Home made Turbo kits.

[ScienceVR6]

I'm toying with the idea of a low blow turbo kit on the golf, just to get it hustling a bit harder.
I'm thinking about using a turbo from a WRX, or 200sx, with a larger wastegate, to handle the exhaust volumes of the V6, and to drop the boost a bit, to around 4 pound. I figuered the standard maf could handle that in a draw though design, and the injectors would keep up. would need to chip it or somthing. that will be the hardest part i recon. I'm already running a full 2.5" exhaust system so thats fine.

I'd proply need an intercooler, but stuffed if i know how im gunna get into my bumper, its damn tight.

not aiming for massive power figures, just more tourque, a bit more power, and a consistant 14 sec quarter.

any ideas?

[h100vw]

You can fit a vortec (vortech) charger without an intercooler at about 6PSI IIRC and get 300hp.

I have been in one and it flew!

Gavin

[ScienceVR6]

but then i'd have to buy things.

I wanna make somthing.

I could probly stuff 6psi in un intercooled, that would help packaging, but can the stock injectors handle it?
h100vw, can you program VR6's?

[ScienceVR6]

what car could i steal a turbo from?

[Tim]

guys in the US use stock injectors at 6psi.
If you wanted to do it ghetto styles maybe look at a rising rate fpr? Not sure how the ECU would respond to that but i know some companies go that route instead of a proper ECU tune

[ScienceVR6]

i have had a thought, re turbo lag.

There wouldn't be any loss of power while the turbo is off boost, would there. I'm not dropping the compression, so it should make the same power when off boost, yeah? so when the turbo comes on, its just extra power and torque. so it SHOULD be the same car to drive quietly, then add throttle, gain power.

So in summery, the turbo lag would be negligible, and even when off boost, the car will be just as fast.

Am i right?

[Preen59]

Put a puffer on it. More drivable, no lag. No heat issues. Don't have to modify your exhaust. A little vortec puffer would be the way to go imo. And it would probably be more fuel efficient for normal driving because the engine will be working more efficiently.

[h100vw]

but then i'd have to buy things.

I wanna make somthing.

I could probly stuff 6psi in un intercooled, that would help packaging, but can the stock injectors handle it?
h100vw, can you program VR6's?

Custom-Code do chips for std VRs but I am not aware of them doing one for a forced induction one.

I think it would be tough for them to do remotely.

GIAC do the chip for the Vortech kits. They do mention larger MAFs and bigger injectors in this tuning guide.

http://www.eurotuner.com/techarticles/eurp_0704_volkswagen_vr6_motor/1000_to_4000.html

[ScienceVR6]

guys in the US use stock injectors at 6psi.
If you wanted to do it ghetto styles maybe look at a rising rate fpr? Not sure how the ECU would respond to that but i know some companies go that route instead of a proper ECU tune

so rather than tune the ecu, let the R R F R add more fuel?

[Jarred]

best bet would be to mimick a pre packaged bolt on kit. that way you have a general guide as to what works and what does etc etc

[BL33SU]

mate!!

if your able to make up a cheap bolt on kit.. with maybe t25 or t28.

aslong as it works and doesnt blow up..

im gonna buy a vr6 the next day!

[ScienceVR6]

what kits are using what turbos?

what cars are using the same turbo's?

would the turbo form a VL work? its a 3.0L 6, so pretty close to mine.

I suppose the GT40 from a XR6 turbo would be excessive.

[Preen59]

Just get a low boost vortec blower kit or equivalent. Screw the shmurbo crap. :D

[BL33SU]

vr6 with a screamer pipe

oh ****!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D

[ScienceVR6]

mate!!

if your able to make up a cheap bolt on kit.. with maybe t25 or t28.

aslong as it works and doesnt blow up..

im gonna buy a vr6 the next day!
hmm, T28, thats on the later 200sx yeah? they run pretty high boost standard, so one would think they could handle my V6.

Guna do some more homework.

[Preen59]

hmm, T28, thats on the later 200sx yeah? they run pretty high boost standard, so one would think they could handle my V6.

Guna do some more homework.

JUST GET A BLOWER!

[ScienceVR6]

vr6 with a screamer pipe

oh ****!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D
giggity.

Just get a low boost vortec blower kit or equivalent. Screw the shmurbo crap. :D
whats one of these blower kits worth? probly more than i wanna spend. And i can't ad a screamer to a blower.

[h100vw]

I'd be following American trends with this TBH. No point re-inventing the wheel. Not to say that it cannot be done cheaply though. I would be reluctant to tear down a good motor to lower compression, so don't go daft with the boost.

www.vwvortex.com

Gavin

[Lorenz]

WRX turbo or a 200sx/SR20 turbo would be way to small as they are designed for a 2 litre motor. You cant drop the boost on the stock actuator as they are set to run a minimum of 7-8 pound of boost.
A T3 turbo off a VL tursbro commonwhore would be sufficient and shouldnt be very laggy on the 2.8 VR6 donk. A small sidemounted stock S13/Silvia/R32/Supra side mount cooler would be sufficient and wouldnt be hard to hide behind one of the front side vents.
Would be interesting to see a cool little home made kit though, done on the cheap. I have thought and discussed the idea with a few mates for my 2 litre, and it wouldnt be too expensive for some extra fun!

