Lowering a vehicle in NSW - recent changes?

[The_Hawk]

Listening to the news on the radio on the way to work this morning they had a passing mention of lowering limits being decreased from the current 15cm to only 5cm.

I'm not sure what the rules actually are, if there is a max drop allowable or a minimum height requirement or maybe both??

Anyone seen anything on this change (or proposed change)??

[Yevvy]

Listening to the news on the radio on the way to work this morning they had a passing mention of lowering limits being decreased from the current 15cm to only 5cm.

I'm not sure what the rules actually are, if there is a max drop allowable or a minimum height requirement or maybe both??

Anyone seen anything on this change (or proposed change)??

just curious, did they actually give any reasoning to this?

[team_v]

I can't find any actual figure on the RTA website (relevant to NSW) to get a guide of whether this will happen or not.

In QLD, The ride height measured between the rubber bump stop and the corresponding metal stop may be reduced by no more than one third. Alternatively, the road clearance of a fully laden vehicle must not be less than 100mm measured at any part of the vehicle other than the wheel rim or brake backing plates. (whichever comes first)

5mm seems like overkill and is probably just a scare tactic, i doubt it will see the light of day as an actual road law.

[DubSteve]

Either way I'm still sittng lower than that so when they say 1 free sump claim a year that will be fantastic!

[AusScare]

What's the point of Policing ride height anyway?

The lower the person goes, the more their car gets hurt and the more carefully they have to drive it.

Mine is 10cm at the front lip and I certainly don't want it any lower, it scrapes on enough things as it is.

[Water Boy]

In Melbourne its 100mm at the lowest point excluding the exhuast. The silly thing is though some new cars came from the factory lower than 100mm :duh: and then people get hassled who have just lowered their cars :frown:

[team_v]

What's the point of Policing ride height anyway?

The lower the person goes, the more their car gets hurt and the more carefully they have to drive it.

Mine is 10cm at the front lip and I certainly don't want it any lower, it scrapes on enough things as it is.

The point is that the lines that run under the car (brake, fuel etc) are more likely to be damaged if the car is sitting lower to the road and scrapes speed bumps or cubs, endangering other road users and pedestrians when the lowered car driver can no longer stop or is leaking fuel everywhere.

Regarding the cars lower than 100mm from the factory, this would accont for a very limited number of cars on the road in Australia. If they come like that from the factory, they have to be ADR approved anyway so they must be legal to use at that height.

[AGO41T]

its neva going to work and wouldnt ever care

they would need a database with all car's height and start measuring etc etc

[gareth_oau]

and check your insurance, mine only allows a drop of 30mm from standard, as long as its not lower than the WA law of 100mm clearance overall

[Spyda]

In QLD, The ride height measured between the rubber bump stop and the corresponding metal stop may be reduced by no more than one third. Alternatively, the road clearance of a fully laden vehicle must not be less than 100mm measured at any part of the vehicle other than the wheel rim or brake backing plates. (whichever comes first)




Thats exactly the same defenition on vicroads. The 100mm is measured INCLUDING the exhaust and anywhere 1m from the axel. There is also a calulation that ADR used to use that takes in to account wheel base, width, weight IIRC.

Funny how some new cars like the Mini come out of the box lower than 100mm.

Changing it to 50mm still doesnt help me. The mk1s lowest point is about 40mm and i can sleep in the wheel gap. :nana:

[Mika]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25790506-29277,00.html

Get your low on before August 1st :D

[team_v]

So you can already lower it 5cm without approval and 15cm with approval.
Now they are just making it 5cm across the board.

But as said previously, how are they going to check that, they would need a database of every car and the ride height which is just not doable.

My bet is that they will just use it to question people and then check their car for other defects.

[Manaz]

My car currently sits lower than I intend it to eventually be, so I should be fine.

What does interest me is how they plan on determining whether or not the car was lowered before or after August 1st 2009 - will you have to provide documentary proof? Is the fitment date of the new suspension sufficient (it shouldn't be for items such as coilovers, but how do you police them)?

[DubSteve]

WTF that article is so stupid honestly as if someone is going to know that your car was lowered after 1st august!

[Mika]

WTF that article is so stupid honestly as if someone is going to know that your car was lowered after 1st august!

It's like darker than legal tints...in vic i think the rule is if it was installed pre-93, you can have whatever % tint you like, but if you change the tint, you cannot go darker than 35%.

[Jarred]

and check your insurance, mine only allows a drop of 30mm from standard, as long as its not lower than the WA law of 100mm clearance overall

more of an insurance company thing that anything else I believe.

