2.5TDI + bi-vnt-turbo [Archive] - VWWatercooled Australia

shadowmaker

24-03-2009, 09:35 AM

Sorry this a copy-paste of my build from another forum. Maybe this might interest some even down under...

The build up has started. Recepy:

-Evo3 head. It will be taken as far as it needs. Currently using Evo2 with bigger valves etc.

-New intake manifold.

-Performance cam. This will be something new and maybe it will need multiple takes to get it right.

-Twin turbo setup: I'm going to stick with the current one (gt23v-AMG) and add another vnt, gt37v to it. Luckily I have a big trunk... Things will be electronically controlled. This is the hardest part. I hope I get it right. For you that haven't ever seen a gt37v, this one is HUGE. Even HX50 is small compared to it.

-Additional A/W cooler.

-Fueling mods to get power up to 6000rpm, but I think I'll eventually need an additional pump to keep that bigger turbo happy. That's not going to happen with this build as this is too tricky as it is.

-New rods, lighter/modified pistons, knife edge crank.

-Lightweight SMF + twin carbon disc clutch. This is going to be the worst part for driveability.

-New gearbox with some exotic stuff in it: longer 1st, LSD from WRC Focus, dog engagement.

-330mm brakes in front + 8 pot calibers.

-Original rear discs + 4 pot calibers.

-Anti-lag system.

-Weight shaving up to 200kg, but that big turbo isn't going to make it easy (as it weights about 40kg).

-New angel-eye lights with custom look in the nose section. 6xHID.

I think I have almost every part ready, but it's not going to be a walk in the park...

Van:
http://i5.tinypic.com/455m13p.jpg

Old engine compartment with 350hp, 700Nm:
http://i16.tinypic.com/2laep0n.jpg

In action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkSTslJf7Z4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDUgkusl6Uk

---------

Tearing it apart.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/030120092535pieni-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/030120092537pieni-1.jpg

New Isotta chairs.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/040120092540pieni-1.jpg

THE turbo.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/030220081066pieni-1.jpg

shadowmaker

24-03-2009, 09:36 AM

Intake will be looking something like this (left one). Long runners are going to be taken from D24 Volvo (6syl).
http://www.amworks.com/pictures2/EVOWRC4.jpg

Here's some pics of the home made collector.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/160120092612-1.jpg

Small end.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/160120092615-1.jpg

Also decided to make a girdle to beef up the bottom end.

------

Here's my new dual disc clutch. I'm a little afraid how it is going to behave...
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/02022009232pieni-1.jpg

Here's a donor for my dual plenum intake. Runners are 50cm long.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/03022009242pieni-1.jpg

------

We have a long winter here and nothing to do.

Some progres.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/08022009284pieni-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/08022009286pieni-1.jpg

I think the old one served for some four years IRC.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/08022009287pieni-1.jpg

------

Now things are cooking. Exhaust is ready and intake is nearly ready.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/

It's time to take of the head and see what can be done to it.

Gearbox is long way from finished, but it seems that it can be done with the diff lock I have. Sadly it will require a lot of machining and special (=expensive) parts.

Custom made injectors are on their way and pump is under some serious construction.

shadowmaker

24-03-2009, 09:38 AM

Manifolds were test fitted today for clearances. Both seemed ok.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/24022009413pieni-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/24022009415pieni-1.jpg

It's time for sauna and refresments...

------

Some ongoing electrical work.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/23032009080pieni-1.jpg

Next one I don't recommend to anyone as lightening crankshaft is plain madness...:duh:

Original:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/21032009079pieni-1.jpg

Under construction:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/03/23032009082pieni-1.jpg

PLEASE DON'T DO THIS AT HOME!:biggrin:

Greg Roles

24-03-2009, 02:35 PM

Freakin awesome. I SO get what you're up to, and why.

Quite the sleeper!

shadowmaker

24-03-2009, 07:43 PM

Freakin awesome. I SO get what you're up to, and why.

Quite the sleeper!

Well, my goal is to get road usable 450bhp out of it and with some weight reduction + traction upgrading maybe low 13´is doable on 1/4 mile. So it's not going to be THAT fast, but maybe will give a nice suprise to someone...

Greg Roles

24-03-2009, 09:17 PM

One of the funnest cars I've ever driven was my Brothers modified Ford transit van with a Commodore (opel ) VN V6 in it ( the jap motor i think ).
That van weighed stuff all stripped out, and it was an absolute monster, burnouts everywhere, and it could drag anything the late 80's produced. Many a fun time had till it ripped the diff out of itself.

