Bad road times here... [Archive] - VWWatercooled Australia

gtimk5

10-07-2009, 09:12 PM

A lot of Tasmanians are in mourning today after the worst single day of road deaths yesterday in history for Tassie.
Ice and freezing conditions accounted for the first double fatality near Hobart early in the morning followed by a shocker on the Midlands highway later in the morning...
That caused chaos with the road closed for hours while they took away 4 dead people from that one.
Then late in the afternoon the same highway took another 2 lives (at least thats what they reported) until they realised 3 hours later that a 3 1/2 year old was sposed to be in one of the cars that had been crushed by a container. It took the rescuers a fair bit longer to find the childs body in the carnage. The press werent allowed to visit that accident as it was far too tragic and graphic...
I think its terrible and its amazing how some people dont drive to the conditions.
That was 9 fatalities in one day which is tragic for anywhere.
Our road toll is now 46 for 2009 while the total for 2008 was 40

Please drive safe this weekend.....
Andrew

Stan

10-07-2009, 10:00 PM

smart thoughts there Andrew. I'm a paramedic and see the results of this all the time. On the public road, in the wet, with other people around is no way to be in a hurry, lack concerntration or do race / drift practice.
Stay safe dubbers...

SoVeReIgN

10-07-2009, 10:43 PM

Maverick

10-07-2009, 11:09 PM

Pretty full on, I don't think speed and other driver restrictions have been effective as the government has hoped.

We need to train drivers better, change attitudes and spend more money on making our roads physically safer.

Agreed, all the governments have done is create a bunch of drivers who only know how to watch their speedo and drive at whatever speed is indicated on a sign. The only solution is to make drivers responsible for their actions and make them capable of thought and this can only be done be removing draconian speed restrictions, stupid "safety" campaigns like "every K over is a killer", the removal of speed cameras and replacement with more police on the road looking for stupid idiots not someone going 10kph over, proper driver training including retesting every 5 years and the stupid mindset that a drivers license is a right.

The driver training should be more like Germany, make it cost a few thousand dollars and make the drivers understand how to drive not just pass a test. Germany also requires you to attend a first aid course as part of the process and mandatory vehicle inspections.

h100vw

10-07-2009, 11:21 PM

The standard of the average driver in Adelaide is pretty poor. The tailgating is a shocker and it does make me cringe when I see mums on the school run right up the exhaust of the car in front...

The other one that makes me wonder what is going on in the heads of fellow motorists is the speed they travel at in the wet. Especially after it has been dry for weeks in the summer.

Instead of lining the states pockets on straight pieces of expressway, the cops should be pulling up the brain donors that are carving through the city traffic.

I enjoyed driving in Germany when I worked there for 9 months. On the autobahns, you had to keep an eye on your "six" or risk retina burn from a 911 or big Merc. It really kept you on your toes. Far better drivers when you have extremes of weather to contend with. Look at where the top WRC drivers come from.

Be vigilant and anticipate.:driver:

Gavin

Greg Roles

11-07-2009, 08:26 AM

Gee, that's sad news indeed. It's the flow on effect that is the worst, all the families and friends who will be in mourning today.

I feel the problem has far more to do with people being so uptight and aggressive these days typified by the tailgating soccer mum in the SUV. How often do people drive, yet their mind is a million miles away, on all their perceived problems, and they are only partly aware of what they are doing. We've all been guilty of it, and I think people forget they are indeed piloting a lethal weapon.

Just a few weeks back I had some of the worst road rage I've ever experienced, and it was from a red P plate chickie in a Barina. I've never seen anything like it, absolute madness, and it made me realise here's a 40kg teeny, in a baby car, who has just lost it. She even passed me on the verge, pulled up me and the lane of traffic and got out, looking for more!

