Mk6 GTI or Mk5 GTI Pirelli

[Lukey13]

I'm trying to decide between a Mk6 GTI or a Mk5 GTI Pirelli.

This would be for my daily driver/fun/sporty ride as opposed to our big, comfy luxury cruising family car for trips and weekend adventures.

For this reason, I would prefer the 2 door versions in either.

If I got the new Mk6, I'd probably option leather and the 18" wheels. I'd probably end up chipping either to increase power and torque.

Some of the pros/cons I see thus far include:
Mk6 Pros
* Comfier and quieter than Pirelli, even when optioned with 18" wheels
* Leather seats a bit more classical than Pirelli ones
* Less turbo lag in the standard GTI, with it's smaller turbo (even when both are chipped) and therefore more linear power delivery and low-down urgency - even more so than the standard Mk5 GTI too apparently
* The biggest pro for me would be choice of manual transmission as opposed to Pirelli's DSG - I love the involvement of driving a manual car
* More modern interior and newer controls/dials/steering wheel, etc.
* Slightly rortier exhaust/intake sound due to tuned piping into cabin (although the Pirelli is supposed to sound a bit louder than a standard Mk5 GTI anyway)

Mk5 Pirelli Pros
* Noticeably more power out of the box (despite increased turbo lag) and becomes an absolute monster when chipped as opposed to a chipped standard GTI
* Sportier looks both inside and out

I have also considered a new MY09 R32 which has the downside of 4 doors and DSG but I do like the AWD and the exhaust sound is absolutely to die for and amazingly addictive. Plus, whatever anybody says, it still seems to be quicker than both GTIs unmodified, but has the downside of not easily being modified for performance. However, in saying that the standard performance is more than adequate.

Any further thoughts/comments on the three choices...?

[gregozedobe]

My usual advice applies : Test drive all the contenders on the roads and traffic conditions you usually drive in, then choose the one you enjoy driving the most.

Only you know what your priorities and preferences are, and what compromises you are prepared to make when choosing.

If your daily drive involves lots of stop start heavy traffic then a DSG may be more suitable ( I don't drive in heavy traffic much, and I also prefer manuals).

I'll add a couple more personal opinions for your comparison :

The Pirelli will feel more sporty and alive, but will have more difficulty getting traction for quick takeoffs on wet roads than an R32 (AWD). The only real lag I noticed with the Pirelli was the delay when starting off from a stop (in D, not Launch control) the rest of the time the DSG just changes down gears for you and away you go. I loved the seats, but they aren't every body's cup of tea.

The R32 will feel more "mature" and relaxed when you can't be bothered pushing it a bit.

[windyzz]

Let me add you one more thing. In MK5 you can get quite a few bargain, where the MK 6 GTi price may reach to a point where luxury car tax applied.

[Lukey13]

Thanks for the tips so far.

At this stage I've only driven a Mk5 R32 and a Mk6 103TDI with full sports kit, in the absence of any local GTIs.

Loved the R32 and disliked the turbo lag in the TDI. I hope the Pirelli doesn't have as much lag as that did!

One thing that's swaying me towards the Pirelli is getting to 230kw with an ECU chip, as opposed to 188kw with the standard GTI with an ECU chip. Although I need to research more on how these cars manage such power figures with FWD.

I'm not so keen on stretching the budget for an Audi S3, however I'd feel far more confident in 230kw going through AWD.

The pricing is a fair point. Some that I've found so far include:
R32 for $55k drive-away
Pirelli for mid $40ks drive-away
Audi S3 for $63k drive-away

And I'm guessing that a 2 door Mk6 GTI manual with leather, 18" wheels and sunroof would be around mid $40s drive away.

[gregozedobe]

You probably won't get too many dealers willing to discount Mk 6 GTIs until supply catches up to demand (unless you are eligible for the fleet/corporate discount). That took a long time when the Mk V GTI first came to Oz.

VW TDIs typically need around 1,800 rpm before they get going properly (some a bit sooner, some later), but once you learn how to drive within the power band they can be quite enjoyable to drive (some people really like the "surge of steam" when they come on boost).

[DaveToyostar]

Go the Pirelli, I just picked up mine 18 days ago. I picked this over the R32.

Much more fun then the R32.

MK6 GTI seems too over priced for nothing more then a minor update.

Down side of the Pirelli is no Manual option, which I would have taken over the DSG if it was availible and if you are going new there is not too many if any 4 doors availible.

Where are you located? Where are you looking to buy from?

[triode12]

I'd recommend a Pirelli - but then I am biased (I've got one). :)

IMBO, the Golf V looks better than the VI. The front of the V looks more aggressive. The V's back too is a lot nicer than the VI - which looks pedestrian.

There are only 400 examples of the Pirelli in Australia. All of the Pirellis have come out of the Wolfsburg plant. The VI GTI will be "a dime a dozen" in a couple of years (every man and his dog will own one) and may not be 'Made in Germany'.

The exhaust note of the V is real while the one on the VI is fake. VW lowered the cabin NVH levels of the VI so much that they had to put in an electronic resonator to replicate the sound of the engine (how cracked up is that?)

There are currently great deals on the Pirelli, why let yourself be raped by the stealers for being first in the neighbourhood to own a MkVI (unless you are into that sort of thing)?

Cons of getting a Pirelli:
Turbo lag - this can be overcome with a tune.
Losing your licence because you'll want to plant it everytime.
Having to live in the dog house bec your misses gets jealous every time some SYT crossing the road smiles at you while you are behind the wheel of your rellie - this while your misses is in the car with you(trust me it has happened to me a couple of times already).
P-platers in their rice racers wanting to shut you down at the lights which leads to point 2 and why point 1 is a good idea (but not really necessary).

[Lukey13]

Good points so far, thanks.

It sounds as though the performance of the Pirelli is strong compared to the regular GTI - which is a major plus for me.

However, the fact that the new Mk6 GTI is indeed so quiet that a resonator goes into the cabin to increase engine noise actually appeals to me somewhat as I love a quiet car in which the only thing you can hear is a sweet engine note (even if it is a subdued one).

Another thing I've thought of is that the Mk6 has the new "electronic diff" at the front which would probably do a better job of putting power down in corners - especially with a modified ECU. Although I suppose I'll be limited to something around 180kw with the Mk6 as opposed to 230kw with the Pirelli and it's stronger internals and larger S3 turbo.

