Please help my friend with his possible future vw purchase :)

[Mischa]

long time friend, looking into buying a caravelle as he says in this email. i dont know anything about lift kits and what not, im way more interested in sitting closer to the ground! so possibly some of you van nutters could help me/him out? :) this is a copy of the email. much appreciated.


Dear M.,

Here's a query for a VW expert and mechanical engineering student.

I'm tempted to buy a VW Caravelle with the more powerful diesel and 4WD. It would be good for camping expeditions.

But the ground clearance is poor (165mm) and made worse, in practice, by the wide track and long wheelbase.

The aim is to get up and down bush tracks in national parks, nothing too serious. Over the last few days we have been to Kaputar and the Warrumbungles and around Lightning Ridge. Some of the tracks had sunk wheel tracks and a highish middle of the road.

Trakka who make impossibly expensive conversions offer some modifications by the German outfit Auto Seikel. Their most elaborate offering improves the ground clearance with suspension modifications, adds bigger wheels, and changes the gears to provide lower lower gears. The full deal is a bit over the top.

However the simplest modification simply seems to provide longer coils and shock absorbers to gain 30mm. I guess the kit could be bought by mail order.

You can see the offerings on the Auto Seikel website and hitting Configurator and then "T5".

Cars with independent suspension have constant velocity joints at the inboard and outboard end of the drive shafts. And CV joints with necessarily greater ability for large angles for the steering wheels.

Now I'm wondering whether standard CV joints could handle the more extreme angles if you put in longer springs. Or is the downside that they might fail rather quickly and/or cause vibration.

And, of course, the suspension arms would have different angles and there might be problems with this.

Any ideas about these issues or about who we could ask?

The more obvious and simpler downside is multi-story carparks. Solution, a hacksaw and the first Caravelle convertible.

Thanks for any thoughts you may have.

Graeme

PS don't be distracted by their lift kits for Golfs!

cut a long story short, he wants to buy a caravelle and raise it a bit to get down dirt tracks (nothing serious) i cant see any problems in this??

i would guess he just needs new shocks springs and tyres. are there coilovers you can get that are for offroad?

[Golf Loon]

I had the TDI wound up high on the front and snapped 3 CV joints, wound it down to reduce the angle and is sweet now. T4 2.5TDI It would be worth considering stronger ones if they are available.

Also would a SWB be more agile than the LWB? worth considering as a lot of the conversions are LWB.

[gregozedobe]

If he is trying to go where "proper" 4WDs have been wearing deep tyre ruts it is a bit much to ask of a T5 (even a modded SWB version). It is possible to make a T5 a little bit better, but the best "mod" he could do would be a proper 4WD training course so he knows what is (and isn't) practical in a T5.

IIRC Trakka are the Oz agents for seikel, and they don't like to supply components for installation to an existing van, they only modify complete campers that they convert and sell.

He should also look at some underbody "armour" to protect his sump, gearbox, fuel tank and other vulnerable bits.

[Seano]

Mischa

I can help. My 2001 T4 has been lifted (in early 04) to get a bit shy of 180mm under the diff. It is easy enough to do.

Used to live in far north west NSW and have travelled widely - punted the Syncro along the Great Central Road in WA, through El Questro Station (inc. interesting water crossing) and plenty of others besides.

All Graeme needs is a pair of KVRR15 rear springs from King Springs....these are exey for what they are - around $400 but you can order them from any auto shop.

He should replace all the shocks as well. I'm using Koni's but the Bilsteins are fine too. Revalving hasn't proved to be a required item.

The other thing he'll need in a Syncro T4 is some rear diff spacers to lower the rear diff slightly to ensure optimum driveline and CV angles after the lift. Mine are custom fabricated based on the spacers in the Seikel kit - cost ~$75.

Front CV angles don't change that radically as a result of the lift....

First job is to replace all the shocks.

Then, with the van sitting level on a concrete floor, ensure the van is sitting 1 degree down at the front then adjust the front torsion bars accordingly until you get this sorted - this is critical for a long CV life!! Then measure the vehicle height (wheel centre to arch) at each corner and the length of the torsion bar bolts (end to nut).

Remove the rear springs and replace with the Kings. Whilst the OE spring just fell out, I had the devils own getting the new taller springs in. In the end, I had to remove the trailing arm!! It'd be easier if (and require less post fitting adjustment) you could disconnect the CV at the rear diff but I didn't have the right tool at the time.

Go for a short spin to settle the springs in and return to your level concrete floor.

Measure the height increase on the rear.....now you've got an idea about how much to raise the front. However, the measure isn't that critical since you need to adjust the front torsion bars to return the T4 to 1 degree downangle. Which means winding them up....

