DSG7 0AM Vag Com Data Logs

[logger]

I have started this new thread about the DSG7 0AM here in MK6 because my contributions to the original thread at MK5 (http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=36327&page=2) diverged into discussing a MK6 gearbox. I know there are lot of DSG threads already, but this one might focus a bit on answering questions by capturing what the DSG7 is actually doing via VagCom.

To get your mind around how it all works here is a drawing of the innards.
http://www.nimblefeet.com/QF/DSG7.jpg

With VCDS, I can log lots of parameters slowly, or 1 or 2 parameters quite quickly. Sample rate ranging from ~ 1 per second to ~ 10 per second. So if you have suggestion on what might be worthwhile looking at let me know.

.. and to get the ball rolling here are the two excel logs I have made to date.
1) 4 minute drive in "D" with the TSI118 DSG7 reversing, stopping and starting several times and going through all 7 forward gears. DSG7 Drive Log.xls (http://www.nimblefeet.com/QF/DSG7%20Drive%20Log.xls)
2) Crawling along at idle on a flat road, Starting and stopping 3 times using different Gear Selector positions. 6kphStartStop3Times.xls (http://www.nimblefeet.com/QF/6kphStartStop3Times.xls)

I can tell you, trying to understand how this thing works is a great way to fry your brain. :icon_veryconfused:

PS. when I labelled the drawing above I was gunna switch all the Gear Numbers to confuse the hell out of everyone but I decided against it :P

[soogs]

You have opened a can of worms. To start the ball rolling, I've a quetion and a suggestion.

Q1. When you are coasting without any accelerator input, is the clutch disengaged eg in neutral like in a manual? The reason for this question is generally when i coast to a red light, I shift the gears to neutral both in manuals and autos, in the belief that it may save gas, probly a misconception that it does. I guess you should be able to tell as the rev should drop to idle.

S1. Since the DSG is computer controlled, wouldn't it be nice if we can somehow input the gear mapping with a push of a button in say 4 patterns from nanny to hoon. Shouldn't be hard to acheive and probly more useful than ACC, as from the other thread most say D upshifts too early and S is to aggressive.

TIA

[Frankenstrat]

You should NEVER coast in a standard automatic gearbox. You will blow the seals and possibly cause other damage to occur. As for the DSG, I'll leave that to someone more familiar with that particular gearbox.

[cktsi]

So from rows 47-54 were you creeping in "D1" (on MFD)? If so, were you getting the mild bumping?

I can see from your sheet that the clutch plates are being 'feathered' i.e. being modulated only slightly.

My suggestion (and one Blutopless2 might also be interested in) is sampling rate 10 per second and just crawl in D1 - preferably up a reasonable incline - not too steep but enough to trigger the bumping. Don't do it for too long of course.

It's would be interesting to see the variation in K1 expanding & contracting.

btw... you must be a real car nut cos you even spent a few hrs with the car jacked up, spinning the wheels, reading Vagcom & looking at the gears?? :wow:

Nice diagram... I say that cos I cannot find 0AM on the internet (but I have 02E) and it's exactly as you described it in the other thread & as I consequently envisioned it.

The surprise is the reverse gear as it differs to 02E diagram. Maybe the depiction is confusing, but in 02E it depicts
1. torque coming off the drive shaft,
2. onto the reverse gear shaft, then
3. back onto the output shaft with the forward high gears 5 & 6, then
4. the differential.

Whereas this diagram is showing (and I could be reading it wrong & it isn't the flow diagram anyway - but merely highlighting the connecting cogs)

1. torque coming off the drive shaft, then
2. the output shaft with the forward high gears 5, 6, 7 then (compared to R shaft in 02E)
3. onto the reverse gear shaft, then
4. the differential.

Hopefully i've got it wrong and there is a transmission power flow diagram depicting reverse? Sorry to ask, but I know it's a real :nerd: question.

[logger]

You have opened a can of worms. To start the ball rolling, I've a quetion and a suggestion.

Q1. When you are coasting without any accelerator input, is the clutch disengaged eg in neutral like in a manual? The reason for this question is generally when i coast to a red light, I shift the gears to neutral both in manuals and autos, in the belief that it may save gas, probly a misconception that it does. I guess you should be able to tell as the rev should drop to idle.
Here you go 50kphCoastDvsN.xls (http://www.nimblefeet.com/QF/50kphCoastDvsN.xls) Shows you what the clutches do two similar accels up to 50kph then a coast back down to a stop. The first event is doing the decel in "D" Drive and the second in angels Gear "N". As you will see, both clutches open in "N" (as you would expect). However in "D" they alternate one clutch being engaged to some extent all the time with a degree of slip occuring. This XLS logs clutch torque, commanded and actual positions. There is a 2nd sheet in there with another longer decel in "D"

S1. Since the DSG is computer controlled, wouldn't it be nice if we can somehow input the gear mapping with a push of a button in say 4 patterns from nanny to hoon. Shouldn't be hard to acheive and probly more useful than ACC, as from the other thread most say D upshifts too early and S is to aggressive.
Yeah that would be neat. On the other hand, I s'pose "D" could be considered the Nanny mode, "S" for hoons and Tiptronic for home brew. BTW, Took me a while to work out the only thing the cable from the Gear selector to the gearbox does is to set the park brake :rolleyes: Rest is controlled by the PFM box.

[logger]

So from rows 47-54 were you creeping in "D1" (on MFD)? If so, were you getting the mild bumping? No 47-54 on the "0-6km 3 times" sheet was in Tiptronic mode, gear "1" and no bumping whatsoever.


I can see from your sheet that the clutch plates are being 'feathered' i.e. being modulated only slightly.yes hence the slipping

My suggestion (and one Blutopless2 might also be interested in) is sampling rate 10 per second and just crawl in D1 - preferably up a reasonable incline - not too steep but enough to trigger the bumping. Don't do it for too long of course.

