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geojack555
24-11-2009, 05:17 PM
Hi,

I was totally frustrated by VW customer service today as they were very slow in getting me updates on my car which is at a VW dealer waiting to get fixed. The car was towed on last friday and they didn't have proper info on any updates on my car or what is happening with it. I had to call & chase the dealer/service centre to know what is happening with the car and even had to update the customer service with the lastest update! What a pity. They are replacing my DSG unit, but they reckon it will take more than a week to get it to the dealer (this is also an approx and no one knows the actual ETA). I requested for a loan car and they cant even provide one.....So I have to live with out a car for next 1-2 weeks.. I didnt expect VW to get me such a crap service. My car is just 5 months old and had 3 major issues (1 brake failure, 2 issues with DSG). Seems like I got a prototype or beta version of 118TSI!

Brendan_A
24-11-2009, 05:31 PM
Man that sucks!! Isn't there laws about Lemon cars??

mickofoz
24-11-2009, 05:54 PM
As a new car owner you should get a free loan car. Go back and insist on one. As for the timing, once you have your loan car, who cares as long as it gets fixed. Take a breather and enjoy life and don't get hung up over issues you can't control.

Corey_R
24-11-2009, 07:35 PM
Yeah - if they can't provide you with a loan car, then they should either be paying for a hire car or for taxi receipts. That's just a bit slack really!

Umai Naa!!
24-11-2009, 08:16 PM
VW Customer Service are serial pests.

Ring the dealer, speak to the service manager, and get the information directly.

As for the delay in parts, it can happen. Of the two I've replaced, neither turned up overnight.

geojack555
24-11-2009, 08:17 PM
Guys, also I want to get your opinion about this replacement of my DSG unit. I am bit concerned on this as this is a new car and not 100% sure if dealer fitted DSG will have equal quality (i mean the whole fitting process) as a factory fitted ones. My car is only 5 months old, and DSG transmission being an important part of the car. What do you think?

Tommy
24-11-2009, 08:17 PM
Makes me feel better that I'm not the only one who has experienced this sort of grief. I had two major brake repairs, one DSG replaced and another almost due for replacement. I had to argue like crazy for a loan car which I finally got when they were replacing the first DSG. Such a shame.

MurphyTheElf
24-11-2009, 08:19 PM
Makes me feel better that I'm not the only one who has experienced this sort of grief. I had two major brake repairs, one DSG replaced and another almost due for replacement. I had to argue like crazy for a loan car which I finally got when they were replacing the first DSG. Such a shame.

Tommy, can I ask which dealer you bought from? I'm pretty sure my dealer would come to the party with loan cars, but they have a good reputation and a huge pool of cars from which to supply a loaner.

geojack555
24-11-2009, 08:31 PM
Did it fixed the issue or you still need to get it fixed again? I am going to push VW to get me a new car...i know it sounds bit crazy..but to be honest, I dont have any trust in VW service anymore as they had told me a month before that, they had fixed the issue. It is scary to drive especially when it automatically get to Neutral.

Maverick
24-11-2009, 08:48 PM
Makes me feel better that I'm not the only one who has experienced this sort of grief. I had two major brake repairs, one DSG replaced and another almost due for replacement. I had to argue like crazy for a loan car which I finally got when they were replacing the first DSG. Such a shame.

You had the DSG replaced OR the mechatronics replaced?

Maverick
24-11-2009, 08:49 PM
Guys, also I want to get your opinion about this replacement of my DSG unit. I am bit concerned on this as this is a new car and not 100% sure if dealer fitted DSG will have equal quality (i mean the whole fitting process) as a factory fitted ones. My car is only 5 months old, and DSG transmission being an important part of the car. What do you think?

Are they replacing the DSG or the mechatronics which is a component of the DSG gearbox?

geojack555
24-11-2009, 08:53 PM
As far as I know, the service manager told me that they will be replacing the transmission system (he quoted DSG in his conversation). So I believe it is the whole unit.

sillygogo
24-11-2009, 09:26 PM
Guys, also I want to get your opinion about this replacement of my DSG unit. I am bit concerned on this as this is a new car and not 100% sure if dealer fitted DSG will have equal quality (i mean the whole fitting process) as a factory fitted ones. My car is only 5 months old, and DSG transmission being an important part of the car. What do you think?

I agree, although the service center would take all the care to put it back, however, once its open its not the same. Might be in too tight, or small out of alignment, etc.

Mine window seal was replaced due to some air leak. I later found out that they bend one of the plastic near the door handle when they removed it.

Umai Naa!!
24-11-2009, 09:56 PM
The DSG is not an overly-complicated thing to replace (I've had them out, and on the floor in only two hours). If the workshop manual is followed, the technician can't go wrong.

gregozedobe
25-11-2009, 12:22 AM
wot e said ^

I wouldn't be worried if they are simply replacing the mechatronic or the whole unit. If they were delving inside the casing/s and messing with the gubbins inside I'd be concerned.

geojack555
25-11-2009, 06:35 AM
Anway let me see what VW can do for me. It is really frustrating to see such a replacement with in 5 months. The whole idea of buying a new car is to trouble free for atleast 2-3 years...That is not happening in my case :)

cktsi
25-11-2009, 07:29 AM
I was totally frustrated by VW customer service today as they were very slow in getting me updates on my car which is at a VW dealer waiting to get fixed. The car was towed on last friday and they didn't have proper info on any updates on my car or what is happening with it. I had to call & chase the dealer/service centre to know what is happening with the car and even had to update the customer service with the lastest update! What a pity.

I requested for a loan car and they cant even provide one.....So I have to live with out a car for next 1-2 weeks..

Its unfortunate their updates are so poor. But you know the only one who will really look after you is you. So chase them up. I found i had to chase up a lot.

Some of it is the individual. If they are not so busy or have good work ethic they will call you.

They like to stone wall such requests but see if you can talk to the mechanic.

Another tactic is talk to the service manager as they either will update you personally or get someone to deal with you so they dont have to.

As for the loaner its life but sometimes they get so booked out they genuinely run out of cars. Goes to show how many issues they deal with i suppose. I have heard once or twice then say that a loaner is in the smash repairs :eek:

Sometimes they can do a better job than factory. I had rattle at low rpm that sounded like the exhaust was going to fall off. When they replaced one fuel injector they had to decouple the supercharger and other bits. Since then i get no more exhaust rattle (or whatever it was).