With RACV I could only lower my golf 1 inch, to stay insured. Which is why I went with Just Car, they didn't even ask how low!

[Blitzen]

Well, have your say about it...This is the NSW Roads Ministers email address....

office@daley.minister.nsw.gov.au

Before anyone gets uppity about how I got this info, just Google his name and all his info comes up...

[peter-xll]

I had never thought about it from a 'damage to lines etc' perspective...always thought about the bumper! But that does make sense.

Does anyone know about the laws in SA? I've heard so many different stories;
- a 'set' maximum measured from lowest point; usually exhaust (yet nobody tells me what the height measurement is)
- varied from vehicle to vehicle, measured as above (lowest point)
- varied vehicle to vehicle; measured from wheel centrecap to wheel arch.
- 'as long as you can fit a coke can under it'

is it any of these? I assume its a car to car; I once tried getting a coke can under family friend's porshe GT3 and it just wasnt happening haha. Maybe i'll just have to drive to the local cop shop (in dad's car; just in case...) and get a definitive answer. The police in SA are going berserk on hoon laws currently anyway; anyone from SA see the Sunday mail the other week?! Road blocks for big burnouts, carpark takeovers...

[Preen59]

What a crock of ****. We may as well move to California at this rate.. :duh:

[team_v]

http://www.ezyreg.sa.gov.au/pdfs/personal_transport/light_vehicles_pdfs/fact_sheet_track_suspen.pdf

SA Suspension allowance provided in the link above.

[Blitzen]

Easy way to get around the new lowering laws...If you have relatives or mates that live interstate, get your car registered there...You just have to say that the car is garaged there, and have the mailing address on the rego as where you live(it dosn't matter if you have say, QLD rego, but the mailing address is in Vic), so long as the mail gets to you, they don't care. I have done this for years(I lived in QLD, but had Vic rego for 2 years, and then lived in NSW, but still had Vic rego for 12 months, and I was pulled over many times, and the police never had a problem with it)...And lets face it, rego in NSW is way more expensive than anywhere else...It may sound dodgy, but it works.
For example, Rego costs for my Polo GTI(as close as I can remember...)
NSW...$800
Vic...$540
NT...$480
QLD...$560

[AGO41T]

ders nothing to worry about..

they will only pick on cars that are lowered like 3" tucking rim etc...

its a easy fix anyways, either wind coils up or put in some stock springs and go get it passed..

there are more headaches for other mods :duh:

[Nathan_B]

This is being discussed on another forum and the press release states that you will need to have the car approved for ANY changes, even 1cm.. anything above 5cm will be illegal and not approved

The biggest losers to this will be the 4WD community - think of all the rual owners that raise their landcruisers so they can drive them in the country etc etc

[peter-xll]

Thanks for that pdf team_v, I'n not sure why I have never found it...

[Yevvy]

Thanks for that pdf team_v, I'n not sure why I have never found it...

i think its bs. were there that many incidents when someone blew their sump and caused hazard because their car was too low? i've only heard of two and both of them were on quiet streets. its just another way to rip us drivers off.

[Water Boy]

All members on this forum u must sign this to help out all our NSW folks

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/94/help-save-the-future-of-modified-cars-in-nsw

[Rocket36]

I actually think that unless a modification is done with proper ADR approvals and/or engineer's certificate then it should be illegal. I think this is a good idea and doesn't affect 99% of drivers.

[Golf Houso]

I actually think that unless a modification is done with proper ADR approvals and/or engineer's certificate then it should be illegal. I think this is a good idea and doesn't affect 99% of drivers.

What about your HG Premier? By the same logic, that car would need an engineer's certificate to just be roadworthy.

[Rocket36]

What about your HG Premier? By the same logic, that car would need an engineer's certificate to just be roadworthy.

And it has all the appropriate certs. It will need more for the work I'm doing for Targa Tasmania though.

[Manaz]

I actually think that unless a modification is done with proper ADR approvals and/or engineer's certificate then it should be illegal. I think this is a good idea and doesn't affect 99% of drivers.

This is part of the problem.

The existing rules specify that a car can't be lower than 10cm for instance, but obviously can't specify the actual height of a vehicle, as there are different vehicles with different requirements/ideal ride heights, and being that prescriptive would either be incredibly restrictive of which cars can enter the country, or the ADRs would have to be modifed every time a new car was released, and they'd become huge (containing a database of the ride height of every car ever released in Australia), and that's not their purpose.