It's would be interesting to see the variation in K1 expanding & contracting.
Will place that on the job list

btw... you must be a real car nut cos you even spent a few hrs with the car jacked up, spinning the wheels, reading Vagcom & looking at the gears?? .. and there is still plenty in there that is puzzling so there will be more jacking and spinning required:P


Nice diagram... I say that cos I cannot find 0AM on the internet (but I have 02E) and it's exactly as you described it in the other thread & as I consequently envisioned it.

The surprise is the reverse gear as it differs to 02E diagram. Maybe the depiction is confusing, but in 02E it depicts
1. torque coming off the drive shaft,
2. onto the reverse gear shaft, then
3. back onto the output shaft with the forward high gears 5 & 6, then
4. the differential.

Whereas this diagram is showing (and I could be reading it wrong & it isn't the flow diagram anyway - but merely highlighting the connecting cogs)

1. torque coming off the drive shaft, then
2. the output shaft with the forward high gears 5, 6, 7 then (compared to R shaft in 02E)
3. onto the reverse gear shaft, then
4. the differential.

Hopefully i've got it wrong and there is a transmission power flow diagram depicting reverse? Sorry to ask, but I know it's a real :nerd: question.
You haven't got it wrong, thats how it works. Not that I have studied the 02E DSG6, but it sounds to me like it only has 2 output shafts. Whereas this little marvel has 3. Gear wheel R1 will always idle on shaft 2 (otherwise there would be a serious problem) & R gear is actually selected on R2 on shaft 3.

[logger]

Would this make sense for set of gear ratios including the final drive?

1st 17.36
2nd 10.19
3rd 6.7
4th 4.91
5th 3.90
6th 3.01
7th 2.66

[Stoney!]

Q1. When you are coasting without any accelerator input, is the clutch disengaged eg in neutral like in a manual? The reason for this question is generally when i coast to a red light, I shift the gears to neutral both in manuals and autos, in the belief that it may save gas, probly a misconception that it does. I guess you should be able to tell as the rev should drop to idle.

TIA

There is no need for this as when you lift your foot off the throttle in the vee dubs it completely shuts the fuel of (i.e. 0.0L/100k's) and whilst in gear it uses the momentum of the car to keep the engine turning, in neutral it requires fuel to idle so you will actually use more by doing this! (i.e. 0.7L/hour, L/100k's depends on current speed)

and in cars that don't have this feature, whatever you save in fuel will probable be burnt by brake and transmission life....

Stoney!

[logger]

There is no need for this as when you lift your foot off the throttle in the vee dubs it completely shuts the fuel of (i.e. 0.0L/100k's) and whilst in gear it uses the momentum of the car to keep the engine turning, in neutral it requires fuel to idle so you will actually use more by doing this! (i.e. 0.7L/hour, L/100k's depends on current speed)..
Good point Stoney. That would explain why in the decel from 50 to 0 in Drive it still works its way down through the gears swapping clutches along the way. Initially I thought, why so busy, doing all that changing during a coast. It now makes sense that it would do this to keep the engine speed windmilling near some target of around 1,000 rpm.

[soogs]

There is no need for this as when you lift your foot off the throttle in the vee dubs it completely shuts the fuel of (i.e. 0.0L/100k's) and whilst in gear it uses the momentum of the car to keep the engine turning, in neutral it requires fuel to idle so you will actually use more by doing this! (i.e. 0.7L/hour, L/100k's depends on current speed)

and in cars that don't have this feature, whatever you save in fuel will probable be burnt by brake and transmission life....

Stoney!

Would a DSG coast further from 50 to 0 in neutral than in D? If it does then fuel savings would negate each other, as you have pointed out it uses fuel in neutral but then it may coast further unless the friction losses in gear is minimal.

[Stoney!]

If your worried about 20 ml of fuel then why do you own a car seriousley lol.

I'm sorry but I see that as taking it a little to far, I TRY to accelerate gently a lot of the time, and make sure I down change through the gears (manual) to keep it in fuel shut off mode.... but theres only so far you can go before you lose all driving enjoyment, then whats the point of owning such a nice car.....

Just drive it normally and you will find it to be a very efficient car, they are made to be that way, anything you do won't necessarily make it better.

Stoney!

[cktsi]

Would a DSG coast further from 50 to 0 in neutral than in D? If it does then fuel savings would negate each other, as you have pointed out it uses fuel in neutral but then it may coast further unless the friction losses in gear is minimal.

I see both arguments, but I tend to agree with Stoney that the fuel savings are probably negligible. I'll be eating my hat of course when I'm in the middle of nowhere and cr@pp1ng my pants for not driving economically desperately searching for a petrol station.

In a real world situation in somewhere like sydney, how often would you be in a scenario where you could coast from 50 to 0 in neutral?

My main worry in selecting neutral is that I'm not confident of the logic of the locking pin on the transmission. Sometimes it lets you shift from N to D, other times not. I think you have to be stationary for it to lock, but sometimes even on a slightly slow speed it locks me out. What if there's a car behind me and I cannot get into gear & it runs into me cos I cannot drive off?

Anyone know the logic?

To be on the safe side, I'd just keep it in D.

[logger]

...My main worry in selecting neutral is that I'm not confident of the logic of the locking pin on the transmission. Sometimes it lets you shift from N to D, other times not. I think you have to be stationary for it to lock, but sometimes even on a slightly slow speed it locks me out. What if there's a car behind me and I cannot get into gear & it runs into me cos I cannot drive off?

Anyone know the logic?

Yes, its a time delay.