Can anyone comment on how the silver Pirelli looks in the metal? I had my eyes set on that special dark blue colour, but the silver may be more practical after coming from a black car which attracts scratches and weekly cleaning.

[triode12]

Good points so far, thanks.

It sounds as though the performance of the Pirelli is strong compared to the regular GTI - which is a major plus for me.

However, the fact that the new Mk6 GTI is indeed so quiet that a resonator goes into the cabin to increase engine noise actually appeals to me somewhat as I love a quiet car in which the only thing you can hear is a sweet engine note (even if it is a subdued one).

Another thing I've thought of is that the Mk6 has the new "electronic diff" at the front which would probably do a better job of putting power down in corners - especially with a modified ECU. Although I suppose I'll be limited to something around 180kw with the Mk6 as opposed to 230kw with the Pirelli and it's stronger internals and larger S3 turbo.

Can anyone comment on how the silver Pirelli looks in the metal? I had my eyes set on that special dark blue colour, but the silver may be more practical after coming from a black car which attracts scratches and weekly cleaning.


The V isn't that noisy esp when compared to other brands, as a matter of fact it is on par or quieter than them. I had a Civic sport before the rellie and it was just as quiet/noisy in the cabin. It is just that the VI is almost tomb like inside (not a good thing as you really want to hear what is happening around you too e.g. screeching tires of a car about to hit you)

The silver is not bad (my second choice of colour) but all Vs except the black have a goatee. :)

[pologti18t]

There are only 400 examples of the Pirelli in Australia. All of the Pirellis have come out of the Wolfsburg plant. The VI GTI will be "a dime a dozen" in a couple of years (every man and his dog will own one) and may not be 'Made in Germany'.




They are so popular that you can still pick up 2008 build Pirellis ;)

Wait for the MkVI Gti. I have seen one driving round Newtown and I can say they look sharper and more modern than the Mk V. The styling changes give them a broader lower look.

[Lukey13]

Yeah, I'm sure the Mk5 is plenty quiet. Obviously quietness and low NVH is a positive trait and "tomb-like" quietness is even better (as long as the engine note is there). Although having driven a Mk6 TDI with 18" wheels I didn't think it was much quieter than some of the other luxury cars I've owned or driven. No big deal though.

What do you mean by "goatee" on the GTI?

[Edra]

The Pirelli has stiffer, lower suspension than a standard mk 5 gti to begin with. the mk6 gti uses a revised version of the 2.0 litre turbo(ED888) or whatever that has been deemed unsuitable by VAG for high RPM or high HP applications, it is more efficient and economical in power production but nothing compared to its older brother for making peak power, hence the reason it is not used in the mk 6 golf R. with just a flash the Pirelli is making 230kw approx 300hp and 400nm Tq, at the motor. further an Carbonio intake, Apr fuel pump and Turbo back exhaust will give you 350hp (250+kw) at the motor.
I agree the mk 6 looks great, but if you want roll on power that eats modded evo 9s Go for the Pirelli. nothing comes close for the money.
you can hit the dealer for no costs or duty's out the door i would suggest around 48.000 drive away.

[Sharkie]

All the GTI's, including the Pirelli have issues putting the power to the road when modified. All would be quicker if they had AWD .... for a classic example have a look at the latest Motor magazine to see how ineffective FWD and massive power is.

If you are to leave the cars stock I would pick in this order .... on immediate stock available

1. R32
2. Pirelli
3. GTI MK5

I'd rather wait a bit and get a MK6 GTI though, it will be current for 3-5years and you won't feel like you are driving an old car almost immediatly.

But for the ultimate wait about 12 months and get the MK6 R .... AWD and the 2.0T goodness ..... it is essentially a Pirelli upspecced crossed with a R32 to get the best of both worlds. Around $58K + ORC

[pologti18t]

The Pirelli has stiffer, lower suspension than a standard mk 5 gti to begin with.

You sure? I think the only change is the 18inch wheel/tyre combo (Pirelli).

The MK6 Gti has been lowered compared to the Mk5 Gti.

[tinto]

Man there's gonna be a logjam on the new R when it is released.
Sharkie, good on you for getting your name in early :)

I'd personally be hesitant to pick up a new model in it's first year.
That's not an endorsement to get a MK5, but I'm wary of being a guinea pig (although the new 2.0 TSI engine has been around for a little while now).

(written by a pirelli driver)

[Lukey13]

...the mk6 gti uses a revised version of the 2.0 litre turbo(ED888) or whatever that has been deemed unsuitable by VAG for high RPM or high HP applications, it is more efficient and economical in power production but nothing compared to its older brother for making peak power, hence the reason it is not used in the mk 6 golf R. with just a flash the Pirelli is making 230kw approx 300hp and 400nm Tq, at the motor. further an Carbonio intake, Apr fuel pump and Turbo back exhaust will give you 350hp (250+kw) at the motor.
I agree the mk 6 looks great, but if you want roll on power that eats modded evo 9s Go for the Pirelli. nothing comes close for the money.
you can hit the dealer for no costs or duty's out the door i would suggest around 48.000 drive away.

Does that mean that the Mk6 GTI can't be flashed the same way the Mk5 can (to around 180kw?)?

230kw in a Pirelli sure would be an addictive surge of power...
I wish the Audi S3 Quattro wasn't such a hike in price from the VW, as that would be almost unstoppable running that power through AWD. :eek:

[tinto]

The new 2.0TSI engine has been out in the MK5 in other parts of the world for a while.
I believe it is already here in the 2.0 litre skodas.

and the tuning potential is roughly the same.

[Edra]

4wd is great especially in less than optimal conditions, off the line etc but it adds quite a bit more weight to the car and resistance to drivetrain and engine, the new Haldex system will likely have some cool tricks up its sleeve's on the mk 6 R with its diff split. But on the mk5 R32 power at the wheels compared to the engine was a greater percentage loss than the mk 5 GTI.
so roll on power from 60 kmh in a chipped 240kw Pirelli vs 240 kw chipped Golf R would be interesting to compare.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxd2IW_i-Ew&feature=related

[gregozedobe]

so roll on power from 60 kmh in a chipped 240kw Pirelli vs 240 kw chipped Golf R would be interesting to compare.