Now fit your diff spacers. Mine are made from aluminium. There's thinner one at the front and two thicker ones at the rear. They go between the chassis and the rubber mounts. You'll need to replace the mounting bolts as the stock ones aren't long enough (they are M10 hi tensile). Support the diff on a jack, undo the bolts, lower the diff down, slide in the spacers, fit the new bolts, lift the diff, tighten the bolts.

Now that the van is sitting up higher and every thing is in place.......drive straight to your nearest wheel alignment centre and get a full re-alignment as your toe-in will be out by miles!! It is likely that the toe-in adjustment will be almost or to the limit of what's possible.

Job's done...all that's need now is some AT tyres......on 16" wheels this is no drama but a little harder for 15" wheels due to lack of choice.

[Graeme]

The advice is appreciated, especially Seano's detailed masterpiece on the economical and successful way to achieve ground clearance with a T4.

If I'm right the T5 does not have torsion bars at the front so hopefully we'll hear from someone who has successfully experimented with one of these and has found front springs and shockers to suit. If only Seano would buy a T5 and set himself up in business he'd have queue.

An update regarding Trakka which corrects one of the posts...

They confirmed that they will put Auto Seikel kits on cars brought to them by owners if they are new or near new. But they need between $3,000 and $4,000 for the simple 30mm Auto Seikel upgrade.

I assume Trakka would supply a useful engineer's certificate as they do with other modifications.

(A DIY approach is only sensible if the Comprehensive or TPPD insurer notes and agrees the modifications.)

Anyway its all academic - the latest experts predict a US$200 a barrel oil price. I'm off to buy a bicycle.

[WEDEL.1]

I got an extra 0.70 inch by using 215/70X15 tyres instead of 205/65X15.

Maris

[Seano]

Graeme
The T5 has struts all around. So it's fairly straightforward remove and replace job but you have major problems with alignments if you go too far.

All the bits that Trakka are using come in tiny volumes from Germany which explains the expense. However, it is likely possible to get the same parts fitted in the factory by special order as Seikel make the official off road pack for VW....but I'd be rather surprised if it was any cheaper.

There are raised rear springs for the T5 from King Springs. The code is KVRR18.....

Given the cost of servicing (let alone fuelling) a TDI T5........a treadly is a good option.

[MultiplexMan]

An update regarding Trakka which corrects one of the posts...

They confirmed that they will put Auto Seikel kits on cars brought to them by owners if they are new or near new. But they need between $3,000 and $4,000 for the simple 30mm Auto Seikel upgrade.


I just checked the Seikel web site - AUD3-4K (EUR1559) would get you only shocks & springs!!! I would seriously consider custom made adjustable spring perch dampers for this money from someone like Drummond Motor Sport...

I also note Seikel get more "lift" by wheel/tyre selection...as per Maris 8-)

http://www.seikel.de/de/index.php?id=10&cid=300&param=20&lang=2

[MultiplexMan]

If he is trying to go where "proper" 4WDs have been wearing deep tyre ruts it is a bit much to ask of a T5 (even a modded SWB version). It is possible to make a T5 a little bit better, but the best "mod" he could do would be a proper 4WD training course so he knows what is (and isn't) practical in a T5.


I second this. I use Landcruisers & Hiluxes for work in the Cooper Basin, Pilbara and Kimberley regions. Most driving is unsealed off road and we must (company regulation) have 4WD engaged all the time. I have taken my 2WD T5 SWB in the same areas without issue.

It's all about knowing the vehicle (and driver) limits.

I have never taken the company 4WD anywhere near the limits we did during the 4WD courses.

It is amazing what you can do in a 2WD if you take your time to select the line and approach properly. :)

[Seano]

I just checked the Seikel web site - AUD3-4K (EUR1559) would get you only shocks & springs!!! I would seriously consider custom made adjustable spring perch dampers for this money from someone like Drummond Motor Sport...

I also note Seikel get more "lift" by wheel/tyre selection...as per Maris 8-)



Which is precisely why I never went the Seikel route myself. I hunted up the King Springs, had a yarn to a very helpful person there, had a good look at the T4 workshop manual via ErWin and went 'yep' that'll work. More recently, I worked with a bloke in the UK who had bought a Seikel kit and was happy to impart the details of the diff spacers.....so the jobs all done.

Agree that the tyres are the easiest way to get height and should always be the first resort......but the tyre choice till recently has very limited for the 15'' wheel T4 (with the 16" T5 you have some very knarly off road options!). Coupled with that is the restrictive tyre size rules for registration in some States and the insurance complications that can come with it.

However, once these boots are worn out then I too will likely follow Maris' lead...

[Graeme]

Relevant trivia...