THAT sure surprised people!

Go the shadow hell bus!

gldgti

24-03-2009, 10:10 PM

wow man, this is a serious build.

i'm impressed with your intake plenum design - like the idea of the large plenum to feed the runners and the feed plenum for the larger one to try to distribute the inlet air into the main plenum chamber evenly - and i guess a good idea for the street - given the amount of pressure you'll be putting on the internals, you want it all to be balanced nicely across the cylinders for engine longevity.... nice work.

that GT37 is HUGE. pointless remark i know, but mate, thats just plain BIG. i guess this kind of build could only really happen with a van, 'cos i reckon a turbo that big in a golf would just have to go somewhere inside the cabin - get lost passengers!

i watch with baited breath :-)

Mischa

24-03-2009, 10:22 PM

holy beegesus batman! now this isnt a thread you see everyday. cant wait to see how it turns out :)

jayjay

24-03-2009, 11:53 PM

you have some quality fabrication skills! good luck with the project. you're not in AUS are you?

shadowmaker

25-03-2009, 04:41 AM

holy beegesus batman! now this isnt a thread you see everyday. cant wait to see how it turns out :)

BIG BANG?:jackinthebox:

jayjay: I'm from Finland, so lot's of spare time during the long winter...

jayjay

25-03-2009, 12:03 PM

you nordic fellows! hahaha. it seems that every mind blowing ridiculous project comes from a back yard garage out of finland or norway!

:D

GoLfMan

25-03-2009, 12:19 PM

this project is just awesome :D

I also cant wait to see how it turns out!!!!

shadowmaker

11-05-2009, 03:44 AM

Making the EvoIII head is taking time at the moment and I'm not sure that my van will be ready this summer at all, so I have decided to speed up some of my other projects: A Volvo S60 2.5T AWD AT -04 and Suzuki RG500 Gamma -86.

With Volvo there's just a matter to make gt40v (yes, a vnt:clap:) to fit under the bonnet. Goal is +500 streetable hp. Turbo needs to be located over the GB as it is volley ball size. Darton sleeves are also in progress, but almost everything else is already done (head with bigger valves, fuel system, IC, beefed up AT and turbine...)

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/05/23042006501nettipieni-1.jpg

Suzuki had some professional care and has ~150bhp with 142kg. It only needs few things and a good assembly.

Here's my pride and joy before I decided to tweak it some more :duh:.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/05/ser6ah-1.jpg

Hopefully I get to test both these before our short summer is over...

We already know that vnts work with gas engines as my friend has been using gt17v with his previous ATV engines with succes. Here's my friends latest ATV with Aprilia V-2 1000cc and gt22v. Goal 240bhp.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/05/05052009369pieni-1.jpg

Dual plenum intake is under construction. You can see it above IC, on the table.

And the other side.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/05/05052009370pieni-1.jpg

gldgti

11-05-2009, 06:25 PM

Goal 240bhp.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/05/05052009369pieni-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/05/05052009370pieni-1.jpg

widow maker right there.

shadowmaker

12-12-2009, 08:32 AM

It has been a while. I had my back surgered and got a baby girl, my third child. Now everything seems to be back to normal and I can focus on my projects.

Some ongoing aluminum work.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/12/261120091507-1.jpg

Here's my new dual airbox setup from Fiat Ducato under construction. Two 3" airducts will feed those from a roof scoop and boxes will be fitted into the trunk divider wall. This way I can use big paper filters instead of free-flow crap and have enough flow for far more than needed.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/12/081220091572-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/12/081220091571-1.jpg

It's not going to look this spacy after I'm done. I'm going to need my trunk with second turbo, all the plumbing, heat shields, wastegates, WAIC, scavenge pumps...

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/12/111220091599-1.jpg

shadowmaker

12-12-2009, 08:37 AM

My friend's ATV got dynoed first time yesterday. At 0,6bar, 220bhp it started to slip clutch...

VNT seems to work and with mild setting it made 0,2bar @6000rpm in neutral. A lot is still to be made, but ice track racing is around the corner...