If it's dry and good traction I'd be putting my money on the Pirelli (lighter, less drivetrain losses), but in the wet the Golf R would get an initial advantage (AWD = less wheelspin).

[triode12]

Unless you are going to take you car on the track, all this power is academic in anyway.

The important thing is that the car is fun to drive on a daily basis and the MkV GTI and Pirelli definitely fit the bill. I can't comment on the MkVI so try before you buy.

There are more powerful cars out there that are better track vehicles but if you aren't going to take the car onto a track, get the one that puts a smile on your face everytime you drive it and not one that has the higher "numbers".... because there will always be car out there with better specs. A car that is fun to drive on a daily basis at what ever price is not easy to come by/find.

[Lukey13]

Can anybody comment on what an Audi S3 drives like?

Price aside, it's certainly a good looking car with some decent specs...

[gregozedobe]

Can anybody comment on what an Audi S3 drives like?

Price aside, it's certainly a good looking car with some decent specs...

You may get more responses if you ask that question on the Audi sub-forum ;)

[trueman]

Hi all
I am waiting for Mk6 GTI .... may take a while..
There is an opportunity to purchase new MK5 gti pirelli for $5-8K less from same dealer. No ACC obviously but has SATNAV
Are these pirellis exceptionally good or just an end of the line publicity stunt

Thanks

[elisiX]

I believe there is a lengthy thread discussing exactly this but I might be wrong. No the Pirelli is certainly not a publicity stunt - its got a different engine/turbo all together. In fact its the same setup as the S3 give or take from what i've read - ie a bigger K04 turbo. IMO if you can live with the yellow/tyre tread interior of the MKV Pirelli, its going to be a great buy with the discount you suggest. There's quite a few nice reads on the Pirelli on mkv.com also if you want to research further.

[elisiX]

and here it is.. http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=38601&highlight=MK6+Pirelli

:)

[triode12]

If it is any colour apart from Yellow, I'd take the Pirelli over the MKVI GTI. Even if it didn't come with bixenons, a sunroof and all those electronic aids of the MKVI.

My opinion is biased of course. I currently own a Pirelli and have driven the MKVI at the VW trackday event - I'd rather be in a MkV over a MkVI anyday.

In a year or two, the MKVI GTI will be as common as muck while the Pirelli will still be unique - there are only 400 Pirellis in the country.

[team_v]

I'd go the pirelli.

Limited numbers means they should hold their value a lot better.
The extra bits included (k04 turbo, coded valences, interior etc) make it a nice looking vehicle.

And it is already performance ready.

[elisiX]

I don't know about that triode12. The MKV is just as much "as common as muck" as the MKVI will ever be. And in my opinion, unfortunately the Pirelli may get lumped in with the regular MKV GTI just like the OP assumed. "end of the line publicity stunt". For enthusiasts, they will know better, but the general public will not I don't think. The Pirelli represents very good value for money in the current equation when comparing the MKVI GTI and Pirelli, but it comes at some sacrifice to taste (seats) and features (new bits on the MKVI). For outright performance you cant argue with the Pirelli's advantage and its own additions over the MKVI GTI such as turbo etc.

[tinto]

Worth noting that the high performance engine in a Pirelli is going to live on in the mk6 Golf R.
It is a different engine to that in the standard mk6 GTI.
Probably an economical reason, but still means there will be further development on the engine in a flagship model.

<-- Pirelli owner. I love it.

[GoLfMan]

go the Pirelli I recon!!

Its a Audi S3 without AWD :) plus you chip it and it goes to like 220kw's!!!! :eek:

I'd have it over a mk6 any day of the week

[Corey_R]

People keep saying that this is the same engine as the S3. And whilst I do understand that it does have some of the upgrades of the S3 over the base GTI engine, is it really the IDENTICAL engine to the S3?

If it really is identical, then why are there separate ECU updates from the tuners like APR? Why do those updates take the Pirelli engine up to a lower figure than the S3/TT-S/Golf R ECU updates?

I've never really looked into it, because I had no interest in the Pirelli model (I really don't like the interior, and disliked that it didn't have several options that the regular GTI had), but I just believe that if it really were the S3 engine then it'd take the same ECU and have the same result in power... which it doesn't.

[elisiX]

I thought the only difference was the lack of Quattro/4WD.. but perhaps there's more to it?

[trueman]

Thanks for replies, all very helpful.
Should learn to use search engine before jumping in with new thread but great to get up to date advice.
Really just looking to get into GTI sooner as new to vw. I am not concerned with resale as usually keep cars far too long.
Love the pirelli .... even the seats
Rang the dealer again and got different salesman who says the pirelli (silver 5dr, rear sensors not sat nav) is 49,999 demo with 3000K on clock seems extravagant as the mk6 I have ordered with 18s Xenon ACC etc is less then this (corp discount). I guess the 42-45K price I was initially told was a furphy.

However they have moved the pirelli off the floor as need thee space so maybe I can offer a lot less

[triode12]

Thanks for replies, all very helpful.
Should learn to use search engine before jumping in with new thread but great to get up to date advice.
Really just looking to get into GTI sooner as new to vw. I am not concerned with resale as usually keep cars far too long.
Love the pirelli .... even the seats
Rang the dealer again and got different salesman who says the pirelli (silver 5dr, rear sensors not sat nav) is 49,999 demo with 3000K on clock seems extravagant as the mk6 I have ordered with 18s Xenon ACC etc is less then this (corp discount). I guess the 42-45K price I was initially told was a furphy.

However they have moved the pirelli off the floor as need thee space so maybe I can offer a lot less


$50K is too much for one esp w/o satnav and in Silver.
Mine with satnav and rear parkers was $49K and that was with a trade in on which I received a good price for (this was 7mths ago).

[triode12]

I don't know about that triode12. The MKV is just as much "as common as muck" as the MKVI will ever be. And in my opinion, unfortunately the Pirelli may get lumped in with the regular MKV GTI just like the OP assumed. "end of the line publicity stunt". For enthusiasts, they will know better, but the general public will not I don't think. The Pirelli represents very good value for money in the current equation when comparing the MKVI GTI and Pirelli, but it comes at some sacrifice to taste (seats) and features (new bits on the MKVI). For outright performance you cant argue with the Pirelli's advantage and its own additions over the MKVI GTI such as turbo etc.

