Modifications and insurance

[McDub]

Hey all,

I'm a soon to be MKIV gti owner, and have questions regarding insurance.
The car im getting is stock, and don't plan to do any if any mods to it, but still want to know where i sit regarding insurance if i do.

Say for arguments sake i'm with NRMA

Adding a stereo, do i need to mention it to the insurance company?


If i were to do a performance mod, from reading this
http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showpost.php?p=36107&postcount=16
i probably would do a conservative chip mod, or nothing at all.
If i did a chip mod, i'd maybe add a Forge 007P diverter valve.
Then somewhere down the track i'd consider coilovers if i felt the need for it, but probably wouldn't.

Regarding insurance, would NRMA not want to know me if i started fiddling with this?

I will read the Product disclosure statement in due course, but want to know how it all works in reality. (i mean how would they even know if you re-programmed your chip and did nothing else?)

Cheers.

[No457 Snowy]

Hi mate, welcome to the forum, yeah, it's a good idea to do your homework regarding insurance when you start modding your car, because not all companies treat mods equally, so what's seen as fine with one, will be taboo with another.

I can tell you from personal experience that the NRMA will be fine with mods like wheels, suspension (lowered 30mm max) and just about any other legal modification, BUT they will not cover ECU upgrades (chipping) on a turbocharged vehicle.

When I had my car chipped I moved over to Shannons who were more than happy to list my ECU upgrade on the policy as well as all my other mods.

Just make sure you do your homework.


Snowy :)

[The_Hawk]

I was with NRMA and they claim this will cover up to two mods not included turbo's and super chargers...

In your case with a factor turbo...??? who knows?

I would suggest an agreed value with all your mods listed including the stereo, at the end of the day they don't specialise in modified cars but are pretty good when it comes to a new CD player and a set of alloy wheels.

In my case they were covering my VR6 with CAI, coilovers, new stereo + sub, strut brace, aftermarket leather seats, steering wheel and gear knob as well as 16" rims.. oh and aftermarket headlights. All listed and all covered for an agreed value. There was always a question in my mind about it really being covered, but I was assured it was and had the paperwork to prove it.

I have sinced moved to Shannons who are cheaper and there is much less question (in my mind) that they really do cover all the mods... that and when I get round to the SC I don't need to move companies... but mostly they were cheaper than NRMA by a fair margin even on the wifes stocker.



suspension (lowered 30mm max) and just about any other legal modification

The last bit is more important I think, they said they will cover things that are legal, they did mention the 30mm thing to me but said "as long as it's legal"... mind you I have numerous copies of the insurance which says "lowered more than 30mm" in the mods section...

[No457 Snowy]

The last bit is more important I think, they said they will cover things that are legal, they did mention the 30mm thing to me but said "as long as it's legal"... mind you I have numerous copies of the insurance which says "lowered more than 30mm" in the mods section...

The 30mm figure is what they use as the benchmark because according to the RTA a vehicle is not legal if any part of the vehicle has less then 100mm ground clearance. This is what they will use as the deciding factor in a dispute because if it's not legal with the RTA it technically cannot be registered and street driven.

Snowy.

[McDub]

Thanks for the help,

i just read the nrma PDS, and it doesn't mention anything specific about modifications, other than that they are automatically covered.
So it does not make any sense to me.

so i did a trial run of ordering the quote, and when i clicked on "yes" to modifications, it stopped and said i'll need to speak to someone.

when you say "they will not cover ecu chipping", do you mean that they would refuse to insure the vehicle, or just that modification to the car?

Cheers.

sorry if these questions seem basic, but you'd think that the stupid PDS would actually explain this stuff better.

[dubbed]

Mate you're best to ring up and speak to someone so there's no confusion and the call is recorded. I always find I get different responses whenever I speak to someone from the one insurance company.

[gareth_oau]

form an Insurance company's perspective, if you modify the vehicle, then there is a greater risk of you crashing. therefore, to cover that risk they will charge you a higher premium.

some modifications are considered to take the vehicle outside the levels of risk that insurance companies are willing to take.

Therefore if they dont cover ECU upgrades, then the whole car isnt covered.

and dont try sneaking one in as they will use that to void a claim and cancel the policy. Even if you can prove that the ECU upgrade was not the cause of a potential claim, they will argue that they wouldnt have offered insurance in the first place if they knew the car was ECU'd.

Suggest you also try an insurance broker or two, they can often get deals that individuals cant

[McDub]

you mean i'd have to speak to someone? i thought that was why the internet was invented. damn it :P

I tried to compare the cost of insuring a stock gti with nrma, and shannons, but shannons said they couldn't continue, and asked me to call.
i don't want to speak to any hoomans dammit (especially when there's no-one on the other end...)

PS. has anyone noticed with NRMA, the insurance is about $500 cheaper if you have a 2003 model instead of a 2002 or earlier model????? :eek:
(for a 24 y.o driver with 7 years experience, 65% noclaim)
why such a big difference? the only physcial difference i'm aware of is that 2003 model has no sunroof? (as standard)

[No457 Snowy]

when you say "they will not cover ecu chipping", do you mean that they would refuse to insure the vehicle, or just that modification to the car?

