Just wondering...

[Mrk_Mickey]

Hey guys,

Ages back I installed almost 2k worth of system into my car. It still goes great but I find recently I've been lacking a certain depth of sound due to me listening to my sony stereo in my room so much, which has perfect sound levels :D

I don't quite know if it's this, but I think I'm lacking mids. At the moment I have four kicker KS splits amped up to a jaycar 4x100 RMS Full-Range Digital Amplifier, and a 12" kicker L7 sub amped to a jaycar 1x1000w RMS @2-ohm Class-D Linkable Monoblock Amplifier. The sound is really crisp and clear, however if I turn the sub down/off all I've got is high's. It's crap!

I think it leads down to amp tuning...these are my current settings:

4-channel (channels 1+2 and 3+4 are tuned identically)
gain: 55%
Hi-Pass Filter selected (LPF/FULL/HPF)
crossover: 40% (between 50Hz and 500Hz)
Bass: 12 dB (0dB-18dB)

Monoblock:
gain: 70%
subsonic: 15% (between 10Hz and 60Hz)
LPF: 20% (between 35Hz and 300Hz)
Bass Boost: 35% (0dB-18dB)
Phase: 20% (0-180.....?)

I'll provide pics if these figures are too brand-specific to mean anything to the guru's lol..

Basically I'm looking for more depth from my speakers, because they literally sound like headphones.

[HOLEIN1]

just having a quick glance it looks like the HP is set too high on your amp driving the speakers. depending on the individuall brand type of speaker, generally soeaking the HP should be set in between 60 and 120 Htz, although as i said this is a generalisation and could move either way from this... lowering this crossover point will give you more midbass, however you will have to play around with the gain so that they dont start bottoming out... from the information you have given you HP is approximatley around 180htz, so as you probably can realise lowering this will open up the midbass a bit more...

as long as you are still running the standard crossover you wont damage your tweeters by setting it too low (this is always a danger when running components fully active), however i would advise that you start off with low volumes as the midbass will start distorting and potentially damage them if you go in 'too hard too fast'... trial and error is the key...

also what type of HU/processor are you running? if you are running something basic you may well find that upgrading this will give you a much better sound due to the more detailed tuning features... let us know what you have...

cheers, dan :)

[Mrk_Mickey]

Cheers dude, thought it might be that.

uhhh....Processor? Wtf? lol. Headunit....it's a basic kenwood thingo...however I don't see why it should be replaced if my more important tuning is from the driver (the amp)..I know what you're saying about the tuning capabilities of higher end stuff but doesn't it run through the amp's main tune anyway, thus the amp is the overriding/more powerful tune? Sorry if that's all whacked out and hard to understand :D

[glidn]

something else you should know is any car audio system is only as good as it's weakest link.

IE, you might find your Kenwood radio could only be producing around 2V output for the RCA outputs.

Now going to something like an Alpine CDA-9887, will net you 4V pre outs. Which will be a HUGE jump, and if you can find a high end model of an Eclipse head unit, you could see figures of around 8V pre out.

These little things make a huge difference to the way the system sounds.

Something else is that the Alpine CDA9887 also has a 24Bit Burr brown DAC (Digital Audio Converter) inbuilt, so if you use the CD player or IPOD it will convert it with the 24Bit DAC and again improve the sound tremendously.

Hope this helps.

I would also recommend playing your HP cross over down to around 70-100Hz
and see if that makes a difference.

On the sub also pull that down to 80-100Hz, unless you can pull it down to more of the likes of 60-70Hz.

But I do know the factory door locations in the 5dr mk3's are not the best by far. You can pull the speaker out and use silicon and seal the enclosure the speaker sits in. then use some heavier weight Dacron and fill it behind the speaker. Thus making the speaker sound like it's in a bigger enclosure and should give a substantial increase in the mid range.

I hope this all makes sense, if not let me know or PM me and I’ll be happy to help.

[Spec83]

Agreed with the above post... Your mids crossover is way to high (from what you have said about 180Hz) which will give you a complete lack of midbass..

