E10 unleaded,does it work?

[Tigga1]

has anyone tried the E10 fuel in the Tig, does it work?
it's a big price difference, so may be worth it.

Although, maybe these german engines are very particular...:-]

[clip]

Forget it Tigga if you get the remap - Ultra premium (98 octane) only sorry.

[WEDEL.1]

I read on a pump that it increases fuel comsumption.

Maris

[phaeton]

Thats the alcohol content ;) :D

[tiguan_hunting]

This question is well timed. Last months RACV magazine has an article discussing the pros and cons of E10 fuel.
In summary they found that you will use more E10 fuel compared to RON91. However the consumption difference is far greater than the savings. I think the price difference is about 4 cents. So in short the article argues that you will spend more money filling up with E10.
I would also check whether the Tig can actually take E10.

[clip]

I would also check whether the Tig can actually take E10.
VW recommend min of 95.

[Tigga1]

VW recommend min of 95.

that's why my question, coz it says 95Ron at the E10 pump, and is about 24c cheaper than 98Ron V-Power...

[brad]

that's why my question, coz it says 95Ron at the E10 pump, and is about 24c cheaper than 98Ron V-Power...
Does it? Which e10 is that?

If you look up the Tech data sheets of the big4 they actually quote their E10 as being in a range between 92-94ron. The only supplier that I'm aware of that claims 95ron is United for their e10 offering (Boost95?).

Why is it 24c/L cheaper? Generally the e10 save is 3c on ULP & 98ron is a 15c premium to ULP so the difference is 18c.

What is most important is how many c/km it costs you to run the engine. You will only find that out if you keep meticulous fuel records & try each fuel type for a minimum of 2000km.
In the case of my Skoda, the reduced fuel consumption using 98ron offsets the price difference between 95ron & 98ron, therefore it costs me an extra $50 in 25,000km to run 98ron with all the additional benefits of better power down low, more powerful detergent/additive pack, etc.

I guess if you were really keen on trying to "save" $5 a week you could alternate between e10 & 98 with fill-ups every half tank.

[Sharkie]

VW requires 98 Premium at all times. (Even though the filler cap says 95). I have an email from VW Australia where I asked about ethanol fuels and they replied that:

1. Anything with more than 10% ethanol will void your warranty.
2. Anything less than PULP (98 RON) will void your warranty.

They were quite specific about that .......

So, do not put anything but 98 in your TSI. In a pinch run 95 but fill up with 98 as soon as you can afterwards.

I posted this email up in the Polo section about a year ago, if you want it go look for it.:)

Don't bother looking found it .... http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=3172&highlight=shell+100&page=5

[Tigga1]

VW requires 98 Premium at all times. (Even though the filler cap says 95). I have an email from VW Australia where I asked about ethanol fuels and they replied that:

1. Anything with more than 10% ethanol will void your warranty.
2. Anything less than PULP (98 RON) will void your warranty.

They were quite specific about that .......

So, do not put anything but 98 in your TSI. In a pinch run 95 but fill up with 98 as soon as you can afterwards.

I posted this email up in the Polo section about a year ago, if you want it go look for it.:)

Don't bother looking found it ....

http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=3172&highlight=shell+100&page=5

Sharkie, thanks for your insights, really good.

Brad, touchee...

you' ve both answered my question, and I will fill up 98RON whenever I can, hang the expense...

When you buy the Tig, obviously it's not about 5c here or there, it was more curiosity when I found out that the E10 claims 95 Ron and filler cap recommends 95...coincidence...?

and, as Clip says, if you go with the remap, surely anything less than 98 is out of the question...!

thanks guys, having my car "ascertained" tomorrow... that is, whether it's in the "code"...

let you know

[Sanman]

it was more curiosity when I found out that the E10 claims 95 Ron
Ethanol has a lower calorific or burn value than petrol, so a mix of it will give you less oomph despite it matching the octane rating which basically is a measure of how much the fuel can be compressed before exploding.

[dogbowl]

I have a Honda Accord Euro, which takes E10. I could feel no difference in power (compared to 98 RON) or fuel consumption, although that is not scientific. I am sure it would be the same in a Tiguan.

[brad]

I have a Honda Accord Euro, which takes E10. I could feel no difference in power (compared to 98 RON) or fuel consumption, although that is not scientific. I am sure it would be the same in a Tiguan.

NA compared to turbo? Is the Honda direct injection/Fuel Stratified Injection?

My FIL says he gets no difference in power or fuel consumption with any grade of petrol in his '98 V6 Camry - fair enough, he keeps fuel consumption records & according to him it doesn't have knock sensors.

In my 1.8TSI e10 affects fuel economy by almost 1L/100km (about 10%) which nearly offsets the smaller c/L

[BigVW]

that's why my question, coz it says 95Ron at the E10 pump, and is about 24c cheaper than 98Ron V-Power...

Hi All,

Just want to share my opinion on this topic, because I am in the same boat and try to find a logicalanswer.