Gareth is 100% correct, they won't insure the vehicle at all (policy cancelled), when the NRMA adviser told me this on the phone I asked to speak to her supervisor who then confirmed that modifying the ECU on a turbocharged vehicle would result in cancellation of the policy from the NRMA's point of view.

Mind you when I made this enquiry (last year) I had been insured with them for 20 years without a single claim and I am over 40 y/o with a 60% no claim bonus and when I explained this they said it made no difference as the NRMA stance on the issue was solid.

Your best bet is to ring them up and ask them, I would be interested in the response you get as their inflexible stance on this issue caused me to cancel my NRMA policy after 20 years and go with Shannons.

If you call them please give us an update.


Cheers,

Snowy :)

[Mr Messy]

Gareth is 100% correct, they won't insure the vehicle at all (policy cancelled), when the NRMA adviser told me this on the phone I asked to speak to her supervisor who then confirmed that modifying the ECU on a turbocharged vehicle would result in cancellation of the policy from the NRMA's point of view.

But what if they don't know that the car has been tuned? I'm a new GTI owner considering the treatment and the REVO (http://www.revotechnik.com.au/revo_frequently_asked_questions.html)website says clearly that insurance companies can't see that the car has been tuned.



1. Can the dealer see that my car is modified?
Not at all. Since there is no removal of any hardware there is no physical indication that the car has been modified. Engine electronics behave exactly as original and cannot be re-flashed by the dealer. The dealer computers cannot detect the software even with the latest versions of equipment. Since there is no permanent changes to the ECU then the factory original code can simply be reloaded.

The dealer cannot see something that truly isn’t there!

2. Can the insurance company see that the car is modified?

Insurance companies, like dealers, use different methods of discovery when it comes to chipping. Some use dealer computers to inspect the ECU while others physically open the ECU to inspect the soldering on the chip.

In either event the software would be completely invisible.

[qsilverza]

well we are on the subject, do slotted rotors and upgraded pads need to be shown ?

[Mr Messy]

I would imagine they would be fine as long as they are the original size. I view them the same as tyres - as long as they meet the neccesary rules (speed, weight rating etc) then its up to the owner to decide.

Then again I'm no guru.

OT: I wonder if braided lines are okay?

[McDub]

But what if they don't know that the car has been tuned? I'm a new GTI owner considering the treatment and the REVO (http://www.revotechnik.com.au/revo_frequently_asked_questions.html)website says clearly that insurance companies can't see that the car has been tuned.

"1. Can the dealer see that my car is modified?
Not at all. Since there is no removal of any hardware there is no physical indication that the car has been modified. Engine electronics behave exactly as original and cannot be re-flashed by the dealer. The dealer computers cannot detect the software even with the latest versions of equipment. Since there is no permanent changes to the ECU then the factory original code can simply be reloaded.

The dealer cannot see something that truly isn’t there!

2. Can the insurance company see that the car is modified?

Insurance companies, like dealers, use different methods of discovery when it comes to chipping. Some use dealer computers to inspect the ECU while others physically open the ECU to inspect the soldering on the chip.

In either event the software would be completely invisible. "

i wouldn't bank on what they said (unless you're willing to sue them in return for suggesting something you probably should not be allowed to do..)

They actually cover themselves, they just say that some companies do this, and some do that. they didn't actually say that insurance companies don't use NON-dealer computers, did they.

And "The dealer cannot see something that truly isn’t there! ", come on are you kidding me?
there's a fricken program of sorts inside the chip, of course there is something there, you're not paying for nothing. :duh:
that's like saying there's no porn on my hard drive because it's just full off 1's and 0's.
well plug it into something that can actually read it (a computer) and output it to a screen, and there you go, PORN.

[Mr Messy]

I suppose its not like a chip company is openly going to say "Be warned dude, this will completely stuff your warranty and insurance", are they?

They must get very sick of people asking Qs about whether it will affect their warranty etc.

[McDub]

Yeah but it's one thing to openly say it could void your warranty, and completely other thing to say that "they'll never know"

[No457 Snowy]

But what if they don't know that the car has been tuned? I'm a new GTI owner considering the treatment and the REVO (http://www.revotechnik.com.au/revo_frequently_asked_questions.html)website says clearly that insurance companies can't see that the car has been tuned.

Well that's where it comes back to you because you have a "Duty of Disclosure" whereby you MUST notify them as a condition of them agreeing to insure you. If they balk at an expensive claim and do some investigating and find things for themselves then your policy is null and void.

On the issue of brakes you must have an Engineers Certificate if you modify the braking system in any way that uses components that were not originally spec'd by the manufacturer as options for the vehicle.

You need to do your homework guys, don't play around with insurance companies because they are very experienced in dealing with this stuff on expensive modded cars that have been written off by people who thought they were smarter than the insurance company lawyers.

Best advice is to call them and discuss what they will and won't allow, if you lie to them or don't disclose full information then you're still not really covered because you are still at risk of them finding out and they can use that as an excuse to say if they had of known then insurance would never have been offered, so in the end you've paid all that money, but in reality you're still at risk. Not very smart.


