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Stoney!
26-07-2009, 02:53 AM
My mate just picked up his 103TDi the other day and I went for a ride in it, very impressed. One thing that worried me though (in the lead up to getting my mk 6 with sunroof) was that when I opened the sunroof (slide not tilt) there was a wind buffering type sound like you would hear with the rear windows down, but it was absolutely deafening around 30 - 40k's (I think) opened to a certain extent.

Does anyone else have this problem, I'm wondering if I should cancel the sunroof before it is made, or if this is a problem that my friend should be taking back to the dealer....

Thanks,

FJ Steve
26-07-2009, 08:24 AM
try opening the rear or front windows a couple of cm/mm

makes all the difference.

STV4SYT
26-07-2009, 09:37 AM
How far back was it open, i know in my mk 5 if i turn the opener to the first notch it is fine if i open it fully i get a lot of buffeting.

In any case the tilt is the bit that will get used most anyway, i tilt mine rain hail or shine as i like the added air circulation..

Umai Naa!!
26-07-2009, 07:26 PM
My old Commodore used to do the same thing, so I never bothered opening it.

I've driven a MK4 around town (up to 90klm/hr) with the sunroof wide-open, and it was quiet as.

If I get hold of a MK6 with a sunroof during the week, I'll take it for a spin with it open, and let you know.

cktsi
26-07-2009, 09:56 PM
I think it's just physics at play. Like you say, when the rear windows are open, the air circulation creates a pressure that creates those sound waves... don't mean to sound so nerdy...

Good news is in my comfortline mk6, the first 3 or 4 notches don't create the buffeting with all the windows up. Any setting beyond 4 - open requires only the rear windows to be open a few cm. If you set it to fully retracted (including the sunblind), I have found all windows need to be open.

Thinking about it from a psychological standpoint, the whole reason for getting a sunroof is having that "wind in the hair" sensation and air swirling in the cabin. Having the sunroof open and not the windows doesn't complete the experience anyway and is a bit like driving a convertible with the roof up all the time.

Am I happy with the sunroof?

You bet

:biggrin:

Don't think about it - just order it... or you'll be kicking yourself like I did when I got my mk5 & didn't negotiate the sunroof into the deal.

guliver_twist
27-07-2009, 01:55 AM
didn't think much of sunroof till I got 1 with my golf and must say that i love it.. I think all my future cars will come with one..

Corey_R
27-07-2009, 12:04 PM
Like everyone has said - the rear windows down 1cm is all it takes to remove the buffering.

I loved the sunroof on my 3dr GTI... unfortunately it don't have rear windows which meant the buffering sound was unavoidable once you were over around 80km (or over 50km without the front windows down about 1 cm)

Craig
30-07-2009, 04:53 PM
This is all because the air foil at the front of the sunroof does not project up far enough to deflect air moving over the roof and being sucked into the cabin. I had a Forester and an Outback with sunroofs and never got any buffering inside the cabin when the roof was open. I think because of the tilt function they don't have a big front air deflector which is what they need. VW must make a pretty air tight cabin as you do need to open the rear windows a fraction to let the air deflect out of the cabin. I need to do this with my Passat

Corey_R
07-08-2009, 04:59 PM
BMW's also have a tilt function and don't have the same buffering issue. If you notice though, their wind deflector is quite an interesting and different design.

Lima
12-08-2009, 11:06 PM
Don't mean to state the obvious, but on the Mk4 and Mk5 there is a larger dot about 4/5ths around the dial. That is the "comfort position" or something like that. When driving that is supposedly the best opening position. Certainly opening it all the way back would create the buffeting.

Having said that, in both our Mk4 and Mk5 there is some buffeting. Oddly, though, the Mk4 would buffet at speeds over about 60-70km/h but not below. Our Mk5 buffets a bit at around 40-50km/h but is fine once over that speed.

When test driving S3s I gave the sunroof a good work out and it seemed fine at any speed. Hopefully that wasn't a one off!

Corey_R
13-08-2009, 11:49 AM
Yeah - my comments about the buffets were in that 'comfort position'. It's worse on the 3dr because of there not being any rear windows to crack.

Lima
13-08-2009, 12:32 PM
Yeah - my comments about the buffets were in that 'comfort position'. It's worse on the 3dr because of there not being any rear windows to crack.

I find ours is fine if you drop one (or both) of the front windows by an inch or so.

cktsi
13-08-2009, 09:07 PM
Don't mean to state the obvious, but on the Mk4 and Mk5 there is a larger dot about 4/5ths around the dial. That is the "comfort position" or something like that. When driving that is supposedly the best opening position. Certainly opening it all the way back would create the buffeting.

Having said that, in both our Mk4 and Mk5 there is some buffeting. Oddly, though, the Mk4 would buffet at speeds over about 60-70km/h but not below. Our Mk5 buffets a bit at around 40-50km/h but is fine once over that speed.

When test driving S3s I gave the sunroof a good work out and it seemed fine at any speed. Hopefully that wasn't a one off!

I read your comment & took a look at my switch tonight. The Mark 6 doesn't have a comfort marking.

However, what you said correlates with my experience that there's no buffeting until after around the 4th notch.

The buffeting only happens at low speeds <40kph. On the freeway driving at a constant 100kph, doesn't matter where the sunroof position is - no buffeting.

moniker
23-05-2010, 08:12 PM
It's virtually impossible to drive at any speed above about 30km/h without SEVERE drumming in my 103TDI.
You can minimise the drumming a little by putting another window down, but this is one big failing of the Mk VI that maybe they don't even test - being driven with the driver's window down.

Brendan_A
23-05-2010, 08:15 PM
Easy fix. Drive with the windows up.

xblode
23-05-2010, 08:37 PM
I agree. A couple of times, I've been caught out when hoping on a freeway and by the time I close the window or open the others, I feel like my head is gonna explode!