[BL33SU]

WRX turbo or a 200sx/SR20 turbo would be way to small as they are designed for a 2 litre motor. You cant drop the boost on the stock actuator as they are set to run a minimum of 7-8 pound of boost.
A T3 turbo off a VL tursbro commonwhore would be sufficient and shouldnt be very laggy on the 2.8 VR6 donk. A small sidemounted stock S13/Silvia/R32/Supra side mount cooler would be sufficient and wouldnt be hard to hide behind one of the front side vents.
Would be interesting to see a cool little home made kit though, done on the cheap. I have thought and discussed the idea with a few mates for my 2 litre, and it wouldnt be too expensive for some extra fun!

sounds good!! even with a cheap ebay t3 copy would do.

and then front mount from ebay, and then screamer pipe and a bov.


perfect!!!

[ScienceVR6]

ah yes, you have some expeariance with these lorenze, don't you. What about the turbo's from skylines?

[Preen59]

giggity.

whats one of these blower kits worth? probly more than i wanna spend. And i can't ad a screamer to a blower.

Well you either want good reliable power and good low down torque with no stupid turbo lag, or you want to have a car that goes tah tah tah when you back off so everybody looks...

A small blower kit would set you back a few grand, but its bolt on and lets go, no issues with warranty. No jerking around with oil and water lines to the turbo, making new exhaust manifolds etc. No tuning problems. No heat problems.

I don't really care what you do, but i thought i'd steer you in the right direction before you go wasting your money on a second hand turbo that is most likely knackered and all the other crap, only to give up before its finished because it was never going to be any good.

:)

[ScienceVR6]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/TURBO-T3-FJ-NISSAN_W0QQitemZ260247433053QQihZ016QQcategoryZ724 78QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
$150 for a turbo.

i like this idea.

[vwthunder]

A small blower kit would set you back a few grand
:)

Where would you get something like that from for a few grand ?

I know a Vortec will cost you around 5K

[twin eng, twin turbs]

Having made custom turbo set ups on my mk2 8v, a twin turbo set up on my twin eng mk1 and a larger custom set up on my audi a4 i can give you some valuable advice. Steer clear of the older bushed bearing turbos like the t25, t28 and even the t3 off of the vl bommodores, they are to small and restrictive on a vr6. Preen may hate turbos with a vengence but he has been in my mk2 and knows it suffers from next to no lag due to the modified high flow roller bearing ihi vf22 turbo. It comes on boost at 1500rpm and flows 450hp! I run roller bearing GT garretts on the other cars. To get the best drivability and power even if you dont want to run huge boost a roller bearing garrett GT series is the way to go on the vr6. A GT30r with a .64 air ratio exhaust will boost up super fast with stock compression and from what you have stated you are after it would be a good choice. Dont go to big turbo wise though because then you will get lag. Even a later model r33 skyline turbo off the rb25 is ball bearing and is a cheap option though you are limited to 14psi because of the ceramic exhaust wheel flying apart. Steer clear of the rb20 turbo though they look very similar the rb20 it is bush bearing. For the best response make your exhaust manifold as short as possible, this will give the not just the gas flow but the flame front from the engines exhaust stroke hitting the turbine wheel and spooling it faster! Tuned length manifolds will make more power up in the top of the rev range but if you are after drivabilty a short runner design is best.;)

[Lorenz]

ah yes, you have some expeariance with these lorenze, don't you. What about the turbo's from skylines?

I do have some experience yes! Have worked on many a Skyline and other turbo imports.

As "twin eng, twin turbs" said, an RB25 turbo would be good and easy to find, plus cheap, or even a VG30 BB turbo would be alright, as long as its not one of the single smaller TT ones from the 300zx, you want one off a VQ30DET (ie Nissan Cima) motor. A GT35/40 off an XR6 would be nice, but probably a tad big for what you want.

Making the manifold will be the hardest and most expensive part of the process unless you can do it yourself or know someone who can do it for you cheap!

[Jarred]

google is your friend:

http://www.homemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?topic=28135.10;wap2

[Tim]

http://www.turbonator.com/Assets/SALE-_$34.95.jpg

[zz2]

about as homemade as you can get...

