Supercharger Asleep?

[Fanaki]

hi guys,

i have a GT TSI and it seems as though my supercharger is sleeping.

i've had a bit of a search through the forum to see if i'm the only one with this problem and i came across a thread about getting the ECU remapped but i just wanted to confirm if my superchargers symptoms are the same as other TSI'ers.

the car is only 2wks old now and although i have been enjoying it immensly however i have been a lil disappointed with the "up & go" factor of my car. basically, from standstill, if i launch the car and rev it out to about 5k rpm in 1st gear i don't notice any supercharger boost kicking in. the boost gauge is completely flat zero, i shift to second (because i drive a manual hehe) and the boost gauge then has a bit of a flutter.

yesterday as i was driving along, i took off from the traffic lights and whooosh! the car took off like a bolt! the boost gauge max'd out and i was left weeing my pants with excitement :biggrin:

i'm wondering if i'm the only one experiencing intermitten supercharger boost? i will be taking the car into the stealer sometime this week but wanted to get a feel for how others are finding their TSI's.

thanks,
Francis

[BarneyBoy]

Hi Fanaki and welcome!

What you're describing is NOT normal. You should have boost straight off idle, all the time. And you shouldn't even feel any drop off as the turbo cuts in. It should be one seamless stream of boost. If yours seems slow until about 2500 - 3000 rpm, I'd say for sure that your 'charger is off.

I had a software fault throw mine into limp-home mode the first day I drove mine home, so I know what it feels like to have turbo only boost. It's not fun at all.

The 'wee in your pants' feeling should happen all the time, not just intermittently. :driver: Take it to your stealer ASAP. Ensure that 24M3 Service Campaign was done on your car during pre-delivery (it should have). See: http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59534&highlight=TSI+recall for more details on 24M3.

Post what happens - nobody likes to see an unhappy TSI driver :biggrin:

[Greg Roles]

Yeah I've read of other cars doing this, and on seeing the dealer it got sorted.
I'm have a feeling the dealers will know of the problem, even if they are reluctant to say it to you personally.

[Fanaki]

Thanks for the info and the welcome guys.

i'll def be going to the stealer. i thought up until yesterday that that's how the car was but when the charger kick'd in and the car took off i was then certain that there wasn't something right.

i'll be letting you all know the outcome in coming days.

Francis

[gareth_oau]

The 'wee in your pants' feeling should happen all the time, not just intermittently.

and in the meantime, get yrself some good nappies, you don't want to stain those seats!!j:

[Fanaki]

it's all good... got the leather seats :biggrin:

[BarneyBoy]

it's all good... got the leather seats :biggrin:

Good lord - why did you get the sunroof then? :eek:

Back on topic, however - I wonder why the stealer didn't pick up this fault when test driving it during pre-delivery? It sounds like you've had this issue since day 1?

[tinto]

Is it a constant issue?
Mine was intermittent pain.
Would go something like: nothing/nothing/nothing/TURBO

After the update Barney mentioned it hasn't missed a beat.

[Fanaki]

Back on topic, however - I wonder why the stealer didn't pick up this fault when test driving it during pre-delivery? It sounds like you've had this issue since day 1?

yeah it has been since day one. i didn't even realise until yesterday:duh:


Is it a constant issue?
Mine was intermittent pain.
Would go something like: nothing/nothing/nothing/TURBO

After the update Barney mentioned it hasn't missed a beat.

yep. it's been absolutely no supercharger in 1st gear and then yesterday BOOM! :driver: the supercharger works in mid range take off so it seems a bit strange that it doesn't kickin on take off??

but i'm glad that you have had a positive result with the update Tinto. hopefully that's all it is...

[Fanaki]

i went to the stealer just before lunch ( got lost in the process :duh: ) but long story short, i haven't been pushing the right hand pedal down hard enough :brutal:

the service tech was nice enough to listen to my stupid ramblings and we went for a drive and low and behold BOOOOST. we went back to the garage and he checked the system to see if my broom had the 24m3 (i think that was it) upgrade applied and it was thumbs up because i drive an MY09.

well needless to say i left the stealer feeling like goose... got the lil one on the road and instead of pedalling it to 2500-3000rpm, booted it off the mark and BOOOOOST :duh:

thanks for all your help guys. let's wait and see what i come up with next.


Francis

[tinto]

user error! ;)
glad to hear it has all been sorted.