My MK4GTI suffered as well but not like this :(

velly_16v_cab
23-05-2010, 08:41 PM
i know at ford (where i work) we do not test for whid noise with the windows open.

how do i know?
I test our cars and the competitors cars

Corey_R
23-05-2010, 09:11 PM
It's virtually impossible to drive at any speed above about 30km/h without SEVERE drumming in my 103TDI.
You can minimise the drumming a little by putting another window down, but this is one big failing of the Mk VI that maybe they don't even test - being driven with the driver's window down.

The MKV wasn't much better. Question is though, in this day and age with so many cars on the road, it's not like you're getting "fresh air" by having the windows open... so why not drive with them up?

But it's no secret that the car manufacturers are designing the cars to be as aerodynamic and sleek as possible to get the greatest fuel efficiency etc. Having the windows open "breaks the surface" and causes the wind buffeting. In the old days the cars were not at all aerodynamic, and so the wind would be "broken" at the front of the car - hence there wasn't any issues driving around with the windows open. (Yes, this is a very simplistic explanation of the situation...)

MurphyTheElf
23-05-2010, 10:06 PM
I drive with the windows down all the time - Perth's air is a little fresher than the bigger capitals, you see. :P

The buffeting occurs only in certain conditions, but definitely not all the time. I find that with only the driver's window down, it doesn't really occur that often. Opening the sunroof changes the buffeting conditions as well. If a rear window and the sunroof is down, it can be pretty bad at particular speeds.

When it does happen, it's quite jarring and annoying, but it's something I can change so it doesn't worry me too much. The acceleration rattling noise bothers me so much more because it happens all the time windows up or down and there's nothing I can do to stop it short of spending 9 grand on an APR Stage 3.

G-rig
23-05-2010, 10:14 PM
Does stage 3 fix the rattle?

The wind noise was a bit loud today with two window down slightly but think it was just a windy day.

MurphyTheElf
23-05-2010, 10:42 PM
Does stage 3 fix the rattle?


New turbo, new wastegate. Problem solvered.

G-rig
24-05-2010, 06:53 AM
New turbo, new wastegate. Problem solvered.

When are you getting it :D?

BBP
24-05-2010, 07:41 AM
Coreying: The MKV wasn't much better. Question is though, in this day and age with so many cars on the road, it's not like you're getting "fresh air" by having the windows open... so why not drive with them up?

Using that logic there is no need for sliding windows at all !

And all those people in the world who live outside heavily congested cities who like driving with the windows down don't matter. And anyway, the air you breathe with the windows up comes from somewhere. It comes from outside. So unless you want to inhale stale air from having the ventilation on recirculate constantly, you basically have the same problem.

Buffeting is a major annoyance. Loads of other car manufacturers are able to design aerodynamic shapes without excessive buffeting, so VW should just fix it.

G-rig
24-05-2010, 08:01 AM
Why don't you just put the two front windows down the same amount, or the back ones too for that matter to get a nice airflow happening?

Seems like people are getting very fussy if things aren't perfect on these cars.. maybe a Honda or Toyota would have been better..

Ps weathershields may help?

HereGoes
24-05-2010, 08:31 AM
Really? I do highway driving, country driving, city driving and i have found the exact opposite! In fact it was one of the things that impressed me on the test drive!

I drive with the drivers window fully down and the back right window about a quarter down and i barely get more than an nice breeze and the full sound of the engine?

As for having no windows... HELL NO... i always drive with mine down on country trips and in summer, experience the smells and sounds of the area around you not the sterile capsule of the car =)

Corey_R
24-05-2010, 08:58 AM
Using that logic there is no need for sliding windows at all !
That's taking things a bit far. You still need to have sliding windows to talk to the police officiers after getting pulled over for speeding, or getting your McDonalds in the drive thru, or giving other drivers the bird for holding you up by driving too slow etc....


And all those people in the world who live outside heavily congested cities who like driving with the windows down don't matter. And anyway, the air you breathe with the windows up comes from somewhere. It comes from outside. So unless you want to inhale stale air from having the ventilation on recirculate constantly, you basically have the same problem.
Yeah - it comes through Pollen and Charcol filters through the aircon system. Last I saw (on the way to work this morning), I didn't see any people driving around with masks on their faces with their window rolled down ;)


Why don't you just put the two front windows down the same amount, or the back ones too for that matter to get a nice airflow happening?

Seems like people are getting very fussy if things aren't perfect on these cars.. maybe a Honda or Toyota would have been better..

Ps weathershields may help?
Yeah, this is my feeling reading all the posts in this forum (and I do read all of them!)


Really? I do highway driving, country driving, city driving and i have found the exact opposite! In fact it was one of the things that impressed me on the test drive!

I drive with the drivers window fully down and the back right window about a quarter down and i barely get more than an nice breeze and the full sound of the engine?
Yeah - I remember Fifth Gear showing that even in a wind tunnel, the MK6 is free from buffeting... but as you've stated, it's reliant on how the other windows are set.

AdamD
24-05-2010, 09:34 AM
You still need to have sliding windows to talk to the police officiers after getting pulled over for speeding, or getting your McDonalds in the drive thru, or giving other drivers the bird for holding you up by driving too slow etc....

ROFL! Glad to hear you're using your windows for exactly the purposes VW envisaged Corey! ;)

Maverick
24-05-2010, 10:18 AM
Using that logic there is no need for sliding windows at all !

Really there isn't, I always drive with my windows up and only open my windows for car parks.


And all those people in the world who live outside heavily congested cities who like driving with the windows down don't matter. And anyway, the air you breathe with the windows up comes from somewhere. It comes from outside. So unless you want to inhale stale air from having the ventilation on recirculate constantly, you basically have the same problem.

The car defaults to drawing in air from outside which is filtered so why increase your fuel consumption by driving with the windows down.


Buffeting is a major annoyance. Loads of other car manufacturers are able to design aerodynamic shapes without excessive buffeting, so VW should just fix it.

Why should they change the design of the car to suit a group of people that can't be flapped adjusting the windows to suit their application? The vast majority of people drive with their windows up all the time.