"If the selector lever is set to the "N" position for longer than 2 sec., the control unit supplies the solenoid with current. As a result of this, the locking pin is pressed into the locking pin latch "N" . The selector can no longer be unintentionally moved into a gear. The locking pin is released when the brake is activated."

...and a couple of observations from testing;
This logic only applies below ~ 2-3kph. Above that you can flick in and out merrily.
You only need to give it a mere hint of brake pedal to unlock.
You can actually hear the lock pin solenoid activated if you listen for it.

[logger]

Here is a high sample rate log of what the K2 clutch does when crawling up a hill in 2nd gear. I had to apply light throttle to keep it in gear "D2", occasionally I would back off fractionally, just enough to make it downchange to 1st. 2.3mm represents open K2 clutch which would be happening when 1st gear K1 in use. This is when not enough throttle on hill & it drops back to 1st.

____Time___mm

Time mm
0.08 2.3
0.21 2.3
0.33 2.3
0.45 2.3
0.56 2.3
0.67 2.3
0.81 2.3
0.92 2.3
1.03 2.3
1.15 2.3
1.26 2.3
1.4 2.3
1.51 2.3
1.62 2.3
1.73 2.3
1.84 2.3
1.97 2.3
2.07 2.3
2.19 2.3
2.31 2.3
2.42 2.3
2.55 2.3
2.67 2.3
2.78 2.3
2.88 2.3
2.99 2.3
3.13 2.3
3.24 2.3
3.35 2.3
3.46 2.3
3.57 2.3
3.71 2.3
3.82 2.3
3.93 2.3
4.04 2.3
4.15 2.3
4.28 2.3
4.38 2.3
4.49 2.3
4.6 2.3
4.71 2.3
4.85 2.3
4.96 2.3
5.07 2.3
5.18 2.3
5.29 3.1
5.42 9.2
5.54 10.5
5.65 12.1
5.76 14.3
5.86 15
6 15.2
6.11 15.3
6.22 15.4
6.33 15.6
6.44 15.6
6.58 15.6
6.69 15.7
6.8 15.7
6.91 15.8
7.02 15.8
7.16 15.8
7.27 15.9
7.38 15.8
7.49 15.5
7.6 15
7.73 11.7
7.84 9.5
7.95 2.3
8.06 2.3
8.18 2.3
8.31 2.3
8.43 2.3
8.55 2.3
8.66 8.7
8.77 9.9
8.9 12.5
9.01 14.2
9.12 15.1
9.23 15.7
9.34 15.5
9.48 15.4
9.59 15.8
9.7 16.1
9.81 16.1
9.92 16.5
10.06 16.7
10.17 16.8
10.28 16.9
10.39 16.9
10.5 16.9
10.63 17
10.75 17.1
10.86 17.1
10.96 17.1
11.07 17.1
11.22 17.2
11.32 17.1
11.43 17.1
11.55 17.1
11.65 17.1
11.79 17.1
11.9 17.1
12.01 17.1
12.12 17
12.23 16.8
12.37 16.8
12.48 16.8
12.59 16.7
12.7 16.7
12.81 16.7
12.94 16.7
13.06 16.7
13.16 16.7
13.27 16.7
13.38 16.7
13.52 16.7
13.63 16.6
13.74 16.5
13.85 16.3
13.96 16.2
14.1 16.2
14.22 16.2
14.33 16.2
14.44 16.2
14.55 16.2
14.69 16
14.8 16
14.91 16
15.02 16
15.13 16
15.27 16
15.38 16
15.49 16
15.6 15.9
15.71 15.9
15.84 15.6
15.94 15.5
16.05 15.4
16.16 15.4
16.27 15.3
16.41 15.1
16.52 15.1
16.63 14.9
16.74 14.2
16.85 13.2
16.98 12.1
17.1 11.3
17.21 10.6
17.33 10.3
17.44 10.3
17.58 10.4
17.69 10.4
17.8 10.4
17.91 10.4
18.02 10.4
18.15 10.4
18.27 10.3
18.37 11
18.48 11.9
18.59 12.8
18.73 13.8
18.84 14.4
18.95 14.8
19.06 15.1
19.17 15.4
19.31 15.6
19.42 15.8
19.53 16
19.64 16.1
19.75 16.1
19.89 16
20 15.4
20.11 14.8
20.22 13.7
20.33 12.2
20.46 10.4
20.57 9.5
20.68 7.2
20.79 2.3
20.91 2.3
21.04 2.3
21.15 2.3
21.26 2.3
21.37 2.3
21.48 2.3
21.62 2.3
21.73 2.3
21.84 2.3
21.95 2.3
22.06 2.3
22.21 2.3
22.32 2.3
22.43 2.3
22.54 2.3
22.65 2.3
22.79 2.3
22.9 2.3
23.01 2.3
23.12 2.3
23.23 2.3
23.36 2.3
23.48 2.3
23.59 2.3
23.69 2.3
23.8 2.3
23.94 2.3
24.05 2.3
24.16 2.3
24.27 2.3
24.38 2.3
24.52 2.3
24.63 2.3
24.74 2.3
24.85 2.3
24.96 2.3
25.1 2.3
25.22 2.3
25.33 2.3
25.44 2.3
25.55 2.3
25.69 2.3
25.8 2.3
25.91 2.3
26.02 2.3
26.13 2.3
26.27 2.3
26.38 2.3
26.49 2.3
26.6 2.3
26.71 2.3
26.84 2.3
26.96 2.3
27.06 2.3
27.17 2.3
27.28 2.3
27.42 2.3
27.53 2.3
27.64 2.3
27.75 2.3
27.86 2.3
28 2.3
28.11 2.3
28.22 2.3
28.33 2.3
28.44 2.3
28.57 2.3
28.67 2.3