Exactly, the MKV GTI is a common sight while the Pirelli has subtle differences (subtlety VW is known for) like a different front lip and 18" Pirelli mags/P-zero tyres. You rarely see a Pirelli while you do lots of the regular MKV GTI and R32 (and even the R36).

While not as exclusive as the MkIV R32 (200 numbered units), it is pretty exclusive in it's own right.

The MKVI will follow the MkV's footsteps in a year of two -when people start receiving their orders.

To the OP - test drive both the Pirelli and MKVI back to back and tell us if which in your opinion is better.

[elisiX]

I saw a Black Pirelli today actually on my way back from lunch in Ultimo - looked great.

The subtle differences (wheels mostly) stood out to me and it was very nice.

[triode12]

I saw a Black Pirelli today actually on my way back from lunch in Ultimo - looked great.

The subtle differences (wheels mostly) stood out to me and it was very nice.

There are a few low km Pirellis on carsales at the moment.
You still have time to change/cancel your order... :)

[triode12]

I thought the only difference was the lack of Quattro/4WD.. but perhaps there's more to it?

The intercooler is different I believe.

[gareth_oau]

go the Pirelli I recon!!

Its a Audi S3 without AWD :) plus you chip it and it goes to like 220kw's!!!! :eek:

I'd have it over a mk6 any day of the week

OEM Pirelli is 169KW vs the OEM S3 at 188KW.

A difference like that must be more than just a tune, why would VW rob themselves of marketable KW if it was merely down to a tune (which would cost them the same to produce?)

[elisiX]

Good point Gareth.

And there's no chance I will be canceling my GTI order for a Pirelli... MKVI R perhaps. :)

[triode12]

Good point Gareth.

And there's no chance I will be canceling my GTI order for a Pirelli... MKVI R perhaps. :)

Go on... you know you want it. :)
You know you want to drive a real man's car....not one with all those sissy electronic aids.

[GoLfMan]

OEM Pirelli is 169KW vs the OEM S3 at 188KW.

A difference like that must be more than just a tune, why would VW rob themselves of marketable KW if it was merely down to a tune (which would cost them the same to produce?)

because it is a FWD and the mk5 was more than likely never designed for 188kw (although it handles it with ease!). Lets be honest, they build cars for the majority of drivers and the average jo isnt going to like handling a 188kw fwd hot hatch that boost's harder than ya mama after a curry night. Look at how Wheels and Motor complain about the MPS!

just like the Audi TTS vs. S3

same engine... but the TT has 12kw more!

[kryten2001]

OEM Pirelli is 169KW vs the OEM S3 at 188KW.

A difference like that must be more than just a tune, why would VW rob themselves of marketable KW if it was merely down to a tune (which would cost them the same to produce?)

It is the same. Engine internals, fuel pump and upgraded IC just the same as the S3..

Why the different tunes? To differentiate them. The S3 is still the 'premium' hatch and they didn't want a lowly golf to confuse/annoy S3 buyers.

To the OP, it depends what you want. If you like the look of the Mk6 and like its additional bits compared to the pirelli, then that's your baby..

On the other hand if you want something that can tear you a new backside with some minor mods with a bit of exclusivity, then the pirelli is your baby.

Have no doubt a minor modded pirelli will chew and spit out a stock Mk6 GTI. In fact, a stock one will too....

Here's mine:

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=33427&highlight=project+pirelli

[elisiX]

Have no doubt a minor modded pirelli will chew and spit out a stock Mk6 GTI. In fact, a stock one will too....


No ****!... lol look at your mods. And noone is saying the MKVI GTI will outrun a Pirelli MKV GTI... it wont. The Pirelli has the advantage there.

It's really simple - buy the MKVI GTI with new features (options) and updated (nicer) interior or the older established and proven Pirelli with extra power.

[triode12]

It is the same. Engine internals, fuel pump and upgraded IC just the same as the S3..

Why the different tunes? To differentiate them. The S3 is still the 'premium' hatch and they didn't want a lowly golf to confuse/annoy S3 buyers.

To the OP, it depends what you want. If you like the look of the Mk6 and like its additional bits compared to the pirelli, then that's your baby..

On the other hand if you want something that can tear you a new backside with some minor mods with a bit of exclusivity, then the pirelli is your baby.

Have no doubt a minor modded pirelli will chew and spit out a stock Mk6 GTI. In fact, a stock one will too....

Here's mine:

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=33427&highlight=project+pirelli

Kryten,

The Pirellis have the S3 intercooler? I didn't think that was the case..

[Nath]

Personally, and I know I'll take hits for this, I am not a fan of the Pirelli, I mean its a golf, but that interior with the stiching turns my stomach.

Yeah it has more power thats a given but well I just prefer to look and feel of the mk6, even the mk5, over the Pirelli.....

Aunt has one in Tassie, damn thing was brand new and she had all sorts of issues wouldnt start, then would, for about 2 months it was like a woman, then they worked out what was wrong and its been sweet since then, maybe thats part of the reason I got turned off them... no idea what was wrong either.

Anyway its a personal thing, as someone has suggested drive them back to back and then make your call.

*ducks incoming fire*

[Corey_R]

@GoLfMan and @kryten2001, whilst I'm not an expert on this subject matter, I still doubt it's because of the reasons you have stated - due to FWD or 'market differentiation' respectively.

If what you are both saying is true, then an ECU update from a company like APR or Oettinger who aren't phased by 300KW through the front wheels or concerned with 'market differentiation' should put the tune at 240KW / 435NM - but it isn't.

Although the S3 comes in at 188KW stock, and the TT-S comes in at 200KW stock, because they DEFINITELY have identical engines, after an ECU update they both have the 240KW / 435NM using the same update.

The Pirelli uses a different update and only has 229KW.
Therefore I'm certain there is some other different which hasn't been mentioned (or maybe it's the intercooler like triode12 stated?)

[GoLfMan]

@GoLfMan and @kryten2001, whilst I'm not an expert on this subject matter, I still doubt it's because of the reasons you have stated - due to FWD or 'market differentiation' respectively.

If what you are both saying is true, then an ECU update from a company like APR or Oettinger who aren't phased by 300KW through the front wheels or concerned with 'market differentiation' should put the tune at 240KW / 435NM - but it isn't.

Although the S3 comes in at 188KW stock, and the TT-S comes in at 200KW stock, because they DEFINITELY have identical engines, after an ECU update they both have the 240KW / 435NM using the same update.