You know your car and will know if they have done a good job pretty quickly. In the same job the blow off valve got damaged and i had a squirrel noise. I got them to fix that and since then no real problems(except for the odd fuel belch)

I had a friend with a mk5 jetta who had dsg replaced and it runs fine. You should be ok. Good luck

Maverick
25-11-2009, 07:30 AM
Anway let me see what VW can do for me. It is really frustrating to see such a replacement with in 5 months. The whole idea of buying a new car is to trouble free for atleast 2-3 years...That is not happening in my case :)

I think you have unrealistic expectations if that's what you believe, many people will have years of trouble free motoring and some will have problems which is unfortunately what you're experiencing.

If the car was trouble free for 3 years for everyone VW wouldn't bother offering a warranty.

Maverick
25-11-2009, 07:48 AM
As for the loaner its life but sometimes they get so booked out they genuinely run out of cars. Goes to show how many issues they deal with i suppose. I have heard once or twice then say that a loaner is in the smash repairs :eek:

By issues I assume that you meant to say "servicing" because that is what the loan cars are used for and they only have limited numbers so they can be booked out 4-6 weeks in advance.

Unless you're a premium brand like Lexus you can't afford to have loan cars sitting around on the off chance that someone who purchased a car from most likely another dealer requires one because their car broke down. VW won't cover the cost of a loan car AFAIK so is the dealer supposed to fund it from their own pocket?

I'd rather keep the cost of the car down and maintain a relationship with the one dealer so hopefully they would help me out if this occurred. But if they didn't and I needed a car I'd just hire one for the period.

geojack555
25-11-2009, 10:15 AM
That shouldnt be the case as they should have atleast one spare car for emergencies, especailly when they take 1-2 weeks to fix something. Just coz of this, I would be spending additional money from my pocket along with paying the EMI for the new car which is waiting to get repaired. So in actual fact, I am paying for the new car for nothing (as i cant use it) and also need to pay extra for my transportation!

cme2c
25-11-2009, 11:07 AM
Guys, also I want to get your opinion about this replacement of my DSG unit. I am bit concerned on this as this is a new car and not 100% sure if dealer fitted DSG will have equal quality (i mean the whole fitting process) as a factory fitted ones. My car is only 5 months old, and DSG transmission being an important part of the car. What do you think?

You have to remember that the guy fitting the transmission in the dealer is a mechanic, whereas in the factory it was put in by a factory worker.

On loan cars, my solicitor has a Mercedes. They gave her a loan car for 2 months. I don't know whether this says good or bad things about Mercedes.

Over the years I have found attitudes to loan cars have tightened up a lot. In the 80s I was in SA and had a Volvo 740. The dealer gave me free loan cars. A 740 turbo (lag lag lag BOOST!), a BMW 2002 ( I was one of the few clients that could drive a manual).

Now, you have to book one, and you get charged in my experience at Honda and Peugeot dealers. I use the free shuttle from my local dealer with the VW.

Check on this site for a customer service promise from the aus MD of VW and get stuck into them!

Maverick
25-11-2009, 12:11 PM
That shouldnt be the case as they should have atleast one spare car for emergencies, especailly when they take 1-2 weeks to fix something. Just coz of this, I would be spending additional money from my pocket along with paying the EMI for the new car which is waiting to get repaired. So in actual fact, I am paying for the new car for nothing (as i cant use it) and also need to pay extra for my transportation!

Buy an AUDI or another premium brand if you want a greater chance of a loan car being available if your car fails. There's a reason why you pay an additional 20% for what is essentially a VW and that's for these extra services. Looking at the websites none of the premium brands guarantee a loan car if your car breaks down, all stipulate that they're not responsible for any other costs you incur and Lexus are the only ones who offer a loan car at no cost across all dealers.

If VW aren't going to pay a dealer to have a loan car on standby 24/7 how does the dealer recover the cost? Through selling new cars? And how does he recover the cost when it's a car purchased from another dealer? And if two cars come in the same week?

I don't think it's reasonable to expect a loan car unless you're buying a premium brand where nice waiting rooms and so forth are all part of the service. The local Lexus dealer even has a chef that will cook you up breakfast and lunch whilst you're waiting for a service in the waiting facility that has everything you could want (wi-fi, computers, foxtel and so forth). Of course you pay for this which goes to show you can't have your cake and eat it.

http://www.lexusofbrisbane.com.au/page/Find_your_Dealership/Lexus_of_Brisbane_-_Indooroopilly/

Lexus of Brisbane - Indooroopilly
Dedicated to providing a service like no other for all Lexus owners in South East Queensland, Lexus of Brisbane offers benefits and privileges you would never imagine to experience from a vehicle dealership: gymnasium, parisian arcade, billiard room, lounge and boardroom.

Available for use by members of the Lexus Owners Only Club and their guests, the facilities set a benchmark for customer service, not only in the automotive industry but perhaps for any customer service business.

Indooroopilly Address
Cnr. Moggill & Rennies Rds.
Indooroopilly 4068
PO Box 52, Lutwyche Qld. 4030
Telephone - 1300 LEXUS1 (1300 539 871)
Facsimile - (07) 3327 1778

GYMNASIUM

Complete with top of the range exercise equipment, Lexus of Brisbane has its own gymnasium available for use by Lexus Owners Only Club members. The equipment includes the latest cardio workout machines and a full weights station for a well balanced work out.

Whether waiting for your car to be serviced, detailed, or simply in your spare time, Lexus Owners Only Club members are more than welcome to use the facilities. Televisions are provided in the gym for entertainment whilst working out, and shower facilities are available for cooling off afterwards.

PARISIAN ARCADE

Owners are able to browse in the Parisian Arcade of top line boutique shop windows. Here some of Brisbane's most exclusive boutiques and brands have chosen to exhibit seasonal displays for your pleasure. Browse at your leisure and purchase at your whim. Lexus merchandise is also on display should you wish to select items to enhance your environment as a Lexus owner. While in the Parisian arcade, stop for a well deserved coffee and cake from our in-house complimentary café.

LEXUS LOUNGE

For exclusive use by Lexus Owners Only Club members, our lounge offers a quiet place for you to simply relax and conduct your business. A reclining leather massage chair awaits your arrival where you can have a refreshment and catch up on the latest magazines and finance papers from around the world.

The Lexus Lounge also includes luxuries such as a large screen television and high fidelity DVD equipment for your relaxation and enjoyment. For the relentless business person, a dedicated business centre with on-line work stations, complete with telecommunication and computer support, is available to ensure that business continues uninterrupted for Club members whilst vehicle services are carried out.