The Golf is one of the only two cars in Australia that get 4 stars for forward visibility. Changing the A pillar and surrounding areas would compromise this.
The car is aerodynamic to minimise fuel consumption, changing it to suit the few people that like to drive with the windows down would compromise this.

How about the few people that want to drive with the windows down compromise instead and buy a weathershield or crack open another window?

Corey_R
24-05-2010, 10:27 AM
The car defaults to drawing in air from outside which is filtered so why increase your fuel consumption by driving with the windows down.

The Golf is one of the only two cars in Australia that get 4 stars for forward visibility. Changing the A pillar and surrounding areas would compromise this.
The car is aerodynamic to minimise fuel consumption, changing it to suit the few people that like to drive with the windows down would compromise this.

How about the few people that want to drive with the windows down compromise instead and buy a weathershield or crack open another window?

Some good points there. I didn't know about the Golf being one of the two cars in Australia with a 4 star forward visibility rating - that's cool, and always great to have some quantifiable measurement. I wish it were easier to have a discussion about the aerodynamics, but I find it very hard to find any information about the aerodynamic efficiencies of various cars, and even more difficult to find uniform measurement practices.

Maverick
24-05-2010, 10:29 AM
ROFL! Glad to hear you're using your windows for exactly the purposes VW envisaged Corey! ;)

I leave my windows up when I communicate with other drivers

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/8048/theangryguybyproz0r1dx.jpg

You never know when some :furious: nutter will try and ram his :fist: down your throat.

BBP
24-05-2010, 10:33 AM
Really there isn't, I always drive with my windows up and only open my windows for car parks.



The car defaults to drawing in air from outside which is filtered so why increase your fuel consumption by driving with the windows down.



Why should they change the design of the car to suit a group of people that can't be flapped adjusting the windows to suit their application? The vast majority of people drive with their windows up all the time.

The Golf is one of the only two cars in Australia that get 4 stars for forward visibility. Changing the A pillar and surrounding areas would compromise this.
The car is aerodynamic to minimise fuel consumption, changing it to suit the few people that like to drive with the windows down would compromise this.

How about the few people that want to drive with the windows down compromise instead and buy a weathershield or crack open another window?

My apologies, I didn't know you had conducted a survey and found only a few people ever drive with their windows down and the vast majority of people drive with their windows up all the time. What rubbish.

Anyway, the relevant point is that if other manufacturers can do aero efficiency and minimal buffeting then VW should be able to as well.

Maverick
24-05-2010, 10:35 AM
Some good points there. I didn't know about the Golf being one of the two cars in Australia with a 4 star forward visibility rating - that's cool, and always great to have some quantifiable measurement.

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/ArticleDetail.aspx?ArticleID=62121&vf=1

Holden's Commodore is one of 29 cars to get the lowest rating in a world-first study into the visibility afforded drivers by today's new cars. By JAEDENE HUDSON.

Improvements in crash safety have led to a design flaw in some cars that could obscure the driver's view of pedestrians or vehicles, an NRMA study says.
The first-of-its-kind blind spot study tested 138 cars using lasers and computers to assess the visibility they afforded drivers.

None achieved the maximum five-star rating and 80 per cent scored just one or two stars, indicating poor frontal visibility.

The reduced visibility is a result of the pillars on either side of the windscreen being made thicker to improve occupant protection and achieve favourable crash ratings.

"It is quite possible that someone could quite easily turn into the path of an oncoming car in a roundabout, a pedestrian or a motorcyclist [due to poor vehicle design]," Robert McDonald, the NRMA Insurance head of research, said.

The motoring group picked popular vehicles in segments of the market from city cars to four-wheel-drives and commercial vehicles. The best-selling Holden Commodore was among 29 cars - including two other Holdens - that scored just one star in the car blind spot rating.

Other one-star performers include the Toyota Yaris sedan, Audi Q7 soft-roader and BMW 1 Series.

Honda, a brand that performs strongly for pedestrian impact protection according to independent NCAP testing, fared poorly with Odyssey (now superseded), City, Accord and Legend models, which all scoring only one star.

Holden defended the Commodore's poor performance in the NRMA study.

"The VE Commodore has been designed to accommodate the latest safety technology to protect occupants if crashes do occur," a Holden spokesman, Jonathan Rose, said.

"We do not believe the blind spots are more significant than other large cars."

The cars rated best for forward visibility were the Volkswagen Golf and Citroen Picasso, which each scored four stars.

Mr McDonald acknowledged that makers faced a difficult design challenge combining safety with visibility, but he called for better driver sight lines.

"Modern vehicle design has improved the safety of cars for drivers and passengers remarkably in recent years," he said.

"But manufacturers may need to help drivers [by] striking a better balance between crash safety and visibility. It is a concern that in some cars a pedestrian or cyclist can be lost in a blind spot from as close as nine metres and a driver can lose sight of another vehicle from about 20 metres."

The NRMA testing involved rotating a laser 180 degrees from the driver's seat to determine where the line of vision was broken by the roof pillars.



I wish it were easier to have a discussion about the aerodynamics, but I find it very hard to find any information about the aerodynamic efficiencies of various cars, and even more difficult to find uniform measurement practices.

I don't see why you would do anything other than some rudimentary testing with the window down especially when nearly everyone drives with them up. Aerodynamics to me is about getting the air over the car with minimal drag, if you want a car where you can open the window without any buffeting you have to compromise on the aerodynamics when the windows are closed which means the car uses more fuel.

Holden and Ford both have cars that are not smooth on the sides around the side windows like the Golf is, I guess they figure most of their customers like to have their knuckles dragging when cruising so making the car more efficient would alienate their customers.

Maverick
24-05-2010, 10:40 AM
My apologies, I didn't know you had conducted a survey and found only a few people ever drive with their windows down and the vast majority of people drive with their windows up all the time. What rubbish.

