Getting Exhaust done (and turbo discussions)

[polo_spec_d]

So I have finally made time to do my exhaust and doing it this saturday, What I'm doing is flanging the rear muffler then making up a replacement pipe so I can switch back and fo with the two styles.

Anyone done anything like this before on the diesels? Its going to be interesting to see what the muffler weight is aswell.

Cheers,

Matty

[Greg Roles]

Larry one of the GT TDI guys on here removed his rear pancake muff, and reckoned it made no noise difference, but then we do have the ultra restrictive DPF to keep things quiet.

You simply can't have a free enough exhaust for a diesel, and apart from a resonator, I reckon you'd be right with little else.

Remember a diesel flows a LOT more air than a petrol, so you really can't make it too big. Same with the inlet....:)

[polo_spec_d]

yeah was thinking of keeping the new pipe the same size as the rest of it.

Thanks Greg

[MattyT]

Can u get more free flowing DPF's?

Surely if audi can have em on an R10 TDI they can be around somewhere.

I want to see some 3" turbo-back madness going on Matty :biggrin:

[MattyT]

Actually, according to http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=17587 - you have no DPF matty. Let the 3" madness begin!!

[GoLfMan]

Polo TDI's dont have a DPF.

Im going to go a 3" turboback on my Polo when i get the $$$ :)

[Greg Roles]

I'd reckon that'd be a great size for the polo. The Golf has a 2.5 mandrel, which I thought was fine, till I read my Yankie book, and now I'm thinking 3.5 / 4 inch!

Oh and as the exhaust runs cooler on a diesel, mild steel is just fine according to the Yanks!

[GoLfMan]

Oh and as the exhaust runs cooler on a diesel, mild steel is just fine according to the Yanks!

wasnt going to do anything different! stainless is a waste in Aussie conditions anyway

3" turbo back mandrel bent, high flow cat no muffler!!!! i recon that just might be the go :D

[Greg Roles]

Resonator, drone may be a killer in cabin. To save attracting any attention, and to be a bit polite, I plan to keep the stock tips at the back ( going nowhere ) and a big tip down onto the road just before them. I want the sleeper look, and well frankly, know enough coppers...

[polo_spec_d]

wasnt going to do anything different! stainless is a waste in Aussie conditions anyway

3" turbo back mandrel bent, high flow cat no muffler!!!! i recon that just might be the go :D

Keep us posted on this as i will be doing the same in june/july, getting oettinger done in two weeks so hopefully the Pogo is pushing 140Bhp by then :biggrin:

[GoLfMan]

Resonator, drone may be a killer in cabin. To save attracting any attention, and to be a bit polite, I plan to keep the stock tips at the back ( going nowhere ) and a big tip down onto the road just before them. I want the sleeper look, and well frankly, know enough coppers...

the Polo Tips are hidden, and I plan for the big tip to be juuuussstttt visable ;)

as for a resenator, ill put on in definately, just as long as it doesnt quieten down that diesel ROAR!

[GoLfMan]

Keep us posted on this as i will be doing the same in june/july, getting oettinger done in two weeks so hopefully the Pogo is pushing 140Bhp by then :biggrin:

you'll be doing it before me then matey! Plus your car will be faster, will have to tell me how the Oettinger chip goes, I've just got a piggy back fuel map and it goes plenty harder than stock!

DONT DO VISIBLE TIPS! please for the love of god! Just looks out of place on the TDI rear bumper to have chrome tips pointing out of it!

[Vicbitter]

in kw's that is...

[geoff_gti]

about 100.

can't wait for this :D

[Vicbitter]

100kw.
What was it b4?