The Pirelli uses a different update and only has 229KW.
Therefore I'm certain there is some other different which hasn't been mentioned (or maybe it's the intercooler like triode12 stated?)
I think its some miscellaneous parts that differ, but im CERTAIN that the Pirelli has the same engine as the S3 :)

[Corey_R]

Personally, and I know I'll take hits for this, I am not a fan of the Pirelli, I mean its a golf, but that interior with the stiching turns my stomach.

Yeah it has more power thats a given but well I just prefer to look and feel of the mk6, even the mk5, over the Pirelli.....

No need to duck, I agree 100% :)


I think its some miscellaneous parts that differ, but im CERTAIN that the Pirelli has the same engine as the S3 :)

Fair enough, cheers :)

[kryten2001]

It's really simple - buy the MKVI GTI with new features (options) and updated (nicer) interior or the older established and proven Pirelli with extra power.

Isn't that what I kinda said?

I reckon the relli's interior looks bloody brilliant myself...!

[kryten2001]

Kryten,

The Pirellis have the S3 intercooler? I didn't think that was the case..

yeah it is. I've seen pics of regular GTIs that have had their intercoolers upgraded. What came out of those looks nothing like what came out of mine..

The IC I've got sitting in a box in my shed is almost the same size as the upgraded APR IC. The only difference (dimensionally) is thickness.

[tinto]

S3 has different cams apparently.
As for the stitching... it's a comical complaint that i've heard plenty of times, but how often do you look at your wheel/seat when you're driving?
I see it as basically the same as the red - just as crap, just as cool.

plus, it is clearly quite disgusting on a lambo...

http://z.about.com/d/exoticcars/1/0/E/7/-/-/Lambo-Gallardo-LP560-4-seat.JPG

[Corey_R]

So kryten2001, what do you think the different is between them which requires different ECU's and power levels from the aftermarket tuners?

[triode12]

yeah it is. I've seen pics of regular GTIs that have had their intercoolers upgraded. What came out of those looks nothing like what came out of mine..

The IC I've got sitting in a box in my shed is almost the same size as the upgraded APR IC. The only difference (dimensionally) is thickness.

I see! woohoo! :banana:

[kryten2001]

@GoLfMan and @kryten2001, whilst I'm not an expert on this subject matter, I still doubt it's because of the reasons you have stated - due to FWD or 'market differentiation' respectively.

....

The Pirelli uses a different update and only has 229KW.
Therefore I'm certain there is some other different which hasn't been mentioned (or maybe it's the intercooler like triode12 stated?)

Beleive it if you see it measured on a dyno. Personally I think half these numbers are made up.

The engine is from a S3 though, as is virtually all the running gear. The idea behind the pirelli was to run out the last few thousand GTI's, and the best way to do it was to slot in bits they had in the 'spare parts bin'....

The S3 has a 2.0T and a K04.. So does the relli.. The engine internals (which aren't a huge difference) are the same. Fuel pump too, not that it would make much difference.

There may be subtle differences in the tune (who knows, guy maybe?) but it's the same hardware.

[kryten2001]

So kryten2001, what do you think the different is between them which requires different ECU's and power levels from the aftermarket tuners?

Who knows? programming for the DSG/AWD, different fuelling/shift points, different exhaust configuration?

I have no idea...

Personally that area is a huge black box to me. I had to get different tunes on my car with/without the exhaust - so there's clearly other differences out there...

I'm not the one to ask - this question is best left to the tuners.. But the hardware spec is the same, including (tinto) I'm pretty sure the cams too.

I wish i'd kept the resource (I read it quite some time ago) but the list of hardware upgrades on the engine, as well as an press article that explained the grafting from the S3, left no doubt whatsoever.

[triode12]

So kryten2001, what do you think the different is between them which requires different ECU's and power levels from the aftermarket tuners?

Ahem...marketing?

[Nath]

S3 has different cams apparently.
As for the stitching... it's a comical complaint that i've heard plenty of times, but how often do you look at your wheel/seat when you're driving?
I see it as basically the same as the red - just as crap, just as cool.

plus, it is clearly quite disgusting on a lambo...

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/

Just because its in a Lambo doesnt make it any more appealing, as the saying goes, just because you have money doesnt mean you have taste. :P

[elisiX]

Maybe the Audi badge makes the S3 more powerful than the Pirelli. :emo_baghead: :D

I think the point still stands - why would the tuners give a ****? They're not going to differentiate the Pirelli from the S3/TTS because of 'marketing'.

[kryten2001]

Maybe the Audi badge makes the S3 more powerful than the Pirelli. :emo_baghead: :D

I think the point still stands - why would the tuners give a ****? They're not going to differentiate the Pirelli from the S3/TTS because of 'marketing'.

Yeah mate I really dunno. There has to be other reasons not limited purely to the engine that could cause it.. I also seem to recall reading the Aus pirelli and the overseas pirellis ALSO have different tunes. Something to do with heat or something?....

A tuner could answer the question better than I ever could, I wouldn't have the foggiest.

If you think about it logically, why would VW pull apart a 2.0T to change components on an engine it already had coming down the production line for a S3..... They don't, they do it via a tune...

Good luck getting the answer officially from VAG though....

Anyhoo...... To the OP, depends on your criteria.. It's a tough question to answer.... Depends entirely on what appeals to you, really....

[triode12]

Just because its in a Lambo doesnt make it any more appealing, as the saying goes, just because you have money doesnt mean you have taste. :P

Is that the reason you ended up with the MKVI GTI then? :rolleyes:

[kryten2001]

Just because its in a Lambo doesnt make it any more appealing, as the saying goes, just because you have money doesnt mean you have taste. :P

Lambos are all about being over the top/lary though, so it's fitting.

Personally I think lambos have both everything a sports car should - and shouldn't have...

Made to go, and go well, but the styling is for people who need to tell the world how rich they are. I think they're vulgar....

[tinto]

^ JUST LIKE THE PIRELL...oh wait a sec...

[kryten2001]

^ JUST LIKE THE PIRELL...oh wait a sec...

haha yeah yeah yeah... I could have seen that coming from a mile off..... I shoulda known before I posted it!

Well I reckon the interior is nice. Looks bloody good to me.

If I bought a Mk6 GTI as a second car, would you then consider my opinion more worthy?