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/06/rs12-2.jpg

[MattyT]

Science, when you embark on this mission, just make sure you have a made good friends with a dude and his tow truck ;)

[Golf Houso]

1/2 way there? :?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-GOLF-CORRADO-VR6-V6-12V-T3-T4-TURBO-MANIFOLD-KIT_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQihZ017QQitem Z270241900963QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Try to deal with the biggest problem first, software. Try to find a solder able chip with a turbo tune from C2 motorsports or something. The second you go into standalone your defeating the purpose of this project due to the cost. As for the other stuff, turbo, manifold, low comp gasket, its all there really you just have to buy it and spend some time making it fit. :cool:

[Golf Houso]

about as homemade as you can get...

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/06/rs12-2.jpg

Funny pic, but I can't help but still feel that there is a good chance that Civic is faster than the vast majority of cars on this forum :(

[RhysQ]

Funny pic, but I can't help but still feel that there is a good chance that Civic is faster than the vast majority of cars on this forum :(

yeah i think you're probably spot on with that one.....i don't think i've ever seen an exhaust pipe come out in front of the FRONT wheels j:.

thats gotta be a redneck drag car!

[zz2]

i dunno about that.
i have my doubts that the custom piping could even hold any meaningful boost... well that is proving there is enough gas follow from the exhaust to even get that massive turbo spooled up j:

[RhysQ]

i dunno about that.
i have my doubts that the custom piping could even hold any meaningful boost... well that is proving there is enough gas follow from the exhaust to even get that massive turbo spooled up j:

i did say redneck! "heck boi looka ma tuuurbo, ain't she puuurty, make me go real fast"

it's not really that far from the exhaust manifold to the turbo, not much further than a lot of stock turbo cars, except this system is heading up not down...j:

i say its legit and would work fine...there'd be no air flow and cooling issues here i wouldn't imagine.

ScienceVR6, you have been set a benchmark! :)

Cheers,

Rhys

p.s. are you sure its a civic....looks like an old crx to me (look at the fastback and high tailgate) :???:

[VW GTI]

;170032']p.s. are you sure its a civic....looks like an old crx to me (look at the fastback and high tailgate) :???:

That's what I thought too.

[mollins]

im sorry science.. but im with preen.. a supercharger is what you want for low boost and little impact on your car... no new exhaust manifold, less heat problems, less exhaust restriction at low boost etc...

if you want the DIY aspect.. just buy a cheap supercharger and design and build the pulleys, and brackets and stuff yourself.. you can even put on an intercooler if you want

oh.. and you can still run a poofter-valve if you want.. (even though i think they sound poo.. especially compared to the whine of a nice puffer complimented by the roar of a vr6)..

then if you want fuel economy back you can just pull it off in the future with little hassle (or switch it off if its clutched)..

just my 2 cents...

but good on you for having ago and getting some DIY action!!!

keep up the good work!!

[aprr32]

The exhaust manifolds on a VR6 are crying out for 2 K03's from a G4 GTI,easy to find, spool up quick and are very under stressed at 6 PSI.I have seen triple K03's on a G3 converted to a ute in the UK and even that wasn't laggy!A RRFPR should be all you need at that low boost.
TURBO'S, THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE!

[ScienceVR6]

i have been speaking to alot of tuners today, and the biggest issue im going to face, as someone mentioned earlyer, is tuning the computer.
the secoond issue is the exhaust manifold.
I'm being told making an adaptor below the manifold where it comes out of the manifold into the 2 down pipes, to take them into 1 and fed into the turbo, would work, just not as well as a fully custom one.
If this was a carby and points car, there would be no issues at all. In fact, i'd have finnished allready.

Many tuners are telling me to go the VF engineering blower kit, over the kenetics turbo kit, but i dont think they realy understand the whole built, not bought philosify. Im a hot rodder at heart, i have just never owned one. Or even a V8.

[DaveMack]

Funny pic, but I can't help but still feel that there is a good chance that Civic is faster than the vast majority of cars on this forum :(

Maybe Houso ... but would you be seen dead in it?

Dave

[Golf Houso]

Maybe Houso ... but would you be seen dead in it?

Dave

Hahahahahahaha .... erm ... no. I see your point.

[Lorenz]

Hmmmm, SC14 supercharger off a 4AGZE Toyota motor. Easy to come by and damn cheap these days. Can't see it being too hard to make fit up and alot less p1ssing about.
As for tuning it, what about a remap of the stock computer? Cheap and can make some great results ;)

Come to think of it, I might look into the SC14 S/C for my 2L.. hmmmm :D :D ideas ideas.......

[Tim]

As for tuning it, what about a remap of the stock computer? Cheap and can make some great results ;)


have not come across a company in australia capable of remapping the stock ECU

[Lorenz]

Hmmm, ill have to make some calls tomorrow then by the sounds of it!
Ive got a few sources of people who may be able to do it, sure they would be keen on trying something new/different for me :)

[Valver.]

You should never, ever use a Chinese turbo from eBay... That is if don't want stripped bits of metal blown through your engine at more than normal atmospheric pressure! They are a major issue waiting to happen the minute you install them (just ask some of the good turbo workshops like GCG).