BOARDROOM

We have incorporated a state of the art boardroom at Lexus of Brisbane for use at any time by Lexus Owners Only Club members, their guests and associates. This facility offers the latest in audio visual equipment including roof mounted data projection units and a boardroom table that seats sixteen people in comfort. Complimentary parking is available for all your guests.

Corey_R
25-11-2009, 12:56 PM
Jesus man... those dealer facilities at Lexus are MORE EXCITING than their cars! ;)

Maverick
25-11-2009, 01:58 PM
Jesus man... those dealer facilities at Lexus are MORE EXCITING than their cars! ;)

I like the idea of free meals cooked by the chef! You'd be tempted to take a day off work, bring in a blueray movie and spend the morning after breakfast watching a movie, have lunch and take the loan car out and come back for afternoon tea before getting reamed for the oil change :eek:

geojack555
25-11-2009, 02:59 PM
Buy an AUDI or another premium brand if you want a greater chance of a loan car being available if your car fails. There's a reason why you pay an additional 20% for what is essentially a VW and that's for these extra services. Looking at the websites none of the premium brands guarantee a loan car if your car breaks down, all stipulate that they're not responsible for any other costs you incur and Lexus are the only ones who offer a loan car at no cost across all dealers.

If VW aren't going to pay a dealer to have a loan car on standby 24/7 how does the dealer recover the cost? Through selling new cars? And how does he recover the cost when it's a car purchased from another dealer? And if two cars come in the same week?

I don't think it's reasonable to expect a loan car unless you're buying a premium brand where nice waiting rooms and so forth are all part of the service. The local Lexus dealer even has a chef that will cook you up breakfast and lunch whilst you're waiting for a service in the waiting facility that has everything you could want (wi-fi, computers, foxtel and so forth). Of course you pay for this which goes to show you can't have your cake and eat it.

http://www.lexusofbrisbane.com.au/page/Find_your_Dealership/Lexus_of_Brisbane_-_Indooroopilly/

Lexus of Brisbane - Indooroopilly
Dedicated to providing a service like no other for all Lexus owners in South East Queensland, Lexus of Brisbane offers benefits and privileges you would never imagine to experience from a vehicle dealership: gymnasium, parisian arcade, billiard room, lounge and boardroom.

Available for use by members of the Lexus Owners Only Club and their guests, the facilities set a benchmark for customer service, not only in the automotive industry but perhaps for any customer service business.

Indooroopilly Address
Cnr. Moggill & Rennies Rds.
Indooroopilly 4068
PO Box 52, Lutwyche Qld. 4030
Telephone - 1300 LEXUS1 (1300 539 871)
Facsimile - (07) 3327 1778

GYMNASIUM

Complete with top of the range exercise equipment, Lexus of Brisbane has its own gymnasium available for use by Lexus Owners Only Club members. The equipment includes the latest cardio workout machines and a full weights station for a well balanced work out.

Whether waiting for your car to be serviced, detailed, or simply in your spare time, Lexus Owners Only Club members are more than welcome to use the facilities. Televisions are provided in the gym for entertainment whilst working out, and shower facilities are available for cooling off afterwards.

PARISIAN ARCADE

Owners are able to browse in the Parisian Arcade of top line boutique shop windows. Here some of Brisbane's most exclusive boutiques and brands have chosen to exhibit seasonal displays for your pleasure. Browse at your leisure and purchase at your whim. Lexus merchandise is also on display should you wish to select items to enhance your environment as a Lexus owner. While in the Parisian arcade, stop for a well deserved coffee and cake from our in-house complimentary café.

LEXUS LOUNGE

For exclusive use by Lexus Owners Only Club members, our lounge offers a quiet place for you to simply relax and conduct your business. A reclining leather massage chair awaits your arrival where you can have a refreshment and catch up on the latest magazines and finance papers from around the world.

The Lexus Lounge also includes luxuries such as a large screen television and high fidelity DVD equipment for your relaxation and enjoyment. For the relentless business person, a dedicated business centre with on-line work stations, complete with telecommunication and computer support, is available to ensure that business continues uninterrupted for Club members whilst vehicle services are carried out.

BOARDROOM

We have incorporated a state of the art boardroom at Lexus of Brisbane for use at any time by Lexus Owners Only Club members, their guests and associates. This facility offers the latest in audio visual equipment including roof mounted data projection units and a boardroom table that seats sixteen people in comfort. Complimentary parking is available for all your guests.

So the moral of the story is either buy Lexus or get two VWs for that price and use one when the other fails!!

Corey_R
25-11-2009, 04:14 PM
So the moral of the story is either buy Lexus or get two VWs for that price and use one when the other fails!!

I think the moral of the story is that all manufacturers have issues. It's why you have a warranty. Although most people never have issues, some do. Whether you buy Euro, Jap, American/Australia, or Korea/Worse. It sucks that you're one of the unlucky ones with your VW, and I understand your frustration with the service, but hang in there, don't annoy them too much, and hopefully this will all be resolved soon and you will then be able to enjoy your purchase.

geojack555
25-11-2009, 05:02 PM
After couple of days with heated conversation, VW finally promised to get me a loan car today. They are sending a company car to the dealer, where my car is been serviced and will be handing over to me tomorrow. However, they don't have any ETA on when the part would arrive or will get it fixed.

brad
25-11-2009, 05:22 PM
That shouldnt be the case as they should have atleast one spare car for emergencies, especailly when they take 1-2 weeks to fix something. Just coz of this, I would be spending additional money from my pocket along with paying the EMI for the new car which is waiting to get repaired. So in actual fact, I am paying for the new car for nothing (as i cant use it) and also need to pay extra for my transportation!
But the moment you put aside a car for an emergency - an emergency will happen. Then you put aside another car & another emergency happens.

When the fuel pressure regulator went on my Skoda I was happy to take a used car of the lot as long as it was roadworthy. Big dealership though - probably 1000 cars on their lot.

geojack555
26-11-2009, 03:35 PM
Finally got a loan car. Thanks to VW.. They also got me the ETA for the DSG box- approx 6- 7 days and around 2 days to fit. So hopefully I think I will be getting my car fixed in couple of weeks :)

cme2c
26-11-2009, 04:33 PM
Good news :banana:

Umai Naa!!
26-11-2009, 07:49 PM
Long parts ETAs are normal.