I conduct the survey every day, the only cars I see with the windows down are some tradesman, smokers who have it down or just cracked enough so they can flick their butts out the window, cars without air-conditioning and very few others.


Anyway, the relevant point is that if other manufacturers can do aero efficiency and minimal buffeting then VW should be able to as well.

Volkswagen do have fantastic aerodynamics and do extensive testing of the cars to minimise drag. They probably spend more time in wind tunnels than the other manufacturers if you look at the designs of their cars and how clean the lines are.

If you don't like an aspect of the car because you choose to drive with the windows down that's too bad, they are catering to the majority who drive with them up. There is a solution to your "problem" and you can fit a weather-shield from VW parts, you can adjust other windows, harden up or buy another car.

G-rig
24-05-2010, 10:41 AM
Holden and Ford both have cars that are not smooth on the sides around the side windows like the Golf is, I guess they figure most of their customers like to have their knuckles dragging when cruising so making the car more efficient would alienate their customers.

Bogans usually have the window down and their arm hanging out as obviously their cars interior isn't comfortable enough to contain them.

That or they are abusing other drivers or smoking.

team_v
24-05-2010, 10:43 AM
My apologies, I didn't know you had conducted a survey and found only a few people ever drive with their windows down and the vast majority of people drive with their windows up all the time. What rubbish.

Anyway, the relevant point is that if other manufacturers can do aero efficiency and minimal buffeting then VW should be able to as well.

I'm going to side with Mav on this one.
When on the road, the number of cars with windows down are severely outbnumbered by the cars with windows up.
I never have my windows down, especially when i have aircon as there is no need.

I believe forward visibility and a 5 star safety rating is a better use of design than having to re-design a car to reduce buffeting which can be reduced by lowering another window.

As said above, most of the people who have their wiondows down are either illegally litering with cigarette butts or illegally having their arms/feet out the window.

G-rig
24-05-2010, 10:47 AM
People probably think they are saving on economy having the windows down and aircon off, but it's probably no better considering the worse drag and aerodynamics.

Corey_R
24-05-2010, 10:50 AM
I don't see why you would do anything other than some rudimentary testing with the window down especially when nearly everyone drives with them up. Aerodynamics to me is about getting the air over the car with minimal drag, if you want a car where you can open the window without any buffeting you have to compromise on the aerodynamics when the windows are closed which means the car uses more fuel.

Yes, I totally agree. My comments about having data available is more so that we could discuss with some actual fact in relation to BBP's comments:


Anyway, the relevant point is that if other manufacturers can do aero efficiency and minimal buffeting then VW should be able to as well.

There are HUGE differences in aerodynamic efficiency between modern vehicles, even within the same manufacturer - but almost no one publishes things like 'Drag Coefficient" (Cd) etc. So whilst I disagree that other manufacturers are producing cars are aerodynamically efficient as the Golf (based on the fact that the Golf doesn't have any wind noise with all windows closed until over 180kph, and as you've noted, the side of a Golf is much smoother than Commodores and Falcons etc), without specific data from the manufacturers or independent tests, it's really hard to actually discuss this point any further (or to any worthwhile conclusion).


I'm going to side with Mav on this one.
When on the road, the number of cars with windows down are severely outbnumbered by the cars with windows up.
I never have my windows down, especially when i have aircon as there is no need.
Agreed. I'm not sure that anyone who drives with their eyes open could honestly claim that more people drive with their windows down than up.

Maverick
24-05-2010, 11:02 AM
Yes, I totally agree. My comments about having data available is more so that we could discuss with some actual fact in relation to BBP's comments:

I'm not sure how anyone could given there is no way to test for every variation of wind and driving conditions. At least with Cd it can be done in a scientific manner but testing with the windows down, with different numbers of people in the car, different adjustments to seats, different tolerances to noises and so on is never going to be possible (and I can't see anyone ever trying to put together a way to try and measure it).


There are HUGE differences in aerodynamic efficiency between modern vehicles, even within the same manufacturer - but almost no one publishes things like 'Drag Coefficient" (Cd) etc. So whilst I disagree that other manufacturers are producing cars are aerodynamically efficient as the Golf (based on the fact that the Golf doesn't have any wind noise with all windows closed until over 180kph, and as you've noted, the side of a Golf is much smoother than Commodores and Falcons etc), without specific data from the manufacturers or independent tests, it's really hard to actually discuss this point any further (or to any worthwhile conclusion).

I found some info on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automobile_drag_coefficient)but the Cd is only part of the equation when you're looking at how the air flows over the car's body and can't really be used to compare anything meaningful.

For example
Mark V GTI has a Cd of .32 with flush glass on the side. (Very little wind noise)
EF Ford Falcon (1995) has a Cd of .31 with recessed windows on the side. (I had a EFII Fairmont Ghia and this had heaps and heaps of wind noise)

The AU Falcon Wagon has a Cd of .341 and the Sedan .295 (http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_Low-Drag-Car-Aerodynamics/A_109778/article.html)

BBP
24-05-2010, 11:21 AM
We seem to be getting bogged down in a lot of garbage about Cds, wind tunnels, lazy window operators and casual observations being passed off as fact.

No one has suggested that some people drive with their windows down all the time. That's obviously not true. However, Maverick has suggested that "the vast majority of drivers" drive with their windows up "all the time", ie. they never have their windows down while driving. Again, that is patently nonsense.

The original post in this thread complained about buffeting when the windows are open. Whether that is for 5mins per year of driving or more is not the issue. The issue is that it happens a great deal (according to the original poster) in the Golf when other manufacturers can create designs that are still sleek but don't cause excessive buffeting.

G-rig
24-05-2010, 11:25 AM
Once you're going too fast it's too noisy and windy anyway, like when you go onto the freeway it's not worth having the windows down.

It's nice to have them down if you're going slow and it's a nice day but with the pollution it's not really worth it anyway half the time.

Corey_R
24-05-2010, 11:28 AM
We seem to be getting bogged down in a lot of garbage about Cds, wind tunnels, lazy window operators and casual observations being passed off as fact.

