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Preen59
10-06-2009, 07:31 PM
Here's an email i got today from the Old Man through The Standard 1320 Group..

It's mainly more so to do with extreme high performance engines (No, that's not your 2.0L FSI), but definitely worth a read none the less..


This is a good thread, and there are some good answers. But I feel strongly that Joel's comment about oil may be the key - after all, a good crank and good, brand name bearings properly installed should live a good long time under most (key word, most) circumstances. The variable element here is the oil, especially under the operating environment (alcohol for fuel) that they are.

Alky (and nitro) are many, many times more corrosive than gasoline. In addition, they are both much stronger solvents, which tend to dilute the oil faster. Why does this happen? Two reasons:

1. The fuel "washes" the cylinder walls clean of the oil and reduces ring seal, so more of the fuel gets into the oil pan (also causing a slight loss of power).

2. The diluted oil/fuel mixture breaks down the oil faster which results in 'wiping', 'flaking' and other bearing problems, all of which result in premature wear and failure.

Since most racers regard oil as an afterthought, or something that they get free at the race and pour into the engine ("hey, it's just oil, right? It doesn't matter what it is....."), bearing/crank/piston failure is often attributed to the PARTS instead of the OIL. There IS a difference in oils, belive me. It's the lifeblood of your engine. Let me give you an analogy.

Go to the hospital and get a blood transfusion with a different blood type. Then go home and put an off-the-parts-house-shelf 20w50 into your highly strung alky/nitro engine. Take it racing for a weekend. Well, actually, you won't be able to - you're either dead or very, very sick in the emergency room because you have the wrong blood type. So your buddy takes the car out and runs it whilst you recover (assuming you do). Figuring it's new oil, he doesn't really check it and doesn't change it, thinking you will Tuesday night. Unfortunately, it kicks the rods during the first round of eliminations. The oil is babypuke yellow/green and ultra thin, and all the bearings (at least the ones you can find) show signs of direct metal contact with the crank.

What's the cause? Wrong fluid in the body/engine. Alky engines need an oil that can maintain a higher ring seal and resist cylinder wall 'washing' compared to gasoline - in other words, an oil that STAYS on the cylinder walls. Off the shelf 20w50 has no hope of achieving that goal. So the crankcase loads up with alky (or nitro). Because you have a good high-volume/high pressure oil pump, it really never shows signs of oil pressure loss until it's too late and boom.

What am I leading up to here? You guessed it - you need the right kind of oil. Unfortunately, due to intense and clever advertising, huge giveaway deals at bigger races and generous contingency programs, you probably aren't running the ONLY oil that has been engineered from the beginning to solve this upper cylinder wash and oil dilution problem - Torco with MPZ© (yeah, you knew this was coming!). But it's true. Most of the stuff being given away out there is not engineered for an alky or nitro engine, and some of it is just plain JUNK! I'm not going to step into the gutter and name names, that's unprofessional..... but there are a lot of racers out there that have learned the hard way about oils, and now BUY Torco instead of taking the free stuff. Many of them (especially in NASCAR, which doesn't even use alky as a fuel) are heavily sponsored by other oil brands but run Torco (with those other brands' approval - why should they care what's actually in the engine? The public doesn't know.) On the average, about 30 of the NASCAR teams out there every weekend have Torco in the crankcase, transmission and rear end. But whatever, we don't care about NASCAR.

There are a LOT of Nostalgia teams who buy Torco, many of them from me. Some of them are on this message board. They know it costs a lot up front, but they also know it saves them money in the long run. If any of them want to speak up, fine, but I"m not going to ask them too. All I know is I'm glad to help these racers and proud to know what they're running that helps them win.

Jeff, I have no idea what your clearance setup is, but I'd be willing to wager that if you'd put Torco in your crankcase after talking with someone as to the correct oil for your application, you'd get significantly longer bearing/ring/piston & crank life - and get a little more horsepower due to the increased ring seal. Based on what little I know of your application, I'd use Torco Semi-Synthetic T4R 20w50. The T4R has a small amount of an additive that does a great job of increasing the ring seal with alky & nitro, even more so that the regular TR1 straight petroleum oil. Both have Torco's exclusive MPZ© which is the 'magic' that keeps the cylinder walls from washing and causing oil dilution.