We currently have a customer waiting til the end of December for a low pressure air conditioning hose from the compressor to the condensor. It's completely out of our hands, and believe me, we've tried pulling all possible strings with VW, as well as ringing all the bigger dealers to see if they had one. Obviously, VW are waiting for the next batch of them to come through from the manufacturer.

Two days to fit a DSG is a bit of a stretch, but then again there's no harm in being that extra bit thorough.

Tommy
28-11-2009, 01:05 PM
Tommy, can I ask which dealer you bought from? I'm pretty sure my dealer would come to the party with loan cars, but they have a good reputation and a huge pool of cars from which to supply a loaner.

hi there

i bought the car from osborne park volkswagen who refused to help in anyway. wouldn't even respond to emails or phone calls. john hughes ended up doing the work and helped me to get a loan car from VW australia. VW australia threatened to sue me if i contacted them anymore and said they would even involve my employer because i was contacting them during what must be my work hours.

i ended up dumping the car at 3 months of ownership. total and utter lemons these so called world cars of the year...

Tommy
28-11-2009, 01:07 PM
You had the DSG replaced OR the mechatronics replaced?

the whole DSG was replaced. they supposedly took one from a brand new car and stuck it in mine. would have been easier for them to just give me the new car... the second one was failing too after only a couple of weeks. slipping out of gear...scary....

Maverick
28-11-2009, 01:14 PM
i bought the car from osborne park volkswagen who refused to help in anyway. wouldn't even respond to emails or phone calls. john hughes ended up doing the work and helped me to get a loan car from VW australia. VW australia threatened to sue me if i contacted them anymore and said they would even involve my employer because i was contacting them during what must be my work hours.

Unless you were making threats and ranting and raving Volkswagen wouldn't have made threats to sue you and to contact your employer.

Volkswagen aren't going to go out of their way to help anyone in that situation and treating the staff with some respect goes a long way.


i ended up dumping the car at 3 months of ownership. total and utter lemons these so called world cars of the year...

They wouldn't be as popular as they and win all these awards if they were all lemons like you're making out. There are always going to be a few that have problems and that's why you have a warranty. Unfortunately you had a car that had a problem with the dsg.

Umai Naa!!
28-11-2009, 01:31 PM
A lot of it comes down to the owner's expectations of what the car should and shouldn't do. The DSG is a very misunderstood piece of gear. Since it's often sold as an 'automatic' people freak out when it goes about doing things that a typical automatic transmisson doesn't do.

I dare say, a lot of DSGs have been replaced for no reason at all.

Brendan_A
28-11-2009, 03:58 PM
the whole DSG was replaced. they supposedly took one from a brand new car and stuck it in mine. would have been easier for them to just give me the new car... the second one was failing too after only a couple of weeks. slipping out of gear...scary....

Do you still own the car? If not can you please stop bagging out VW! I'm sure a lot of others are sick of hearing your story. Just because your car is a lemon doesn't mean all VW are. Go buy a $100,000 car and i bet you'll still have problems.

Umai Naa!!
28-11-2009, 04:20 PM
Agreed.

Last report I read on warranty concerns in the Australian market, had Mercedes Benz out in front by some margin.

Besides, having one particular problem doesn't mean the car is a lemon. By a Daewoo-engineered VE Commodore and tell me how great they aren't.

Dubya
28-11-2009, 04:43 PM
If the car was trouble free for 3 years for everyone VW wouldn't bother offering a warranty.

Wouldn't the warranty a manufacturer is prepared to offer be longer the more reliable the car?

The manufacturer of a really reliable car wouldn't say "Trust me - our cars will be fault free for the first three years!" which would beg the question, they would say "We will rectify any defect in manufacture that occurs within three years." And if they knew their cars would be defect-free for longer, they might even offer a longer warrranty for the competitive advantage such a statement about the reliability of their cars would give them.

Imagine what customers would think, Maverick, if you said "My workmanship is so good I don't guarantee it!"

Dubya
28-11-2009, 04:54 PM
Unless you were making threats and ranting and raving Volkswagen wouldn't have made threats to sue you and to contact your employer.

I cannot think of any circumstances short of outright criminality in which it would not be as reprehensible as it is inappropriate and unprofessional for a company to threaten consequences for a customer's livelihood and, even then, it would be the police and not the employer that should be contacted. I am surprised anyone would condone VGA behaving in this way to a customer who, it is quite understandable, would be prone to getting a little hot under the collar - not that I know that they did.


They wouldn't be as popular as they and win all these awards if they were all lemons like you're making out. There are always going to be a few that have problems and that's why you have a warranty. Unfortunately you had a car that had a problem with the dsg.

Most of the car of the year awards have limited scope to assess reliability, so it is quite possible for a lemon to receive a COTY award, take the Leyland P76 for example, Wheels Magazine's 1973 COTY recipient.

Tommy
28-11-2009, 05:54 PM
I cannot think of any circumstances short of outright criminality in which it would not be as reprehensible as it is inappropriate and unprofessional for a company to threaten consequences for a customer's livelihood and, even then, it would be the police and not the employer that should be contacted. I am surprised anyone would condone VGA behaving in this way to a customer who, it is quite understandable, would be prone to getting a little hot under the collar - not that I know that they did.



Most of the car of the year awards have limited scope to assess reliability, so it is quite possible for a lemon to receive a COTY award, take the Leyland P76 for example, Wheels Magazine's 1973 COTY recipient.

quite simply i was trying to get some answers about what was happening to my car. it got to the point where I was begging them to replace the car. It had more than $30 000 of repairs done to it in the space of a couple of months. it was hard to live with. at no point in time was i abusive, even after their customer service people sent me the very threatening email. their customer service, or lackof, was disgusting... this was my third VW and I guess i felt i was entitled to better treatment...

Maverick
28-11-2009, 06:03 PM
Wouldn't the warranty a manufacturer is prepared to offer be longer the more reliable the car?

Explain Hyundai's and Mitsubishi's warranties than! (referring to the 380 in particular).

These brands increased their warranties to increase the publics perception of them being rubbish.

As far as looking at warranty claims across manufacturers it's actually pointless as a Hyundai with really basic features and an owner that only uses it get from A to B is going to have minimal warranty claims. On the other hand a complex car like the Volkswagen and with generally owners who have higher expectations will have more warranty claims.