[geoff_gti]

75odd i think, i'm sure one of the pogo boys will correct me if i'm wrong! :)

[GoLfMan]

75odd i think, i'm sure one of the pogo boys will correct me if i'm wrong! :)

yup! about 75kws

Oettinger takes it to about 103kws and 300 (something) Nm

my chips about 96kw's and 300nm's all from just fuel... I love it! :D

130hp is 103kws i think.... 140hp is about 110kws i thinks, someone check a converter!

but 110kw's should be easily achievable with the flash, exhaust, FMIC :)

[Greg Roles]

You need to remember the HP / KW wins bar racing and dyno contests, and makes for a fast car for sure, but it's NM that makes a car FUN to drive. Diesels usually don't get a lot more HP, but a wack of NM and that's what counts. I had to adjust my thinking too.

Golfie if you check the polo intercooler thread, Jon and I are going to do some tinkering on his Polo sidemount intercooler, and anything we find will apply to the TDI version even more so.:biggrin:

[polo_spec_d]

yeah about 315Nm which sould make it quite fun :) oh i wont be going any chrome tips, Gunna have it hidden :) Ill be reading more of you thread about the sidemount aswell cogdoc :)

Yeah right on the money there Golfman for the conversion.

[Vicbitter]

Any ideas for a type of muffler for this ass end?

[GoLfMan]

Any ideas for a type of muffler for this ass end?

chop it right out!

dont run a muffler at all, just a resenator will do you just fine :)

[gldgti]

OP - most of what has been mentioned so far in this thread has already beend discussed at length in other threads in the diesels section - look deeper into this section and you'll find a couple of "build threads" and some other threads on diesel exhausts.

[Vicbitter]

oops sorry, bit lazy on my part:)

[Greg Roles]

It's a jeep thing...:biggrin:

[gldgti]

oops sorry, bit lazy on my part:)

no worries - just saves you some time in the end - its easier to find old threads than wait for good responses ;-)

[Vicbitter]

It's a jeep thing...:biggrin:

hahahaha:)

[Buller_Scott]

to josh, and polo_spec_d, and anyone else in the know- how many nm are the clutches in our polo tdi's rated to?

i simply ask because on the club, basic stage 1 mods seem to be (in one package, before uprating turbo to gt17XX):

-nozzles
-remap
-clutch

and uprated smic or other oem fmic come with bigger turbo, another remap, etc etc.

how long you guys give our clutches at 315-325nm?

and in terms of remaps, apparently the KP39 in the golf 4 diesel is slightly smaller than the vnt15's in ours- but one guy on the club had a rocketchip stage one tune done, and was told not to play ALL the time, as he was near the limits of how much boost the turbo could take- would oettinger do the same to the vnt 15 as a similar tune to a slightly smaller turbo? or are we fine?

thoughts guys!!!

cheers....
scott
p.s. please correct me here if im wrong, as i also read somewhere that the polo tdi has a KKK turbo and not a garrett...

[peedman]

I thought all the VNT turbos were garrett??

[Buller_Scott]

so did i, but i also saw a list stating that the 100ps 1.9 pd engine in the >2005 polo was a KKK turbo.

i really should take these websites' urls down... :???:

EDIT: here: http://www.volkswagen-turbochargers.co.uk/Volkswagen_Polo_Turbochargers.html

[polo_spec_d]

Well im going to 320Nm next week and a new clutch will be on the cards not long after that due to the amount of kms I rack up.

I have read that our clutches are good for 420nm!!!! But im abit suss about that so if someone has a back up figure to that?

I would think we should be fine with the remap, is the PD130 running a larger turbo or same one as PD100?

Sorry Scott to answer your question with another question. :duh:

[Buller_Scott]

Well im going to 320Nm next week and a new clutch will be on the cards not long after that due to the amount of kms I rack up.

I have read that our clutches are good for 420nm!!!! But im abit suss about that so if someone has a back up figure to that?

I would think we should be fine with the remap, is the PD130 running a larger turbo or same one as PD100?