I would try the following -

* Have the LPF for your sub set at about ~90Hz;
* Have the HPF for you splits set at about ~100Hz;

(the cutoff octaves (assumed 12db) will ensure that the mids and lows blend)

* Dacron fill your sub box to decrease resonance and give more of a warm feel to the sound,
* DON'T dacron fill doors as the fibre will hold water and thats bad;
* Sound deaden you doors using dynamat or similar as at these crossover points they will start to vibrate;
* Could deaden you hatch with dynamat too just to make sure... vibration is wasted sound energy;

There is also a trick to tuining your amp gains too... Turn the HU up to 80% volume with both gains turned all the way down, then turn the gains up untill distortion begins, then back off 1/8th of a turn...

If you think you need a new Head Umnit PM me as I have an Alpine sitting in the cupboard that I will let go for cheap :)

Good Luck :)

[glidn]

Spec83 - in this case yes you can indeed do dacron for front speakers.

Its a sealed door card, with a speaker mount onto pocket bolted on top of door card.

Mrk_Mickey - if you would like more info on what i mentioned, i'll take some photo's as i go along. As i've currently got myself a white 5dr vr6, so i'll be doing a show and tell (lol) on the build.

Unless i get some fancy new components that do not fit in factory pocket in which case i'll end up building something again.

[Mrk_Mickey]

Thanks guys, some great info there and much appreciated! When I have some spare time to muck around with the sound I'll see how the advice turns out, and Spec83 I'll get back to you on that alpine headunit offer :)

Cheers

P.S: Thanks for the info on all the DIY speaker improvement, but I probably won't go to this extent as I'm almost happy with the sound as it is :). It definitely gets loud enough! I'd love to see your build and tell though :D

[Spec83]

Tuining your gains and filters will do wonders... Try that for a start.

As for dacron, I have seen some bad thing when put in doors plus with a mid-bass it won't have much of an effect... Spend the extra time/$$$ and Deaden the doors and you will see a marked improvement

[glidn]

Spec83 - normally i would fully agree with your statement in regards to the dacron fill in the doors. However the MK3 front midbass do not (I
REPEAT DO NOT) vent into the doors at all, which means the midbass have approx 1-2 litres of volume. therefore using the
dacron method you can fool the speaker into thinking it's in approx 3-4 litres of volume, therefore making them play lower and giving
"the warmer" feel to the sound.

[Spec83]

Ahh I see... I stand corrected :)

Must admit, I have never seen a car door without a penetration for a speaker (unless a speaker isn't meant to be there in the first place)... You learn something everyday!!!

[Mrk_Mickey]

Yeah the mk3 doors are a crap design IMO..I don't understand why those silly Germans didn't put the speakers into a solid part of the door card.

I'm gonna have a fiddle around with the settings tonight :) I'll let you know how I go.

[HOLEIN1]

Cheers dude, thought it might be that.

uhhh....Processor? Wtf? lol. Headunit....it's a basic kenwood thingo...however I don't see why it should be replaced if my more important tuning is from the driver

although yes you amp does have some tuning capabilities, they are somewhat basic and arguably dont give much control over the sound at all...

by upgrading to something a little more advanced, you will be gaining important features such as time alignment, more detailed HP/LP crossovers which allow you to control things such as slope etc, preouts with a higher voltage, and a parametric equaliser to fine tune the sound a little bit more...

like others have mentioned, although a more pricey HU may seem like a unneccessary expense, you wont be able to get the sound that youre after...

if your dead sent on keeoing your HU, mabe try getting the HP/LP points correct, and then investing in a seperate graphic equaliser which you run between your HU and the amps - have seen them around formums for sale second hand as well as places such as cash converters etc etc

hope that helps, :)

[glidn]

Yeah the mk3 doors are a crap design IMO..I don't understand why those silly Germans didn't put the speakers into a solid part of the door card.

I'm gonna have a fiddle around with the settings tonight :) I'll let you know how I go.


Well funny you should say this, the Jetta/Vento, does a great job on being an SQ car. Funny i know.

However this not the point i wanted to make.

Blaupunkt use to make an factory stereo upgrade for mk3's, i have seen it in only 4 Golf GTI's in past 6 years.