The manufacturer of a really reliable car wouldn't say "Trust me - our cars will be fault free for the first three years!" which would beg the question, they would say "We will rectify any defect in manufacture that occurs within three years." And if they knew their cars would be defect-free for longer, they might even offer a longer warrranty for the competitive advantage such a statement about the reliability of their cars would give them.

I don't see Hyundai making inroads with customers who can think for themselves and the 380 suffered from such poor sales nothing could save it.

There's a cost to the manufacturer for warranties and would a 5 year warranty really sell more GTI's or would it just drive up the cost? VW offer a 3 year extension at a low cost and if you consider it's via an insurance company (for around $1400 for the GTI) and assuming $200 profit for the dealer, $300 for the Insurance Company and $100 for Volkswagen that leaves $800 to pay out. So if the average claim in years 4, 5 and 6 for GTI's of which over half are DSG equipped it shows that the car is pretty damn reliable.


Imagine what customers would think, Maverick, if you said "My workmanship is so good I don't guarantee it!"

If the workmanship is that good and you have a reputation I'm sure people wouldn't care. BMW and Mercedes only offer 2 year warranties don't they?

Umai Naa!!
28-11-2009, 06:06 PM
I'd hate to break it to you, but there's some borderline-crazy customers out there.

We had one customer that went 'all the way to the top' to have her brake fluid covered under warranty.

Dubya
28-11-2009, 06:33 PM
Explain Hyundai's and Mitsubishi's warranties than! (referring to the 380 in particular).

These brands increased their warranties to increase the publics perception of them being rubbish.

I never said car companies wouldn't have other reasons besides reliability to increase their warranties - I was just pointing out the lack of logic in your statement to the effect that if VWs were so reliable why wouldn't VW offer no warranty, which makes no sense at all.

Anyway, I think you just tried to explain it - - - something about "increasing perception of them being rubbish" - - but I know what you mean.

But as you say, there is more than one reason to lengthen the warrranty. And one of them, as I said, is that you have an extremely reliable product. You certainly don't, as you suggested, remove the warranty because you have a particularly reliable product.



I don't see Hyundai making inroads with customers who can think for themselves


So Hyundai owners can't think for themselves? How nice of you to share that with us, especially when your own postings are largely conjecture.


If the workmanship is that good and you have a reputation I'm sure people wouldn't care. BMW and Mercedes only offer 2 year warranties don't they?

You just can't accept the inanity of your comment that there could be a negative correlation between reliability and warranty period or the willingness to offer one.

Maverick
28-11-2009, 06:42 PM
I never said car companies wouldn't have other reasons besides reliability to increase their warranties - I was just pointing out the lack of logic in your statement to the effect that if VWs were so reliable why wouldn't VW offer no warranty, which makes no sense at all.

If the car was so reliable that it wouldn't break down in the first three years they would offer something else like a guarantee or a new car swap if something did occur to back it up. Why offer a warranty if the car is so reliable over other manufacturers? You want to differentiate your product from others.


But as you say, there is more than one reason to lengthen the warrranty. And one of them, as I said, is that you have an extremely reliable product. You certainly don't, as you suggested, remove the warranty because you have a particularly reliable product.

Many view cars like BMW and Mercedes to be reliable and they offer only ~2 years warranty and they were still offering 1 year warranties from memory when others were offering 2 and 3 year ones.


So Hyundai owners can't think for themselves? How nice of you to share that with us, especially when your own postings are largely conjecture.

The people that buy Hyundai's are different to those that buy other manufacturers products, look at the demographics for the different manufacturers. Hyundai is cheap rubbish, you can pick up a second hand corolla that's a few years old for the price of one of their eco boxes and the corolla will be running for many more years.

How many old Hyundai's do you see on the road? How many do you see that after a short period have damage all over them?

Dubya
28-11-2009, 06:43 PM
I'd hate to break it to you, but there's some borderline-crazy customers out there.

We had one customer that went 'all the way to the top' to have her brake fluid covered under warranty.

No doubt. However Maverick, with no direct knowledge of the surrounding circumstances, appeared to condone VGA threatening a customer in a most serious way.

If true, I can think of very few circumstances in which such conduct on VGA's part could not be considered appalling (but probably the act of a low-level customer service person in need of counselling).

When I complained in writing about the apparent lack of snow chains compatible with the GTI, a low level operative in VGA marketing sent a most unsympathetic and somewhat discourteous reply referring to Australian standards, expressing little sympathy for the inconvenience I experienced on a trip to the snowfields.

Umai Naa!!
28-11-2009, 06:45 PM
Car manufacturers have to offer some sort of warranty by law in Australia. Regardless of how reliable they are.

As well all know, warranty is a great marketing tool. It worked well for Hyundai, and Mitsubishi is doing quite well out of it too, these days.

I'm not 100% sure what line of work Maverick is in, but I'm seeing this whole thing from the other side of the workshop roller door.

Maverick
28-11-2009, 06:59 PM
No doubt. However Maverick, with no direct knowledge of the surrounding circumstances, appeared to condone VGA threatening a customer in a most serious way.

I didn't condone it at all.

There are two sides to every story and very limited information has been posted.

If you bothered to read what I wrote it was clear that I was sitting on the fence and not taking "sides".


Unless you were making threats and ranting and raving Volkswagen wouldn't have made threats to sue you and to contact your employer.

Volkswagen aren't going to go out of their way to help anyone in that situation and treating the staff with some respect goes a long way.

Point out where I condoned VGA threatening a customer?


If true, I can think of very few circumstances in which such conduct on VGA's part could not be considered appalling (but probably the act of a low-level customer service person in need of counselling).

You've assumed that it's true based on someone who hasn't posted anything to back up his claims of the threats made (which were via email and could be posted).

Without knowing the facts and both sides of the story because I'm sure there is a hell of a lot more to it than we've been told there is little point in placing blame with anyone.


When I complained in writing about the apparent lack of snow chains compatible with the GTI, a low level operative in VGA marketing sent a most unsympathetic and somewhat discourteous reply referring to Australian standards, expressing little sympathy for the inconvenience I experienced on a trip to the snowfields.

What would you like them to have done?

a) write a letter explaining the facts (as they did) or
b) send around some dancers to deliver the message in song?

http://homepage.mac.com/rykgroff/GASCNY/Enzian-Dancers.gif

Dubya
28-11-2009, 07:01 PM
If the car was so reliable that it wouldn't break down in the first three years they would offer something else like a guarantee ...