There was a perfectly good rule in place already regarding the minimum ground clearance (10cm). The NSW government, without help from or consultation with any of the relevant bodies (including the RTA!), has decided that this rule is apparently no longer sufficient, and has made an arbitary change to the rules, meaning that previously legally modified cars are at best now required to get an engineers certificate they didn't require before, or at worst totally uncertifiable and illegal even if not deemed dangerous prior to the date of the new legislation taking effect (and remember that the expert groups who determine whether cars are safe or not weren't consulted here...).

The fact that it doesn't affect 99% of road users is immaterial. Even if that's the case, that doesn't make up for the say 0.8% of road users who it does affect who haven't actually done anything wrong under existing laws, leaving the 0.2% who have done the wrong thing but who already fell foul of the existing laws anyway, and so this new law doesn't actually fix anything, but rather simply and needlessly makes life difficult for people who've actually done nothing wrong to start with.

[Seano]

There was a perfectly good rule in place already regarding the minimum ground clearance (10cm).

...and this rule has not changed.

In the definition of lowering in the actual government produced document there is no mention of the no more than 50mm change either way rule applying to lowered vehicles......only that they must not be lower than 100mm.

The no more than 50mm change rule applies entirely to raised vehicles and applies to the gap between axle and guard...

ADR compliance is done for many versions of VWs at different suspension heights...so if you've a stock Golf and you want to run at the same low height as an R32 then that is fine....but you still need a engineers certificate/blue slip to do it in NSW......and what on Earth is the problem with that?

Certification is just another form filling exercise and only needs to happen once. Sure it might cost but you'll have just paid through the nose for some ridiculously short springs anyway.....what's another $200!!

[Rocket36]

I agree with you Manaz, but the government (as always) likes to be seen to be doing something without actually doing anything that's going to improve road safety. For instance, their are plenty of cars that shouldn't be on the road because they're unsafe but do they implement legislation to take action against such cars? No.

It's like the anti-hoon laws. A complete waste of time as there is already a road rule for EVERYTHING that can be considered hooning. This is nothing more than a vote grab and a means of raising revenue. Oh well... I guess the thing youi have to do as a car enthusiast is not provide any reason to be defected - i.e. do modifications legally and don't drive a car that can be defected. If you knowingly do, then you can't really blame anyone but yourself.

Or move to California! ;) lol On TGUK this week (the latest episode that aired in the UK on Sunday night) they had a copy of a speeding ticket. Someone in a "Bugatti 2 door" which they assume was a Veyron was booked for doing 215mph in a 65mph zone. The MOST they can get fined on the first offence was $500 or so and for a second offence it's $700 or so.

[peedman]

Well this really makes me consider whether to drop my car on its guts or not. Coilovers already cost an arm and a leg, im not really gonna fancy paying $500 for engineering on an otherwise stock car.

[Manaz]

...and this rule has not changed.

In the definition of lowering in the actual government produced document there is no mention of the no more than 50mm change either way rule applying to lowered vehicles......only that they must not be lower than 100mm.

The no more than 50mm change rule applies entirely to raised vehicles and applies to the gap between axle and guard...

ADR compliance is done for many versions of VWs at different suspension heights...so if you've a stock Golf and you want to run at the same low height as an R32 then that is fine....but you still need a engineers certificate/blue slip to do it in NSW......and what on Earth is the problem with that?

Certification is just another form filling exercise and only needs to happen once. Sure it might cost but you'll have just paid through the nose for some ridiculously short springs anyway.....what's another $200!!

That's very interesting.

This PDF (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi_50_raising-and-lowering-vehicles_17-july-2009.pdf) on the RTA website agrees with you. This one (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/newsevents/downloads/minister_releases/16072009_carhoons.pdf) disagrees (it says raising or lowering).

So, does the RTA or the minister have it right (and why does the RTA have two documents which contradict each other on its' website)?

[Preen59]

what's another $200!!

$200 is $200 mate. It's that simple. Why bury people in needless paperwork and charge fees for things that shouldn't need to be done? It's complete BS. :duh:

[gldgti]

so if you've a stock Golf and you want to run at the same low height as an R32 then that is fine....but you still need a engineers certificate/blue slip to do it in NSW......and what on Earth is the problem with that?

0!!

what wrong with that is that you have to PAY money to someone to sign a form. its simple beurocracy feeding. plain and simple.

what about me? in the last 6 weeks i went through 4 height changes with my car before i was happy. gee that would have cost me an absolute bobm to get engineered each time, not to mention the time i would have to take off work because you cant see an engineer on the weekend now can we?

i'm sorry to anyone here trying to justify this crap somehow, but its OBVIOUS to me that this is another "Those young hoons in their lowered cars should all be locked up" laws.