The do a ported enclosure which is approx 2 the length of the standard box size but like i said includes a ported enclosure. These front sound pretty damn nice if i do so myself.

However you will only find them in wreckers and that is IF you can find them.

But yeah the headunit will fill your voids, you will not only noticed alot better definition in sound and stereo, you will find your bass to be louder, lower and clearer.

hope this all helps.

[Mrk_Mickey]

Cheers guys, all this does help, but the REAL help is money...which I don't have/won't use on a HU atm hehe.

[Spec83]

Check your PM's :)

[Mrk_Mickey]

Check your PM's :)

CLEAR yours! :)

[Mrk_Mickey]

OOPS!!

Wow....an interesting problem. My crossover level was NOT 40% as I thought it was....it was 100% :eek:

So anyways....wound it RIGHT down to about 100 Hz and now it sounds perfect hahaha. Cheers peeps

[95vr6]

OOPS!!

Wow....an interesting problem. My crossover level was NOT 40% as I thought it was....it was 100% :eek:

So anyways....wound it RIGHT down to about 100 Hz and now it sounds perfect hahaha. Cheers peeps

Set the HP at 60hz & LP at 80hz

[Mrk_Mickey]

I don't have that adjustability. it's either 50Hz or 500Hz or anything in between. I've set it to about 100Hz and I'm very happy with that :)

[glidn]

yeah hundred is generally a good place to be,

however, that is also the most noticeable range for human ear.

I.E. if you drop it to 80ish HP and then the sub lowpass to 80ish, you will find more sound comes from the front and you cannot really tell where the sub is.
but some subs are an exception to the rule where they can easily play 100hz without dragging the sound stage to the rear.

Glad that we could all help.
H

[Mrk_Mickey]

So you reckon despite what I think my ears might like when I'm tuning with it blasted, I should just set it to 80 Hz for sub and speakers and be done with it?

I'm not 100% sure what my sub filter is at now but it's over 100Hz I think and I thought any lower sounded a bit too non-apparent. I'm a little concerned about my gain being like 80% too, cos the amp is meant to be a beast (1000w RMS @2-Ohms) and my sub is 750w RMS @2-Ohms


Oh and by the way, I do like the idea of a levelled sound, but I have to admit I'm addicted to the sound of the sub at the rear....it sounds like the bass drum complete with pedal and crazy musician's foot is right behind me and I love it! hahah. (that's not to say I can't change :nana:)

[glidn]

So you reckon despite what I think my ears might like when I'm tuning with it blasted, I should just set it to 80 Hz for sub and speakers and be done with it?

I'm not 100% sure what my sub filter is at now but it's over 100Hz I think and I thought any lower sounded a bit too non-apparent. I'm a little concerned about my gain being like 80% too, cos the amp is meant to be a beast (1000w RMS @2-Ohms) and my sub is 750w RMS @2-Ohms


Oh and by the way, I do like the idea of a levelled sound, but I have to admit I'm addicted to the sound of the sub at the rear....it sounds like the bass drum complete with pedal and crazy musician's foot is right behind me and I love it! hahah. (that's not to say I can't change :nana:)

if setup correctly, it will feel and sound the same.

The difference however is that you will not be able to tell where the sub bass is coming from. It will generally make it sound like it's coming from the front.

[Spec83]

As above... In a good sq setup, you want the sub to sound like it's right up front with the rest of the sound stage...

[Gigitt]

Generally you should start off with your Normal speaker AMP set so the Filter = FULL.
This wil then give you the baseline for what you could be hearing from your speakers.

Then you can tune your speakers by turning Filters to HPF etc to then fine tune the freq charateristics that your speakers can deliver from their position, mounting and enclosure size.

Note: You may not find much difference from setiing the AMP Filter from FULL to HPF when you have a Split system with crossovers. The crossovers are doing the job already passing the correct frequencies to your speakers, and so by playing with HPF you will be turning off frequencies you might want to be hearing... eg you might want to turn off some low mids sound so your speakers dont distort or your car doors don't buzz - but that is really a job for deadener etc.