Giving a nutjob like that driving skills isn't going to do that much I'm afraid.

gtimk5

11-07-2009, 08:58 AM

The authorities are up in arms over the toll this year down here. No matter how much they push the safety message through the amount of carnage increases.
A few years ago they allowed 6 B Doubles on only certain designated roads down here. As any visitor to Tas would know the roads arent really designed for them. The locals didnt want them and the local rail transport is in tatters and about 30 years behind in development as are our highways with few overtaking lanes and lots of hills and mountains. These days every second truck you see is a B Double!! I am not blaming the poor old truckies who see carnage every week these days but the rate of car/truck incidents have risen so much it seems every second night on the news they show some pretty bad accidents. Its a catch 22 situation. Talking to a local ambo driver he reckons some people take their own lives on purpose driving head on into trucks on dead straight sections of highways.
Take the afternoon accident on thursday, dead straight road, car drives head on into a B Double which caused the truck to roll, a container fell off the back and landed on top of the next vehicle travelling towards it. That one had a father and his child in it...
When I drive I always have the attitude that every other driver is a twit and looking for an accident and give them as much room as I can. Not saying they are dumb but with my attitude it gives me time to react.
That being said, it didnt help me years ago on a couple of occasions. Driving around a corner I was faced with a falcon on the wrong side of the road. The driver was looking at a horse in a paddock. He was a competitive driver as well who competed regularly in racing here. My golf ended up on top of his bonnet near the windscreen. Another was turning right at an intersection and a fella was by far exceeding the speed limit in this built up area and pulled out to overtake. Lined us up nicely so we slammed a service station pole resulting in a burnt and seriously damaged golf.
Everytime you leave your driveway, remember people, no matter who you are, you are not invincible.
I feel for the medics and emergency services who have some serious images burnt into their minds these days...

Rocket36

11-07-2009, 12:18 PM

I am not blaming the poor old truckies who see carnage every week these days but the rate of car/truck incidents have risen so much it seems every second night on the news they show some pretty bad accidents.

Crashes... Not accidents. Accidents implies they're not avoidable, which they are. Too many people in cars have little or no respoect for truck drivers. Sure, some truck drivers are idiots but they need to be given room. Also remember, they're PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS so are probably more skilled behind the wheel than almost every car on the road. If people gave them the respect they deserver there wouldn't be a problem.

Its a catch 22 situation. Talking to a local ambo driver he reckons some people take their own lives on purpose driving head on into trucks on dead straight sections of highways.
Take the afternoon accident on thursday, dead straight road, car drives head on into a B Double which caused the truck to roll, a container fell off the back and landed on top of the next vehicle travelling towards it. That one had a father and his child in it...

Again, you mean CRASH. Glad that Ambo is an Ambo and not a Crash Investigator. The pychology of suicidal people is usual very inward. Meaning they almost never want to take other people with them. Sure some have a vendetta against others or society in general, but on dead straight sections of road, it's usually fatigue or boredom that cause serious crashes. Momentary lapse in concentration, drift into the oncoming traffic etc.

When I drive I always have the attitude that every other driver is a twit and looking for an accident and give them as much room as I can. Not saying they are dumb but with my attitude it gives me time to react.
That being said, it didnt help me years ago on a couple of occasions. Driving around a corner I was faced with a falcon on the wrong side of the road. The driver was looking at a horse in a paddock. He was a competitive driver as well who competed regularly in racing here. My golf ended up on top of his bonnet near the windscreen. Another was turning right at an intersection and a fella was by far exceeding the speed limit in this built up area and pulled out to overtake. Lined us up nicely so we slammed a service station pole resulting in a burnt and seriously damaged golf.
Everytime you leave your driveway, remember people, no matter who you are, you are not invincible.
I feel for the medics and emergency services who have some serious images burnt into their minds these days...

Agreed! Drive like you're invisible. Adhere to the road rules, drive to the conditions, the limits of your car and the limits of your skill but most importantly, PAY ATTENTION TO DRIVING!

SoVeReIgN

11-07-2009, 04:16 PM

Too many people in cars have little or no respoect for truck drivers. Sure, some truck drivers are idiots but they need to be given room. Also remember, they're PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS so are probably more skilled behind the wheel than almost every car on the road. If people gave them the respect they deserver there wouldn't be a problem.

Taxi drivers are Professional drivers too :monkeypiss:

Rocket36

11-07-2009, 04:44 PM

Taxi drivers are Professional drivers too :monkeypiss:

So... What's your point?

Preen59

11-07-2009, 04:44 PM

I feel that one of the biggest problems is that the RTA (or equivalent) is telling people "Drive to the conditions", but they aren't actually training people in how to do that.