28.78 2.3
28.89 2.3
29 2.3
29.15 2.3
29.26 2.3
29.37 2.3
29.49 2.3
29.59 2.3
29.73 2.3
29.84 2.3
29.95 2.3
30.06 2.3
30.17 2.3
30.31 2.3
30.42 2.3
30.53 2.3
30.64 2.3
30.75 2.3
30.88 2.3
31 2.3
31.11 2.3
31.21 2.3
31.32 2.3
31.46 2.3
31.57 2.3
31.68 2.3
31.79 2.3
31.9 2.3
32.04 2.3
32.15 2.3
32.26 2.3
32.37 2.3
32.48 2.3
32.61 2.3
32.73 2.3
32.84 2.3
32.95 2.3
33.06 2.3
33.2 2.3
33.32 2.3
33.43 2.3
33.54 2.3
33.65 2.3
33.78 2.3
33.88 2.3
33.99 2.3
34.1 2.3
34.22 2.3
34.36 2.3
34.47 2.3
34.58 2.3
34.69 2.3
34.8 2.3
34.94 2.3
35.05 2.3
35.16 2.3
35.27 2.3
35.38 2.3
35.52 2.3
35.63 2.3
35.74 2.3
35.85 2.3
35.96 2.3
36.09 2.3
36.21 2.3
36.33 2.3
36.44 2.3
36.55 2.3
36.69 2.3
36.8 2.3
36.91 2.3
37.02 2.3
37.13 2.3
37.27 2.3
37.38 2.3
37.49 2.3
37.59 2.3
37.7 2.3
37.84 2.3
37.95 2.3
38.07 2.3
38.17 2.3
38.28 2.3
38.42 2.3
38.53 2.3
38.64 2.3
38.75 2.3
38.86 2.3
38.99 2.3
39.09 2.3
39.21 2.3
39.33 2.3
39.44 2.3
39.57 2.3
39.68 2.3
39.79 2.3
39.9 2.3
40.01 2.3
40.15 2.3
40.26 2.3
40.37 2.3
40.48 2.3
40.59 2.3
40.73 2.3
40.84 2.3
40.95 2.3
41.06 2.3
41.17 2.3
41.3 2.3
41.42 2.3
41.53 2.3
41.64 2.3
41.74 2.3
41.88 2.3
41.99 2.3
42.1 2.3
42.21 2.3
42.32 2.3
42.46 4.7
42.57 9.1
42.68 9.9
42.79 11.4
42.9 13.7
43.04 15.5
43.15 15.9
43.26 15.9
43.37 16.1
43.48 16.2
43.61 16.3
43.73 16.2
43.83 16.3
43.94 16.4
44.05 16.5
44.19 16.5
44.31 16.5
44.41 16.3
44.52 16.3
44.63 16.3
44.77 16.4
44.88 16.4
44.99 16.5
45.1 16.5
45.22 16.5
45.37 16.5
45.47 16.7
45.58 16.7
45.69 16.7
45.8 16.7
45.94 16.7
46.05 16.7
46.16 16.7
46.27 16.7
46.38 16.7
46.51 16.7
46.61 16.8
46.72 16.8
46.83 16.7
46.94 16.7
47.08 16.7
47.19 16.7
47.3 16.7
47.41 16.7
47.52 16.7
47.65 16.7
47.77 16.7
47.88 16.6
47.98 16.6
48.09 16.7
48.23 16.8
48.34 16.8
48.46 16.8
48.56 16.8
48.67 16.8
48.81 16.8
48.92 16.7
49.03 16.5
49.15 16.4
49.26 16.2
49.4 16.2
49.51 16.1
49.62 16.1
49.73 16.1
49.84 16.1
49.98 16.1
50.09 16
50.2 16
50.31 16
50.42 16
50.55 16.4
50.65 16.4
50.76 16.5
50.87 16.5
50.98 16.5
51.12 16.6
51.23 16.6
51.34 16.7
51.45 16.7
51.56 16.5
51.69 16.2
51.81 16.1
51.92 16.1
52.02 16
52.13 16
52.28 15.8
52.38 15.8
52.49 15.8
52.6 15.8
52.71 15.9
52.85 15.9
52.96 16
53.07 16
53.18 16.1
53.29 16
53.43 16
53.54 16
53.65 16
53.76 16
53.87 16
54 16.1
54.12 16.1
54.22 16
54.33 16
54.45 16
54.58 16.1
54.7 16.1
54.8 16.1
54.91 16
55.02 16
55.16 16
55.27 16
55.38 16
55.49 16
55.6 16
55.73 16
55.83 16
55.94 16
56.05 16
56.16 16
56.3 16
56.41 15.8
56.52 15.6
56.63 15.5
56.74 15.4
56.87 15.4
56.99 15.4
57.1 15.3
57.21 15.2
57.33 15.2
57.47 15.1
57.58 15.1
57.69 15.4
57.8 16.1
57.91 16.3
58.04 16.2
58.16 16.1
58.27 16.5
58.37 16.5
58.48 16.5
58.62 16.5
58.73 16.4
58.84 16.4
58.95 16.3
59.06 16.3
59.21 16.2
59.33 16.2
59.44 16.1
59.54 15.8
59.65 15.7
59.79 15.8
59.91 15.8
60.01 15.8
60.12 15.8
60.23 15.8
60.37 15.8
60.48 15.7
60.59 15.6
60.7 15.6
60.81 15.6
60.94 15.7
61.04 15.7
61.15 15.7
61.26 15.6
61.37 15.6
61.51 15.6
61.62 15.8
61.73 15.8
61.84 15.8
61.95 15.7
62.08 15.8
62.2 15.9
62.32 15.9
62.43 15.9
62.54 15.9
62.68 16
62.79 16
62.9 16
63.01 16
63.12 16
63.25 16
63.37 16
63.48 16
63.59 15.9
63.69 15.9
63.83 15.7
63.94 15.7
64.06 15.8
64.16 15.6
64.27 15.5
64.41 15.5
64.52 15.4
64.63 15.4
64.74 15.4
64.85 15.4
64.98 15.5
65.08 15.5
65.19 15.5
65.3 15.6
65.41 15.6
65.55 15.6
65.66 15.7
65.77 15.2
65.88 14.5
65.99 12.9
66.12 10.1
66.24 7.6
66.35 2.3
66.46 2.3
66.56 2.3
66.7 2.3
66.81 2.3
66.93 2.3
67.03 2.3
67.16 2.3
67.3 2.3
67.41 2.3
67.52 2.3
67.63 2.3
67.73 2.3
67.87 2.3