[benough]

So you have to engage the supercharger with accelerator? Like click it on with the accelerator to the floor?

Sounds like a messerschmidt! :biggrin:

[BarneyBoy]

So you have to engage the supercharger with accelerator? Like click it on with the accelerator to the floor?

The supercharger should be operating with anything EXCEPT the lightest throttle - you shouldn't have to nail it. 1/4 or 1/5 throttle should deliver boost off idle.

And the revs shouldn't matter - I rarely see >3000 rpm 'round town, but I can assure you the blower is working! Jeez Fanaki, you must be VERY light with your right foot!

tinto: "user error!" LOL!
"I've found your problem - it's between the seat and the steering wheel..."!

[Fanaki]

i'm not particularly light on the right foot. if anything quite the opposite. :driver:

but if i don't completely flatten the boot the charger doesn't kick in. i'll do a few test runs and see exactly under what circumstances it does/ doesn't kick in.

the tech that took the car for a spin was nailing it and kept saying, seems fine to me... i didn't think i had to drive it like i was on a drag strip everytime to get the charger working???

from memory if i plant the foot fast off the mark the charger chimes in (ie the first inch of travel on the pedal) but if i ease the first inch and punch it the rest of the way the charger stays off?

seriously, am i doing something wrong? :duh:

[Greg Roles]

Well the TSI I took for two extended test drives had that grunty all over feeling all the time, regardless of accelerator as Barney has alluded to. There was no obvious lag like in a typical turbo car. To me it felt like my Mum's Accord Euro, a bigger 2.4 L engine.

I think there is definately something still wrong, there is no point in VW releasing a twin charge car that feels like a single charge ( typical turbo ). The WHOLE point of the supercharger is to fill the turbo lag gap.

[BarneyBoy]

Well the TSI I took for two extended test drives had that grunty all over feeling all the time, regardless of accelerator as Barney has alluded to. There was no obvious lag like in a typical turbo car. To me it felt like my Mum's Accord Euro, a bigger 2.4 L engine.

I think there is definately something still wrong, there is no point in VW releasing a twin charge car that feels like a single charge ( typical turbo ). The WHOLE point of the supercharger is to fill the turbo lag gap.

Couldn't agree more, cog.

I suggest a couple of things:
1) See if you can test drive another TSI at your stealer, or at another dealer. Or
2) Ask one of the Melbourne guys with one to let you drive theirs (if you were in Adelaide I'd let you drive mine).

Seriously, the s/c should work almost ALL the time, not just on 'kickdown'. The GT should be like driving a GTI - but with more bottom end and less top end.

[Fanaki]

2) Ask one of the Melbourne guys with one to let you drive theirs (if you were in Adelaide I'd let you drive mine).


very much appreciate the offer Barney, if it had been a few months back i would have taken you up on it (as i was travelling to Adelaide weekly) ;-)

i'm gonna have to go to a stealer and see if there is a TSI about that i can drive. being that the car is under warranty, i can take it to any vw service centre right?


a question for you guys regarding the boost gauge, should it show movement when cruising? or only under load? i generally only see it "blip" if i'm not nailing the car...

thanks again

[BarneyBoy]

For the 1st year, my boost gauge would move if I even LOOKED at it! It'd slam up against the stop every time I touched the accelerator.

But after the 1st one year service and the 24M3 Service Campaign, the boost gauge is much less responsive, and more realistic in its movement.

The needle on mine won't move when I'm cruising. But under load (uphill incline) or acceleration, and the needle climbs. The TSI is designed for the s/c to do exactly that - this is for fuel economy purposes. The s/c is programmed to electronically engage its clutch when under low load and during the s/c turbo 'handover' (2500-3500).

That's why I asked if you had a light foot - I find you have to drive like in a fuel economy competition to NOT have the s/c engage (if you crack your window down in a tunnel, side street &c you'll hear the s/c whine from idle to about 3000 rpm - a fave time for me!).

Regarding the dealer, yes you can use any dealer in the VW network.
Yes, I'd get a 2nd opinion! Good luck! :driver: :biggrin:

[Paul_OH]

I don't believe mine has the 24M3 update however will be taking it in early next year to get an exhaust/heatshield rattle looked at and will check the status of software. I haven't had any problems with Supercharger engaging though, ever.
The boost gauge is very sensitive and is operating under normal acceleration unless you go very light footed even then only in peak hour type/traffic crawling conditions. I also find it very easy to modulate the boost using the right foot (ie if I don't want full boost I can very easily adjust the amount of boost by accelerator pedal pressure). Also yes, slow/slight/even acceleration will actuate the supercharger as and when it needs to, definitely not by cracking the throttle hard only.
I agree that there is something not quite right with yours and you should test drive another at the dealer and possibly hook up with someone else on the forum who can show you theirs with some real world experience instead of brushing you off.