If I bought a Mk6 GTI it wouldn't stay stock for long though.. haha....

[Nath]

Is that the reason you ended up with the MKVI GTI then? :rolleyes:

Lol, and nothing to do you you buying a pirelli of course.... :P

Anyway who cares it personal taste, which is exactly that personal....

As for Lambos I agree they are exactly what a sports car should be and what they shouldnt be, up there with the Zonda in over the top in your face look at me'ism

[Guy_H]

Engines S3 - Pirelli:

http://www.my-gti.com/546/differences-between-vw-golf-edition-30-vw-golf-pirelli-audi-s3-and-seat-leon-cupra-r-engines

Very similar - same turbo / fuel system etc.

BIG DIFFERENCE:

Compression ratio, the S3 has lower compression than the Pirelli (ED30), therefore a little more timing & boost & bingo - more HP.

Also the intercooler is ever so slightly different in thickness :)

Both are awesome engines

[kryten2001]

Engines S3 - Pirelli:

http://www.my-gti.com/546/differences-between-vw-golf-edition-30-vw-golf-pirelli-audi-s3-and-seat-leon-cupra-r-engines

Very similar - same turbo / fuel system etc.

BIG DIFFERENCE:

Compression ratio, the S3 has lower compression than the Pirelli (ED30), therefore a little more timing & boost & bingo - more HP.

Also the intercooler is ever so slightly different in thickness :)

Both are awesome engines

Well there you go...

What's used to give different compression ratios guy (in terms of hardware)...

[GeorgeS3]

Guys,

I think you will find that the difference comes down to the engine code which the ecu uses. The Pirelli / S3 / TTS and golf R will all have different ecu code which is why when they are in tuned form they differ. Ultimately it is the same engine with very slight differences which Guy can probably elaborate more on.

I don't beleive the Pirelli was entirely just to run out the last few thousand GTI's as this engine is going into the golf R and it may have been the basis for initial testing prior to the MkVI.

The standard MKVI GTI is a completely different engine to the new Golf R.

[kryten2001]

I don't beleive the Pirelli was entirely just to run out the last few thousand GTI's as this engine is going into the golf R and it may have been the basis for initial testing prior to the MkVI.


Hey George long time no speak.

Sorry I meant to say Mk5/GTI Shells, not engines.. Obviously the engine would continue in the S3 and now onto the R......

I know the pirelli didn't make it to the UK or the US.. They were having a big cry about it at the time.. Of course we didn't get the Edn 30's.....

[GeorgeS3]

Kryten,

Get that car of your's back out to the track, we are still waiting.

There was a Yellow 2 door at Eastern Creek about 4 wks ago which was completely stock. His best run on the night was a 13.9s 1/4 mile.

[Brian]

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/private/details.aspx?R=7711049&__sid=11E937D5C00D&__Qpb=true&Cr=0&__Ns=pCar_RankSort_Int32|1||pCar_PriceSort_Decimal |1||pCar_Make_String|0||pCar_Model_String|0&keywords=&__N=1216%201247%201282%201252%201246%204294962746% 204294962677%204294789929&seot=1&__Nne=15&trecs=7&silo=1011

How's this for a value buy :rolleyes: Would make me think twice about a MKVI GTI stocker. If you dont want the gadgets then go for the basic car with a few Ks on it then if you think it needs touching up then you've got 10 large in your pocket to play with!

[kryten2001]

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/private/details.aspx?R=7711049&__sid=11E937D5C00D&__Qpb=true&Cr=0&__Ns=pCar_RankSort_Int32|1||pCar_PriceSort_Decimal |1||pCar_Make_String|0||pCar_Model_String|0&keywords=&__N=1216%201247%201282%201252%201246%204294962746% 204294962677%204294789929&seot=1&__Nne=15&trecs=7&silo=1011

How's this for a value buy :rolleyes: Would make me think twice about a MKVI GTI stocker. If you dont want the gadgets then go for the basic car with a few Ks on it then if you think it needs touching up then you've got 10 large in your pocket to play with!

But be warned if you get the bug, $10k won't last you long!

[kryten2001]

http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/private/details.aspx?R=7711049&__sid=11E937D5C00D&__Qpb=true&Cr=0&__Ns=pCar_RankSort_Int32|1||pCar_PriceSort_Decimal |1||pCar_Make_String|0||pCar_Model_String|0&keywords=&__N=1216%201247%201282%201252%201246%204294962746% 204294962677%204294789929&seot=1&__Nne=15&trecs=7&silo=1011

How's this for a value buy :rolleyes: Would make me think twice about a MKVI GTI stocker. If you dont want the gadgets then go for the basic car with a few Ks on it then if you think it needs touching up then you've got 10 large in your pocket to play with!

Wow that's a bloody good buy. Mine was loaded up with every option available on the pirelli (sat nav, xenons, rear parkers and is a 5 door) but it cost a clear $20k more than that.... That's a bargain.

No comments about the yellow guys. It's hot.

[Brian]

Wow that's a bloody good buy. Mine was loaded up with every option available on the pirelli (sat nav, xenons, rear parkers and is a 5 door) but it cost a clear $20k more than that.... That's a bargain.

No comments about the yellow guys. It's hot.

I think the colour scheme inside and out is great, if only I could unload the TSI for 40k :goodluck:

[kryten2001]

I think the colour scheme inside and out is great, if only I could unload the TSI for 40k :goodluck:

If I had the wampum I'd buy this one, keep it stock and go fully loco on my existing car... Strip it out, turbo it up.

Instead I'm humming and harring a project polo. I've seen some pretty hot stuff done to those too.... Getting crazy numbers out of them.

[tinto]

If I bought a Mk6 GTI as a second car, would you then consider my opinion more worthy?


Hahaha you know what I drive, I was taking the pi55 out of all of us :)

[Corey_R]

Engines S3 - Pirelli:

http://www.my-gti.com/546/differences-between-vw-golf-edition-30-vw-golf-pirelli-audi-s3-and-seat-leon-cupra-r-engines

Very similar - same turbo / fuel system etc.

BIG DIFFERENCE:

Compression ratio, the S3 has lower compression than the Pirelli (ED30), therefore a little more timing & boost & bingo - more HP.