There's also no point using a little turbo with stuff all boost: 6cyl exhaust gas will spool it up so quickly that the torque will just taper off, giving it Mk3 8v characteristics.

Just save some pennies and get a proper C2 kit or a VF charger. We all know the saying about power and reliability so I won't bother to repeat it :)

P.S. Twin turbo is hardly a good idea when on a budget: you effectively have to double your purchases of everything!!

[peedman]

Some chinese made turbos are ok they such as the kkr and xspower, more seen in the jap cars but def dont go the ebay specials.

[Valver.]

Some chinese made turbos are ok they such as the kkr and xspower, more seen in the jap cars but def dont go the ebay specials.

I wouldn't touch any of them - especially when you can pick up a nice Garrett for 600 from the US. Even the MHI EVO 9 and IHI VF22s are silly cheap from GruppeS in the US -about half what MRT want for them :)

Not the best option for a 6 cylinder, though, is all...

[Preen59]

Ehem, Vortec blower, ehem. :biggrin:

[Tim]

it doesnt take much effort on google to bring up all sorts of complaints about xspower turbos. I remember a couple years ago there was a famous photo of one of those turbos housings just falling apart

[Sharkie]

Come to think of it, I might look into the SC14 S/C for my 2L.. hmmmm :D :D ideas ideas.......

A piggyback ECU would do what you need for a Mk3. Could get away with a piggyback and SC14 with some bits thrown in for less than $2K I think.....

[Valver.]

A piggyback ECU would do what you need for a Mk3. Could get away with a piggyback and SC14 with some bits thrown in for less than $2K I think.....

I'm not aware of any piggybacks for Mk3s, certainly none that address the lack of a MAP sensor :confused:

[Bug_racer]

After reading everything there are some points that people fail to realise .

Anyone can make a cheap turbo system that will work on , say a Golf VR6 , but , you need to take into consideration a few things . Its a N/A engine that your converting to forced induction so your going to need an oil supply line to the turbo , You can use the oil filter housing and tap into the oil temp switch or oil pressure switch . The oil return is a bit trickier , you need to get the right angle and size out of the turbo and into the sump . If this is wrong the bearings on the turbo dont get the right lubrication through flow/pressure and eventually they collapse . I went through 3 different return pipes before I got the angle / length right on the s3 . The coolant supply is a little easier since you only really use it to maintain operating temp of the turbo and once switched off allow coolant to flow through the turbo so it doesnt cool too quickly ! I highly recommend getting a turbo timer hooked up to an electric run on pump as is found on VR6 , t4 2.5l and most turbo VAG cars (except golf gti) . Or in the case of the VR6 , just plumb it into the turbo or even run a second one :) .
Positioning of the turbo is another issue . Looking in the engine bay there is heaps of room behind the engine , but the amount of heat the turbo generates means it really needs a lot of shielding so you dont melt brake booster hose or any other plastic bits on the back of the engine bay . Also pending where the turbo will sit , you may run into problems with the turbo down pipe being very close to the brake master cylinder !
Pipework is fairly straightforward as long as you have a good fabricator / welder that can do all that work . Positioning of the DV will also help with spool , as will knowing what pipe size with the turbo size and intercooler size so do your research there !
Tuning will probably be the biggest hurdle . Every Mk3 VR6 Ive tuned has either been full stand alone or just a Giac chip . I am unsure if the ECU is tunable using American based chips . We do not have OBD on our cars so our ecus are different to the ones in the US . But it may work because all you need is the base tune and manipulate that . Anyone tried lemmiwinking a mk3 ecu here in Aus ?

Anyway , after all that I would rather just get a supercharger kit , seems so much easier , probably cheaper too and more reliable . The only issues Ive heard about with charger kits is the belt coming off . For about $5k locally sourced they are a better alternative , well , unless your seeking 400hp+ :)

[Sharkie]

I'm not aware of any piggybacks for Mk3s, certainly none that address the lack of a MAP sensor :confused:

In 1998 when I was doing work to my 1995 VR6, I had the option of a Unichip piggyback or a remap of the ECU by VW Motorsport.

The tuning house that did the piggyback also had a wicked 3.1l and 6speed conversion.

In the end I opted for the VW Motorsport remap as the other was just too expensive.

Today I would have opted for VF-Engineerings supercharge kit for the VR6 though......

[Peter Jones]

it doesnt take much effort on google to bring up all sorts of complaints about xspower turbos. I remember a couple years ago there was a famous photo of one of those turbos housings just falling apart

Like this One?

http://jdm-insider.com/Blogs/Eric/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/fakexs004.jpg

There's some other good pics and a bit of XS power background on this blog. http://www.jdm-insider.com/Blogs/Eric/index.php?s=stuff&submit=Search

Pete

[Valver.]

In 1998 when I was doing work to my 1995 VR6, I had the option of a Unichip piggyback or a remap of the ECU by VW Motorsport.