You can't learn to drive by answering multiple choice questions or reading a book.. You need to be out in those conditions with someone that knows what they are doing (NOT the parents of the kids on L plates etc.. I know it's not just young drivers, but that's where everyone started their bad habits..) and being shown how to control your vehicle in those situations. :driver:

Lowering speed limits, putting in variable speed zones and putting up "slippery when wet" signs is pointless when people aren't obeying the bloody things anyway.. :duh:

Rocket36

11-07-2009, 04:46 PM

Preen59

11-07-2009, 04:59 PM

Agreed! The complete lack of any proper training before getting a licence in Australia is pathetic! It costs about the same as $12,000 AUD for the required training in a lot of European countries before you get a licence. Makes for safer roads because the drivers are better trained.

Yep.

They're stating that driving is supposed to be a privilege and not a right, but..

The Authorities are always contradicting themselves too. The RTA put a ban on forced induction, V8's and high performance 6 cylinder cars for P platers and then made an exemption for the Holden 'S' pack commodore and the Ford XR6 because "These cars are very common in households and it would disadvantage too many young drivers to ban them"..

So in one breath, "Hey, if you want to drive a car you have to do it by OUR rules.." And then in the next breath "Oh, no, you can drive THAT particular high performance vehicle, we know there's too many of you whose fathers have one and it would be unfair to disallow you to drive it.."

-Mandatory complex driver training.
-Mandatory power to weight limit for young drivers with no exceptions.
-Mandatory refresher driving tests for EVERYONE focusing on car control and perception, not just whether you can do a hill start.. :duh:

If you can't drive Daddy's XR6 or mummys CLK, harden up and go buy yourself a Corolla.

Maverick

12-07-2009, 01:09 AM

Agreed! Drive like you're invisible. Adhere to the road rules, drive to the conditions, the limits of your car and the limits of your skill but most importantly, PAY ATTENTION TO DRIVING!

I agree with most of that except the road rules part and this is part of the problem, overtaking safely requires you to exceed the speed limit even if there is an overtaking lane and driving at a safe speed which minimises fatigue and time on the road also requires you to exceed the speed limit. The whole "speed kills" rubbish has to end and the government needs to address the real issues not just one that is easy to measure and police using cameras.

maca

12-07-2009, 09:39 AM

Yep.

They're stating that driving is supposed to be a privilege and not a right, but..

The Authorities are always contradicting themselves too. The RTA put a ban on forced induction, V8's and high performance 6 cylinder cars for P platers and then made an exemption for the Holden 'S' pack commodore and the Ford XR6 because "These cars are very common in households and it would disadvantage too many young drivers to ban them"..

So in one breath, "Hey, if you want to drive a car you have to do it by OUR rules.." And then in the next breath "Oh, no, you can drive THAT particular high performance vehicle, we know there's too many of you whose fathers have one and it would be unfair to disallow you to drive it.."

-Mandatory complex driver training.
-Mandatory power to weight limit for young drivers with no exceptions.
-Mandatory refresher driving tests for EVERYONE focusing on car control and perception, not just whether you can do a hill start.. :duh:

If you can't drive Daddy's XR6 or mummys CLK, harden up and go buy yourself a Corolla.

Well said Preeny. That exemption is a load of rubbish and shouldn't be allowed. In QLD; I wouldn't be allowed to drive a gutless C200 Kompressor but it's perfectly legal for me to drive an R32.. Makes sense doesn't it?

I agree with most of that except the road rules part and this is part of the problem, overtaking safely requires you to exceed the speed limit even if there is an overtaking lane and driving at a safe speed which minimises fatigue and time on the road also requires you to exceed the speed limit. The whole "speed kills" rubbish has to end and the government needs to address the real issues not just one that is easy to measure and police using cameras.

I don't see the point in overtaking if you're already going the speed limit... And let's face it, speed cameras are only there to raise money. If they weren't, they wouldn't use black vans at night and almost hide them so they're invisible on the aide of the road.

Coaster

12-07-2009, 10:22 AM

I nearly had a serious crash yesterday. Riding my bicycle, coming up to a roundabout I slowed down, there was a commodore slowly coming up to the roundabout on the left, so I thought he'd seen me and I made my way through the roundabout. Except the commy kept going through! It was a matter of inches between my bike and their bumper, luckily they saw me at the very last moment. I had to stretch my bike as far out of the way as possible, I really thought they were going to hit me, I was just waiting for the crunch.