Paul

[Fanaki]

thanks Paul.

if i get a chance, i'll swing by a dealer on the way home and ask them to have a look. i can't believe it's taken me 3 wks and 2000km to work out that something isn't right! :duh:

i will keep you all posted.

thanks,
Francis

[Greg Roles]

...... (if you crack your window down in a tunnel, side street &c you'll hear the s/c whine from idle to about 3000 rpm - a fave time for me!).



Mate, you realise the supercharger has acoustic shielding all over it? (According to what I found on Erwin anyhow.)
If I owned a TSI, THAT would be coming off.

[Paul_OH]

Mate, you realise the supercharger has acoustic shielding all over it? (According to what I found on Erwin anyhow.)
If I owned a TSI, THAT would be coming off.

Please, tell me more! I haven't had my car on a hoist but it's very difficult to even see the S/C let alone access it between the block and the firewall and under the inlet piping!

[BarneyBoy]

Mate, you realise the supercharger has acoustic shielding all over it? (According to what I found on Erwin anyhow.)
If I owned a TSI, THAT would be coming off.

Yeah, cog - don't you torture Paul & me!!!!:cry:
I'd LOVE it to be just a touch louder. :biggrin:
Already I can get a crowd of pedestrians to snap their heads around on a brisk takeoff - they can't work out how come that sound is coming from a Golf!

[gareth_oau]

hmmm, not entirely relavant, but gotta love this whistle!!:biggrin:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=FBkX8GS5FoY

around 3:05 sounds great, and 3:18 even better!

[bazzle]

Supercharger or Turbo charger on that model Golf??

as in Engine or Exhaust driven?

Bazzle :driver:

[tinto]

Supercharger or Turbo charger on that model Golf??
as in Engine or Exhaust driven?
Remove 'OR' from your post, and you have your answer :)

Both forms of induction involved run on their normal means (eg SC on engine, Turbo on exhaust).

There's a clutch on the SC to disengage at higher RPM (when it's all turbo), so no parasitic power loss.

[Greg Roles]

I had wondered WHY no-one had done this, sure access looks tight, but it would be first on my TSI to-do list!

I just figured you TSI guys were soft.:nana:

It appears there is foam insulation either side of the blower itself, inside a hard plastic housing. Also, on the inlet and outlet there is additional sound insulation, reducing induction noise.

What I'd do:

1. Look at ditching the sound proofing on inlet and outlet of blower as indicated in picture. This may give you guys the extra you are after. The "box" on the inlet looks to be full of foam!

2. remove insulation and possibly plastic cover as well around blower. Shield from engine block, and exhaust heat. This looks like a major task, as it's between the block and the firewall above the exhaust. Still, if it was me, I'd flippin get in there! The foam will keep the heat in the blower too, and with a twin charge, heat is your enemy much more so than a one charged car. You guys are upping the heat twice!

3. Get a cattledog, sawn-off, a knee brace and call yourself "max".

Enjoy!

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/12/DSCF1996-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/12/DSCF1990-1.jpg

[Greg Roles]

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/12/DSCF1991-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/12/DSCF1992-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/12/DSCF1993-1.jpg

[Greg Roles]

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/12/DSCF1997-1.jpg

[GTom]

if you crack your window down in a tunnel, side street &c you'll hear the s/c whine from idle to about 3000 rpm - a fave time for me!.


My favorite as well! Just going up to different levels in a carpark seems to turn alot of heads...

Seems tempting cogdoc.... very tempting....

[Paul_OH]

Just had another look tonight with a torch, to me it seems an engine out mod unless you can get underneath using a pit or hoist. Unless of course only my engine bay shrank in the wash! :duh: :)

[BarneyBoy]

Just had another look tonight with a torch, to me it seems an engine out mod unless you can get underneath using a pit or hoist. Unless of course only my engine bay shrank in the wash! :duh: :)

I had a peek too :duh:

I think they START with the supercharger, and build the car 'round that...:eek:

[Paul_OH]

I think they START with the supercharger, and build the car 'round that...:eek:

Ha ha, yes Luke, you must use the force to find the nucleus http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/12/dsidgif-1.jpg

[Greg Roles]

C'mon guys, what's stopping you attacking from the top and removing the sound deadening foam around the inlet and outlet pipe?