Sorry Scott to answer your question with another question. :duh:

lol its all good. i do that ALL the time.

as far as im aware, the pd100 (our ones) has a garrett gt1525 (i think) and the pd130's in the tdi sportline in south africa, as far as i have read, are the garrett gt1749va. but ive read alot of people in ZA complaining that these turbos like to blow, and they recommend the gt1749vb (same as in golf 2.0 tdi, im pretty sure) as a good, reliable upgrade.

420nm- if that's the case, then that's sweet- looks like our stock cars really SHOULD be able to handle a modest stage one retune, and then some (exhaust, ic upgrades etc).

I'd be interested to see how our stock turbos hold out/ how many clicks they hold out for, with different tunes.

are you guys planning on waiting until your turbo blows to upgrade? or pre-emptively changing turbos before that happens?

[polo_spec_d]

Ill change turbo's when the car reaches 100,000Kms, Ive done 45,000kms so yeah not long.

What Nm are you looking at getting too? I wanna get the little one to around 550Nm:biggrin:

[GoLfMan]

Well im going to 320Nm next week and a new clutch will be on the cards not long after that due to the amount of kms I rack up.

I have read that our clutches are good for 420nm!!!! But im abit suss about that so if someone has a back up figure to that?

I would think we should be fine with the remap, is the PD130 running a larger turbo or same one as PD100?

Sorry Scott to answer your question with another question. :duh:

bro your clutch will be fine, i've been running 300nm on the stock clutch for thousands of kms without a hitch, spend the extra dough on a FMIC ;)
looking forward to meeting you all!!!

[GoLfMan]

lol its all good. i do that ALL the time.

as far as im aware, the pd100 (our ones) has a garrett gt1525 (i think) and the pd130's in the tdi sportline in south africa, as far as i have read, are the garrett gt1749va. but ive read alot of people in ZA complaining that these turbos like to blow, and they recommend the gt1749vb (same as in golf 2.0 tdi, im pretty sure) as a good, reliable upgrade.

420nm- if that's the case, then that's sweet- looks like our stock cars really SHOULD be able to handle a modest stage one retune, and then some (exhaust, ic upgrades etc).

I'd be interested to see how our stock turbos hold out/ how many clicks they hold out for, with different tunes.

are you guys planning on waiting until your turbo blows to upgrade? or pre-emptively changing turbos before that happens?

im going to wait until my turbo poops itself before I get an upgrade.... I was seriously considering the VNT17b or an even bigger one depending on how nuts I want to go....

I'd really like to have 500+nm ;)

[Buller_Scott]

Ill change turbo's when the car reaches 100,000Kms, Ive done 45,000kms so yeah not long.

What Nm are you looking at getting too? I wanna get the little one to around 550Nm:biggrin:

interesting..... i've read about guys' turbos (vnt15 from the pd90 golf mk iv's) blowing at 120k miles etc, and them replacing them then.

I too was thinking that 100,000km's would be a nice round number to replace the current turbo- sure it might be abit early by some peoples standards, but apparently with out pd engines when a turbo blows there's the potential that it will take the engine with it (can someone verify specifics as to why pls?).

i've recently adjusted my thinking into being more concerned with nm rather than kw, and on that front, i think i'd be happy with 320 for the mean time, but once i get to 100,000kms, im thinking of one of two things:

1. upgrading to a vnt17, but with a mild tune (basically, slightly more power as result of bigger turbo, but not pushing the turbo too much). i was thinking a mild tune as straightline power is nice, but i dont like wheelspin and i dont want too much torque steer as i prefer going around bends fast to straighline. also, being a tightass, i was hoping that this would also translate to turbo longevity. the only problem with this is, i think that turbos have to run at to-the-limit boost every now and then, so that everything gets sealed properly?