OK, off the soap box. Visit www.torcousa.com for additional information, or email me.

We now return you to your regular programing.

Hal Sanguinetti
TNT Distributing/Torco Oils

GoLfMan
11-06-2009, 12:26 PM
ignoring the blatant advertising push, thats good info... therefore I stickied it :)

cheers Preeny!

Transporter
17-06-2009, 07:33 AM
I took a look at the Penrite oils and really like HPR15 engine oil (not for every engine). It looks very robust semi synthetic oil to me. Very high HTHS, TBN, Noack Volatility (oil evaporation at high temperature) Zinc %; all these I consider as important when comparing oils. :)

gldgti
17-06-2009, 01:46 PM
HTHS, TBN

what are these?

Transporter
17-06-2009, 03:13 PM
what are these?

HTHS is high temperature high shear viscosity - higher is better
TBN measures the depletion of detergents present in engine oil for the purposes of neutralizing acidic blow-by gases.

I posted this link long time ago, but have look if you like it is very nice website.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51:lubrication-design&catid=35:content&Itemid=58

Transporter
21-06-2009, 07:32 PM
Castrol engine oil VW506.01 for PD TDI. Explaining VW engine test. Old article but very informative.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zwmy0dy2nhm/Castrol oil for VW PD Unit Injector TDi.pdf

New ILSAC GF-5 standards are coming.
This is very informative site about oil licensing and certification.
http://www.gf-5.com/process_and_indu...certification/
http://www.gf-5.com/why_gf_5/regulat...ancestandards/

Something to read about synthetic oils.
Warning! It could be extremely boring for some.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...articleid=2021

Preen59
21-06-2009, 07:55 PM
ignoring the blatant advertising push, thats good info... therefore I stickied it :)

cheers Preeny!

Yeah i forgot to mention that fact...


Thanks Transporter for adding that extra info too! :)

gregozedobe
03-11-2009, 12:59 AM
I was in at my local VW dealer booking both my Transporter and my Octavia in for "intermediate" oil changes (I do lots of short trips in one, and the other won't be used much for the next 3 months), and I had an interesting converation with the service person about frequency of oil changes.

She told me that VW now strongly recommend to owners of new VW vehicles (both diesels and petrols) to leave the original oil until it is 15,000km or 12 months old (whichever is the sooner). And that changing it sooner could lead to warranty problems, especially if related to oil consumption. Her explanation is that VWs now come with "special running in oil" that should be left in to help the engine to run in properly.

I asked for a copy of the bulletin to see exactly what VWA said, but was told "Sorry, it's for internal VW consumption only".

I'm still happy that I drove both of mine sensibly but with vigour on lots of hills in the first 1,000km to help the rings seal better in the bores, and also did an intermediate oil change, but it seems that VW don't want you to do the extra oil change before the first official oil change at 15,000km or 12 months old.

One can only assume they have good reasons for saying this, as it is reducing dealer income.

Anyone with access to the official bulletin that can add to what I was told ?

Transporter
03-11-2009, 06:46 AM
IMO, there is no special oil for running in and you can't harm the engine with a clean oil. I don't want to start something here, but the same VW is not able to reliably solve many problems on T5's like excessive valve train components wear out, steering clonk, leaking water pump and other. First it was biodiesel fever than came with complete Biodiesel ban. So ahead with everything. :duh:

And they're so sure that early oil change leads to higher oil consumption for that I would need a bit more explaining, with some hard evidence and proper tests.

I think it is just a pore excuse and higher oil consumption in some engine is caused by something else.

Preen59
03-11-2009, 06:50 PM
Gotta agree totally with you, Transporter..