No one has suggested that some people drive with their windows down all the time. That's obviously not true. However, Maverick has suggested that "the vast majority of drivers" drive with their windows up "all the time", ie. they never have their windows down while driving. Again, that is patently nonsense.

The original post in this thread complained about buffeting when the windows are open. Whether that is for 5mins per year of driving or more is not the issue. The issue is that it happens a great deal (according to the original poster) in the Golf when other manufacturers can create designs that are still sleek but don't cause excessive buffeting.

The issue is your use of non-quantifiable things like "sleek" and "aerodynamic". Who here can say that these other cars ARE as "sleek" or "aerodynamic" as the Golf.
Also, in the past few weeks I've been in Suzukis, Fords, Audis, Mazdas and Peugots for various reasons. All had wind buffeting annoying enough for me to put the window up - so again - so in my experience I don't think manufacturers can make modern aerodynamic cars which don't have buffeting - but it's just my opinion, like your opinion is yours.

The reason for looking at the other "garbage" is because it is quantifiable data, rather than peoples opinions.

BBP
24-05-2010, 11:28 AM
Once you're going too fast it's too noisy and windy anyway, like when you go onto the freeway it's not worth having the windows down.

It's nice to have them down if you're going slow and it's a nice day but with the pollution it's not really worth it anyway half the time.

Finally a logic post. I agree.

Maverick
24-05-2010, 11:32 AM
We seem to be getting bogged down in a lot of garbage about Cds, wind tunnels, lazy window operators and casual observations being passed off as fact.

It's a fact that more than 95% of the cars I see have their windows up.


No one has suggested that some people drive with their windows down all the time. That's obviously not true. However, Maverick has suggested that "the vast majority of drivers" drive with their windows up "all the time", ie. they never have their windows down while driving. Again, that is patently nonsense.

You can nit pick all you want, I'm sure that people do have their windows down at different times for a short period but it changes nothing and doesn't make my argument incorrect.


The original post in this thread complained about buffeting when the windows are open. Whether that is for 5mins per year of driving or more is not the issue. The issue is that it happens a great deal (according to the original poster) in the Golf when other manufacturers can create designs that are still sleek but don't cause excessive buffeting.

The majority of cars on the market now would suffer from buffeting under certain conditions, my Subaru did under some conditions, my Ford did under some conditions and the Golf does under some conditions. All can be alleviated by adjusting, opening another window and/or fitting a weathershield.

Unless you can post some proof of your claim (which is really a casual observation based on third hand information from one poster being passed off as fact) that other manufacturers do not suffer from wind buffeting I would suggest that your posts are pointless as they don't contribute anything, at least others are discussing this based on valid data and experience.

velly_16v_cab
24-05-2010, 11:57 AM
3 pages in and NO ONE has commented on my post.........

Corey_R
24-05-2010, 12:02 PM
3 pages in and NO ONE has commented on my post.........

Lol... ok, I'll bite!
Do you have any data that you can share on the Ford's that you've tested, as well as the competitors that you've tested? :)

dave_r
24-05-2010, 12:04 PM
i know at ford (where i work) we do not test for whid noise with the windows open.

how do i know?
I test our cars and the competitors cars

I only just saw this thread and the first thing I was going to say to the OP was "you've never driven a falcon" LOL
I've had BF, BFII and FG and they're all TERRIBLE and that is with the windows UP.

O/T... what do you guys actually test? The issues I've had with my latest FG have been so stupid it's laughable!


Lol... ok, I'll bite!
Do you have any data that you can share on the Ford's that you've tested, as well as the competitors that you've tested? :)

EDIT: LOL I've been away for a few days!

G-rig
24-05-2010, 12:06 PM
Don't get dave- started on Fords, :D

BBP
24-05-2010, 12:21 PM
I thought the FGs were pretty good ?!

Corey_R
24-05-2010, 12:30 PM
They are good... good for a Falcon :D

velly_16v_cab
24-05-2010, 12:38 PM
lol...all wind noise is done with windows up, no i can not go into full details ;) but i am a tester for falcon and territory

shame i cant get onto a project where we can get a golf ;)
I have tried to get them to buy a passat but we have an audi a6 tho :)

Corey_R
24-05-2010, 12:43 PM
lol...all wind noise is done with windows up

Yeah - and this is what Maverick and my earlier posts also mentioned, the manufacturers, as you've confirmed for Ford with the Falcon and Territory, are really not concerned with the wind noise with the windows down.

dave_r
24-05-2010, 12:45 PM
lol...all wind noise is done with windows up, no i can not go into full details ;) but i am a tester for falcon and territory

That'd be cos there aren't any details hehe. Drive to test circuit, have coffee, break for lunch, read paper, go home. That'd be about right yeah? ;)


Don't get dave- started on Fords, :D

LOL indeed.... they've got a life time ban after my FG. Their after sales support is non existent which is sort of important given the sub standard products they sell in the first place.

velly_16v_cab
24-05-2010, 12:52 PM
That'd be cos there aren't any details hehe. Drive to test circuit, have coffee, break for lunch, read paper, go home. That'd be about right yeah? ;)



LOL indeed.... they've got a life time ban after my FG. Their after sales support is non existent which is sort of important given the sub standard products they sell in the first place.


sounds about right lol

BBP
24-05-2010, 01:01 PM
I've never bought a Toyota, err, sorry, I mean Lexus, but I can't imagine anyone beating Jaguar's dealer service. They are like stewardesses on a first class flight.

MurphyTheElf
24-05-2010, 01:10 PM
I've never bought a Toyota, err, sorry, I mean Lexus, but I can't imagine anyone beating Jaguar's dealer service. They are like stewardesses on a first class flight.

Jaguar service: newspaper, hot towel and a hand shandy....

dubbed
24-05-2010, 05:01 PM
I remember riding in the back of my mate's E39 with the front windows down. I couldn't feel any air and the wind noise was non-existent.