The number of times I have nearly been hit by cars not paying attention when they pull out from intersections and roundabouts beggars belief. And I always present myself front and centre coming up to the roundabout with a bright red t-shirt on with a big gold star on the front.

I have learnt to establish eye contact with drivers as they pull up to these places so I know they've seen me, but with window tinting that is impossible sometimes. It's only for the fact that I have pre-empted the sloppy skills of drivers that has kept me from being hit by other road-users.

This story is symptomatic of the poor attention of many drivers that invariably lead to crashes with all manner of transport on the road.

mikinoz

12-07-2009, 11:15 AM

I am really moved by the Tasmanian road toll this year.

Statistically, it is far less than in the pre 1970's where over 100 people a year died in Tasmania - but this drives home a real point that there are issues.

My brother in law has been a driving instructor for the RACT for 5 years and now is on the Transport licence testing team - who do your testing for 'P' plates etc. He has told me that he has made a personal decision to be more diligent at making sure that those that should not be getting their provisionals fail their test - and make sure that they are aware that they are not invincible from the get go.

I used to drive the highway that the fatalities occurred on 2 time a week for 3 years and the number of near misses I had in peak times went beyond 2 hands. In the end I travelled after 10pm to have the road to myself.

9 people in a population of 500K is a considerable toll for a single day - I hope there are moves to improve transport in the state.

Take care Andrew.

gtimk5

12-07-2009, 01:10 PM

Interesting statistic in the paper here yesterday,
If the same percentage of population died in one day in NSW then that would equate to 126 lives.
And to the number on the Midlands hwy, if it happened on the M3, I think it was, which is roughly the same distance then it would equate to 89 lives in a single day.
Sort of puts things in perspective and I am sure you all can feel the grief going on down here.
The police and the local radio stations are now having a "dob in stupid behaviour" with a dedicated phone line for the police to monitor.
With an AFL game going on up north today I imagine there will be a huge police presence on the highway.
High visibility police cars rather than having them hidden behind trees with cameras would help a bit.
It is interesting that with all the narrow windy roads down here most of the accidents are on straight boring roads......
All said though, its no use blaming any one problem, it should be a combined effort by everyone, from politicians and police to every individual driver to work on this problem.....
Andrew

h100vw

12-07-2009, 01:39 PM

Agreed! The complete lack of any proper training before getting a licence in Australia is pathetic! It costs about the same as $12,000 AUD for the required training in a lot of European countries before you get a licence. Makes for safer roads because the drivers are better trained.

It's no where near that in the UK. I know Germany is harder but doubt it's anywhere near as much.

I reckon some time on a motorbike would change the standard of driving. You certainly consider the road surface and conditions more.

Eyeballing car drivers at junctions works for me, in the car and on a push bike. It's much harder for them to pull the didn't see you card when you know full well they looked right at you.

I am stunned that Australian society hasn't called for a change in the rules, preventing young kids going out in anything with rear wheel drive.

When I learnt to drive, no one could afford to drive anything that was remotely considered to be performance oriented. You never saw someone at Uni in a VR6 Golf or Polo GTI( or the equivalent from 20 years ago) they'd be walking or taking a bus.

There's more cars on the road now and if miles travelled were taken into consideration then the toll has most likely reduced overall. That doesn't mean it's at acceptable level as far as the public is concerned.

Awareness and anticipation will go a long way to preventing accidents/crashes but will never eradicate them.

Gavin

Maverick

12-07-2009, 02:07 PM

I don't see the point in overtaking if you're already going the speed limit...

The whole idea of overtaking is to pass slower moving vehicles like trucks, caravans and old people.

Let's assume a truck doing 90kph in a 100kph zone. You want to overtake this truck legally by not exceeding 100kph. How many kilometres of clear road will this require?

~2kms

Or the same truck that is doing 95kph.