I agree with you preeny, might as well go and live in california or the UK. its clear that the red tape monkeys have infested australia now too.

[Rocket36]

$200 is $200 mate. It's that simple. Why bury people in needless paperwork and charge fees for things that shouldn't need to be done? It's complete BS. :duh:

But to be legal, it DOES need to be done. I think that was the point.

[Manaz]

But to be legal, it DOES need to be done. I think that was the point.

What ever happened to the presumption of innocence...

[Rocket36]

What ever happened to the presumption of innocence...

So are you saying it's OK for something to be illegal as long as authorities presume it's not? Sorry I don't quite understand your reference.

The presumtion of innocence until proven guilty applies in the judicial system, not the legal system. The legal system is black and white. It's either legal or it's not. If you knowingly modify a car illegaly, then you have nobody to blame but yourself if you get caught. Do the modification legally and you don't need to be worried. Even if you get defected, you can get it cleared easily and claim for reimbursement of any associated expences.

[Manaz]

Sorry I don't quite understand your reference.

Quite simply - if I have my car modified legally, the onus of proof is on me. Whether or not I can seek compensation for the direct costs (inspection) or even indirect costs (time off work, hassle of changing my schedule, can I claim the cost of claiming the cost, etc - unlikely) is irrelevant - once a police officer (who is extremely unlikely to be an expert in car modifications, and frankly neither should they be, they have plenty of other things they need to be on top of) decides they're suspicious, it's not up to them to prove that I've done the wrong thing - it's up to me to prove that I've done the right thing.

I don't think that's reasonable.

All that aside, the rules aren't as bad as first thought (and Daley is to blame there, his media release as hosted on the RTA website was actually wrong).

[Preen59]

So are you saying it's OK for something to be illegal as long as authorities presume it's not? Sorry I don't quite understand your reference.

The presumtion of innocence until proven guilty applies in the judicial system, not the legal system. The legal system is black and white. It's either legal or it's not. If you knowingly modify a car illegaly, then you have nobody to blame but yourself if you get caught. Do the modification legally and you don't need to be worried. Even if you get defected, you can get it cleared easily and claim for reimbursement of any associated expences.

The issue is that you shouldn't have to be put through that when clearly you are not in the wrong. And as you said it's black and white. So if you stay within the guidelines, your car is legal. Go outside the guidelines and the car is illegal.

Changing the rules so that a safe and roadworthy modification is suddenly deemed illegal is unfair. Completely unfair. :duh:

[Rocket36]

Changing the rules so that a safe and roadworthy modification is suddenly deemed illegal is unfair. Completely unfair. :duh:

Technically, modifying the components of a car (springs for example) with springs that aren't ADR complient or engineered for the car they're being put in is already illegal. So while the ride height isn't against the law, the actual modification is.

[Blitzen]

FFS Rocket, you arn't in the Air Farce any more...By the way you sound, I am beginning to think you were SP...Just cos you may have worked for the government, dosn't mean you have to agree with them all the time...

The rule that have be bought out are unfair, and to a point, unjust. As the rules stand, they don't affect me, but if I was a 4WD owner, I would be strategically poo bombing the NSW roads ministers office...Yet another reason why it is just not right to live in NSW any more...

[No457 Snowy]

Looks like ALL suspension height mods in NSW will require certification or am I reading this wrong? :duh:


http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi_50_raising-and-lowering-vehicles_17-july-2009.pdf

Could also have major implications with insurance claims invalid for lowered vehicles without the necessary certificates.


Snowy

[Rocket36]

Looks like ALL suspension height mods in NSW will require certification or am I reading this wrong? :duh:

Pretty sure to maintain 100% legality, they already do. *shrugs*

[No457 Snowy]

OK, I thought a suspension height mod was previously classified a "minor" modifcation as long as you maintained 100mm ground clearance? (ie, no engineers certificate required)

Now it appears that ANY height change from stock is now classified "major modification" and therefore requires an engineers certificate, regardless.

I noticed it was dated just 10 days ago and thought they might have snuck in a new rule.

EDIT: Just read through this (http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=31814) thread, so the correct answer to my question appears to be yes they have changed it and previously perfectly legal cars will be now illegal unless certified.


Snowy.