Manicure?

Geezuz, I'd be in there in a flash!

[tdi guy]

The supercharger should be operating with anything EXCEPT the lightest throttle - you shouldn't have to nail it. 1/4 or 1/5 throttle should deliver boost off idle.



FWIW, mine is the same... the boost dial shows 'boost' with even 1 cm throttle pedal movement. Hope it still does so after the 15k service in the New Year...

Also, I tried the 'nail throttle for 10 seconds while engine off but key in accessories position' (thanks, Funny:-)). It does appear to have reset the performance for the first 10-15km: throttle seems even more responsive, even more instant 'boost' response (presumably while it re-learns my driving style).

[Fanaki]

TSI guy what does FWIW mean?

and thanks for the tip on the reset. i'll give it ago tonight and see if that makes any difference...

guys why have your cars been performing differently after the 15k service ie boost response differential?

[warhead]

TSI guy what does FWIW mean?

and thanks for the tip on the reset. i'll give it ago tonight and see if that makes any difference...

guys why have your cars been performing differently after the 15k service ie boost response differential?

FWIW = for what its worth

If the TSI has received the recall notice then they have to take them in to get the 24M3 update. The dealers were installing the updates during the service.

I don't think it actually affects the performance, but just the visual feedback on the boost gauge. The gauge behaves completely different (from super sensitive to showing something only when you go a little hard on the car)

[BarneyBoy]

I don't think it actually affects the performance, but just the visual feedback on the boost gauge. The gauge behaves completely different (from super sensitive to showing something only when you go a little hard on the car)

X2

The boost gauge initially looked like it was on Crack. If the needle didn't have a stop, it'd spin like a fan... :biggrin:

[tinto]

I had wondered WHY no-one had done this, sure access looks tight, but it would be first on my TSI to-do list!

I just figured you TSI guys were soft.:nana:

Noooo, we're just refined and sophisticated you noisy, oily, torquey swine :biggrin:
:dancer:

^ This emoticon bears little relevance to post.

[Fanaki]

guys got the car with the stealer today.

fingers crossed prob gets sorted...

i tried the nail the throttle to the floor whilst the car off (in acc position) and that didn't do anything different to the way the s/c working but i thought i'd try anyway...

just as a matter of course, what kind of economy are you guys getting from your TSIs? i'm currently getting about 560-580km out of a tank and the car has over 2500km on it. driving has been about 1500km of start stop and about 1000km open road.

Thanks,
Francis

[tdi guy]

just as a matter of course, what kind of economy are you guys getting from your TSIs? i'm currently getting about 560-580km out of a tank and the car has over 2500km on it. driving has been about 1500km of start stop and about 1000km open road.

Thanks,
Francis

Nearly 13000km to date, and averaging 7.7l/100km:
- about 6l/100km to and from the city in light traffic (70k round trip - main roads);
- up to 10l/100km in stop/start/crawl peak hour;
- over 10l/100km if accelerate wildly up to speed limits (just testing, officer...).

Best on a tank (Sydney suburbs - no country driving) was 655km. Computer said tank had 0 km left for about 20km (sometimes can be difficult to get both 98RON fuel and Motopass acceptance...). If it had the full 55l fuel load, and could access all of it, then the car should have gone about 710km before spluttering... didn't want to find out, though.

TG

[GTom]

My best has been around 7.9L/100 .... i normally get about 8.5-9.2L (if i had less of a heavy foot can prob get consistent 7.9 or less) this is all city driving. Fill up the tank once it reaches 1/4 Full and i get around 450km on that (so around 600km)....

bit off topic, TSI Guy were you around the hills homemaker centre yesterday morning?

[Fanaki]

well i got my car back from the stealer yesterday and apparently it hadn't had the 24M3 upgrade so they did the upgrade and the car does seem to be delivering more boost. still no noticeable change in the behaviour of the boost gauge but hey if the gf can notice a difference in the way the car drives that can only be good.

thanks to everyone who put in there 2 cents. much appreciated, Francis

[GTom]

well i got my car back from the stealer yesterday and apparently it hadn't had the 24M3 upgrade so they did the upgrade and the car does seem to be delivering more boost. still no noticeable change in the behaviour of the boost gauge but hey if the gf can notice a difference in the way the car drives that can only be good.

thanks to everyone who put in there 2 cents. much appreciated, Francis

That's good to hear... You definantly don't have to plant your foot to get the supercharger going (I recently tried to drive not to engage the S/C, found it extremely difficult)

IIRC with the 24M3 update some people noticed that the boost gauge was not as responsive as it was before the update.