Also the intercooler is ever so slightly different in thickness :)

Both are awesome engines

Thanks Guy, I thought there must be a valid mechnical reason for the difference in power, and turns out there is. Cheers :)

[lawsy82]

Wow that's a bloody good buy. Mine was loaded up with every option available on the pirelli (sat nav, xenons, rear parkers and is a 5 door) but it cost a clear $20k more than that.... That's a bargain.

No comments about the yellow guys. It's hot.

That car is practically brand new - what do u guys think of yellow??

I reckon if u could pick that up for $37,500 - $38,000 would be a good deal. $10K less than the new GTI Golf

[kryten2001]

Thanks Guy, I thought there must be a valid mechnical reason for the difference in power, and turns out there is. Cheers :)

How is this difference achieved? As simple as a different head gasket or something more radical?

I don't understand how both could have the exact same displacement and a different compression ratio if the mechanicals are essentially the same....

I know Guy has the answer as they run (I'm fairly sure) a reduced compression ratio on the Stage III big turbo golfs... Is that right Guy?

[Corey_R]

The yellow on the Pirelli's is rather unique. It's sorta halfway between a pastel and vibrant yellow. I don't think that it's a bad shade for a yellow, but not my thing. Still, I couldn't get past the interior ;)

[elisiX]

The yellow isn't my problem, the tyre tread is.

Exterior color is great IMO.

[kryten2001]

The yellow on the Pirelli's is rather unique. It's sorta halfway between a pastel and vibrant yellow. I don't think that it's a bad shade for a yellow, but not my thing. Still, I couldn't get past the interior ;)

Same yellow as the beetle aint it (not all that unique!)....

But very unique on a golf body, obviously......

[kryten2001]

The yellow isn't my problem, the tyre tread is.


It actually looks really nice in the flesh compared to pictures. A lot more subtle than you'd think... But yeah I'm obviously somewhat biased. I actually prefer it to the tartan, and far prefer it to leather.

[backdoc]

It actually looks really nice in the flesh compared to pictures. A lot more subtle than you'd think... But yeah I'm obviously somewhat biased. I actually prefer it to the tartan, and far prefer it to leather.

Biased! :P

[kryten2001]

Biased! :P

Like I said in another post, I think I'd have to buy a Mk6 to make my opinion worth anything to mk6 owners. We're all biased!

But honestly, if I had to do it all again and had the choice of both, I'd still pick the pirelli. Even if you give the styling away to the Mk6 (which I don't), it's still worth it on the mechanicals alone.

Now if you were talking Golf R vs Pirelli, there's a valid debate. Something tells me I'll be tempted too (as in get the R as well as keep the pirelli) - but I think the chances are I'll likely go down another path altogether to mix it up a little...

I've spent serious _serious_ money on the pirelli, so I suspect I'll have it for quite some time yet - likely alongside another hot somethingorother a few years from now.

[tinto]

Now if you were talking Golf R vs Pirelli, there's a valid debate. .

This man speaks the truth.
The 'same engine' makes the R model a bit of a tease... especially as a lot of the gear currently on my k04 car is likely to be transportable to a Golf R but not in any way that is different enough on a bog standard mk6 GTI. An electronic diff and some wacky suspension isn't enough (especially when I'm already on KW V3).
All that power through 4 wheels is a nice, devious plan.

[kryten2001]

This man speaks the truth.
The 'same engine' makes the R model a bit of a tease... especially as a lot of the gear currently on my k04 car is likely to be transportable to a Golf R but not in any way that is different enough on a bog standard mk6 GTI. An electronic diff and some wacky suspension isn't enough (especially when I'm already on KW V3).
All that power through 4 wheels is a nice, devious plan.

I'd like to see how the R goes when driven REAL hard before I made up my mind..

I've got my pirelli dialled in just right. No front end push at all and power is more than ample. The rear breaks away first under very heavy cornering, so it's a purler to drive and control when on the edge..

It'd still give an R a run for it's money even if it is a AWD..

That being said, a monster-tuned R would be a very very nice piece of kit. Then again, so would a monstrously tuned S3 - and for me I could probably get away with owning an Audi and a Golf rather than two golfs.. haha...

They're all good, have no doubt about it.. Just depends on what you like best...

No offence to Mk6 owners (we're all dubbers) but GTI's are extremely common... A Pirelli is a very special edition and always will be... Sure it won't be appreciated by the greater audience out there - but who cares. The greater audience doesn't appreciate/know how good dubs are in the first place... That's part of their appeal!

[kryten2001]

This man speaks the truth.
The 'same engine' makes the R model a bit of a tease... especially as a lot of the gear currently on my k04 car is likely to be transportable to a Golf R but not in any way that is different enough on a bog standard mk6 GTI. An electronic diff and some wacky suspension isn't enough (especially when I'm already on KW V3).
All that power through 4 wheels is a nice, devious plan.

You get those V3's dialled in just right Tinto and you won't beleive what you can get away with. Electronic diff/wacky suspension comes second to having a car that can go 100km/h around corners you'd expect to go 30km/h around... It's just crazy I tell you..... No squeel, no roll and no peel.... Just boogie.

I've picked a bend I know real well, and I've progressively gone faster and faster around it... The setup was just bang on. My physical limits, rather than the cars, prevented me from going faster.. I'm not kidding, I was having trouble staying put in the car - I would have needed race seats to go any faster.

And the best part is that the first thing to let go is the rear. I love that. I hate front end push.

The combination of KW V3s and that excellent rubber is a killer combination. Your eyeballs will pop out the side of your head before your car will let go. Unless your car literally lives on the track, the upgrade to R specs is pointless - it's all in the suspension setup.

For those about to mod their car - power is obviously brilliant and very important, but all the fun comes from upgrading the brakes and the suspension and getting them dialled in just the way you like them. A heap of power on sloppy/badly setup suspension or poor brakes just makes the whole deal a waste of time......

[triode12]

Lol, and nothing to do you you buying a pirelli of course.... :P

Anyway who cares it personal taste, which is exactly that personal....

As for Lambos I agree they are exactly what a sports car should be and what they shouldnt be, up there with the Zonda in over the top in your face look at me'ism

:nana:

Lambos are nice but the Zondas are just butt ugly to me.

[Guy_H]

How is this difference achieved? As simple as a different head gasket or something more radical?

I don't understand how both could have the exact same displacement and a different compression ratio if the mechanicals are essentially the same....