[The_Hawk]

The way I read that document is that any existing modifications (that are currently legal) would not require certification since thats required either at blue slip OR after modifying. Mind you there is always the chance that one of the boys in blue hands you a defect and you have to get the car checked. (lets not discuss how much we like this one).

So most of us should continue to be fine for the moment.

I have *just* gotten off the phone to the RTA so can confirm the following:

Currently modified cars DO NOT EVER need to get certified UNLESS you do something that requires a blueslip (like change something or get defected). So moving a car between states to NSW just got harder if there is any mods on the suspension.

The engineers report is definately above and beyond the blue slip. (Read $$$)


So my interpretation was correct.


Now you have to wonder if there will be a niche industry of engineers (or some friendly engineers) that will provide quick and cheap certification for simple suspension jobs.

So if I change my suspension because it's old and busted I assume I don't need certification as long as it doesn't change the ride height (or does Mum and Dads 10 year old Commodore now cost that much more to fix).

[Manaz]

From the other thread:


That's very interesting.

This PDF (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi_50_raising-and-lowering-vehicles_17-july-2009.pdf) on the RTA website agrees with you. This one (http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/newsevents/downloads/minister_releases/16072009_carhoons.pdf) disagrees (it says raising or lowering).

So, does the RTA or the minister have it right (and why does the RTA have two documents which contradict each other on its' website)?

It seems that the laws regarding lowering have not changed at all. The minister appears to have gotten it wrong in his press release, probably in the rush to look to be doing something about car hoons...

[No457 Snowy]

Wasn't it possible to fit coilovers or say Eibach springs previously without an engineers certificate? I thought you could as long as the vehicle retained 100mm minimum ground clearance.

The way I'm interpreting it you now MUST get an engineer certificate if you deviate lower than stock height at all.

Or was that always the rule as Rocket36 points out?


Snowy.

[The_Hawk]

The way I'm interpreting it you now MUST get an engineer certificate if you deviate lower than stock height at all.

Or was that always the rule as Rocket36 points out?

Since it was a minor modification it never needed to be engineered so long as the vehicle itself was still within the ADR standards. While you could get a defect notice to prove it was legal, your normal run of the mill Blue Slip place could say the ride height was appropriate.

Now ANY change needs an engineers report, although only if it's made after 12/07/2009 (or you get defected or need a blue slip).

So quick, get your coils in before the 31st :D



...Now we need people to go out and hunt up some friendly engineers who want to provide said certification for suspension on our dubs and post up a sticky with locations and prices (where available).

[Rocket36]

Wasn't it possible to fit coilovers or say Eibach springs previously without an engineers certificate? I thought you could as long as the vehicle retained 100mm minimum ground clearance.

The way I'm interpreting it you now MUST get an engineer certificate if you deviate lower than stock height at all.

Or was that always the rule as Rocket36 points out?


Snowy.


Since it was a minor modification it never needed to be engineered so long as the vehicle itself was still within the ADR standards. While you could get a defect notice to prove it was legal, your normal run of the mill Blue Slip place could say the ride height was appropriate.

Now ANY change needs an engineers report, although only if it's made after 12/07/2009 (or you get defected or need a blue slip).

So quick, get your coils in before the 31st :D



...Now we need people to go out and hunt up some friendly engineers who want to provide said certification for suspension on our dubs and post up a sticky with locations and prices (where available).

This has a fair bit of grey area I think. Individual components also have their own ADR which a lot of the after market stuff doesn't not have as it costs companies a lot to get ADR approval for products, which in turn would push up retail costs and they'd lose customers. That doesn't mean their products don't - most of them are a lot better than stock components. So while the ride hide is legal, the individual components technically might not be. Doesn't mean you'd fail an inspection or be un-roadworthy, it just technically means the modification would still be illegal.

That's my interpretation though and I'm not sure it's 100% accurate and why I think there's a whole lot of grey area. Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless a car is stock (everything stock meets ADR standards approval or it can't be sold) or the modified components meet ADR standards, then it requires an engineers certification to be legal.

[No457 Snowy]

They have so many conflicting and poorly thought out regulations:

The RTA has a database of standard vehicle suspension/wheel specs for different models and their acceptable limits, so I looked up my Golf:

I looked up the specs for a 2004 Golf and it says hub centre to wheel arch stock measurement is 370mm at the front with a RTA specified minimum acceptable measurement of 353mm. The GTI came 15mm lower already, so that's 355mm ( ie, 15mm down from 370mm). So they are saying the car can settle 2mm and then it's illegal. :duh:


Snowy.