As an aside - initially it was climbing every hill I pointed it at in gear "D2" with revs staying at IDLE and foot off accelerator, never down changing. Then I remember the APR stage 1 tune was active. Disabled the tune and it drops back from "D2" to "D1" on anything more than a slight slope even with a touch of throttle. Go APR....

[soogs]

Yes, its a time delay.

"If the selector lever is set to the "N" position for longer than 2 sec., the control unit supplies the solenoid with current. As a result of this, the locking pin is pressed into the locking pin latch "N" . The selector can no longer be unintentionally moved into a gear. The locking pin is released when the brake is activated."



That's interesting, learn something new everyday. Wonder what the reason for is.

So if you are stationary for more than 2 secs in N, say red lights, then you cannot engage D unless you press the brake? Cos in auto cars, occassionally, I shift the gears to N at red lights to give my foot a rest. Sounds like that's not possible in a DSG

[gerhard]

That's interesting, learn something new everyday. Wonder what the reason for is.

So if you are stationary for more than 2 secs in N, say red lights, then you cannot engage D unless you press the brake? Cos in auto cars, occassionally, I shift the gears to N at red lights to give my foot a rest. Sounds like that's not possible in a DSG

It's to prevent stupid Americans having another reason for a recall program.

It's not a torque converter auto car, and does not behave the way they do.

I don't understand which foot gets a rest when you put a TC auto into neutral at the lights. If it's not dead flat the car will roll and you will have to rest your foot on the brake, same as in any manual car. I can't say that I've ever needed to rest my foot in a TC auto car, you must have a very poor foot strength :)

I don't put my DSG into neutral at the lights, it's designed to not need that.

The safety switch is there to prevent the car being put into drive when there is no driver present, such as when you are running the engine in a driveway or service centre, taking diagnostics, or just getting out to open or close a gate or garage door. If your passenger or a child or a dog were to snick it into D or R it would take off, wouldn't it?.

[cktsi]

Here is a high sample rate log of what the K2 clutch does when crawling up a hill in 2nd gear.

From your earlier spreadsheets looks like the clutch is slipping the way a manual clutch would be ridden on friction point cos I think the values when fully engaged were in the 17's, but a lot of the time in "D2" it's in the 15's.

I'm no mechanic, so I'll ask what may appear to be a dumb question. Is it creeping in 2nd rather than 1st because clutch plate wear is lesser in 2nd gear? It's just i've noticed in a manual if I have really worn clutch plates, the majority of slippage happens in 1st, but not present / noticeable in higher gears (well, at least until the wear becomes chronic).

May not be an informed conclusion from the observation.

[logger]

That's interesting, learn something new everyday. Wonder what the reason for is.

So if you are stationary for more than 2 secs in N, say red lights, then you cannot engage D unless you press the brake? Cos in auto cars, occassionally, I shift the gears to N at red lights to give my foot a rest. Sounds like that's not possible in a DSG
Like Gerhard says the reason is to prevent inadvertent selection and not to prevent damage to the gearbox, which was the other candidate. But play with it a bit and you will see it is easy enough to defeat. It only needs the lightest brake pedal pressure to unlock. So you could still sit @ the lights in "N", lick the brake pedal, select "D" & off you go. You could also just sit stationary in "N", resting your foot, & acquire RSI in your arm by shuffling between "D" & "N" every 1.5sec and it will not lock :P I tend to leave it in "D" though.

[soogs]

Thanks logger. Can't try it yet, haven't got mine yet, hopefully early next year, hence all the dumb questions, as it looks like the DSG behaves differently from both auto and manual.

Gerhard's explanation partly explains the inadvertent selection of D when no driver's present, but most people will engage the hand brake if car in neutral and you have to leave the car.

[cme2c]

From your earlier spreadsheets looks like the clutch is slipping the way a manual clutch would be ridden on friction point cos I think the values when fully engaged were in the 17's, but a lot of the time in "D2" it's in the 15's.

I'm no mechanic, so I'll ask what may appear to be a dumb question. Is it creeping in 2nd rather than 1st because clutch plate wear is lesser in 2nd gear? It's just i've noticed in a manual if I have really worn clutch plates, the majority of slippage happens in 1st, but not present / noticeable in higher gears (well, at least until the wear becomes chronic).

May not be an informed conclusion from the observation.

Your observation is interesting. I have found the reverse, that is, more slip in higher gears. I also find interesting just how much the clutches are slipping in the 7sp DSG and wonder how long they will last, compared to wet cluches in the 6sp.

Being an old motorcyclist and having to remove and replace wet clutches in the dim, dark past, I appreciate the larger friction area and lower friction. I also appreciate the amount of clutch material floating around the gearbox etc.

So the dry clutch may not last as long, but the gearbocx internals have an easier time. I wonder if there are any high milage dry clutch DSGs out there.