~4 kms

90kph is 25m/s
100kph is 27.8m/s

Distance to pass:[/B] 90m
2 seconds gap from truck is 50m
Car is 5m
Truck is 25m
Allow 10m clearance in front of truck to pull back in
That's 90m you have to cover on the wrong side of the road
Time to pass is: 90m divided by 2.8m/s = 32.1 seconds
Distance to pass: 27.8m/s times 31.2s = 867m
Allowance for oncoming traffic doing 100kph: 867m
Distance required to pass (867 + 867 + 10% safety margin): 1900m.

Let's break the law and overtake at 120kph and it's a completely different scenario.

120kph = 33.3m/s
Time to pass is: 90m divided by 8.3m/s = 10.8 seconds
Distance to pass: 33.3m/s times 10.8s = 359m
Allowance for oncoming traffic doing 120kph: 359m
Distance required to pass (359 + 359 + 10% safety margin): 789m.

Let's move into the lose your license scenario and overtake at 140kph and it's a completely different scenario again.

140kph = 38.8m/s
Time to pass is: 90m divided by 13.8m/s = 6.52 seconds
Distance to pass: 38.8m/s times 6.52s = 252m
Allowance for oncoming traffic doing 140kph: 252m
Distance required to pass (252 + 252 + 10% safety margin): 554m.

And let's face it, speed cameras are only there to raise money. If they weren't, they wouldn't use black vans at night and almost hide them so they're invisible on the aide of the road.

They're not black but navy blue!

Maverick

12-07-2009, 02:16 PM

It's no where near that in the UK. I know Germany is harder but doubt it's anywhere near as much.

~$2000-$3000 in Germany depending on if you have a license from another country etc etc.

I am stunned that Australian society hasn't called for a change in the rules, preventing young kids going out in anything with rear wheel drive.

Those rules restricting the type of cars do nothing at all, put them in a lower powered car and they can go just as fast but generally don't have the suspension or the brakes to cope. It doesn't matter if you hit a tree at 150 in a VL commodore turbo or at 110 in a Datsun, the end result is you're still dead. Of course the VL commodore one will hit the paper and have all the idiots jumping up and down.

There's more cars on the road now and if miles travelled were taken into consideration then the toll has most likely reduced overall. That doesn't mean it's at acceptable level as far as the public is concerned.

I don't see that we can reduce the road toll much more given the state of the roads, the state of the cars and the total idiots on the road. Personally I think we need to stop focusing on every car death and look at the number of people that kill them selves every day (and some of these are by car), and the number of deaths from alcohol, drugs and smoking as these are all things that if they spent some money on could make a massive dent in the number of deaths each year.

At the end of the day people die every day and only a tiny percentage in car accidents/crashes/stupidity so the spotlight and limited resources should be directed elsewhere and suicides are a logical place to start along with alcohol, drugs and smoking.

qsilverza

12-07-2009, 02:22 PM

Nice numbers. And I agree, thank god I wasn't given a WRX or something similar when I was younger to drive ! In South Africa the best you could hope for if your parents weren't crazy was maybe a citi golf 1.6 or more than likely a 1.3. I used to drive a civic 1.6 with FWD and yes there are always hairy times but in australia your average P driver is driving a holden commodore or Ford falcon with a BIG six and rwd. Not really an ideal combination is it ? I think the chances are you can easily wind the other way round if you are being young and ignorant !

The whole idea of overtaking is to pass slower moving vehicles like trucks, caravans and old people.

Let's assume a truck doing 90kph in a 100kph zone. You want to overtake this truck legally by not exceeding 100kph. How many kilometres of clear road will this require?

~2kms

Or the same truck that is doing 95kph.

~4 kms

90kph is 25m/s
100kph is 27.8m/s

Distance to pass:[/B] 90m
2 seconds gap from truck is 50m
Car is 5m
Truck is 25m
Allow 10m clearance in front of truck to pull back in
That's 90m you have to cover on the wrong side of the road
Time to pass is: 90m divided by 2.8m/s = 32.1 seconds
Distance to pass: 27.8m/s times 31.2s = 867m
Allowance for oncoming traffic doing 100kph: 867m
Distance required to pass (867 + 867 + 10% safety margin): 1900m.

Let's break the law and overtake at 120kph and it's a completely different scenario.