[Paul_OH]

Meant to reply earlier, had 7500km service in December and asked about the 24M3 update. Vehicle was purchased in June 2008 and manufactured in April 2008 and was told it didn't apply. Called back later in the day (just to doublecheck), asked someone else and was again told it didn't apply after giving the VIN. Boost gauge is still quite sensitive and that's fine with me.

Paul

[POLARBEAR666]

C'mon guys, what's stopping you attacking from the top and removing the sound deadening foam around the inlet and outlet pipe?

Manicure?

Geezuz, I'd be in there in a flash!

If you remove the under bonnet stuff it gets a lot noisier.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/10/PolarHKSIntakeTSI6-1.jpg

[POLARBEAR666]

Another explanation for car feeling asleep.... is that all Golf's have 2 throttle maps, one for cruise and one for power/sport.

If you drive slowly for a little while in D it flicks over to cruise map and now 50% throttle only gives you 30% actual throttle. So you press down... nothing happens...so u press harder and finally it kicks down.

Whereas, in sport mode on teh sport throttle map 50% pedal probably = 40% throttle. and 70% pedal = 80% throttle.

If you look up SPRINTBOOSTER the product, u will see the graphs of input vs actual.

It pisses me off bigtime that we have such a soft cruise throttle map and I am hoping that an ecu flash might fix it.

[GTom]

Well.... it just so turns out I now have a similar problem.... no supercharger wants to kick in, in first gear...... however to compensate the turbo seems to want to chip in earlier in 1st... all other gears appear to be OK

Had the A/C on and from a standing start it is kind of hard to pull a 1.5 t car with a 1.4L up an incline.... with the AirCon on lol.... going to the dealer in a couple of weeks.....

[Fanaki]

Meant to reply earlier, had 7500km service in December and asked about the 24M3 update. Vehicle was purchased in June 2008 and manufactured in April 2008 and was told it didn't apply. Called back later in the day (just to doublecheck), asked someone else and was again told it didn't apply after giving the VIN. Boost gauge is still quite sensitive and that's fine with me.

Paul

Paul, i had a similar thing told to me. the VIN was checked and i was told the update didn't apply (mine purchased in Nov 08, and built Sept 08). it wasn't until the car was put on the diagnostics that they found the update was required. i guess at the end of the day, if the s/c is working off idle or near idle and the car is performing well that's all that matters.

[tdi guy]

Another explanation for car feeling asleep.... is that all Golf's have 2 throttle maps, one for cruise and one for power/sport.

If you drive slowly for a little while in D it flicks over to cruise map and now 50% throttle only gives you 30% actual throttle. So you press down... nothing happens...so u press harder and finally it kicks down.

Whereas, in sport mode on teh sport throttle map 50% pedal probably = 40% throttle. and 70% pedal = 80% throttle.

+1. I generally drive with a light throttle, so I now routinely do the 'reset' procedure (engine off, ignition on ACC, wait until MFD goes off, then hold throttle down for 10 secs). Seems to works every time to re-establish power at light throttle. Shouldn't need to do it, of course, but worthwhile...:)

TG

[Fanaki]

+1. I generally drive with a light throttle, so I now routinely do the 'reset' procedure (engine off, ignition on ACC, wait until MFD goes off, then hold throttle down for 10 secs). Seems to works every time to re-establish power at light throttle. Shouldn't need to do it, of course, but worthwhile...:)

TG

TG, does routinely doing this have any impact on the longevity of the car and it's control systems? maybe a noob question but i wouldn't be comfortable constantly resetting the system??

[tdi guy]

TG, does routinely doing this have any impact on the longevity of the car and it's control systems? maybe a noob question but i wouldn't be comfortable constantly resetting the system??

That is a good question. Currently have reset 3-4 times over a couple of months (when I notice a particularly sluggish response). I'll see if I can find out some more about the reset and whether it is just accessing a 'normal' reset feature (which may be relatively harmless) or is an 'unintended' consequence (which may be more of a problem).

TG