[logger]

I have made quite a bit of progress in the last week. (Ross Tech chaps gave me some good help). I used to know about 30 fields. Now I know pretty well all of them. Here is a reasonably complete list of what Mechatronics unit looks at to control the DSG7.


brake light
brake pressure
accelerator position
Kick Down
Zero Accelerator (ie foot is off pedal)
Tiptronic, Source (CAN or Steering wheel)
selector lever position

speeds IN
transmission input, speed 3
engine speed, (G28/CAN)
transmission input, speed 1
transmission input, speed 2

speeds OUT
speed output, shaft 1
speed output, shaft 2
speed output, ESP (CAN)
used, output speed

direction of rotation, shaft 1
direction of rotation, shaft 2

Vehicle Speed

actual torque
engine torque after, intervention (calculated)
engine torque without intervention (calculated)

engine torque limit (Engine),
loss of torque, Engine
loss of torque, transmission
barometric pressure, (height information)

temperature, microprocessor

power supply state, gear train half 1 (target)
power supply state, gear train half 2 (target)
Voltage, gear train half 1
Voltage, gear train half 2

coolant, temperature
intake air, temperature
ambient, temperature

lever lock status
lever lock Combination Lamp

starter release (ie. is engine allowed to start)

selector lever position (instrument cluster)

requirement, air compressor,
cooling fan

increasing, idle speed

Gear Request (When YES gear change has been requested)

transmission torque (nominal value)

clutch, temperature
clutch 1
clutch 2

driving strategies 1/2/3 Lambda

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++
Hydraulic Pump (Supplies the Mechatronics Hydraulic system)
pressure supply
hydraulic pump, (reference speed)
hydraulic pump, (actual speed)
hydraulic pump, Total Run Cycles
Total Runtime
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++
Ignition ON time
CAN-Version

Gears Selected
Drive Shaft 1, Gear, Display Range: NN/1N/3N/N5/N7/Nx/xN
Drive Shaft 2, Gear, Display Range: NN/2N/4N/N6/NR/Nx/xN
?N = Selected Gear located on Output shaft 1
N? = Selected Gear located on Output shaft 2
NN = No gear engaged to Drive/input shaft
xN = Gear in transit on Output shaft 1
Nx = Gear in transit on Output shaft 2
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

steering wheel paddles, status
brake status
steering column module status
Gateway, status

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++

gear train half 1, (nominal pressure)
gear train half 1, (actual pressure)
gear train half 1, target (valve current)
gear train half 1, actual (valve current)
gear train half 1, valve current (value)
gear train half 1, valve Duty cycle
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++

gear train half 2, (nominal pressure)
gear train half 2, (actual pressure)
gear train half 2, target (valve current)
gear train half 2, actual (valve current)
gear train half 2, valve current (value)
gear train half 2, valve Duty cycle
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++
Advanced Control Unit Identification I
Advanced Control Unit Identification II
serial number
Advanced Control Unit Identification III
Advanced Control Unit Identification IV
Mechatronics identification
Advanced Control Unit Identification V
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

clutch 1
clutch 1, desired torque
clutch 1, actual torque
Clutch Path 1, (G617) target
Clutch Path 1, (G617) Actual position
clutch 1 AD is 1, actual position
clutch 1 AD-value of 2, the actual position
valve 3 in the gear train half 1 (N435)
valve 3 (N435), gear train half 1 (target)
valve 3 (N435), gear train half 1 (actual)
clutch 1, friction coefficient
clutch 1, curve
clutch 1, temperature

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
clutch 2
clutch 2, desired torque
clutch 2, actual torque
Clutch Path 2, (G618) target
Clutch Path 2, (G618) Actual position
clutch 2 OD-value 1, actual position
clutch 2 OD value of 2, the actual position
valve 3 in the gear train half 2 (N439)
valve 3 (N439), gear train half 2 (target)
valve 3 (N439), gear train half 2 (actual)
clutch 2, coefficient of friction
clutch 2, curve
clutch 2, temperature
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
displacement sensor 2 for Gear Plate 1/3
displacement sensor 1 for gear plate 2/4
displacement sensor 3 for passage plate 5/7
displacement sensor 4 for gear disc 6/R

& For each gear
adaptation
Engage Position mm
Synchronous Position mm
neutral mm

AND a stack more displacement sensor stuff including
respective selector solenoid valves.
etc etc ...


I can pull any or all of the above stuff out now. Usual issues with sample rate though. 10 per sec for a single value and back to about 1 per sec for 12 items. Also can dump all several hundred values over about 30 seconds into an csv.

Some stuff I have worked out or read..

*Noticed that there are at 2 or 3 diff ratios in use, which is a clever way to make the unit more compact.

*Oils circuit uses a single hyd pump to supply two halves. There are eight solenoid valves. Two to regulate the pressure to each half. Two for the clutches and four for the gear actuators.
Each half has four solenoid valves.
1&1 in each half operate Gears 1/3 2/4
2&2 in each half operate Gears 5/7 6/R
3&3 in each half operates respective clutch
4&4 in each half regulates pressure to half & can shut off and isolate a half if it fails.

*Hyd pump has an accumulator and on cursory look can make 2 or 3 gear changes on residual pressure before it needing to fire up and rebuild pressure.

*I think (but am not yet sure) that the clutch plates have about 10mm of life in them and it may be possible to track their wear from VAG-COM. Will investgate this further. Could someone who knows clutches comment as to whether this would sound reasonable?

Thats about it for now.