Our very own TJM Products, the aftermarket offroad etc accessory manufacturer and supplier, sells the Seikel kits in Switzerland.

I suggested to their head office that this was an opportunity for their Australian operations. Their reply, from Michael Peters - not interested as not enough VW's are sold in Australia to make it worthwhile.

A bit disappointing as it wouldn't be overly hard for them to virtually duplicate the German offering with King Springs or whatever.

We can blame the Hiace, Vito etc buyers for their poor vehicle choice.

[Mischa]

i know you're a new car man but if you really just want the car for camping and touring then a diesel t4 van could be an option. sell it when you're done and it wont have depreciated through the roof?

[Graeme]

Seems like a good idea...

(1) if you have mechanical expertise to assess these. The UK Honest John website could be read as being a bit scary...

"What's Bad:

Built at van plant at Hanover to van standards, which is basically to run reliably to a high mileage in a short time. Paint and rustproofing not to car standards, though improved hugely after 1996 facelift.

VR6 is a heavy drinker.

Earlier non-TDI models were awful to drive.

TDI's timing belt drives water pump and, if water pump fails, so does belt. Injection distribution pump timing difficult and expensive to re-set when renewing timing belt.

What to Watch Out For:

When buying used, look for rust and paint defects. Best engine is the 5 cylinder 2.5 TDI, but remember it needs frequent expensive timing belt and tensioner replacements, and a new timing belt driven waterpump every 80,000 miles."

(2) if you sensibly want to avoid the truly apalling depreciation. Up spec Multivans are especially shocking.

(3) If you are not keen on maximising safety with lots of airbags, stability control etc etc.

[Seano]

I can only support the latter portion of your post.........TDi T4's are not a good 2nd hand option, especially high mileage versions.

Mainly for the simple reason that service costs are massive......in 100,000km you'll cough up the best part of five grand for servicing!! Add the depreciation to that and the prospect of mechanical failure anyway and you really don't get great value for money.

[Gary]

I'm new to this web site but could do with a bit more info on raising my 2005 T5 4 motion. Mid 2007 we shipped our van, it is a camper with the Frontline conversion, to India where we travelled around then drove overland to France to watch the rugby. Last year we went back and drove it through Africa then shipped it home from Durban.
The van went well with the only major fault was the ground clearance exacerbated by Frontline having their water tank protruding 50mm below the rest of the vehicle.
The advice given on this thread has been very informative especially the detailed info from Seano. I have already emailed Kings Springs who have been very helpful.
However I am not mechanically minded and the knowledge I may have trouble with the cv joints, using the correct packers etc scares me, I would hate to stuff things up and end up with a repair bill that would make my eyes water.
I agree knowing what your vehicle is capable of and driving to those capabilities is important but there are often times where you come upon an unexpected situation that that extra few millimetres would be very handy.
I guess what I need is a mechanic who knows a bit more about doing such a job than myself.
Thanks for any help posted

[4wheels]

Hi Gary,

I'm glad you bumped this thread. I missed it the first time around, probably because it was when I was heading off to Cape Yorke.
I had the King springs fitted, by Pedders, to the rear of my T5 (LWB 4Motion Trakkadu) for this trip because it was a relatively cheap lift (~$350). There was no requirement for rear diff spacers and they reckoned the CV's would be OK as it is really only returning it to the 'empty' ride height. Nearly 30,000Km later I've had no dramas relating to the rear end.
I'd still like to lift the front an equivalent amount, but being struts that is much more complicated and expensive (~$2k). I think it is necessary though if I'm doing any more off road trips, as I have done some damage underneath (front engine tray, fuel cooler, fuel tank straps) by bottoming out.
I'm currently looking for some sort of guard for the fuel tank/fuel cooler area if anyone knows of one.

Brian

[fr73]

Hi,

I have been looking at lifting and adding some protection to my 4motion.

These guys sell the Seikel bits individually and post worldwide. Still very expensive though.

http://www.4x4styling.com/Cars/VW/VW_T5_E.htm
http://www.seikel.de/de/index.php?id=10&cid=300&param=20&lang=2

Brian, how much lift did the King spring give you at the back?

fergus

[4wheels]

Hi Fergus,

I never actually measured it, but it was noticable. I suspect at least 30mm.
I did it because the back overhang looked pretty low especially with the towbar, but now I've mainly had trouble grounding at the front or middle, so I'll have to think about lifting the front if I plan any more big trips.