The tuning house that did the piggyback also had a wicked 3.1l and 6speed conversion.

In the end I opted for the VW Motorsport remap as the other was just too expensive.

Today I would have opted for VF-Engineerings supercharge kit for the VR6 though......


That is a VR6, though - the 2.0 ECUs are a different story :)

[Golf Houso]

No one's ever heard of Haltec before?:rolleyes:

Systems start at 750, your looking at 1,500-2,000 with a completely tuned system with free back-ups when the idle or tune comes out, and the founding owner is in Whetheril Park Sydney!

Its still beyond me why people even bother in paying for soldered chips when you can get a completely tunable standalone ECU's for either the same price or a few hundred more... All that jap boys do it, and they're always thinking about budgets too ya know...

[Bug_racer]

I will choose a chip over stand alone any day for daily driving . Ive had both and can tell you that a factory ecu is a lot smoother to drive . Jap cars are basically a really fast tin can (thats what they feel like anyway) and most dont care about cars driveability .


No one's ever heard of Haltec before?:rolleyes:

Systems start at 750, your looking at 1,500-2,000 with a completely tuned system with free back-ups when the idle or tune comes out, and the founding owner is in Whetheril Park Sydney!

Its still beyond me why people even bother in paying for soldered chips when you can get a completely tunable standalone ECU's for either the same price or a few hundred more... All that jap boys do it, and they're always thinking about budgets too ya know...

[Golf Houso]

I will choose a chip over stand alone any day for daily driving . Ive had both and can tell you that a factory ecu is a lot smoother to drive . Jap cars are basically a really fast tin can (thats what they feel like anyway) and most dont care about cars driveability .

Well, thats in the circumstances where it isn't tuned properly, find the right tuner and you will never have a problem. And if you do end up having a problem, you can just come back for free to upload the tune. Do you have that level of support from a chip manufacturer?

Do you sell both standalone systems and chips, or just chips out of interest?

[Sharkie]

I ran a Haltech on my turbo 1800 16v. It took a while to setup properly, but was awesome when done. No complaints

If you are going fully custom a full aftermarket ECU is the only way to go.....:bowdown:

[Peter Jones]

I want to assemble my own MegaSquirt ecu for my 2.0. They're a bargain if you happen to have good electronic and micro processor skills.

I'm still researching the options here.

Pete

[DubSteve]

I would say if the car is custom then yes a standalone system would be the way to go, but if your car is stock then a chip would be the way I reckon just for a little something extra.

I have to agree with Golf Houso though a standalone in a NA would probably bring out all its potential:?

[Golf Houso]

Please... keep me updated Peter Jones :biggrin:
Oh and if you ask nicely on the Tex' people will share their tunes with you :)

A chip is good on a stock car as Steve said, but if you want to make the most out of the mods, particularly on an uncommon or custom set up, it seems standalone is the only option.


I want to assemble my own MegaSquirt ecu for my 2.0. They're a bargain if you happen to have good electronic and micro processor skills.

I'm still researching the options here.

Pete

[DubSteve]

A chip is good on a stock car as Steve said, but if you want to make the most out of the mods, particularly on an uncommon or custom set up, it seems standalone is the only option.

Don't forget though in saying that a chip can do a bit to other than just give you a little lift it can perform better for your buck.

I have a chip with cams, headers, and porting programs incorporated into it pre by the manufacturer. This was a good option at the time so I went for it.

I know of another VR not on the forums just finished a 15g engine rebuild as a daily running 280 cams. Hes about to put a standalone in there but for now hes running off the stock comp and it moves reallly well!!!

[Peter Jones]

Please... keep me updated Peter Jones :biggrin:
Oh and if you ask nicely on the Tex' people will share their tunes with you :)


Oh I will, don't worry about that. I'm not one to trumpet stuff I might do (Unlike some others around here:) ) but you'll read all about it here when it's under way.

I like the MegaSquirt approach to things and the open source nature of the system, it seems very flexible. I need to decide on the rest of the induction approach for the motor but I'm swaying towards forced induction at the moment and watching the turbo vs supercharger debate with interest.

It looks to me regardless of the induction type Fuel injection is the way to go. MegaSquirt is probably the most complex option, but I work with far more complex electronic systems here at work every day and I'm well tooled up for this stuff.

Pete

[Golf Houso]

Don't forget though in saying that a chip can do a bit to other than just give you a little lift it can perform better for your buck.

I have a chip with cams, headers, and porting programs incorporated into it pre by the manufacturer. This was a good option at the time so I went for it.

I know of another VR not on the forums just finished a 15g engine rebuild as a daily running 280 cams. Hes about to put a standalone in there but for now hes running off the stock comp and it moves reallly well!!!