But Guarantee / warranty / replacement - - - they're all assurances in the form of contractual obligations a manufacturer might undertake in addition to its statutory obligations and quite inconsistent with your notion of not offering a warranty for a totally reliable product (but now you try and weasel out of your original statement by splitting hairs by raising other comparable assurances such as guarantee etc). How disingenuous can you get?

I've read you never admit when you're wrong, Maverick.

You could have just admitted your comment made no sense, but instead you go on about BMW and Mercedes warranties which have no bearing on the logic or otherwise of your statement that VW might offer no warranty if their car was totally reliable.

Previously you have claimed VAG lost money on every Golf made without direct knowledge or providing any evidence (other than what you read in the press). This is just one more example of how unrelentingly you are when your statements are refuted.

Greg Roles
28-11-2009, 07:49 PM
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/11/topgun-1.jpg

Brendan_A
28-11-2009, 07:50 PM
Nice one!!:cool:

Dubya
28-11-2009, 08:54 PM
I didn't condone it at all.

Point out where I condoned VGA threatening a customer?
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/

You may be infuriating, Mav, but I do appreciate the sense of humour! However, that does not excuse your relentless hair-splitting, issue-shifting, general sophistry and refusal to admit when you might be wrong.

For instance, can you point to a single post where you have conceded you might have been mistaken, let alone were so? Or where having been challenged you have acknowledged the validity of another person's contrary view?

As for not condoning (ie to overlook, disregard, give tacit approval to), one condones a particular behaviour when one says something like, as you did, "VGA would not have threatened to call your employer (and sue you) if you had not ranted and raved or threatened" and then fail to condemn the conduct (of VGA in this case). Instead, you provide an explanation, if not justification, for the threat the OP claims VGA made and which, for the purposes of this discussion, we presume is true, at least from the perspective of the OP.

And if you do not condone VGA's alleged conduct as you say is the case, then you appear to condone, which is tantamount to condoning, as the effect on others is the same as if you really do condone the behaviour of VGA. You see, others cannot tell whether you condone or merely appear to condone (as it is done tacitly) and those who respect your opinion, Maverick, may believe you really do condone such conduct.

Anyway, it is just another case where, instead of clarifying your comment or admitting your mistake, you, in this particular case, deny the obvious and natural inference to be drawn when someone explains away errant behaviour without offering the concomitant opprobrium required to avoid the natural inference being drawn by others.

Maverick
28-11-2009, 08:59 PM
But Guarantee / warranty / replacement - - - they're all assurances in the form of contractual obligations a manufacturer might undertake in addition to its statutory obligations and quite inconsistent with your notion of not offering a warranty for a totally reliable product (but now you try and weasel out of your original statement by splitting hairs by raising other comparable assurances such as guarantee etc). How disingenuous can you get?

A guarantee and a warranty are completely different. You're also thinking of a voluntary warranty which is what a manufacturer offers

The length of the warranty has nothing to do with the quality of a product and nor does having a long warranty give this perception to anyone who does some research.

Miele still only offer 1 years warranty on their products despite their products having a 25 year design life. People still pay a premium price and they don't care that they only have a 1 year warranty as they know they will have many many years of trouble free use.


I've read you never admit when you're wrong, Maverick.

I'm not saying I'm not wrong but you have misunderstood/twisted my comment around and taken it out of context.

Let's look at what you said.


Wouldn't the warranty a manufacturer is prepared to offer be longer the more reliable the car?

The manufacturer of a really reliable car wouldn't say "Trust me - our cars will be fault free for the first three years!" which would beg the question, they would say "We will rectify any defect in manufacture that occurs within three years." And if they knew their cars would be defect-free for longer, they might even offer a longer warrranty for the competitive advantage such a statement about the reliability of their cars would give them.

As I mentioned above Miele offer 1 year warranty and nothing more but constantly are on top of reliability surveys performed by Choice magazine in Australia (and other organisations overseas). This 1 year warranty doesn't affect sales and doesn't change customers perceptions of them as being a top quality product that will last a very long time. They have a reputation that is based on this and people buy from them and pay the premium price over many other alternatives which offer 2,3, 5, 7 and even 10 years warranty.


You could have just admitted your comment made no sense, but instead you go on about BMW and Mercedes warranties which have no bearing on the logic or otherwise of your statement that VW might offer no warranty if their car was totally reliable.

They're entirely relevant just like my Miele example.


Previously you have claimed VAG lost money on every Golf made without direct knowledge or providing any evidence (other than what you read in the press). This is just one more example of how unrelentingly you are when your statements are refuted.

Do you think maybe there was a reason why VW rushed forward the Mark 6 which was not due for another 2 years? Why they used the Mark 5 and made alterations to drop the cost like changing the door design and removing the reskinnable outer skin? That they cut costs and manufacturing times in a big way?

There is a heap of info out there including in VW's own press releases.

This is from businessweek, which you will no doubt claim is inaccurate.

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/aug2006/gb20060822_430027.htm

Volkswagen Still on Shaky Ground
The German auto maker has been touting big turnaround plans, but it still loses money on each car exported to the U.S.

Europe's largest auto maker, Volkswagen (VLKAY), has tantalized investors since 2004 with its bold restructuring plans and robust profit targets for 2008. In anticipation of a vigorous VW revival, the company's stock has doubled over the past two years, to around €61 ($77) a share.

But at headquarters in Wolfsburg, progress toward the company's ambitious goals seemed to be bogging down. Product mistakes, boardroom battles, and labor resistance to job cuts have conspired to undermine the turnaround.

Then suddenly this spring, VW's overhaul ignited. Second-quarter sales took off—even in the tough U.S. market—driving the VW brand group's anemic operating profit up 168.5% from a year earlier, to $763 million. New models helped Volkswagen boost its European market share for the first half of 2006 to 19.2%, up from 18% a year ago and near historic highs.

LOSING PROPOSITION. So, is the much anticipated turnaround at hand? Not quite. With first-half revenues up 14.2%, the $122 billion auto maker is steering in the right direction, but it still faces big challenges. The second-quarter sales vroom isn't sustainable, analysts say, because Volkswagen is at the peak of its yearly product cycle. Worse, the turbocharged profits mask problems that haven't gone away.

The big one: VW is bedeviled by production costs that are twice the level of its competitors. In fact, its costs are so high that the German auto maker still loses money on every car it exports. Last year VW's U.S. losses totaled $1.1 billion. That's roughly $3,500 per car, nearly 33% more than the losses GM suffers per vehicle.