Snowy. :)

[ggsngolf]

Hi all, with my insurance due on my car end of this month, reading this thread led me to the shannons website. My MK4 2L has been chipped and slightly modified and these are not covered in my Allianz insurance I am sure. So, on line the estimate (Shannon) was only $55 more with the option of mthly, 1/4, 1/2 or full year payments - great! Rang them up, unfortunately because this is my first 'modified' car, and I have not competed in track race days, advanced driving courses or have no history as a 'motor car enthusiast' - I do not qualify for Shannon insurance. Isn't Shannon car insurance for the modified car owner???? Does anyone have any other insurance company options??? Because my only other alternatives are to a) lie to my insurance company saying I have no mods and hope that nothing happens to the car or b) remove all mods so that the car falls in line with conditions of insurance.

[Vee-Dub]

Im insured through just car and they were fine with all my modifacations although some being illegal, i.e 19;s, coilovers, height, and they insured me for 5k + worth of stero, my insurance anually is around $3k which i have adjusted so i have a larger excess and only pay $1400 a year, pretty good considering even for a stock golf i was looking round the $1500 mark, Just starting to get some quotes at the minute for when I upgrade to a GTI

[VWEAPN]

insurance companies only insure a vehicle that is road worthy. speak to RTA technical to find out what is road worthy and what isnt.

[Mr Messy]

The more I think about it the more i want to chip mine, so I've had a bit of a look at insurance again.

NRMA costs me (<25, male, dodgy suburb, speed fine last year) about $250 a month, with a premium of $1100 or so. CPU mods not allowed.

(For interest I was quoted $4000 prem + $1k exess by AAMI and $2500 prem + $2k excess by Just Car)

Shannons cost for the same car, location, history etc $175 or so with an excess of $900.

With a modified ECU (I said APR on the phone) and 18 inch wheels - not costing extra, just for the 'risk' of it- the premiums go up to $195 or thereabouts. The dude on the phone asked lots of questions about whether I was a member of a car club/had done skid pans/ owned other 'enthusiast' cars but they can't be picky as I have none of the above and still qualified for insurance.

Anyway, for me Shannons seems to be a win-win because I'm not deceiving the NRMA (and hoping they don't find out) and have free reign to modify the car (so long as mods are legal).

[Dub_Star_V6]

well we are on the subject, do slotted rotors and upgraded pads need to be shown ?

Snowy ^^^^ is spot on. It's all about disclosure.

Pads won't matter one bit, as they don't change the mechanical componentry of the vehicle. And uprated discs and brakes are fine so long as they are able to be installed without modification. That is, they attach to the the original mounting hardware like hubs etc. And just in case you were wondering, spacers are illegal for road use, boys and girls.

Example: I went from 276mm solid discs to 294mm vented and slotted 4 pots on my '93 Subaru Liberty and NRMA just said "Thanks for letting us know." No change in premium, no hassles, no dramas.

On the other hand, braided lines are quite a bit different as they need to comply with ADR standards.

Think of it like Customs when you're entering or leaving Australia. People think that if you declare something it will be confiscated? Let me tell you after working in the airline industry for quite a number of years (both here and abroad) that Customs is far less likely to ask to check your bags if you tell them what you're carrying, rather than them having to dig through your stuff.

It's the same with insurance: do the sensible thing and tell your provider before you go crazy with mods that might void warranty, rego and insurance :idea:

[sierra055]

...<25, male, dodgy suburb, speed fine last year) about $250 a month, with a premium of $1100 or so. CPU mods not allowed.

(For interest I was quoted $4000 prem + $1k exess by AAMI and $2500 prem + $2k excess by Just Car)

Shannons cost for the same car, location, history etc $175 or so with an excess of $900.

...


Anyway, for me Shannons seems to be a win-win because I'm not deceiving the NRMA (and hoping they don't find out) and have free reign to modify the car (so long as mods are legal).


I didn't think Shannons insure under 25's?

Obviously Just Cars are another option with younger drivers and/or modified cars.

[Vee-Dub]

Shannons sometimes will insure under 25's, if you are a car enthuseist, or have atleast 5 years driving experience, im only 18 and they were going to give me insurance no worries

[gareth_oau]

someone mentioned on this or a sister forum that Just Car have some fine print saying they will use secondhand parts for repairs at their sole discretion

Cant verify that, but worth checking

[dubbed]

They also say they will cover certain modifications but if you're involved in a crash and they aren't legal, engineered, and/or road worthy they won't cover you.

[fuzion]

my car is completely covered including my boser bonnet via Just Cars, approx $1800 a year is what i pay almost. with nrma staff discount it was still over 3500+ and as mentioned no ecu mods were allowed so wasnt useful.

shannons your car must be garages is the only thing they request

[Mr ©harisma]

Wow, easiest thing to do is call your insurance company. I do work for one ( not going to mention names ) and most places are ok with mods.

They do separate on Modifications and Accessories. A Mod is a performance enhancing part e.g. Suspension changes, turbo, ECU etc.

An accessory is like tint, tow bar, etc. Definately read your PDS though.

If you are ever unsure about who will cover unique cars or situations, contact the Finacial Ombudsman Service to save yourself some time.