2. most likely: 315nm under a chippeduk tune, with things like dp and eventually sprayer for smic, will probably produce a few more nm. that, and suspension should see a fun little package. thus, im thinking another vnt15, run it in all over again, and keep it for another 100,000kms.

to anyone who reads this: i readily admit that im unlearned in these things. i still have to research whether or not running a new VNT turbo conservatively (below its true capabilities, boost wise) will be more damaging to the turbo than good. either that, or it doesnt actually matter? not sure. any info would be well recieved.

cheers, scott

[Buller_Scott]

im going to wait until my turbo poops itself before I get an upgrade.... I was seriously considering the VNT17b or an even bigger one depending on how nuts I want to go....

I'd really like to have 500+nm ;)

you two are really just aiming to become street-bully sleepers, arent you? :biggrin:

as delicious as it would be to be able to say that your tiny pog has half the torque of the tdv10 audi r8, im gonna have to call first pansy- i think i'd be more than content with a torque ceiling of around 330-350nm (and eventually, a gorgeous suspension setup).

supposing it were the case that both the vnt15 and vnt17b would safely last 100,000km's before i pre-emptively replace, and supposing that the kilometer longevity of [vnt15 on stage 1 tune] was in the same neighborhood as [vnt17b with very mild tune], then i'd be inclined to stick with replacing my turbo every 100,000km's with vnt 15's, simply because that's what i'll be doing anyway, and the lesser cost of the vnt15.

so yeah, 330-350nm, with a second retune to accomodate turbo back exhaust and permament intercooler spray system down the track(for days when its sunny and there is no traffic on the way up to buller), should be achievable for me, fingers crossed.

obviously this will increase if i read enough literature that suggests that running a 17b on a gentle tune will do:

a) yield greater numbers
b) allow for atleast 150% of the daily driveable kilometers of a vnt15 on stage 1 tune
c) still be able to run gentle boost without compromising the running in process of the turbo, such that above longevity can be achieved
d) NOT require a fmic (nothing against, i just want to do things a little differently-i'd actually like to hook up an intercooler sprayer system with a larger [5L] capacity for "spirited" driving, just to be quirky, and different).

but then, that would be having my cake and eating it too......

[Greg Roles]

All turbo's "wear" out, but normally the bearing tolerances go, and the car starts consuming more and more oil. you see this in the smokey old skylines etc getting around the place. What will kill a turbo, is making it work too much in the surge zone, and HEAT. Anything you can do to keep the thermal load on the engine, especially the turbo, as low as possible, from cold air inlet, intercooler upgrades, water injection, anything, will help keep it alive.

Too aggressive a tune and the EGT's get too high, and it's at this point the turbo is likely to go kapow. I've measured a bit over 800 deg C in my stock TDI and that's about 100 deg over the "safe" ceiling Gale Banks and the various tuners in my diesel book recommend as a safe upper limit.

I'd be hesitant to go too far beyond that to be honest!!

If metal particles from the turbo manage to get through the intercooler and enter the very, very high compression diesel, and say hold open a valve, well it's going to be a big repair bill. There's just no room in the combustion chamber for anything at all, and the tolerances, especially to valves is tiny as it compresses so much.

[shadowmaker]

I'd be hesitant to go too far beyond that to be honest!!


Some six years ago my friend did 252bhp on dyno with his gt1749vb. EGT was +1000 deg C and max power was restricted to 220bhp to reduce max EGT to 930 deg C. He used that car for four years before selling it over. No problems at all. This was a street car and he never raced it as he got his racing kicks from top fuel monsters.

[gregozedobe]

but apparently with out pd engines when a turbo blows there's the potential that it will take the engine with it (can someone verify specifics as to why pls?).

If a turbo's bearings get too worn this can lead to turbo oil seal failure (or seals can just fail with good bearings). When the oil seals fail they allow lots of engine oil to get into the intake. This oil burns quite well in a diesel, so well in fact that the engine can just rev itself to death just on its own oil.