Here's a vid before dyno session. The owner says its too quiet now with the turbo on.
http://s50.photobucket.com/albums/f3...009011-001.flv

shadowmaker

15-12-2009, 08:10 AM

Here's a dyno from my friend's ATV with 7psi which is the way they left it because slipping clutch. VNT stop screw is also in mild setting for now.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/12/1412200916241-1.jpg

Here's a vid from the dynorun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rrpn1SZmM4

My new WAIC between the stages. It will be big enough as LP boost will only be 1,6-1,8bar max. Sadly it's heavy.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/12/141220091625-1.jpg

Suspension parts for sandblasting and painting. New urethane bushings and adjustable coilovers to follow. I already have big 8 pot, 330mm front brakes and Brembo calipers for rear.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/12/141220091627-1.jpg

GoLfMan

15-12-2009, 08:24 AM

awesome updates!!! keep them coming! :eek:

shadowmaker

18-12-2009, 04:49 AM

DIY-drilled 300mm vented rotors from VW T5 + 4 pot Brembo calipers from Seat Cupra. Should be more than enough for the rear. Got also Wilwood hydraulic handbrake and Wilwood brake balance regulator.

Test fitting.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/12/171220091637-1.jpg

Some colour matching will be needed to go with D2 330mm front set.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2009/12/010220081057-1.jpg

I got also a promise from AVO to make me a custom coilover set (3-way adjustable). I'll just need to get them some measurements before they can start.

Transmission gets only dog engagement (and LSD if I can find suitable) and original gear ratios as we are not sure how much it will take. No point making expensive gears to a weak box. Maybe after testing it out first.

gldgti

18-12-2009, 05:01 PM

shadowmaker

19-12-2009, 03:58 AM

wow, this is definately the most serious van build i've ever seen, apart from old air coolers ;-)

can you give me any maths on how you worked out the shape and area of the slot between the plenums on your intake manifold, and also the reducing cross section of the primary plenum? i have been attempting to make a 2 plenum manifold for my mk3 TD but i havnt found any real engineering data, just pictures.

You'd be suprised if you knew more about my old air coolers... There are things that can't be seen on these pictures... On purpose...:ninja:

You just decide what size your charge pipes are going to be (= Xmm) and make a conical primary plenum from Xmm -> almost 0mm. Mine is 76mm -> ~20mm. Calculate slot area to be less than charge pipe area. Keep in mind that slot is crusial for the flow... Also you need to think where you want the air after it has entered in your second plenum...

With high speed even air seems to have mass. This is the whole point of dual plenum intake. It won't make you more horsepower (at least that not its primary function), but it can keep your AFR identical in every cylinder so it is more of a safety feature when you really want to push the limits.

It's time for sauna and refresments... Outside temperature is -25 degrees of Celsius (-13F)...

shadowmaker

01-01-2010, 11:18 PM

Got suspension parts from sandblasting/painting.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/311220091726-2.jpg

Polyurethane bushings are on their way.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/311220091724-2.jpg

Some colour matching for Brembos to suit D2 calipers. Used semi-matt clear coat to match hard anodised finish on those D2s. Silver/white texts and these are ready to go.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/221220091661-2.jpg

Year 2009 has come to its end. Happy New Year 2010 to everyone!!!

Greg Roles

02-01-2010, 10:47 AM

gldgti

02-01-2010, 10:57 AM

You'd be suprised if you knew more about my old air coolers... There are things that can't be seen on these pictures... On purpose...:ninja:

You just decide what size your charge pipes are going to be (= Xmm) and make a conical primary plenum from Xmm -> almost 0mm. Mine is 76mm -> ~20mm. Calculate slot area to be less than charge pipe area. Keep in mind that slot is crusial for the flow... Also you need to think where you want the air after it has entered in your second plenum...

With high speed even air seems to have mass. This is the whole point of dual plenum intake. It won't make you more horsepower (at least that not its primary function), but it can keep your AFR identical in every cylinder so it is more of a safety feature when you really want to push the limits.

It's time for sauna and refresments... Outside temperature is -25 degrees of Celsius (-13F)...

thanks for that - in fact this is basically what i had done with the primary plenum - however i belive the area of the slot that i used was far too large - i calculated it to be equivalent to a 4" circle, where my charge piping and conical inlet was 2" diameter.... theres the problem i see now :-D many, many thanks, now i can get back to fabricating after work! i suspect a new intake with longer runners and decent plenum will go nicely with the new turbo on my AAZ.

shadowmaker

03-01-2010, 12:44 AM

Love what you're up to. That plenum custom fabrication is just amazing. I like the science behind the work, and applaud your mad efforts to make a crazy VW bus.