[logger]

DSG7 hyd pump.xls (http://www.nimblefeet.com/QF/DSG7%20hyd%20pump%20LOG.xls) is a log of what the Mechatronic Hyd pump does during a short drive around town. Shows that it runs a little over 10% of the time, typically for 2.5 secs each occasion while maintaining hyd pressure between ~ 45 and 60 bar. Mine has run for about 8.5 hours and nearly 12,000 cycles in around 70 hours of driving time. Lets hope this little sucker has plenty of cycles in it. The log is at 0.5 sec sample rate and shows the press drop, when the pumps runs and when gear changes are requested. Pump does not necessarily run during changes prvided accumulator press is sufficient. Pump ran 22 times in a 7 min drive while there were 27 gear changes.

[mr gee]

are you saying the dsg mechatronic pump may be electric? can it be slow to react or pressure up?

I have experienced slow clutch engagement when selecting D or R after start-up and on some occasions, a sensation of clutch slip on hard acceleration(w/o traction control light up).

[logger]

are you saying the dsg mechatronic pump may be electric? Yes, thats right the hydraulic pump is powered by a brushless DC motor

can it be slow to react or pressure up? I don't know. Mine is coming on at about 45bar/650psi.

I have experienced slow clutch engagement when selecting D or R after start-up and on some occasions, a sensation of clutch slip on hard acceleration(w/o traction control light up).I doubt this is due to lack of Mechatronic HYD pressure as there are a stack of other parameters that are considered. But really I am just guessing here.

[logger]

If anyone is paranoid and wants to check their clutch temps - here are the measuring blocks you will need:
098,4 for clutch one and
118,4 for clutch two.
But I believe the speculation elsewhere in these forums is unfounded wrt the OAM and the issues are actually to do with DSG6 wet clutch units that have specific software versions loaded.

[logger]

There is a theory going around the traps that you can reset a DSG7 gearbox by doing this:

"With the vehicle stopped and engine turned off press the accelerator completely to the floor including the lower stage where you feel the click and hold it for about 10-15 seconds. this will reset the DSG and it will relearn." or in short by activating the kick down switch for >10 seconds with IGN off.

I believe this is rubbish and does nothing. It is myth born out of a requirement in the post DSG reset fast adaption process to drive with different pedal positions. Including momentarily at 100% pedal so that the controller can recognise the value for full acceleration.

I then tested the accelerator trick to see if has any effect. I noted the number of clutch adaptations on DSG7 via VAGCOM and there were in the order of 160 & 170 for each clutch after ~ 5 months. So I then applied this foot to the floor procedure for various time periods over 20 seconds with IGN off and on. I then rechecked the adaptation counts and they remained unchanged. So perhaps I am doing it wrong or more likely it is just a crock.

So I then reset the DSG7 properly using VAGCOM and as expected the clutch adaptation counts dropped to zero. Next step was to attempt to complete the "Test Drive after OAM basic settings" procedure and as expected the clutch adaption counts climbed from 0&0 to 2&1. If the test drive is completed successfully there should be at least 3 per clutch. I was a couple short of the 3 per clutch but clearly the adaptation was under way again again from a reset at 0.

Procedure goes on to say:

"If the test drive cannot be performed in the recommended way for the necessary length, the still open fast adaptations are automatically and unoticeably performed in the subsequent driving cycles."

So to my mind this dispels the foot to the floor reset myth.

[RW1]

Thanks for putting in the time. (And for splitting the topic off, was expecting the mods to chop in). I think I found the original source of the "myth" here, I think....
http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=35923&page=2


Have you tried resetting the DSG? With the vehicle stopped and engine turned off press the accelerator completely to the floor including the lower stage where you feel the click and hold it for about 10-15 seconds. this will reset the DSG and it will relearn.

So I've posted up a Q to Coastie at the end here...
http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=35923&page=5


This seems to be the first posting of this procedure for the 7 speed DSG on here. Where did you pick it up from?

C.


Interestly a UK guy has tried it today on a 2.0TSi with 6 speed and reported improvement effects. Always subjective. I wonder if it is something to do with the throttle?

C.

[Glennb]

Is there a need or a procedure to set the throttle response and mapping limits? ie, you mentioned the need to push the pedal all the way to the end so that the controller can learn 100%.

[logger]

Thanks for putting in the time. (And for splitting the topic off, was expecting the mods to chop in). You're welcome. I am obvioulsy intersted in understanding how all these things work too, so I don't mind doing the fiddling about to test stuff.
... I wonder if it is something to do with the throttle?
I suspect (but am only guessing) that the controller seeing full throttle position forms part of the required things it needs to "see" from time to time for the adaptation progress to continue. Because it intuitively leads on from this - that supposing a driver has not used 100% accelerator position for an extremely long time then the controllers idea of where this position is may differ from the true position. It may even be that adaptation cycles cannot increment without the pedal being pegged to 100% momentarily. Will try an test his theory.


Is there a need or a procedure to set the throttle response and mapping limits? ie, you mentioned the need to push the pedal all the way to the end so that the controller can learn 100%.
There is a procedure called Throttle Body Alignment (TBA) which was previoulsy accomplished with VagCom. But now with the MK6's, (while TBA can still be done via VagCom) I understand from an extremely reliable source that it can now also be done simply by turning IGN on without starting for about 30 seconds when ENG is cold. Then the throttle will cycle through its range and the ECU will adapt/align to its positions. But I don't think this would relate to the DSG7 adaptation or reset. I think it is more to do with the ECU.

[RW1]

I suspect (but am only guessing) that the controller seeing full throttle position forms part of the required things it needs to "see" from time to time for the adaptation progress to continue. Because it intuitively leads on from this - that supposing a driver has not used 100% accelerator position for an extremely long time then the controllers idea of where this position is may differ from the true position. It may even be that adaptation cycles cannot increment without the pedal being pegged to 100% momentarily. Will try an test his theory.