Oh yeah, Golfs.. Can someone explain why my sunroof when opened all the way creates bad wind "buffeting", but there is a secondary setting which closes it about half an inch (from open all the way) and all the noise disappears?

jj77
24-05-2010, 05:22 PM
...their arm hanging out as obviously their cars interior isn't comfortable enough to contain them.

This is so funny, G-rig :)


That or they are abusing other drivers or smoking.

I am a smoker but I don't dare smoke in my precious *with the lord of the ring Gollum's voice* current polo or will i ever dare to pollute the air of my new golf which I will get this Wednesday.

J

Corey_R
24-05-2010, 06:31 PM
Oh yeah, Golfs.. Can someone explain why my sunroof when opened all the way creates bad wind "buffeting", but there is a secondary setting which closes it about half an inch (from open all the way) and all the noise disappears?
Aerodynamics basically.... the front of the car, the windscreen, and the sunroof deflector don't punch a large enough "hole in the air" for the air to miss the sunroof opening completely. So the 2nd setting closes the sunroof just enough for the buffeting not to occur.

snodrogs
24-05-2010, 10:05 PM
My Passat sunroof actually stops about 2 inches from fully open and you have to turn the dial against spring pressure to get it to open fully.

I don't bother opening it past its default setting, as when it's fully open, I can't hear myself think or my wife speaking to me... hmmmm :confused: Have it got that wrong then???:P

G-rig
24-05-2010, 10:29 PM
This is so funny, G-rig :)

Funny but true.


My Passat sunroof actually stops about 2 inches from fully open and you have to turn the dial against spring pressure to get it to open fully.

I don't bother opening it past its default setting, as when it's fully open, I can't hear myself think or my wife speaking to me... hmmmm :confused: Have it got that wrong then???:P

Just open it all the way and enjoy.

Yevvy
25-05-2010, 10:51 AM
another whinge in a mk6 section :D haha

G-rig
25-05-2010, 01:05 PM
another whinge in a mk6 section :D haha

They are a very fussy bunch - they shouldn't have bought a MK6 if there would be this many problems.

I just went for a drive and there is hardly basically NO wind noise when the windows are up.

nau
25-05-2010, 01:22 PM
Aerodynamics basically.... the front of the car, the windscreen, and the sunroof deflector don't punch a large enough "hole in the air" for the air to miss the sunroof opening completely. So the 2nd setting closes the sunroof just enough for the buffeting not to occur.
I second that ... however it also depends on a speed and wind direction... but yeh Im yet to see car that had sunroof that didnt make woooofing sound at any condition...

Maverick
25-05-2010, 02:00 PM
They are a very fussy bunch - they shouldn't have bought a MK6 if they would imagine this many problems.

Fixed it for you!

G-rig
25-05-2010, 02:10 PM
Yeah that's more like it :D

PassatB6
25-05-2010, 05:13 PM
Haha just looked at the VW watercooled banner - classic windows down arm hanging pose in Mk 1! I bet a lot of people who drive with windows down have their aircon still on and are 'arm hangers'.

G-rig
25-05-2010, 05:18 PM
Haha just looked at the VW watercooled banner - classic windows down arm hanging pose in Mk 1! I bet a lot of people who drive with windows down have their aircon still on and are 'arm hangers'.

He probably isn't getting good fuel economy with the wind drag on his arm and window down.

REXman
17-01-2011, 11:07 PM
So I got my tints put up today.. Happy. Sort of!

I put down just the rear windows (all the way) and my ears nearly blew out. I am not joking. It is so damn loud it ridiculous. I remember this sunroof I used to have did it at about a quarter of that rate, and I thought THAT was bad.

Can some GOLF owners please have a go of this. The crazy thing is, you couldnt bloody have someone sitting in the back with the window down and be even REMOTELY comfortable.

I didnt mind the turning circle and leaking doors etc.. but this is crazy!

please test out VWWATERCOOLED members with MKVI GOLFs.

Cheers

Report back

zbeasty
18-01-2011, 04:54 AM
I can confirm. Putting the fronts down will fix it.

Fab_R
18-01-2011, 05:57 AM
I can't get the back windows down on mine......:???:

Corey_R
18-01-2011, 07:36 AM
I put down just the rear windows (all the way) and my ears nearly blew out. I am not joking. It is so damn loud it ridiculous. I remember this sunroof I used to have did it at about a quarter of that rate, and I thought THAT was bad.
Welcome to modern, aerodynamic cars... especially hatchbacks. As noted by zbeasty, you need to also lower the front windows so that there is some equalisation of pressure (or a return path or whatever is happening).
The Golf MKV, MK6, Polo 9N are no worse than the previous few cars I had before, or friends cars I've borrowed *shrugs*

team_v
18-01-2011, 07:52 AM
Welcome to modern, aerodynamic cars... especially hatchbacks. As noted by zbeasty, you need to also lower the front windows so that there is some equalisation of pressure (or a return path or whatever is happening).
The Golf MKV, MK6, Polo 9N are no worse than the previous few cars I had before, or friends cars I've borrowed *shrugs*

Mav has argued this point quite well previously.

Cliffs:
Car's are made to be more aerodynamic now to reduce drag and increase fuel economy.
Car's now have aircon standard (unless you get a getz etc) so there is no need to open the windows.
You actually get worse consumption from opening the windows and getting warm air flowing in when driving at higher speeds than you do from leaving the windows up and putting the aircon on.

Corey_R
18-01-2011, 08:25 AM
Yeah... that's basically the sitch :)

REXman
18-01-2011, 09:34 AM
I did read Coreys comment about the windows not punching a big enough hole in the air or something.. Makes sense.. But like NO other cars do it..

All generations of Rexies, Skyline, BMW Coupe... and Corolla (all cars except one of the rexies are post 2002 make cars).. never did it. And 2 of the rexies were the new 3G hatches.

The MPS 3 definitely doesn't do it. And I am not sure If the Polo 77TSI MY11 does it.