120kph = 33.3m/s
Time to pass is: 90m divided by 8.3m/s = 10.8 seconds
Distance to pass: 33.3m/s times 10.8s = 359m
Allowance for oncoming traffic doing 120kph: 359m
Distance required to pass (359 + 359 + 10% safety margin): 789m.

Let's move into the lose your license scenario and overtake at 140kph and it's a completely different scenario again.

140kph = 38.8m/s
Time to pass is: 90m divided by 13.8m/s = 6.52 seconds
Distance to pass: 38.8m/s times 6.52s = 252m
Allowance for oncoming traffic doing 140kph: 252m
Distance required to pass (252 + 252 + 10% safety margin): 554m.

They're not black but navy blue!

Rocket36

12-07-2009, 04:46 PM

I get sick of the argument about performance cars... Cars don't kill people, people kill people. You can cause just as much damage in a Hyundai Excel as you can in a HSV. It's about driver training and some serious attitude adjustments, NOTHING MORE!

Anyone should be allowed to drive whatever they want provided they pass very strict testing, both for road rules, car control and attitude - which can be assessed by means of a pych test.

Greg Roles

12-07-2009, 05:24 PM

Having had both ends of that spectrum mate, that's a load of bullocks. My first car couldn't make 100kph, nor get up the local mountains, and it kept me alive. My BA GT allowed you to go stupid speeds quite quickly, and I overcooked it on more than one occasion. Just like your car, in young hands, you're going to get into trouble a whole lot faster. My kids will be starting out in something very pathetic.

For once I agree with the government policy of restricting power for younger drivers, and even the recent changes to motorcycle laws is a similar move in the right direction. Far more useful than making us adhere to pushbike speeds around the suburbs.

I also agree that to continue to drive, you should be re-tested every three years, and complete harder tests as you head up the performance / mass scale. Make those SUV Mum's work for it.

mikinoz

12-07-2009, 05:56 PM

So instead of debating in here over what should be done, how about if you are passionate about your position you draft a letter to your local roads authority and place a copy here - letting us know what feedback you get from your input.

In reality, I nor anyone else here makes the decisions, so maybe we should put the money where the mouth is so to speak and then we may move forward.

Likewise - my first car was humble 875cc and could barely get up a steep hill with 3 people in it. I kept it the right side up and also out of trouble. My next car was 1600cc more powerful - I got myself in to more trouble with that on gravel and in the wet than the previous car despite having more than 4 years experience. I think that with age comes maturity and experience and new drivers should be like motorcyclists and restricted for 4 years to sub 100KW cars, NA, and made to pass benchmarks at each year of their provisional licence to ensure as they progress to a full licence holder that they are worthy.

gtimk5

12-07-2009, 06:24 PM

The subject of my thread here did not involve drivers under 28 yo.
There were no high powered cars involved....
This is not a debate over what we need to get changed, its a thread to remind every member or visitor here to take care. No matter who you are, you are not invincible. I know this as I am a victim of this sort of stupidity having lost my dad to a red lighter when I was 11yo....
And while I am driving down the Hume on monday week in my highly visible new Caddy van, I will be looking out!!! I want to enjoy this vehicle!
Andrew

Satanstoenail

12-07-2009, 06:42 PM

Agreed, all the governments have done is create a bunch of drivers who only know how to watch their speedo and drive at whatever speed is indicated on a sign. The only solution is to make drivers responsible for their actions and make them capable of thought and this can only be done be removing draconian speed restrictions, stupid "safety" campaigns like "every K over is a killer", the removal of speed cameras and replacement with more police on the road looking for stupid idiots not someone going 10kph over, proper driver training including retesting every 5 years and the stupid mindset that a drivers license is a right.

The driver training should be more like Germany, make it cost a few thousand dollars and make the drivers understand how to drive not just pass a test. Germany also requires you to attend a first aid course as part of the process and mandatory vehicle inspections.

Totally agree with all of this. Can't see any of it happening any time soon though unfortunately. :frown:

Crashes... Not accidents. Accidents implies they're not avoidable, which they are....

....Again, you mean CRASH.

Actually the word accident by definition implies that an incident was unintentional, not unavoidable. If a driver wasn't trained well enough or wasn't concentrating hard enough it doesn't mean they meant to crash, it is still an accident. Getting caught up on terminology is unnecessary. Crash or accident, it's all the same result.