Unless you can block off the air going into the engine (or have a really good clutch and can stall the engine in a high gear using the brakes) there is no way to stop the engine. There is no ignition to turn off, no way to restrict the fuel supply (the engine oil), the turbo keeps pumping more air and oil in, so the engine just keeps on revving harder and harder, using up its own oil so lubrication is compromised, until it destroys itself. This situation is often referred to as a diesel engine run-away.


also, being a tightass, i was hoping that this would also translate to turbo longevity. the only problem with this is, i think that turbos have to run at to-the-limit boost every now and then, so that everything gets sealed properly?

to anyone who reads this: i readily admit that im unlearned in these things. i still have to research whether or not running a new VNT turbo conservatively (below its true capabilities, boost wise) will be more damaging to the turbo than good. either that, or it doesnt actually matter? not sure. any info would be well recieved.

Because the VNT turbos have moveable vanes to vary the amount of turbo boost, there is the possibility of them getting clogged with carbon from the exhaust. This is often referred to as sticking or seized vanes. This seems to happen more often with TDIs that are always driven very gently and at fairly low revs, with the result that the vanes get stuck in the angle that maximises boost at low revs. If the engine is then revved above 2,000rpm these stuck vanes can't move to reduce boost at the higher revs, so too much boost is produced. The ECU recognises this situation as dangerous for the engine so it reduces fuel to protect itself - this is often called "limp mode" or "limp home mode". This will be reset next time you switch the engine off, but the ECU usually records an overboost error code.

If a TDI engine with a VNT turbo is regularly given full accelerator pedal from about 1,600 through to 2,500 (say in 2nd or 3rd gear) this usually moves the variable vanes enough to stop them from getting stuck in the high boost position, thus keeping them moving freely.

I have a vague idea it is possible to put too large a turbo onto a TDI and this can lead to turbo surge - which is a bad thing. IIRC there was a thread on this forum discussing this not too long ago, a search will probably find it.

I believe there is quite some science involved in selecting the correct size turbo for any given TDI application (but I am ignorant of the specifics). It is probably worth investigating what other people have done and how successful they were.

[GoLfMan]

If a TDI engine with a VNT turbo is regularly given full accelerator pedal from about 1,600 through to 2,500 (say in 2nd or 3rd gear) this usually moves the variable vanes enough to stop them from getting stuck in the high boost position, thus keeping them moving freely.

well in that case my TDI's turbo has NO CHANCE of the vanes getting stuck :nana:

[gregozedobe]

well in that case my TDI's turbo has NO CHANCE of the vanes getting stuck :nana:

Nor mine :biggrin: (and my RS's turbo wouldn't either, not that it has a VNT).

[Buller_Scott]

cogdoc, thanks for the detailed reply. thats awesome.

i was aware of the VNT needed a good kick in the pants from time to time to prevent the vanes sticking, and i also read (on this site) that a good way to run in a new car was, once warm, to drive spiritedly out of it- which i do on the weekends (weekdays when the car was new, 2-3 buller trips a week).

thanks for the info regarding the runaway situation on a tdi engine. now i finally know what the term entails.

i think my replacement will be another vnt15.

Cheers!

[Greg Roles]

Scotty, I'm planning on pushing my stock turbo, yet I am not worried about it. Perhaps I'll have to rebuild it early ( you replace "bearings" and the shaft ) and at that point, which I expect to be well over 100k, more like towards 200k, I'll probably look around as to upgrades from the vnt range, preferably with real ball bearings. Garrett indeed have an immense range. Rebuilding a turbo is straight forward really. Few moving parts!

[GoLfMan]

Scotty, I'm planning on pushing my stock turbo, yet I am not worried about it. Perhaps I'll have to rebuild it early ( you replace "bearings" and the shaft ) and at that point, which I expect to be well over 100k, more like towards 200k, I'll probably look around as to upgrades from the vnt range, preferably with real ball bearings. Garrett indeed have an immense range. Rebuilding a turbo is straight forward really. Few moving parts!

cant you say VNT22 and 200+hp 500+nm :D:D:D

[Greg Roles]

...and more lag. I'd prefer to fill the lag, than create more for an even narrower rev range mate! Any upsize would be modest for me, but afterall I am doing all my work to handle extra thermal load, however that ends up happening..:biggrin: Matching turbo's is as much black art as trial and error, and I see a lot of potential with the stock baby just quietly...