VW's ongoing restructuring will help Volkswagen bring its U.S. losses down to $832 million in 2006, Morgan Stanley analyst Adam Jonas forecasts. But top management concedes that it won't be able to turn a profit in the world's largest auto market for several years. "The problem is not European sales, it's a European cost base applied to North American revenues," says Jonas.

WORK ETHIC. To fix what ails VW, Chief Executive Bernd Pischetsrieder must deliver on a plan to cut 20,000 employees from the company's bloated 100,000-strong German workforce and clinch a vital pact with labor to boost VW's workweek to 35 hours, up from the current 28-hour week, without a pay increase.

As part of a plan to bring VW's pretax profit up to $6.5 billion by 2008 (more than quadruple the $1.4 billion earned in 2004), Pischetsrieder has targeted some $2.6 billion in annual labor cost savings. In addition to shrinking the workforce and lengthening the workweek, his plan also calls for paying lower wages to new hires.

So far, 9,700 VW employees have agreed to an early retirement package and another 2,500 have accepted a voluntary severance package. Pischetsrieder, who is eager to book the 20,000 job cuts by the end of 2006, is now offering workers an "early booking bonus" of $69,000 for agreeing to depart by Sept. 30.

DOWN TO SIZE. That's on top of severance packages running from $50,000 to $250,000. The company also is introducing a pay scheme for new hires that eliminates the 20% premium VW's existing workers currently are paid above the average German auto worker wage.

Volkswagen's labor problems have proven intractable to date, since the state of Lower Saxony still owns 18% of the company's shares and has long sought to protect jobs in the region. But the cuts are essential if VW is to regain competitiveness. Its German factories run at a loss of several hundred million dollars a year.

As Japanese and Korean auto makers ratchet up their drive to sell cars in Europe, VW's traditional 18% to 20% market share will come under heavy assault and is likely to ebb, European auto industry experts warn. "In 15 years, VW's market share in Europe will look dramatically different," says Jonas.

CLOUDY VISION. If Volkswagen starts to cede market share to Asian rivals without getting its costs down sharply, it will end up in the same vicious spiral of red ink, excess capacity, and job cuts that plagues General Motors (GM) and Ford (F). Already, VW's six German factories run at only 60% of capacity—way below a level that ensures profitability, analysts estimate.

"The stock market has recurring visions of a super-competitive Volkswagen. But management is working hard just to maintain its existing position," says Stephen B. Cheetham, an analyst at Sanford C. Bernstein in London.

To restore real competitive muscle, Volkswagen has to prove it can sustain operating margins of 4% to 5% over the long term. It hit 3.3% in 2005, and analysts forecast a 3.6% operating margin this year. But the figures are misleading, since the company has slashed capital expenditure and must invest far more annually to sustain competitive products and factories. "VW's spending level is unsustainably low," says Jonas.

NEWER, CHEAPER. Much is riding on a revamp of VW's flagship compact, the Golf, which is due out in 2008. The fifth-generation version, unveiled in late 2003, was roundly criticized as overengineered, overpriced, and "boring." Analysts believe VW makes no money on the current version of its largest-selling car because it was forced to pack it with extras or reduce the price in order to drive sales.

Production chief Wolfgang Bernhard is now speeding a revamp of the sixth-generation Golf to market, which market researchers say will be priced as much as €1,000 ($1,280) lower than the existing model.

At the same time, Bernhard has warned labor leaders that the next Golf may not even be built in Germany if labor costs cannot be lowered sufficiently. "It's ridiculous not using expensive machinery three days a week," says Patrick Juchemich, analyst at brokerage Oppenheim in Frankfurt. "Bernhard needs to bring the cost level down enough to export profitably to the U.S."

Maverick
28-11-2009, 09:12 PM
As for not condoning (ie to overlook, disregard, give tacit approval to), one condones a particular behaviour when one says something like, as you did, "VGA would not have threatened to call your employer (and sue you) if you had not ranted and raved or threatened" and then fail to condemn the conduct (of VGA in this case). Instead, you provide an explanation, if not justification, for the threat the OP claims VGA made and which, for the purposes of this discussion, we presume is true, at least from the perspective of the OP.

I never condoned anything, I merely said that VGA would not have unless ....

There are two sides to every story and as I said I suspect there is a whole lot more to it. The complainer didn't offer any real information, didn't post the letter and didn't go into any detail.

Clearly for any company to take the steps that VGA is accused of taking it would take more than being polite as the complainer claims to have been.


And if you do not condone VGA's alleged conduct as you say is the case, then you appear to condone, which is tantamount to condoning, as the effect on others is the same as if you really do condone the behaviour of VGA. You see, others cannot tell whether you condone or merely appear to condone (as it is done tacitly) and those who respect your opinion, Maverick, may believe you really do condone such conduct.

Blah blah blah


Anyway, it is just another case where, instead of clarifying your comment or admitting your mistake, you, in this particular case, deny the obvious and natural inference to be drawn when someone explains away errant behaviour without offering the concomitant opprobrium required to avoid the natural inference being drawn by others.

WTF do you think I did earlier when I answered your anal hair splitting post by saying that I was not condoning anything and went into the two sides to every story spiel.

Dubya
28-11-2009, 09:17 PM
If the car was trouble free for 3 years for everyone VW wouldn't bother offering a warranty.

Claiming to have been "misquoted" and taken "out of context" is another of your favourites, isn't it, Maverick?

But above, quote, unquote, is the statement you made and have failed to justify after it has been shown to be so wanting in logic.

And the shortness of warranties offered by manufactures of better-engineered and more reliable products lends no support to your suggestion that VW would offer no warranty at all if their cars had a 0% product failure rate in the first three years.

You said it, and you have said nothing to show VW or any other manufacturer would be so foolish as to withdraw their warranty (or any comparable obligation) if they found their product was 100% reliable.

It simply does not stand to reason and you refuse to admit it.

Par for course, Mav, and just as I and others who've crossed you on this forum have come to expect.

It is as unrewarding as it is frustrating engaging in a debate with you as you consistently change the subject, or miss the point, and never make a concession.

Over and out.

Maverick
28-11-2009, 09:30 PM
Claiming to have been "misquoted" and taken "out of context" is another of your favourites, isn't it, Maverick?

But above, quote, unquote, is the statement you made and have failed to justify after it has been shown to be so wanting in logic.

Once again you've take the comment out of context.