Thats right, the performance of the mods are greater than the sum of their parts, he probably is moving well, but imagine how much better he will be moving when he puts the standalone in :)

I look forward to reading about your build Mr. Jones. And if it ends up going well, I might just end up buying a mk1 or doing something equally brash and going all out! But yeah... megasquirt is great, if you can get a tune or tuner that is :rolleyes:

[BL33SU]

zzzZZZZZ TUTUTTUTUT :duh: :bowdown: :wasntme:

[DubSteve]

Thats right, the performance of the mods are greater than the sum of their parts, he probably is moving well, but imagine how much better he will be moving when he puts the standalone in :)


Thats right he was going to get it installed in the next couple of days so very eagerly excited to see this thing move!

When the time comes to go FI I'm still contemplaiting running standalone or running the chip that is provided at the time I'm still looking at different SC kits however I have narrowed it down to 2 one being the VF kit and the other being the BahnBrenner one. However thats for another thread and another day:)

[Golf Houso]

zzzZZZZZ TUTUTTUTUT :duh: :bowdown: :wasntme:

Shhhssssshh I'll make a midnight club thread soon... :banana:

[Valver.]

Well, thats in the circumstances where it isn't tuned properly, find the right tuner and you will never have a problem. And if you do end up having a problem, you can just come back for free to upload the tune. Do you have that level of support from a chip manufacturer?



No way. No matter who tunes your car, it will never, ever - not even close - run like a factory tuned ECU, which has been tested from below minus temps, to soaring heat, tuned in all possible driving conditions, and on engine and chassis dynos, honed over years at a total cost of a few hundred million dollars.

If you can find a chip that simply edits the existing maps to handle boost pressure, big cam overlap or whatever it may be, then that is far and away a better option.

I've tried both a few times now, and driven plenty of cars in similar circumstances and aftermarket ECUs are **** compared to stock ones. No honest tuner anywhere in the world will claim to get a factory-esque car for a $5k ECU install. It just isn't possible.

A perfect example is the Motec Australia Gallardo (the previous one), which they insisted on murdering with a new ECU. It never ran the same, and this was tuned by the best aftermarket ECU manufacturer in the world...

And anyway, who the hell would pay thousands for a new ECU in a Mk5 GTI, for example, when for about a grand you can get a GIAC flash, which has had far more RnD thrown at it in multiple countries of the world.

[Preen59]

No way. No matter who tunes your car, it will never, ever - not even close - run like a factory tuned ECU, which has been tested from below minus temps, to soaring heat, tuned in all possible driving conditions, and on engine and chassis dynos, honed over years at a total cost of a few hundred million dollars.

If you can find a chip that simply edits the existing maps to handle boost pressure, big cam overlap or whatever it may be, then that is far and away a better option.

I've tried both a few times now, and driven plenty of cars in similar circumstances and aftermarket ECUs are **** compared to stock ones. No honest tuner anywhere in the world will claim to get a factory-esque car for a $5k ECU install. It just isn't possible.

A perfect example is the Motec Australia Gallardo (the previous one), which they insisted on murdering with a new ECU. It never ran the same, and this was tuned by the best aftermarket ECU manufacturer in the world...

And anyway, who the hell would pay thousands for a new ECU in a Mk5 GTI, for example, when for about a grand you can get a GIAC flash, which has had far more RnD thrown at it in multiple countries of the world.

Exactly. Why do you think no one ever uses a stand alone ECU on a standard engine to improve the performance of it? HMMMM....

The only time you would use an aftermarket ECU is if you standard engine management won't work with the equipment you are going to use. And for a street car with minimal modifications, the factory ECU will have enough scope to work with that engine.

[Oneofthegreats]

No way. No matter who tunes your car, it will never, ever - not even close - run like a factory tuned ECU, which has been tested from below minus temps, to soaring heat, tuned in all possible driving conditions, and on engine and chassis dynos, honed over years at a total cost of a few hundred million dollars.

If you can find a chip that simply edits the existing maps to handle boost pressure, big cam overlap or whatever it may be, then that is far and away a better option.

I've tried both a few times now, and driven plenty of cars in similar circumstances and aftermarket ECUs are **** compared to stock ones. No honest tuner anywhere in the world will claim to get a factory-esque car for a $5k ECU install. It just isn't possible.

A perfect example is the Motec Australia Gallardo (the previous one), which they insisted on murdering with a new ECU. It never ran the same, and this was tuned by the best aftermarket ECU manufacturer in the world...

And anyway, who the hell would pay thousands for a new ECU in a Mk5 GTI, for example, when for about a grand you can get a GIAC flash, which has had far more RnD thrown at it in multiple countries of the world.

Spot on & definately has alot of merit to it.

I do have to say, has anyone been in a car with an Autronic on autotune?

It's unbelievable.

There were a couple bloke's down here who fitted it to a blown small block which was used as an everydayer too.. They wired it up, done a basic tune & ran it over the space of 3 month's. It went from a 10.40 all the way down 9.70 & then onto a 9.20 with open pipes. They didn't touch the tune at all. They dialled in what they wanted the A/F ratio to be & let it do it's thing.
Work's just like a factory ECU, only in wide band.