I have also wrote to VW Australia to ask then whether my Tiguan TSI engine can handle the E10 fuel or not, I got the similar answer, which they told me 98RON recommended. But this is not a acceptable answer because,

1. Both the car manual and fuel tank label clearly indicate min 95RON is required. – How can VW Australia given a confused answer like this?

2. E10, VW Australia said no E10 is allowed in the TSI engine, but why Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries says YES for E10 on all VW fuel injected models post 1986. link Can my vehicle operate on Ethanol blend petrol? : FCAI (http://www.fcai.com.au/environment/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol-)


I have tried to ask VW Australian for explanation why they responded to this issue are so not match their own manual and government resource. I haven’t no heard a thing from them for more than 2 yrs.

[brad]

Big VW: are you talking about e10 (94ron) or 95ron (no ethanol from the big names)?

This probably answers your question best:

Volkswagen All Volkswagen petrol engine vehicles will operate satisfactorily on E10 but Volkswagen does not recommend it.(got it off the internet so it must be true).

I can see the value in running 92E10 compared to 98ron if it makes no difference to fuel consumption or power - the extra 18c a litre is significant if there's no advantage but 95ron is only 5c (4%) cheaper than 98ron. What's 4% of your total fuel bill? About $100/year if you do 25,000km. That's what it costs me. That's like 1 less beer/coffee per week. My missus would blow $100 every month on ill-considered clothing purchases so I'm guilt free on buying 98ron.

BigVW: If VW haven't got back to you after 2 years then your request is probably in the round file just under the desk.

[Diesel_vert]

Hi All,

Just want to share my opinion on this topic, because I am in the same boat and try to find a logicalanswer.

I have also wrote to VW Australia to ask then whether my Tiguan TSI engine can handle the E10 fuel or not, I got the similar answer, which they told me 98RON recommended. But this is not a acceptable answer because,

1. Both the car manual and fuel tank label clearly indicate min 95RON is required. – How can VW Australia given a confused answer like this?

2. E10, VW Australia said no E10 is allowed in the TSI engine, but why Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries says YES for E10 on all VW fuel injected models post 1986. link Can my vehicle operate on Ethanol blend petrol? : FCAI (http://www.fcai.com.au/environment/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol-)


I have tried to ask VW Australian for explanation why they responded to this issue are so not match their own manual and government resource. I haven’t no heard a thing from them for more than 2 yrs.

At the very least, TSI engines require fuel that meets EN228 (the European standard for petrol). EN228 specifies a minimum RON of 95 and a minimum MON of 85, as does the Australian specification for premium unleaded.

TSI engines are also compatible with petrol than contains up to 10% ethanol (E10).

Some (but not all) TSI engines recommend the use of super unleaded (98 RON), though no damage will be caused by using premium unleaded (95 RON). Refer to the sticker in your fuel flap specifically for the recommended fuel (it may be different, even if within the same model range).

...

In Australia, the majority of E10 blends are mixed with regular unleaded (91 RON), which gives it a final RON of 93~95 and a MON of 81~83.

Regular unleaded E10 does not meet EN228 standards, nor does it meet the Australian spec for premium unleaded, so they are not suitable for cars that require premium unleaded (i.e. most European cars).

United Petroleum sells two grades of premium unleaded E10 (98 and 100 RON) which are suitable for ethanol-compatible cars that require premium unleaded. The only problem is that they are not as widely distributed as some other fuels.

[wai]

As for the manual and filler flap saying 95 RON when they recommend 98 RON, this would be put down to Errors and Omissions Excepted.

On the FCAI saying YES to E10, they are not the ones offering any warranty.

The NSW government (former Labor) mandated a progressive increase in substituted bio fuels for petrol until it now stands at 6%. The Labor government had actually intended to withdraw Standard ULP, but the new government decided not to ban Standard ULP, however they still maintained the mandated substitution. The reason we have E10 has to do with the distribution mix of SULP and PULP. If the refiners fail to sell the required amount of E10, they are hit with fines which will then see the ethanol added to PULP as well. This is why you will sometimes see PULP pumps "out of action", forcing motorists to use E10 or find another service station that will sell PULP.

So the whole situation is a mess, and will only get worse.

[tigger73]

I filled up once with 100RON from United and there was a noticeable performance improvement over the usual Caltex 98 I usually run. I'm not sure if it was E10 or not but the 100RON certainly ran a lot better.

[Diesel_vert]

I filled up once with 100RON from United and there was a noticeable performance improvement over the usual Caltex 98 I usually run. I'm not sure if it was E10 or not but the 100RON certainly ran a lot better.

Premium 100 is a E10 blend. If I were to make an educated guess, it's probably been blended with 98 RON fuel.