[shadowmaker]

Gt2260v gives about 1,5bar already @2000rpm and spools around 1400rpm in a 1.9TDI. A good turbo for 2,0bar and ~250bhp in a 8 valve setup.

According to Garrett studies ball bearings have more drag after 120krpm so not ideal for vnt. For better spool up why not.

[Buller_Scott]

i think i'd be keen to just keep going with the vnt15 (i think they're like 1300aud) as opposed to anything larger- i dont like the idea of TOO much lag, and i have no specific HP figures that im aiming for.

god knows i really dont like the idea of too much wheelspin on a daily. i think vnt15+remap+smart spray systerm+turbo back will be enough for me to have fun without driving becoming tedious or dangerous on icy roads after a day up on the hill(me=tired).

additional funds are gonna be redirected towards suspension & additional sets of wheels.

a big turbo sounds good, but i kinda like the idea of using a vnt15 to capacity (once ive got above mods) and it being fun, rather than having a 17 and having wheelspin at part throttle on wet/ icy roads.

but josh, i will be glad to watch your endeavors with a big turbo, if thats what you're going to be doing :driver:

[Greg Roles]

You'd be very happy with that Scotty. Same old turbo tricks, even more necessary in a diesel. Air in, exhaust out, keep it cool, up the boost.

When you go beyond injectors, and start swapping turbo's I feel you enter the danger zone. Fine if you have a backup car, not so good if it's your daily like me.
Perhaps one day I'll go to the dark side like you Shadow, and become seduced by the evil ways of the boost.

I know I'll be happy with what's possible out of the vnt I have for now.

[Buller_Scott]

You'd be very happy with that Scotty. Same old turbo tricks, even more necessary in a diesel. Air in, exhaust out, keep it cool, up the boost.

When you go beyond injectors, and start swapping turbo's I feel you enter the danger zone. Fine if you have a backup car, not so good if it's your daily like me.
Perhaps one day I'll go to the dark side like you Shadow, and become seduced by the evil ways of the boost.

I know I'll be happy with what's possible out of the vnt I have for now.

cheers for the info man, its hugely appreciated.

i definately dont want to compromise any aspect of the car being a reliable daily, and a daily that keeps going and going and going, at that (with regular maintenance etc etc).

ive only ever driven petrol before, and im addicted to diesel torque, so the icing on the cake will be the few modest mods i've listed above.

cog, are you chipped?

[Greg Roles]

Nope, it's the last thing I'll be doing, but it'll happen.

[GoLfMan]

Gt2260v gives about 1,5bar already @2000rpm and spools around 1400rpm in a 1.9TDI. A good turbo for 2,0bar and ~250bhp in a 8 valve setup.

According to Garrett studies ball bearings have more drag after 120krpm so not ideal for vnt. For better spool up why not.

Those are the kind of numbers I want Shadowmaker!

Can you please tell me what other mods will be needed to get 250hp out of the 8v TDI?

[Greg Roles]

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/05/116_0504_04_zNOS_top_shotnitrous_ki-1.jpg

[Buller_Scott]

Those are the kind of numbers I want Shadowmaker!

Can you please tell me what other mods will be needed to get 250hp out of the 8v TDI?

apparently these axr engines are pretty tough (i think i read that on the club).

wouldnt it just be a matter of stuff like this:

-turbo back exhaust
-front mount intercooler
-bigger turbo
-pd injectors from kerma ($400usd for one!!!!!)
-bigger intake manifold (like from pd150 aka gt tdi golf)
-bigger airbox with maf from a more powerful car, i think?

dunno exactly how many hp that would yield, but i think perhaps thats some of the stuff you'd be getting involved in, maybe?