I was responding to a statement that "The whole idea of buying a new car is to trouble free for atleast 2-3 years..."

And my full response was

"I think you have unrealistic expectations if that's what you believe, many people will have years of trouble free motoring and some will have problems which is unfortunately what you're experiencing.

If the car was trouble free for 3 years for everyone VW wouldn't bother offering a warranty."

Read what I wrote, many (not all) will have years of trouble free motoring and some (not all) will have problems. I than said that if the car was trouble free for 3 years (which is impossible for any car and really any product with more than one moving part) that VW wouldn't bother offering a warranty.

You have taken out of context my comments which were directed at the claim that a new car should have no problems.

Dubya
28-11-2009, 09:31 PM
WTF do you think I did earlier when I answered your anal hair splitting post by saying that I was not condoning anything and went into the two sides to every story spiel.

You simply do not get it, do you Mav?

Saying "their are two sides to every story" but then suggesting the OP must have done something bad to make VGA threaten him is hardly admitting YOUR mistake or not taking sides. But it is an attempt to explain VGA's alleged outragreous conduct of threatening a customer with reporting them to their employer.

Consistently, you are a VGA apologist, even telling a poster on this thread to buy an Audi if they want a loan car! How anti-consumer can you get?

VW's should be sufficiently reliable that a loan car is affordable for VGA to provide in such circumstances without affecting unit cost and if not, then the cost of repairs and loan cars should encourage VW to raise their standards. But no, you say the owners of a $50k Golf should not expect a loaner when the trasmission fails inside 6 months.

Hardly Ralph Nader, are you, Mav?

And once again, your last post, Mav, is another example your being unable to engage in a rational debate.

You simply do not get it so there is no point employing logic and reason where you are concerned.

Maverick
28-11-2009, 09:44 PM
You simply do not get it, do you Mav?

Saying "their are two sides to every story" but then suggesting the OP must have done something bad to make VGA threaten him is hardly admitting YOUR mistake or not taking sides. But it is an attempt to explain VGA's alleged outragreous conduct of threatening a customer with reporting them to their employer.

Where is the proof? You have one person posting with little detail, he claims that he never did anything to upset VAG and so forth yet they took the steps to inform him not to contact them again or they could sue him. The whole story sounds like BS. But by all means you believe it was he tells it, until I see some proof I'm sitting on the fence.


Consistently, you are a VGA apologist, even telling a poster on this thread to buy an Audi if they want a loan car! How anti-consumer can you get?

Volkswagen don't market themselves in the same way that Audi do, it's not reasonable to expect VW to offer a loan car. I'd like to know how you work out that being realistic is "anti-consumer" in your eyes?

I've never known a dealer to keep cars on hand (except for the brands like Lexus) in the event of a sudden failure.


VW's should be sufficiently reliable that a loan car is affordable for VGA to provide in such circumstances without affecting unit cost and if not, then the cost of repairs and loan cars should encourage VW to raise their standards.

If you want to pay another $5K on your car it probably is possible.

Read the warranty terms for brands like Mercedes and BMW, they all say in the event of a breakdown that they are not responsible for any costs other than the repair of the car.

Why don't we have VAG reimburse us for our time as well? Perhaps loading and unloading of the car? The telephone calls involved with the repair work?


But no, you say the owners of a $50k Golf should not expect a loaner when the trasmission fails inside 6 months.

I wouldn't expect one because I know it's not realistic to have cars sitting around waiting for breakdowns and the cars in the service department are booked out 4 week ahead.


And once again, your last post, Mav, is another example your being unable to engage in a rational debate.

Perhaps I'm a realist and can look at it from both sides rather than living in a fantasy world where the customer is always right and should get everything that they demand given to them on a silver platter with dancing girls.

Dubya
28-11-2009, 09:50 PM
Once again you've take the comment out of context.

I was responding to a statement that "The whole idea of buying a new car is to trouble free for at least 2-3 years..."

And my full response was

"I think you have unrealistic expectations if that's what you believe, many people will have years of trouble free motoring and some will have problems which is unfortunately what you're experiencing.

If the car was trouble free for 3 years for everyone VW wouldn't bother offering a warranty."

Read what I wrote, many (not all) will have years of trouble free motoring and some (not all) will have problems. I than said that if the car was trouble free for 3 years (which is impossible for any car and really any product with more than one moving part) that VW wouldn't bother offering a warranty.

You have taken out of context my comments which were directed at the claim that a new car should have no problems.

Sorry, mate, if I missed your main point, but your supposition is still WRONG.

If VW cars were completely reliable VW WOULD still offer a warranty and might even increase its length.

VW would not turn around and remove the warranty, as YOU SAID VW would.

That is what you said.

It is unsustainable.

You refuse to admit it. As per usual.

Just because you said it to make the point that no make is, on average, 100% reliable does not make the statement any less false and illogical.

But you appear to lack the magnanimity to say, "I agree the statement is wrong, I only said it flippantly to make a point - bad example."

Instead you dance a merry dance of avoidance and denial, changing the subject and splitting hairs between guarantee and warranty when the resulting obligation on VW would be same - ie to rectify the defect.

And the futility of trying to get you to understand. The futility.

I only take you on with such zeal, Mav, because a number of posters have sent me PMs lamenting your obstinance in the face of all reason and I don't mind a bit of intellectual pugilism.

However, your dogged determination to deny all reason and prolong the bout makes me feel a bit of a bully.

I'd rather admit defeat, my fingers mangled, and merely plead you go a bit easier on other posters, drop the patronising "buy an Audi" type comments, and generally give this forum the benefit of your considerable knowledge about all things double-u in a kinder, less opinionated way.

Greg Roles
28-11-2009, 09:59 PM
Dubya it's quite simple mate. Mav is always right. Always. He loves anyone who dares say different, gives him another chance to prove he's right. And to his credit, from time to time he actually is!

Maverick
28-11-2009, 10:04 PM
Dubya it's quite simple mate. Mav is always right. Always. He loves anyone who dares say different, gives him another chance to prove he's right. And to his credit, from time to time he actually is!

Once again Cogdoc drops in to offer nothing except some cheap shots and attempt to start an argument. How many posts of yours have been deleted recently?

:troll:

Greg Roles
28-11-2009, 10:11 PM
Yep, can't argue you there, heck you're right! :banana:

Treza360
28-11-2009, 10:24 PM
Well done Maverick... :rolleyes:
Another thread down the crapper and locked...
Sigh...
Cheers,
Trent