If an engine doesn't bed in properly it's probably got more to do with the way it is being used than anything else.. But you being a diesel mechanic would know more than i do about that one.. I'm going off previous experience with a different type of engine.. :)

gregozedobe
11-11-2009, 10:47 PM
I was in at my dealers getting some touch-up paint and managed to corner the service manager so I asked some more pointed questions about this "special running in oil".

The story is even more murky than I thought. There is no written material at all. It seems there was a meeting of senior VW servicing bods from all over Australia some months ago, and at that meeting they discussed excessive oil consumption in VW engines, and the "solution" they agreed on was to advise owners that their engines had special running-in oil from the factory, and they shouldn't change it too early because it might stop their engines from running in properly.

I merely raised my eyebrows significantly and left it at that - make up your own minds on what is really going on.

dave perth
12-11-2009, 12:50 AM
yeah , well , it almost sound s like VW is tied up with some yanky corporation now ! LOL.

Transporter
13-11-2009, 07:52 PM
I was in at my dealers getting some touch-up paint and managed to corner the service manager so I asked some more pointed questions about this "special running in oil".

The story is even more murky than I thought. There is no written material at all. It seems there was a meeting of senior VW servicing bods from all over Australia some months ago, and at that meeting they discussed excessive oil consumption in VW engines, and the "solution" they agreed on was to advise owners that their engines had special running-in oil from the factory, and they shouldn't change it too early because it might stop their engines from running in properly.

I merely raised my eyebrows significantly and left it at that - make up your own minds on what is really going on.

I'm positive that there is no special factory oil.
Looking at my 2 UOA (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqrBI3u98haPdEVRRzcxTUFnOHFvZFV3MXV4WlJtM Xc&hl=en) I did at 2600km (factory special oil :rolleyes:) and at 14045km (SLX LL2oil).
Physical test look very similar in both oils, no real difference to me. I would say that both oils were 0W30 synthetic with the same properties.

Anyway I changed the factory oil at approximately 2700km and now at 70,000km engine is running very quiet compare to some T5’s I had a chance to see, almost 0 oil usage between 7,500 oil and filter change intervals right from the new.
Regardless, my next VW car or any car will have oil change at 1000km as I use to.

“Clean oil doesn’t wear out the engine, the dirty oil does.”

gregozedobe
16-11-2009, 12:10 PM
I'm with Transporter on this one. I guess I'll just have to organise clandestine early changes for my next new VAG vehicle (just to avoid grief from the VW service people). What they don't know can't hurt them ;)

dazag
21-11-2009, 07:47 AM
Great to see a SOAP sample on the oils there Transporter, good info! Would be good to compare say your next oil change compared to the previous one now that you've done a few more Km's and the motor has bedded in.
Also I have a new Skoda vRS 125kw CR TDI motor and it supposed to run the VW 507 00 spec oil, and there is a pretty little "skoda recommends Shell Oils" sticker under the bonnet. I've found the new Shell helix Ultra 'Extra" has the VW 507 spec on it, so just wanted to get an idea if you rate the Shell oils at all??

gregozedobe
21-11-2009, 10:20 AM
I've found the new Shell helix Ultra 'Extra" has the VW 507 spec on it, so just wanted to get an idea if you rate the Shell oils at all??

I'll probably be using that oil for both of mine when I run out of Castrol SLX Professional LL3 vw 504/507 (the Castrol oil costs too much and is too hard to get these days). Some people prefer Fuchs oils.

Transporter
22-11-2009, 06:07 PM
Shell Helix Ultra Extra is second cheapest oil after Penrite Enviro+ 5W30 which is fully imported oil (info from Penrite rep) difference between the two is probably $20 retail. Many voices from Czech republic (where there are VW and Skoda cars as common as Holdens here) are saying as long as it is approved for your engine, it doesn't matter what brand you use, some are saying stick with one brand of oil, I believe it is not that critical for the engine oil to be the same brand. I used Castrol LL2 in my T5 from the start and now I have Fuchs in it (bought it for good price from Motortraders). I started to use Fuchs since VW dealer no longer have Castrol LL2 in stock (current LL2 oil you can buy from VW dealer in Adelaide is made in Italy and doesn't mention Castrol at all).