Brian

[David Morris]

My T4 2003 ex ambo LWB came with pedders yellow HD coil springs & bilstine shocks all round after gutting it for my use I reset the toursion bars on the front lower as they were topping out & stuffing the shocks now the van weighs 2080KG empty left the rear alone apart from replacing the top shock bolts with a beter quality HT bolt as I tow a caravan & other gadgets
Got a lazer wheel align as ambos get a hard life it was only out a fraction of a mm any way .
droping the front & leveling it up mad it ride heaps beter
Not a great fan of Bilstine when its replacement time I will go with Tokoyo a Jap gas shock that transformed my old subaru into a limo & half the price at the time .
I will drive off road with care not just blast through so far got in & out of places that leaves the wife white knuckled traction control with the ABS works well when used with respect & understanding & low gear in the auto just take your time & it works well .
TC :driver::)

[Seano]

Just a word about the Seikel gear.........it is well made and beautifully designed but as we all know expensive to source in Oz. The follow-up to this is the fact that it isn't that special.

The shocks (both the T4 and T5) are simply revalved Bilsteins (which explains the cost) - they are not longer travel shocks!! The new valving is suppose to help vehicle control given the extra ride height but they are not any longer, fatter, bigger or better quality than plain old Bilsteins. The springs are however specially made. The advantage of the Seikel springs is that they likely have far more progression whereas the King Springs are made for extra load...so they are stiffer which means you won't get the same sort of wheel travel. If you use the Seikel springs then you'll need the Seikel shocks but if you use King Spings then the off the shelf Billys/Koni/etc are probably fine...

As for additional underbody protection......I've never had any nor have a felt the pressing need for any. But some parts of T5 underbody do seem more vulnerable that what is under my T4.

Even so, I'm of the feeling that many underbody plates are often more trouble than they are worth.....I have occasionally had the vehicle become caught on obstructions by the underbody bash plates/guards themselves.

[cort1977]

Hi all, I came accross this thread while researching ways of raising the T5.

I have found that Weitec make a kit consisting of spring spacers that can raise the van either 20 or 30mm depending on the kit. East Coast suspensions in Sydney have them for $149.40 per front axle & $136.20 per rear axle. Alternatively, the Birckwerks site in the UK have the kit for both axles at about $230 + postage from the UK.

I am really tempted to get one of these, seems like a bargain in comparison to the Seikel gear.

I wonder if it could be combined with the King Springs and centre diff spacers for an even bigger lift...

[Transporter]

Hi all, I came accross this thread while researching ways of raising the T5.

I have found that Weitec make a kit consisting of spring spacers that can raise the van either 20 or 30mm depending on the kit. East Coast suspensions in Sydney have them for $149.40 per front axle & $136.20 per rear axle. Alternatively, the Birckwerks site in the UK have the kit for both axles at about $230 + postage from the UK.

I am really tempted to get one of these, seems like a bargain in comparison to the Seikel gear.

I wonder if it could be combined with the King Springs and centre diff spacers for an even bigger lift...

That interest me as well, but it would be worthwhile to find someone who used their spacers and done 50,000km + with them without affecting life of the CV joints and the wheel alignment. I also saw in your first post that you are after dual battery system as well. Did you see www.redarc.com.au lately?
And there are some posts in this section of the forum about dual batteries as well.

[cort1977]

Thanks Transporter. By coincidence I actually have a redarc unit in the shed all ready to go in. I've got a six week old boy at the moment so don't seem to have the time to work on the van I used to...

I know what you mean about CV joint angle, I tend to read the 4wd mags and am well aware of the issues in lifting IFS vehicles. I have seen T4s raised with King springs and tweaking the torsion bars that used some spacers under the centre diff and longer bolts to keep the drive shaft angles the same. Maybe that would be an option if the angle looks a bit dodgy.

To my mind a 30mm lift is not excessive in terms of CV joint angle. I will jump under the van and do some measuring of the shafts to find the change in angle. The Weitec kit is TUV certified so if it has passed some engineering checks.

I have pretty much decided to get some spring spacers so I will post up some before and after pictures. I wwon't receive them until Christmas though.

[Seano]

The spacers in the T4 are fitted to the rear diff mounts.....there is no centre diff. They are only necessary if you frequently run the van with no additional load over the rear axle. I ran my 30mm lifted T4 for half its life without the spacers and still have the original CVs after 8 yrs and 145,000 km.

I would imagine the same scenario for the T5's. That said good risk analysis suggests that fitting the diff spacers is a goodly idea.....just not that urgent.

I'm not familiar with the driveline of the T5 but I would imagine that the 4motion arrangement is not dissimilar to the T4 syncro. That is that the vehicle has a bolted on rear diff. The question is whether the main driveshaft to the diff has the same 'flexibilty' that the T4 does (my LWB has three sections in the main driveshaft each with a flexible coupling) and could therefore cope with a slightly lowered rear diff....