My rear left window also makes a mad whining sound when you wind it up. Not down, just up. ( I discovered it from the Wind/Boom testing. :( )

Good to know tonight when I can put my front windows down, the booming will stop. Its like amazingly loud. I have sensitive ears (Hear the TV buzzing on standby from across the house) so it really puts a massive pressure on the ear drums.

cme2c
18-01-2011, 09:42 AM
Buffeting was even a problem even in Dad's HR Special (186 Powerglide) We'd get in trouble for opening the back windows. It is worse now (especially in the Golf VI) and you don't have flipper windows to fix the problem.

(Stumbles away mumbling "things were different in my day"...)

REXman
18-01-2011, 09:50 AM
He cme2c, So you mean to say that one of these,

HOLDEN SPECIAL HR STATION WAGON 186 POWERGLIDE SA REGO (eBay item 260698162500 end time Nov-28-10 12:51:13 EST) (http://cars.ebay.com.au/HOLDEN-SPECIAL-HR-STATION-WAGON-186-POWERGLIDE-SA-REGO_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ260698162500QQViewItem TabZfinance)

Had wind buffeting??!

REXman
18-01-2011, 09:52 AM
I gotta say though.. I sort of got the 5 door cause I thought If I have Kids in the next couple of years.. I can keep my car. If they were to put the back windows down, it would blow there ears out!? Should have gotten the 3 door? Or does that do it too?

Corey_R
18-01-2011, 10:00 AM
Should have gotten the 3 door?

No idea... the only time the windows go down is when I have to lean out to take a ticket or swipe a badge at a boomgate etc...

weewilly
18-01-2011, 10:06 AM
I gotta say though.. I sort of got the 5 door cause I thought If I have Kids in the next couple of years.. I can keep my car. If they were to put the back windows down, it would blow there ears out!? Should have gotten the 3 door? Or does that do it too?
yes it does. Only have two windows that go down with three door. hardly ever open sunroof, too tough on ears....

pologti18t
18-01-2011, 10:46 AM
I noticed the booming when i tested a 2 door Polo GTI with a sunroof way back in 2005. Also my parents 1979 Mazda 626 used to get it ( no ac back then) when cruising along with the windows down. Depended on speed and window position.

Lots of 5 door cars get it even without a sunroof. I think its called heterodyning.

The only way to solve it is to closed one or more windows until it dissappears. It is NOT a fault of the car design.

Ideo
18-01-2011, 11:23 AM
My S3 does it bad with the sunroof open above 70km if you don't have the windows down.

Not a car fault. Just a fact of life.

But it is a reason I'm not getting a sunroof. Most of my driving is above 80kmh anyway, so it's not really needed.

Corey_R
18-01-2011, 11:55 AM
With the MKV Golf GTI, I never opened the sunroof because of the buffeting. I had a 3door, so no rear windows to open.

Yet with the MK6 Golf R 3 door, I find that the sunroof is ok up to even 80kph. I SLIGHTLY crack the front windows (like so slightly I can't even see that they're open, and I'm good to go. When going downhill, I get noticably more buffeting, but not uncomfortably so...

I'm thinking that the "buffeting" issue is so complex that it really depends on seat position. Not just "which seat you're in", but literally how the seat is adjusted and therefore where your ears are in relation to the car. Then it depends how far the window is down, and which window(s) are down etc.

I have a feeling that if REXman replicated the exact same conditions as yesterday which caused him to revive this thread, but had a kid in the back seat, the kid would probably wonder what he's complaining about. (well.. more than a feeling, cause I experimented on my MKV whilst someone else was driving).

OilBurna
18-01-2011, 12:43 PM
o/t slightly but as previous poster commented the B6 Passat is interesting in that if you open the sunroof to the normal position on the dial no buffeting at all even above 100kmh, but as soon as you turn the dial and open it fully the buffeting is shocking. Haven't tried opening any windows to allievate yet. All previous cars with sunroofs with and without wind deflectors never had an issue including wife's Merc which has a full length fabric style one.

Frankenstrat
18-01-2011, 02:07 PM
What I *THINK* is happening is that the sunroof is acting like an aerofoil. The air passing over the top creates low pressure in the cabin, so air has to get back in to equalise the pressure. There's a fight between the air moving over the sunroof and the air trying to get back into the cabin, and that creates the buffeting. I'm fairly certain your eardrums are responding to the rapid changes in pressure, hence the discomfort. Cracking open a window allows pressure equalisation and hence eliminates the buffeting. Also any pressure build up due to the slightly open window will dissipate through the open sunroof.

Well, that's my theory and I'm sticking to it. :)

REXman
18-01-2011, 02:57 PM
It is NOT a fault of the car design.

Probably not, but you can cruise in a BMW coupe at 140km/h (on a track) with all the windows down, sunroof all the way open, or preset position, whatever you want, and no buffeting. Thats just design quality I guess.

The R is only worth $68500 so that is understandable.

PS Yeah Corey, I am replicating the sound like everyday.. Its hardcore man!

weewilly
18-01-2011, 06:08 PM
the main difference between the R sunroof and my wife's C-200 is the C-200 has a plastic rail that comes up on the leading edge of the sunroof when the roof is retracted. I don't think the R has one, but will check later.

ratedr
18-01-2011, 08:25 PM
Buffeting is unique to golf... All other cars with sunroofs I could drive at 110km on highway and never get buffeting... It was really disappointing test driving R with this problem... It's an old school design sunroof so don't understand why they got it so wrong...

Ideo
18-01-2011, 08:40 PM
Buffeting is unique to golf... All other cars with sunroofs I could drive at 110km on highway and never get buffeting... It was really disappointing test driving R with this problem... It's an old school design sunroof so don't understand why they got it so wrong...

No it's not.

I get it in my S3 and had it in my old e36 sedan as well.