I will do UOA in my T5 at 80,000km

Transporter
07-04-2010, 08:01 AM
Engine oil selection advice. (http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/529/motor-oil-selection)
Engine oil changes made easy. (http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/443/oil-changes)

Here is a bit of information about varnish deposit from engine oil.
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/268/oil-sludge-varnish

https://erwin.volkswagen.de/erwin/volkswagen/files/oil/step_50300_50601.pdf

https://erwin.volkswagen.de/erwin/volkswagen/files/oil/step_50400_50700.pdf

https://erwin.volkswagen.de/erwin/volkswagen/files/oil/step_50400_50700.pdf

redline3345
10-02-2011, 10:22 PM
I was in at my local VW dealer booking both my Transporter and my Octavia in for "intermediate" oil changes (I do lots of short trips in one, and the other won't be used much for the next 3 months), and I had an interesting converation with the service person about frequency of oil changes.

She told me that VW now strongly recommend to owners of new VW vehicles (both diesels and petrols) to leave the original oil until it is 15,000km or 12 months old (whichever is the sooner). And that changing it sooner could lead to warranty problems, especially if related to oil consumption. Her explanation is that VWs now come with "special running in oil" that should be left in to help the engine to run in properly.

I asked for a copy of the bulletin to see exactly what VWA said, but was told "Sorry, it's for internal VW consumption only".

I'm still happy that I drove both of mine sensibly but with vigour on lots of hills in the first 1,000km to help the rings seal better in the bores, and also did an intermediate oil change, but it seems that VW don't want you to do the extra oil change before the first official oil change at 15,000km or 12 months old.

One can only assume they have good reasons for saying this, as it is reducing dealer income.

Anyone with access to the official bulletin that can add to what I was told ?

GregozedobeV late reply to this post, but info is always good no-matter. It’s an interesting point you’ve raised, especially in the light of my new 2.0TSI Octy being given a complimentary service at 1,500 (that’s ONE thousand, five hundred k’s), where the oil and oil filter were changed. The dealer said they offer the service to make sure all’s going ok with the car, and they are also a VW dealer, so I presume they do this 1500 oil change for the VW’s as well. Either they didn’t read the alleged bulletin, or maybe there isn’t one...........

Dartiguan
27-04-2011, 08:23 PM
M 2011 Tiguan TDI had its 1500km service and there was no oil change, my car is now a month old. I was informed all they do is walk through a checklist to ensure everything is going OK and to come back at 15,000km. I must admit I would feel more easy with a change of oil in between.

Transporter
02-05-2011, 10:41 AM
You can always have it done by the independent VW shop. Also you can demand the oil change if it was 12 months from the production date.

Transporter
06-05-2011, 07:20 PM
Best to be voided and stick with the one type of oil, if you can.
Mixing Synthetics With Other Oils (http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28441/synthetic-oil-mixing)

http://advantage-environment.com/transporter/continuous-engine-oil-cleaning-2/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrN5jV1pbUs

5pot
30-03-2012, 11:03 AM
So, possibly a dumb question, but what if I used 505.00 or 507.00 in a PD TDI ('05 2.0 TDI Golf) when the user manual says to use 505.1 or 507.1?

Are they the same even though the VW approved stuff you can buy from supercheap, etc doesn't have the ".1" or ".01" after 505/507?

Transporter
30-03-2012, 11:17 AM
You can't use VW505.00 in your 05MK TDI. You can use VW507.00 and I don't think that there is VW507.01, at least wasn't the last time I checked. Other than that when there is a number mentioned I always follow it to the last digit. Asuming that it is only different by 1 and I could use it because it's close enough, would be really dumb. :)

...and also made to, meets or exceeds VW specs, doesn't mean approved. To me it means that the oil is not approved by VW and you using it at your own peril.

Diesel_vert
30-03-2012, 02:30 PM
So, possibly a dumb question, but what if I used 505.00 or 507.00 in a PD TDI ('05 2.0 TDI Golf) when the user manual says to use 505.1 or 507.1?