That may tie in with my driving techniques and "running-in" the engine over the past few months. Since new last November, 2,000 miles ago, I've refrained from using full throttle - generally only using 1/4 to 3/4-ish due to urban crawl traffic. Only in the last few weeks have I taken the throttle to "100%" and held it there while driving. When first taken to the 100% and held while driving, the car's hesitations and lurchy gear changes did not lessen at all. Only as said, when full press of the throttle with ignition off for 20 secs.

C.

[logger]

Learnt something new today. Used to think "S" mode prevented the DSG7 from using 7th gear. This is not the case - you can in fact still get it to use 7th in "S". A case of beer to anyone who can tell me how to get it into 7th in sports mode.

[AdamD]

Learnt something new today. Used to think "S" mode prevented the DSG7 from using 7th gear. This is not the case - you can in fact still get it to use 7th in "S". A case of beer to anyone who can tell me how to get it into 7th in sports mode.

Cruise control?

My mother's MkV 2.0 FSI will slip back into the standard 'D' shift pattern if cruise is activated, even when in Sport. Which means straight into 6th (it's the non-DSG) at the first possible moment... d'oh!

[MurphyTheElf]

By going really really fast?

[logger]

Cruise control?
Bugger it was supposed to be a hard Question. You got it first go :banana:
It has taken me 6 months of driving to see S7 on the MFD.


By going really really fast?Doesn't do it. Flat biscuit and it will only get to 6 of 7 in "S", which ties in with the manual saying max speed occurs in 6th.

[AdamD]

Bugger it was supposed to be a hard Question. You got it first go :banana:

Woohoo, case of beer! Oh wait, you're in Mel... hmm... roadtrip time, haha! ;)

Well, when the GTI arrives anyway. :banana:

[logger]

@ Clubbie wrote in another thread, that this behavior of the DSG7 pi$$es him off..
The thread was locked by mod, so I have added a response here.


2) No detent on D to N on the DSG so easy to find neutral. Worse still if it is in neutral at the lights foot has to go on brake to get D again. This is ar$e about and pain as the car crawls when you release the brakes so it is nice to put the car in N on flat ground rather than standing on the brake pedal.

Keep in mind that things like this are done for good reason. It is a safety interlock system, therefore it makes a lot of sense for it to allow bumping out of gear to neutral from D or R AND to disallow the opposite. Namely bumping from N to D or R. If it was done any other way, it would be easy enough to envisage children bumping it into gear inadvertently with the engine running. or not so smart mechanics bumping it into gear and running someone/thing over.

I can understand how you find it annoying. Does not bother me though.

It can be actively circumvented though. It the interlock has a 3 second delay timer starting when you select away from D or R. So you could just slide the selector between D & N every 2.5 seconds and it will not lock you out of drive. Totally impractical I know but just passing this on as background info.
The other method (as mentioned by someone else) is to just give it a sniff of brake pedal. Just a poofteenth and nowhere near enough to actually apply the brakes. This will remove the interlock.

Here I digress from your orignal issue - But you can for example be reversing slowly and just lick the brake pedal and it will let you select directly from R to D while the car is still going backwards. Then you can press the accelerator and drive off forward. You would not want to do this in a torque convertor Auto as it will have a dummy spit. But I do not see any problem doing it with a DSG. Remember underneath it is working like a manual in with clutches. The difference in slip between clutch plates between a cars drivetrain going backwards at 5kph (or lets say 30rpm) and the engine forward at 1500 rpm as compared to a stationary drive train is inconsequential.


BTW for clarification, as there was some confusion it another moderated thread.
DSG7 OAM as fitted to the tsi118 Does Not Have Launch Control.

[Corey_R]

Thanks for the post and the clarifications logger :)

I'll link to your post from both of those threads :)

[clubbie]

Thanks for the response logger.

I have just seen the thread was closed, I did search but did not come up with this thread.

Understand the safety "accidentally bumping into gear" is dangerous, so minor pain there that I can live with. Just me being lazy.

Resting the hand on the gear lever (bad habbit - came from a manual SP23) can pop the car into neutral. So is there a setting that can be changed via vagcom or tune to change the detent setting to stop inadvertant neutral?

Clubbie

[Digitalic]

There is a theory going around the traps that you can reset a DSG7 gearbox by doing this:

"With the vehicle stopped and engine turned off press the accelerator completely to the floor including the lower stage where you feel the click and hold it for about 10-15 seconds. this will reset the DSG and it will relearn." or in short by activating the kick down switch for >10 seconds with IGN off.

I believe this is rubbish and does nothing. It is myth born out of a requirement in the post DSG reset fast adaption process to drive with different pedal positions. Including momentarily at 100% pedal so that the controller can recognise the value for full acceleration.

I then tested the accelerator trick to see if has any effect. I noted the number of clutch adaptations on DSG7 via VAGCOM and there were in the order of 160 & 170 for each clutch after ~ 5 months. So I then applied this foot to the floor procedure for various time periods over 20 seconds with IGN off and on. I then rechecked the adaptation counts and they remained unchanged. So perhaps I am doing it wrong or more likely it is just a crock.

So I then reset the DSG7 properly using VAGCOM and as expected the clutch adaptation counts dropped to zero. Next step was to attempt to complete the "Test Drive after OAM basic settings" procedure and as expected the clutch adaption counts climbed from 0&0 to 2&1. If the test drive is completed successfully there should be at least 3 per clutch. I was a couple short of the 3 per clutch but clearly the adaptation was under way again again from a reset at 0.

Procedure goes on to say:

"If the test drive cannot be performed in the recommended way for the necessary length, the still open fast adaptations are automatically and unoticeably performed in the subsequent driving cycles."

So to my mind this dispels the foot to the floor reset myth.


Can you please explain how to reset DSG7 adaptation using Vagcom/vcds? Only info I could find is for DSG6.

Thanks in advance!