It's annoying, but it's not unique

pologti18t
18-01-2011, 08:55 PM
Buffeting is unique to golf... All other cars with sunroofs I could drive at 110km on highway and never get buffeting... It was really disappointing test driving R with this problem... It's an old school design sunroof so don't understand why they got it so wrong...

Right.... clearly this is not true.

Corey_R
18-01-2011, 09:01 PM
Yeah.... I've noticed it in all range of cars over the years. Some great, some bad.
I personally like the current Merc sunroof design which has the material baffle which pops up substantially higher than the Golf's plastic "spoiler". In the few I've been in, it's worked a treat.

REXman
18-01-2011, 11:02 PM
BMW has the same thing. when the sunroof goes back, it has a little spoiler with some grooves in it that probably sticks out only an inch.. No buffeting. I'm sure it's the crafty design of the spoiler and maybe the cars design. I'd imagine the 3 series coupes are pretty streamline.. More so than a hatch?

Corey_R
19-01-2011, 07:25 AM
Hatches natrally have a low pressure zone behind them. That's why the entire back of the car gets plastered with water and dirt as soon as they roads are wet. If it isn't raining, but the roads are wet, your entire car can be perfectly clean... except the hatch! I'm not a fluid dynamics or air tunnel engineer though, so no idea if that is causing more pressure of the wind against the car surface.

pologti18t
19-01-2011, 08:07 AM
Hatches natrally have a low pressure zone behind them. That's why the entire back of the car gets plastered with water and dirt as soon as they roads are wet. If it isn't raining, but the roads are wet, your entire car can be perfectly clean... except the hatch! I'm not a fluid dynamics or air tunnel engineer though, so no idea if that is causing more pressure of the wind against the car surface.

I thought that was a Golf VI design flaw only. Surely you should write to VWA about it ;)

G-rig
19-01-2011, 10:30 AM
BMW has the same thing. when the sunroof goes back, it has a little spoiler with some grooves in it that probably sticks out only an inch.. No buffeting. I'm sure it's the crafty design of the spoiler and maybe the cars design. I'd imagine the 3 series coupes are pretty streamline.. More so than a hatch?

Sounds like BMW got it right - they are more expensive cars than a Golf so you'd expect there to be no buffeting. (The sunroof on an R wouldn't be any different to the base model Golfs).

The buffeting noise is also bad on the MK5/MK6 with the windows down, but wind noise is very quite when they are up so you can't have everything.

AdamD
19-01-2011, 02:10 PM
BMW has the same thing. when the sunroof goes back, it has a little spoiler with some grooves in it that probably sticks out only an inch.. No buffeting. I'm sure it's the crafty design of the spoiler and maybe the cars design. I'd imagine the 3 series coupes are pretty streamline.. More so than a hatch?

The same principle is applied with convertibles. The Eos has a windguard that runs the width of the windscreen, that you manually deploy (pop up) when you put the roof down. If you don't pop it up, you (the driver) may not hear much difference, but any rear-seat passengers sure will!

Aerodynamics are amazingly complicated. The fact that a little spoiler can make so much difference illustrates that well.

Corey_R
19-01-2011, 03:28 PM
Aerodynamics are amazingly complicated.

Ain't that the truth!

Anyone that has been watching the NASCAR in the past few years will know just how complicated the topic is. They've had a "little issue" with their "new car" getting airborne when they get turned backwards at the 190mph+ tracks. The cars have been specifically designed with aerodynamics to prevent this from happening. They've even got "roof flaps" and other devices which get deployed/activate by negative pressure to stop this from happening. And yet it's happened with rather spectacular results on 3 occasions (at least 2 of them making the non-sports section of the 6pm news on the 3 main FTV comercial stations in Australia). The cars have been designed in the wind tunnels. They've had Ford, GM, Dodge/Chysler and Toyota all take them to their wind tunnels to figure it out. When they've all drawn blanks they've engaged various Science Uni's in America and UK. They've even had assistance from NASA, the US Airforce, and a few F1/LMPS designers, since they had the issue a few years back at Le Mans etc.... and the problem has still not been able to be reproduced in the labs, wind tunnels, fluid tubs, or computer simulators. Yet it happens!

But then, this is why each year there are new F1 cars, and new road cars every few years - because all these uber-scientists keep learning new things and applying new knowledge to their products!

Frankenstrat
20-01-2011, 01:41 PM
I think the problem is that with wind tunnel testing, the vehicle is stationary. In a road race the car is jiggling and twitching about all over the place. All it would take is for the forward-facing part of the vehicle to rise sufficiently for the air to prefer to pass under the car rather than over it (fluids like to take the path of least resistance) and... up she goes. The underside of the car presents itself as a spoiler pivoting around the rearmost wheels. If the car has spun and is hurtling along backwards, the lighter end of the car will be facing in the direction of travel so there is less mass at the end you need it to resist pivoting. The key is to suddenly induce low pressure under the car to keep the wheels firmly in contact with the track. How you go about that is way beyond my level of expertise.

G-rig
20-01-2011, 08:40 PM
Or just don't get a sun roof and save yourself money and annoyances, they are for posers anyway to a degree.

Corey_R
20-01-2011, 08:53 PM
Or just don't get a sun roof and save yourself money and annoyances, they are for posers anyway to a degree.

Yeah... I just got one so those hot 10'8" women I drive by each day can see my awesome head of hair ;)

dave_r
21-01-2011, 09:50 AM
LOL I knew there was a reason I ticked the box! You know what's for posers? That blue colour....damn those people!

Frankenstrat
21-01-2011, 11:30 AM
Yeah... I just got one so those hot 10'8" women I drive by each day can see my awesome head of hair ;)

Erk, 10'8" women, that's just scary! If I drove by them, sadly they wouldn't be looking at my awesome head of hair.

G-rig
25-01-2011, 01:14 AM
So Does the R have a plastic wind buffeting thing that pops up when the roof is open?

Corey_R
25-01-2011, 07:26 AM
Yes. Identical to the rest of the MK6 and even MKV Golf models.