Are they the same even though the VW approved stuff you can buy from supercheap, etc doesn't have the ".1" or ".01" after 505/507?

There is no such thing as '505.1' or '507.1'. That is either a misprint in the manual or a misquote of the manual.


505.00
For diesel engines without unit-injector (i.e. pumpe düse; PD) or common-rail (CR) systems.

505.01
Must be used for PD or CR diesel engines without a diesel particulate filter (DPF).
May also be used in place of 505.00.

507.00
Must be used for PD or CR diesel engines with a DPF; supersedes all previous diesel standards.


In summary, for your particular vehicle, you may use 505.01 or 507.00 oils. In regards to availability, you may find it easier to use 507.00 oils as 505.01 has been superseded.

5pot
02-04-2012, 09:31 AM
OK cool. I got the 507 stuff but was wondering about the .1 suffix and it significance.

greymad
02-05-2012, 05:37 PM
My first (15,000k) service on the T5 132kw camper was an interesting experience, thanks to $olitaire...
I realise they have to make a profit, but the 8 litres of Castrol EP LL 5W30 cost me a cool $180 - $22.50/litre(!). The oil filter $36.53. Windscreen additive $5.41. A "screw" (that's as exact as I was given) $4.24. Add to those the Environmental waste levy ($7.50) and "VW W/S consumables" (rags?) and I can see how they're managing to maintain their profit margin.
Grand total was $449.50
I welcome comments and as well any suggestions as to how some of these rip-offs (as I see them) can be cut down or even done away with.
For a start, next time I'm going to make sure the washer bottle is full, and put a sticker on it saying do not touch!

Addendum: take a look at this for comparison ... http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/320771524722 ... and yes, I do realise it's in Germany, but it indicates we're being ripped off over here.

Diesel_vert
02-05-2012, 11:06 PM
My first (15,000k) service on the T5 132kw camper was an interesting experience, thanks to $olitaire...
I realise they have to make a profit, but the 8 litres of Castrol EP LL 5W30 cost me a cool $180 (!). The oil filter $36.53. Windscreen additive $5.41. A "screw" (that's as exact as I was given) $4.24. Add to those the Environmental waste levy ($7.50) and "VW W/S consumables" (rags?) and I can see how they're managing to maintain their profit margin.
Grand total was $449.50
I welcome comments and as well any suggestions as to how some of these rip-offs (as I see them) can be cut down or even done away with.

You can use any oil that is on VW's approval list for 504/507. It's quite a long list, but I've noted which oils I believe are distributed in Australia, here. (http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/forums/f112/why-you-need-use-504-507-oils-fsi-tsi-tdi-engines-47140.html)

greymad
12-05-2012, 05:08 PM
I've been in touch with Castrol Australia & they tell me that Castrol Edge Professional Long Life III 5W-30 is available from
Truckline
J Blackwood
Totaol Trade Supplies (sic)
Autopro
Autobarn
Repco
Mitre 10

In quantities of ...
1L, 5L, 20L and 208L

My next step will be to see if Solitaire will allow me to provide my own 20 litre drum (which I can get at trade price) at the next service.
It wouldn't surprise me if they come up with a limp "reason" for it not being acceptable.:metallicblue:

greymad
14-05-2012, 09:28 PM
I've been in touch with Castrol Australia & they tell me that Castrol Edge Professional Long Life III 5W-30 is available from
Truckline
J Blackwood
Totaol Trade Supplies (sic)
Autopro
Autobarn
Repco
Mitre 10

In quantities of ...
1L, 5L, 20L and 208L

My next step will be to see if Solitaire will allow me to provide my own 20 litre drum (which I can get at trade price) at the next service.
It wouldn't surprise me if they come up with a limp "reason" for it not being acceptable.:metallicblue:
UPDATE.
Called by Duttons in Murray Bridge today on the way up to the River: they are quite prepared to have me bring along my own 20 litre drum of Castrol EP LL III 5W-30.