it's staring to look a little better.


Hi Brackie, yes, water is usually used in many biodiesel making processes, so rust can be expected, if you need a new tank try getting something that won't rust, if you are very thrifty you might consider a thick stainless steel tank that holds maybe 50 litres or so and is about the size of a BEER KEG of course you can't use a beer keg because they are always returnable, and you'd have trouble with plumbing one anyhow, without access to the inside, hoses would need to attatch to a different plate, held on by small threaded bolts with a rubber spacer between the plate and the tank, and thats a lot of bother and of course you can't USE A BEER KEG in the boot for biodiesel and the regular tank for rego inspections and diesel, it'd be too much bother, but if you could find something exactly like a BEER KEG but not a keg, you'd be right as rain.

[Edison]

Posted: Fri May 27, 2005

I hope noone minds me diggin up an old one, though I think it might be useful for newbies like me, reading through again...


Post subject: what is diesel?
im a bit of a newbie with all this mechanical stuff, so can someone please explain exactly what diesel means? Pros cons etc.

Diesel is very different to petrol in many ways, some are as follows..
A diesel doesn't use spark plugs to set fire to the fuel/air mixture, instead it uses the nature of heat and gas to ignite it, when you let air out of a baloon or tyre, it's cold because it has just expanded, when you compress it, the opposite happens, it gets hot, thats how a diesel engine ignites the fuel air mix, by compressing it.
As a result the Diesel engine is simple no spark plugs means no leads, distributor, coil, or contacts/magnetic pickup. No battery or alternator is needed To keep it running, only to start it. Diesel engines are a lot more tolerant to being hosed down with water.
The Fuel is different and SAFER you can store and handle diesel easier. You can actually safely extinguish a candle flame by pouring diesel fuel over it (so long as it's not Euro winter diesel which is mixed with a little petrol) Diesel won't ignite until it is sprayed(atomised) or damn hot! Thats right throw matches into a puddle of standard diesel to extinguish them it works.
Rudolf Diesel invented the diesel engine to run on things like coal dust over 100 or so years ago, it runs on a wide range of fuels. Vegetable oils instead of mineral oils, thats the point, it was always meant to be an alternative to petrol. Diesel you buy at the servo is the oil companies invention, derived from oil, and can be temporarily set at a low price when too many people get veggie oil fever,(similar to monkeypox) and switch from petrol. When the fever has subsided because of the cheap petro-diesel, the price returns to normal.
Diesel engines have greater torque that is they climb hills at low engine revs and love it, petro-engines die (yes die!!! petro engines die!!!)
Diesel engines are built HEAVY and tough because the compression they use to ignite the fuel is 20ish-to-1, higher than the 7ish-to-1 used in p-engines for whatever reason...
Diesel engines START VERY DIFFERENTLY a petrol engine cranks and if everything is ok it goes, a diesel can crank happily at what sounds like a gleeful rate, and everything else is ok, and she won't start. The Secret to starting a diesel above all else, and lean close to your computer screen as i whisper, because not many people know this and get stuck with it, is cranking speed if you are cranking at 90% you'll be there all morning! Get the right battery with high CCA(cold cranking amps) good thick electrical leads, and when all else fails, TOW STARTING FIXES EVERYTHING such as sooted up glow plugs that are now insulated by soot and won't work, even though they are OK.

[gldgti]

thanks to Edison for putting some more diesel propoganda out there... and to you brackie...

on the question of bio-fuels.... wash your biodiesel! YES! in WATER!... whats this? aydans gone totally mad.....


...no he hasnt.

biodiesel, when made from WVO (waste veggie oil) is a fantastic fuel... i know because dads been running it with 99.999% sucess for a few years now... and every time i go home i put some in the tank too...

anyways... the thing is, biodiesel ususally contains some soap and crud leftover after you let it settle and drain off the clycerine... so if you can afford the time and the effort, chuck in some clean water, give it a good mix, and let it settle again.... this can be repeated a few times...

it results in an incredible clean, beutiful looking fuel, which doesnt leave any crud in your tank/lines at all.. i'd postulate that its cleaner than anything available from the pump... (in more ways than one)

[Edison]

wash your biodiesel! YES! in WATER!
and let it settle again.... this can be repeated a few times...


Ta! and I just want to point out, read up as much as you can also. Its true you wash in water as you state, but there IS a downside to too much washing and agitation, I can't recall precisely what it is... corrosiveness? no idea, read up!!!

[gldgti]

myess...

im not the expert here... dad is...

disclaimer on what i wrote b4.... read up and check everything i said

also....

dad usually does about 3 washes... this takes out all the soap and stuff, gives a clean fuel, lowers gel point and makes for nicer running engine...

[hiho]

Hi all,

Ive just started making biodiesel.

I have washed it once and it looks pretty good. Other than adding additional fuel filters, is there anything else I should do before filling the tank with bidiesel?

Thanks folks
Matt

[Golf Loon]

What a great post. You have almost conviced an oldskool petrol head.
I`d have to have a Turbo Diesel.
Worth thinking of now before all the oil and petrol runs out.

[imported_brackie]

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Mate, you shouldn't have stayed at my place! I can tell you now that I slipped a little bit of diesel in your beer every day :wink: It must have got to your brain! The Loon in a diesel.......