I know Guy has the answer as they run (I'm fairly sure) a reduced compression ratio on the Stage III big turbo golfs... Is that right Guy?


I have never bothered to look up the standard parts as when we rebuild, we name the CR & buy aftermarket parts to suit.

My guess would be different pistons!

[kryten2001]

I have never bothered to look up the standard parts as when we rebuild, we name the CR & buy aftermarket parts to suit.

My guess would be different pistons!

yeah pistons would be the most obvious conclusion for a big ratio difference, but you can get small steps with a different head gasket and/or valving can't you? What is the difference? Significant?

Just doesn't make sense with what I've read... I guess there's a bloke called werner or gunter somewhere in Germany who knows....

[Corey_R]

The combination of KW V3s and that excellent rubber is a killer combination. Your eyeballs will pop out the side of your head before your car will let go. Unless your car literally lives on the track, the upgrade to R specs is pointless - it's all in the suspension setup.

Sorry for me being an ignoramous - but what is a KW V3?
Also, what tyres are you running/think is 'excellent rubber' ?

Cheers.

[kryten2001]

Sorry for me being an ignoramous - but what is a KW V3?
Also, what tyres are you running/think is 'excellent rubber' ?

Cheers.

KW Coilovers, variant 3. Suspension.

http://www.kw-suspension.co.uk/variant-3.htm

Rubber is Pirelli P Zeros.

http://www.jaxquickfit.com.au/other-tyre-news-pirelli-new-zero.htm

Not as good traction as say, an advan R spec, but with suspension that's set up correctly it's all academic on the road. Like I said I've pushed them about as far as I can personally handle before I puke. The problem with the standard suspension is that it doesn't let the tyre do it's work properly - so on OEM/poor suspension you'll never realise just how good these tyres (and most performance tyres, for that matter) are.

edit: I'm sure there are plenty of other good combinations out there, as there's quite a few very good coilover manufacturers and tyre manufacturers....

[kryten2001]

My guess would be different pistons!

Not that I'm interested... well.. much.. but what options are available for the Mk5 in the piston/conrod/bearings department?

Is it as simple as good forged pistons, or is there a titanium option too?... less resistance = faster revving and a quicker/steeper power curve for any given amount of time......

That's exactly what they do in the m/cycle world anyway... I'm presuming this translates to high performance/high revving turbo car engines too...

[Corey_R]

Thanks kryten2001 :D

[Guy_H]

yeah pistons would be the most obvious conclusion for a big ratio difference, but you can get small steps with a different head gasket and/or valving can't you? What is the difference? Significant?

Just doesn't make sense with what I've read... I guess there's a bloke called werner or gunter somewhere in Germany who knows....

Early GTI's (AXX) 10.5:1
Later BWA's 10.3:1
BYD Pirelli - cant remember but somewhere in between here
BHZ S3 9.5:1

on an FSI motor a little compression change goes a long way

[gareth_oau]

The yellow isn't my problem, the tyre tread is.

Exterior color is great IMO.

just get the seats retrimmed, only cost $1-2k

[kryten2001]

just get the seats retrimmed, only cost $1-2k

Or get reccaros. Even better.

[tinto]

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111634

apr stage 4 teaser

[paolob]

this thread got hijacked a few pages ago hahah
anyway my opinion is to go with the pirelli because of the stated reasons:
- colour-coded
- body-kit makes it look meaner
- different wheels
- k04 (especially if youre into modding!)
- etc...
BUT! if i were to do it again, id choose the golf r32 or r36 and put a crazy exhaust on it (capristo or kreissig). Im two ways between the new r thou. On one hand the awd, LED lights, better interior is an improvement i really like, but to me it still looks like a standard mk6 from the front and they say the mk6 is too refined so wont give the rawness of the mk5.
but yeah i also couldnt afford any of these other options either hahah i will most likely keep this car for awhilleee and my next car would probably be an m3 once i hit it big then r8 yo :rolleyes:

[Corey_R]

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111634

apr stage 4 teaser

HOLY CRAP!

The APR Stage III GTI has ~300KW and 515NM - so that must have way more.
300kph+ in a FWD GTI must be hilarious :D

[kryten2001]

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111634

apr stage 4 teaser

Oh sweet mother....

Check engine light, check engine light!......

OK Guy come on, what's this all about.

[Corey_R]

The 'Check engine light' is only a temporary thing which they say will be fixed in the final product.

[Guy_H]

I'll let you know when I'm over there driving it next month :)

[Corey_R]

Heh, lucky you!

Also, I take it from that video that APR have a DSG flash or something coming soon.

[kryten2001]

I'll let you know when I'm over there driving it next month :)

You gotta let us know when/how much... This looks fantastic..

There's gotta be engine internals, surely... At least pistons/rods/bearings (cam/valves?)....

If not, then I dunno how long a stock engine would last running that sort of power..... Crazy.....

God bless APR. This is fantastic....

[tinto]

I thought the acceleration looked decent until I realised it was in MPH.
Decent -> devastating.

[kryten2001]

I thought the acceleration looked decent until I realised it was in MPH.
Decent -> devastating.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/startreksscotty-1.jpg

SHE'S GONNA BLOW CAPTAIN!

[tinto]

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/2m8BXUfrin7x81ygtWPKU0Vbo1_500-1.jpg

[kryten2001]

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs034.snc1/4320_80087338373_804113373_1633310_415994_n.jpg

[elisiX]

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/

lol what the F......... :P

[cme2c]

The 'Check engine light' is only a temporary thing which they say will be fixed in the final product.

I got that, but I don't get the glowplug light.

[pom829]

I'm after some feedback as to what is the better car both for value and handling/drive.:confused:

I looking at selling my car privately and I've seen some nice example of Pirellis out there for about $40,000 with about 15000Km(with Sat Nav, rear sensors, 18"wheesl standard, part leather seats) or should I spend around the $48500 mark for a standard mk6 GTI.
Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Corey_R]

I'll jump on this one first.

Buy what you want, the only person you need to satisfy is yourself.

Beyond that, there is already threads about MKV vs MK6. There are already threads about MK6 GTI vs MK6 R - and from them you can take discussion about the engine and power delivery of the R as a guide for the Pirelli, because they share the same engine, but with slightly different ECU tuning.

As you'll be able to see from those threads, and others on these types of topics, the discussions are heated. So we don't really need another one of these threads :)