I'd love to pick your brains about just how big a true low restriction post turbo exhaust needs to be on a diesel. Seems that the old rule of as big as possible to minimise restriction, but given a diesels volumetric efficiency and overall gas flows, I'm getting a feeling even my 2.0 TDI is going to need a 3" plus system. If you look at the last post on my tinkering thread in the diesel section, theoretically I'm calculating some huge exhaust flows, and I'm starting to think I need to go huge to get those last few hp ( which is what it's all about baby! )

Interested in what you and your mad mates think about what is really necessary.

2,5" is good for 200-250bhp
3" 250-300bhp
3,5" 300-400bhp
4" 400-500bhp
5" 500+bhp

This is a rough estimate what is used here with diesel engines, but I see no harm going bigger except weight. DP is crucial as there gasses are at their hottest and it should be bigger than exhaust (first 1-1,5m). Just keep transitions smooth use large radius bends if possible. Muffler(s) should be kept at the very end of the pipe as restriction is at its lowest there (cooler gasses). One free flow muffler with "muffler style" end tip is all you need with turbo engine to make it almost soundless. Actually you can get away with no muffler at all, just don't use side pipe etc, or have too big tip size. Muffler style end tip takes the most annoying sound away, so I have always used it in my builds.

And please, don't use 100% methanol in your W/M spray. That's a bad idea...
If you want more fuel, just use bigger nozzles to be safe. 15-20% methanol mix with water is safe. Anything more than 30% and you are really pushing it with a high CR engine...

shadowmaker

03-01-2010, 01:03 AM

thanks for that - in fact this is basically what i had done with the primary plenum - however i belive the area of the slot that i used was far too large - i calculated it to be equivalent to a 4" circle, where my charge piping and conical inlet was 2" diameter.... theres the problem i see now :-D many, many thanks, now i can get back to fabricating after work! i suspect a new intake with longer runners and decent plenum will go nicely with the new turbo on my AAZ.

You should also make the slot a bit wider at the beginning as you need to force air to those two-three first cylinders. You can also use coanda-effect to feed the first cylinders.

6thgear

04-01-2010, 09:16 PM

very very very very envious of your truck! subscribed and looking forward to learning of further progress! keep it up!

shadowmaker

08-01-2010, 04:35 AM

very very very very envious of your truck! subscribed and looking forward to learning of further progress! keep it up!

No need to be jealous as this van is killing me both mentally and economically...:banana:

Polyurethane bushings.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/070120101763-2.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/070120101766-1.jpg

Hmm... There seems to be a big hole in the back of the van...

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/060120101756-2.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/060120101757-2.jpg

gldgti

09-01-2010, 08:58 PM

You should also make the slot a bit wider at the beginning as you need to force air to those two-three first cylinders. You can also use coanda-effect to feed the first cylinders.

and now i see the reason for the nice flat plate curving away from the charge inlet on your primary at the union of the charge pipe inlet and the secondary plenum. wonderful!

shadowmaker

13-01-2010, 04:31 AM

My fake 4 pot D2. Located at the opposite ends of the van will fool eye even more + my camera is distorting colours somewhat. I bet their are going to be just fine.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/120120101804-1.jpg

More poly bushings.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/090120101768-1.jpg

It is beautiful outside as there's frost everywhere and only -4C. Sadly I'm too educated and need to work inside...

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/21122005122-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/100120101781-1.jpg

shadowmaker

21-01-2010, 06:04 AM

Here's my fake D2 rear brakes. They are bigger and much stronger than original front set.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/01/190120101870-2.jpg

shadowmaker

13-02-2010, 07:02 PM

Fitting new angel eye headlights from long nose. I think it will look mean after I'm done...

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/02/120220102023-2.jpg

Of course it would be much easier to make it a long nose as I already have all the parts for it. It's just that nothing is ment to be easy with this build...

This way I can also shave some 30kg out of my heavy van.

shadowmaker

17-02-2010, 02:17 AM

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/02/150220102033-2.jpg

Here's the original look.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/02/16122007844-2.jpg

I'm trying to make the hood out of CF eventually, but really don't know how it's going to work out. We'll see.

GoLfMan

17-02-2010, 07:03 AM

keep up the good work :D

shadowmaker

21-02-2010, 06:10 AM

keep up the good work :D

I'll try my best. I just hope it gets finished before I go bankrupt...:banana:

Here's the rear ARB finally in place (shiny metallic piece on the lower arm is the end of ARB and on left upper corner you can see ARB's attacment to the body).
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/02/200220102055-2.jpg

Front brake kit. 330/32mm with 8 pistons.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2010/02/200220102058-2.jpg