[ScienceVR6]

wow, i didn't realise this thread was still active!

I'm looking at a wolf 3D to do the computing, but still undecided on turbo or supercharger. i may just do the computer and a set of cams.

[Valver.]

wow, i didn't realise this thread was still active!

I'm looking at a wolf 3D to do the computing, but still undecided on turbo or supercharger. i may just do the computer and a set of cams.

Don't do it, the V500 is crap and more expensive than an Autronic SMC (an SM4 is only 300 more in itself!) ;)

Yanks seems to get top results just using a C2 chip :)

[abreut]

I have heard about the autronic auto-tune but never heard how good it was. I mean the auto-tune of fuel, yes a computer could easily do that for different loads with a wideband, but fuel plus ignition, a smart computer probably could that as well with knock control but how well. I know for a fact that my motor produced power up until a certain ignition advance and after that the power dropped off and that was before it started pinging. I don't know if an auto-tune computer would know when to stop advancing, would it just go until it pinged and then back off a little? And surely they would have to verge on the side of caution too. They wouldn't want guys blowing up engines when opting for cheaper lower octane fuel etc.

Saying that I would have bought one of those autronics if I didn't decide to exercise some financial restraint. For initial setup, man would it have made things easier. The amount of times I fouled plugs initally trying to set my haltech up sent a shiver up the spine seeing as though it was a completely rebuilt engine. It felt like I was just washing the bores on a virgin engine!

[Oneofthegreats]

I forgot to add that the "autotune" is for fuel trim only.

You still need to input a timing map. NA is much easier, but a general rule of thumb for a starting point is for every pound of boost, you pull one degree of timing. Sometime's it can be around .7° for every psi.

Eg. Hypothetically you have a advance curve like this with 25psi dialled in & running on PULP 98

You pull about 1° of timing for every pound of boost.
(A 20VT can take around 1 degree pull until 12 lbs and then I follow the curve minus 12°) Great engine!

Idle - 08°
1000 - 09°
1500 - 16°
2000 - 20°
2500 - 25°
3000 - 30°
3500 - 35°
4000 - 36°
4500 - 36°
5000 - 36°
5500 - 37°
6000 - 37°
6500 - 38°
7000 - 37°
7500 - 36°

So if you've dialled in 25psi & hit's that @ 5000rpm , your timing will be 11-12° BTDC @ 5000rpm

This is copied form a Autronic dealer


AutoTune

The AutoTune will tune the engine with no input from the operator. To do this there is a closed loop target air fuel ratio table, that you edit and input the air fuel ratios that you require at the various engine RPM and Load points .

Autronic exhaust gas analyzer is required to be connected to the ECU O2 I/P. This input is configered as the actual air fuel ratio. As the engine is driven through the various RPM and Load points the AutoTune algorithm will adjust the volumetric efficiency entries in the main fuel map to "Hone" in on demand air fuel ratio.

During the AutoTune process you do not need to engage with the keyboard.

When tuning is complete, you can go directly to the Air Fuel Ratio table and enter the new A/F ratio at any RPM/Load site. Providing you make no changes to the physical engine, intake or exhaust, then you need not alter the volumetric efficiency entries.

If you do modify the volumetric efficiency then you will need to use the analyzer to AutoTune the engine again.

The AutoTune is much faster then a good operator. It is not possible to manually tune as quick as the AutoTune. A typical engine will take less than 20 minutes to fully map on a engine dyno.

I have tuned many engines in my business and it is AutoTune is an indispensable tool.

Overview

Autronic "AutoTune" software provides rapid hands-tree tuning of Engine Air/Fuel mixtures. This automated operation frees the engine tuner, allowing total concentration on safe engine/dyno operation. On road tuning of motor vehicles is even possible.

This software uses a complex combination of math, including statistics, trigonometry and fuzzy logic to intelligently adjust the fuel delivery tables. Initial tuning is rapid usually occurring within 1 second. High precision can be achieved by allowing the "AutoTune" to operate for an extended time at each engine operating point. The operator has control over the balance between tuning speed and accuracy. Accuracy is ultimately limited by the accuracy of the attached Air/Fuel ratio measurement equipment.

The program provides visual indication of the tune status. Any programmable alarm conditions will indicate and sound if requested in status bar. Automatic and manual storage of tune status allows the user to monitor the tuning progress even if undertaken in several sessions. Tuning usually proceeds 2 to 5 times faster than possible by manual means. Fuel savings of as much at 90% have been reported. The considerable savings in engine life are obvious.

This program also has elaborate diagnostics facilities and allows simultaneous operation of the ECU internal data logger and external PC data logging.

Versions will soon be available that have live engine operating data graphs while tuning, and a live 3D graphical presentation of the tuning process.