Fun facts about ethanol:



Charge Cooling Effects on Knock Limits in SI DI Engines Using Gasoline/Ethanol Blends:
Part 2 - Effective Octane Numbers (http://papers.sae.org/2012-01-1284/)

Abstract:

Spark Ignited Direct Injection (SI DI) of fuel extends engine knock limits compared to
Port Fuel Injection (PFI) by utilizing the large in-cylinder charge cooling effect due to
fuel evaporation. The use of gasoline/ethanol blends in direct injection (DI) is therefore
especially advantageous due to the high heat of vaporization of ethanol. In addition to
the thermal benefit due to charge cooling, ethanol blends also display superior chemical
resistance to autoignition, therefore allowing the further extension of knock limits.
Unlike the charge cooling benefit which is realized mostly in SI DI engines, the chemical
benefit of ethanol blends exists in Port Fuel Injected (PFI) engines as well. The aim of
this study is to separate and quantify the effect of fuel chemistry and charge cooling
on knock.

[wai]

I filled up once with 100RON from United and there was a noticeable performance improvement over the usual Caltex 98 I usually run. I'm not sure if it was E10 or not but the 100RON certainly ran a lot better.

The RON (Research Octane Number) is an indicator of the resistance of the fuel to detonation or pre-ignition. With a higher RON, you can have a higher compression ratio and/or a greater ignition advance. This increases the BMEP (Brake Mean Effective Pressure) of an engine and therefore the brake power output.

Simply using fuel with a higher RON will not give you any increase in performance unless the ECU is capable of altering the ignition advance by using the engine knock sensor, detecting detonation and taking the ignition advance to the limit. Generally, an ECU that can do this will not really be able to alter the advance by enough to get any more power.

By the way, increasing the compression ratio or ignition advance will also increase the burn temperature and this can increase NOx emissions and the increased emperature can burn exhaust valves and burn pistons.

This is why there is no advantage in using high RON fuels unnecessarily. You might get a smoother running engine but you will not get any real or measurable increase in power.

As I have mentioned, E10 burns leaner and this can cause an engine to run a little rough. The tune for an engine running E10 is different to that for ULP (low or high RON).

[tigger73]

This is why there is no advantage in using high RON fuels unnecessarily. You might get a smoother running engine but you will not get any real or measurable increase in power.


Yes that's how I'd describe it - definitely ran smoother. Not distinguishable difference on power output but just smoother delivery.

[Lemonskin]

I can't speak for my Polo as its 98 RON only but my Commodore I had previously definitely ran better on 95 and 98 than E10. It was a company car and i was told when I got it we could only fill up on E10 or regular unleaded. I did that for 2 years until someone found out we can fill up on premium too. Filled up on 95 when empty and there was an immediate difference, MUCH smoother and far punchier. Never tried 98 as I thought that would be pushing it but the Commodore loved the 95. And the fuel consumption was so much better too.

[Martin]

Personally I won't touch E10 (can't as my car is a turbo TSI)

There are plenty of E10 studies and comentaries you can read


Ethanol has a lower energy content than petrol, the 1998 Australian field trial by Apace Research observed a fuel consumption increase of up to 2.8% with E10. Because of this higher fuel consumption there are fewer kilometres per tank of fuel, so ethanol blended fuels will cost motorists more


A test conducted by Drive last year found that over more than 2000km of city and highway driving, a car powered by 98-octane (98 RON) premium unleaded cost $237.36 to run, while one using E10 cost $218.84. But the same test found that the car using E10 emitted more CO2.


Advocates of E10 claim that litre per litre, ethanol produces about 37 per cent less carbon dioxide (C02) exhaust emissions than regular unleaded. But as you need to burn more ethanol to travel the same distance, the net benefit at the tailpipe is diminished. There are also the environmental and social costs of growing and harvesting the crops to produce the ethanol.

This test (http://www.carsguide.com.au/news-and-reviews/car-reviews-road-tests/unleaded_vs_e10_the_comparison_test) in Sep 2012 produced a great summary chart
Look at premium 95 and 98 - clear winners in the litres per 100 km contest and cheaper than E10
http://www.carsguide.com.au/images/uploads/fuel-comparison-inline.jpg

[wai]

Filled up on 95 when empty and there was an immediate difference, MUCH smoother and far punchier. Never tried 98 as I thought that would be pushing it but the Commodore loved the 95. And the fuel consumption was so much better too.

That's because E10 effectively runs lean, and a lean burn is not necessarily an efficient burn.

I tried E10 in my Hiace for a few months and apart from it costing me more over that time, the engine was always slightly rough and a bit harsh at the exhaust. I switched to 95 after running the tank down to the warning light coming on, and when I started the engine and drove out, it was like it was a completely different car. It was quiet and smooth.

If you use E10, you need to re-tune the engine to take away the leaning factor. The problem is that E10 is only available in some metro markets, and if you re-tune the engine for E10, you then have to re-tune it again if/when you have to buy Standard ULP. The other problemis that our ethanol production simply cannot meet the demand for all Standard ULP to be phased out. This means we will have to import the majority of our ethanol making the reason for E10 in the first place (to help our farmers) look rather silly.

We don't want to back away because of the Green lobby, and pollies dont like flipping over this.

[ido09s]

I put E10 in my Tiguan once accidentally and noticed no change at all in fuel economy or power levels. It ran exactly the same and even got the same fuel economy.

I ran my 2007 model Civic exclusively on E10 after realising it went better on it than 95 octane. It went better, got better fuel economy and cost me less in the long run ;)