[Preen59]

wow, i didn't realise this thread was still active!

I'm looking at a wolf 3D to do the computing, but still undecided on turbo or supercharger. i may just do the computer and a set of cams.

Charger! :biggrin:

[abreut]

Sounds pretty useful if mainly just for the initial setup. You can't really avoid going to a dyno to get the most out of a tune.

The main differentiator between high-end ECU's and mid-range back when I was doing my research was the ability to accept a knock-sensor waveform as an input for knock-control. Maybe more of them are offering that now I'm not sure.

[Tim]

if science is still intent on turning his car into something rallyesque then it has to be a turbo sorry. And we should be able to hear the anti-lag from the other side of the forrest!

*CRACK! BANG! CRACK!*

[twin eng, twin turbs]

wow, i didn't realise this thread was still active!

I'm looking at a wolf 3D to do the computing, but still undecided on turbo or supercharger. i may just do the computer and a set of cams.

TURBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:biggrin:

[Preen59]

TURBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:biggrin:

BLOWER!!! :brutal:

[twin eng, twin turbs]

BLOWER!!! :brutal:

You slip a blower on your 16v bro and come race my turbo 16v and that will prove the point once and for all!!!:moonie::moonie::moonie::moonie::moonie::moo nie::moonie::moonie::moonie:

[Preen59]

You slip a blower on your 16v bro and come race my turbo 16v and that will prove the point once and for all!!!:moonie::moonie::moonie::moonie::moonie::moo nie::moonie::moonie::moonie:

One day i will build a blown mechanically injected 16v on alcohol and blow you away buddy.

[Oneofthegreats]

You could have 10.5:1, Alcohol, blower, mechanical injection & throw nitrous in there just for the sake of it

My money would still be on this on PULP. Maybe even C16

Hell, all you would have to a 16V internally for a turbo is change the rod's.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/06/untitled1-1.jpg

Just out of interest, Valver's ABF 16V is only on 15psi & making 225kwatw! It's got a T3/4. Imagine what it could make on 25psi! That turbo will do that too!

I've read about a few of the blown 16V's 1.8 & 2L's & there nowhere near the same power level with the same boost level's. some can't even get near it with a 100hp hit of gas! Even with built engine's.

The BBM 16V blower setup is rated upto a whooping 300hp! Phwooooor.

I love blower's, the look's, the noise, the throttle response, but not on small capacity engines incl. the VR6. They don't make enough power as it is to bleed off more to drive something else.

Sorry Preen, I don't think a blower will get near it.

[Preen59]

Screw you guys. You guys and your turbochargers. :biggrin: What's the point in having an extra 50hp if you are already getting wheelspin though? :driver:

[thestu]

i agree with preen...

but it does make for some phat noises from the engine bay :P i love the dump/vent

[Oneofthegreats]

What's the point in having an extra 50hp if you are already getting wheelspin though? :driver:

More like 150hp.

There is no point other than say I've got it & you don't & you can never take it away from me.

Boost drop's the minute your wheel spinning whether your blown or turbo'd regardless.

[Preen59]

More like 150hp.

There is no point other than say I've got it & you don't & you can never take it away from me.

Boost drop's the minute your wheel spinning whether your blown or turbo'd regardless.

Meh. I like beating people with inferior equipment. :D

Yeah that's true, because the load comes off the engine. But still.

[jayjay]

you guys should really quit your silly argument and look at the new golf tsi.. i'm sure that by-pass valve could be done mechanically...:rolleyes:

[Oneofthegreats]

you guys should really quit your silly argument and look at the new golf tsi.. i'm sure that by-pass valve could be done mechanically...:rolleyes:

Don't even start on those crappy arse setup's.:eek: That's my opinion of them anyway.

Sorry to offend anyone who's got one.

Not interested one little bit in them.

[Preen59]

Don't even start on those crappy arse setup's.:eek: That's my opinion of them anyway.

Sorry to offend anyone who's got one.

Not interested one little bit in them.

Hahaha. I like the idea. Wouldn't own one though.

[twin eng, twin turbs]

Hahaha. I like the idea. Wouldn't own one though.

I find your stance on turbos just a little ironic considering your daily driver is wait for it..... A turbo charged vw!! HA HA. It may be a caddy TDI but its a great motor with the addition of the turbo, good power and torque and great fuel economy. You cant argue with that bro! :biggrin:

[Preen59]

I find your stance on turbos just a little ironic considering your daily driver is wait for it..... A turbo charged vw!! HA HA. It may be a caddy TDI but its a great motor with the addition of the turbo, good power and torque and great fuel economy. You cant argue with that bro! :biggrin:

ONLY because there is no puffed substitute! :D I still don't like the initial throttle lag. The old Mazda 626 S/C diesel doesn't have that. It's just hold onto the steering wheel and hit the throttle.

That's just typical t-t-t-turbo fan boy nonsense. :bowdown: :moonie: