2.5 TDI Transporter BPC 2009 info thread

[Greg Roles]

Hi All,

Even though the old forum I used to live on is a lot quieter these days ( as all forums are ) I thought it might help someone else if I posted my findings on a used 2009 2.5 174 BPC transporter I'm fixing up as a local runabout / camper. It would start, and limp along a bit, and apart from the engine was in great condition with a new auto box ( edit - not true! ), tyres, brakes, straight body and pretty good interior etc etc. The auto box seems to be a thread in itself, but so too thanks to all the info I've found on here ( largely thanks to Miro - "transporter" ) and on other forums like Brickyard, it seems that regular fluid and filter changes, along with keeping the box COOL is the key. Anyway more on that later.

The engine presented billowing soot out the engine bay, making a high pressure noise, had a big end knock noise, with a totally clogged DPF, in limp mode, and with oil leaks starting from the EGR valve. It would start and run, but I had it flat bed trucked home, and began getting my head around what I had bought. It has 274 k kms. For the first few hours I had no idea it was 5 cylinders.

Long story short, the EGR valve was 3/4 totally clogged, the alloy inlet manifold was caked in oil blowby and soot buildup ( bitch to clean ) and the exhaust manifold had broken off three studs ( number 1 port and number 5 port both ). It had the typical worn cam issue, obvious by pulling the airbox hose and listening to the pulsing blowback. Vag Com told me the poor engine had not done a DPF regen for 2000kms, and the oil ash was over 40 grams, so decided a new DPF was in order. It obviously needed the usual exhaust manifold and studs, cam and buckets, and god knows what else.

So getting in there I knew it had a funky gates coupler, but took me about a week of research and poking about to realise it has TWO. Even with the front off apart from the radiator etc, getting the alternator off was tricky, so decided to follow the Haynes manual ( absolutely essential ) and will have to go from underneath, first the PS pump, then the alternator. Decided to renew both as the car had no service history, apart from the two quite up to date stickers on the windscreen - probably oil and filter change services! The couplers have some play but were serviceable, but such a bitch to get to, spent the $360 for the two new couplings. I've since worked out you absolutely need the SX400 gates tool set to get the cog type freewheels off, and the more general tool kits may lead you astray, the fitment of the triple spline is vital. I bought the "Sealey" kit out of the UK, half the genuine gates tool set cost. I've read that the cog bearing can seize and ruin things, so if you go down the path of looking at replacing these don't just do the rubber coupler, buy the set, colour of the cog doesn't matter, this is the "2" version of the coupler often referred to as the "euro" one. It's called the "freewheel" in the pic below.

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The next thing that surprised me was there are TWO coolant sensors, one on the bottom of the radiator ( controls dash and warning light ) and one on the engine between inlet one and two above and behind the oil filter housing. It's right up high behind the fuel rails, so to get to it without the engine half apart would be a nightmare, and it seems this is the sensor that plays up. I replaced it just in case while in there. Just be aware getting these at a reasonable cost means out of Europe / UK, so there's the usual 2-4 weeks delivery time. This goes for a lot of specific 2.5 TDI parts and non China tools.

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The glow plug loom and associated wiring had all the outer plastic covering just turn to dust in my hands, so a new loom is on order - again just to be sure. Expect a fair bit of the wiring to be exposed by now, so it may need some new outer coatings. The intake ports were quite covered in sludge, so a good clean and scrape was in order. Amazingly the exhaust ports were quite clean, probably because this poor van has been trying to regen for the last several hundred kms. Getting the broken head studs out with left hand drills or EZI outs whilst still in the engine bay was impossible, so MIG welding nuts on them eventually worked, and I only used WD40 actual penetrating spray for a few days prior, but it did take about 20 nuts and a few hours to get there. I bought a new aftermarket exhaust manifold from Darkside Developments.

The Garrett turbo has a little slop, but nothing bad ( no end to end ), and apart from some reasonable wear on the intake impeller blade surface, seems reasonably service-able. I will keep an eye on it, but it works fine and didn't appear to have leaked much oil over what you typically see. You ABSOLUTELY need long triple square bits to get that last bolt off the turbo, and there's no way to remove it without taking off the rear engine mount first. I sure tried, but no go. There are 6 bolts holding the turbo on. Even my longer triple square bits I bought *just* worked, I'd suggest getting the VAS 3410 longer XZN 10 tool, or equivalent. There's a special tool at every tricky step on this engine!! EDIT - tools shown in post #6 below.

You will need the Transporter timing tool set, and I found the $180Au eBay no name set fine for me. The big top gear clamp and the crank turning tool and timing tools are key items, no way to get around not using them. EDIT - China tool set upper cam tool is crap, you need a genuine one or the one from Taiwan, see posts #33/34!! Rest of kit is fine.

I decided to exchange the waterpump too, and found the eBay pump tools fine, except the no name gear puller is useless, you really need better hooks that go further behind the 4 holes in the gear. I ended up giving it gentle taps with a small hammer till it came loose. The no name pump puller works a treat however.

In a similar fashion to the waterpump, the power steer pump also allows engine oil out if the seals fail, so am in the process of replacing the seal while there, and flushed out the quite black looking PS fluid. Will report back to where I get said "unicorn" seal from. Again a problematic design as it wears, and something to watch. EDIT - Pump is not designed to be serviceable, and I tried to pull the old one apart, but as it was all too hard, just bought a no name one off eBay, and will just keep an eye on the PS fluid colour. My PS fluid levels were fine, but the fluid sure looked grey/black, so the PS internal seal is probably on the way out.
I'd suggest replacing the waterpump and powersteer pump every 100,000-150,000kms just to prevent any drama these can cause if they fail. Both are cheap enough really, unless you buy genuine from Australia, far cheaper out of Europe.

The cam and buckets were well worn, and there was metal in the front of the head below the injectors, some in the oil filter, and a lot below the oil filter in the 90 degree port that feeds the filter from below- was 3/4 blocked!! I did manage to flush a little more out of the engine with a lot of light oil. Sump off tomorrow, so we shall see what's left, and how the oil strainer looks. New oil pump on route from Germany, seems this and the tandem fuel/brake pump are two key areas to recondition / renew on higher mile engines. I'm planning to rebuild the tandem, and replace the oil pump, as oil pressure seems to be a key issue on this motor, but given how much crap had built up in it at key points ( especially below oil filter ) seems it will easily starve itself after some kms and crud buildup. Make sure you do the oil changes on time, and use engine oil flush at higher kms!

Heat seems to be an issue for the auto box, so beyond the fluid and filter I'm fitting a sizable external ATF cooler, always a good idea on auto boxes, just make sure to add a thermostat so it can warm up normally. I think the key will be regular fluid drains and filters, even though you only ever get part of the ATF fluid out.

New forged steel cam is going in, along with new injector seals and a proper "both sides " injector holding bridge - all from Darkside. The cam buckets were VERY worn - quite dished, but none had gone through thankfully. Compression is OK, but not awesome, although doing dry compression on a long sitting diesel motor is far from ideal. Anyway it's not going to do any heavy work, just needs to potter about the local area. Seems you can indeed re-sleeve these, which had me worried for a while, so if need be I'll go the full rebuild down the track. I'd suggest checking the cam and bucket wear every 100,000kms, although these new forged aftermarket cams and buckets should last a lot longer than stock. Again the correct 507 spec oil is essential here.

New injector loom going in, as it's my belief this is one mode of failure on the PD injectors, and might as well do it while in there, the wires are sure quite hard on the old loom. Injectors themselves needed a good tip clean, but with new seals look fine to me. There were no leaks obvious. The tandem pump has a minor leak, so a rebuild kit is on the way from Europe. I'll eventually just get a new one of these too.

Getting to the crank end where you fit the turning tool from either the timing or pump tool set is tricky, I had to cut down a long allen key to get the top two bolts on the cover plate. You basically need a short bent end given the limited space - that is if you aren't dropping the engine.

There are some good video's online of 2.5 rebuilds and repairs ( links in post #7 now ), usually in various european languages, but if you just watch you can learn a lot. Youtube will start putting them in your recommended after you find and watch a few, I'm getting lots of Russian ones now that didn't show up in any searches.

More below.....

[Greg Roles]

A HIGHLY recommended addition is a Provent 200 setup, oil blowby just gums everything up. A place in South Australia "hkbperformence" has amazing Provent sized "ribbed" hoses on ebay in various lengths that allow you to do tight bends that don't collapse, makes fitment all too easy. Brilliant idea. I just buy the over long ones and cut them down.

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So for anyone who has bothered to read this far, the 2.5 TDI is NOT a "standard" engine, needs special tools and engine manuals and would best be serviced by a Euro specialist mechanic or someone with above average skills. This thing is built like a panzer tank, and I expect will be tough as nails once sorted, but will need a good service schedule and sticking to the correct 507 oils and ATF fluids to keep running strong.

Peace out,

Greg.

[Kiels3927]

Thanks!

[jets]

Thanks for taking the time to write all your findings, very interesting. Please keep posting as you continue with the work. Well done.

[Greg Roles]

Apologies for the huge wall of text above, didn't think to take any pictures as posting online wasn't on my mind.

Here's a nice pic to brighten things up of the excellent injector bridge. Not cheap, but vital in my opinion to stop injector toggle and seal wear killing your head! Took me a while to work out how it actually fits, and you need to keep the factory holder on injector number 1. The bridge holds the injectors down evenly on both sides, and is an amazing piece of kit. Had to go to the makers website to work out fitment from their product pics. I bought it from Darkside who surprisingly had zero info, thankfully the bridge has the website of the maker on it.

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There are two crank tools, a small round keyed turning tool, and a big arm and pin into the head tool. The crank turning tool has a TDC mark on it you line up with the block/sump junction facing rearwards, and as the two pins are keyed ( will only go on one way and allow bolt to be inserted ) you already have TDC with that, but you MUST check with the bigger crank and pin tool to make sure you have the CORRECT TDC, as the cam spins half speed!!! This has been my issue at the final stages, when it just wouldn't start, I skipped the pin into head check tool on the final cam install, and just relied on the small round crank turning tool mark!!!! BEWARE!!!!!!!!

The new cam had a notch cut in it at the gear end to show TDC, and so long as cylinder one has the cam lobes in an upright V, then you are on the money, just hold the cam in place with the cam timing tool when bolting it down. Take your time and it's not all that hard to do, just make sure to oil or even better assembly lube everything.

I've read online of people having trouble getting the car to start after cam replacement, and apart from the priming of the fuel pump, I think it's all too easy to put the cam gear back on in the wrong spot, as the cam position sensor references off that gear. I first put it in with the timing mark pointing forwards when lined up with the top of the head, and couldn't think why that would matter till i put the position sensor back in the head and the penny dropped. The mark HAS to be pointing rearwards, I had it 180 degrees out.

I'll be putting the tandem pump back on for now till the repair kit arrives, so be interesting to see how priming that goes.

I've yet to pull the power steering pump and replace the seal, but will do so this week when the second Gates coupler arrives.

I'm into the new transmission cooler, have removed and simply joined the old coolant lines up in the engine bay, was able to remove a few more kgs of pipes and insanely heavy duty brackets from the van. Pretty decent stock cooler, but obviously an external is better in out hot climate.

I have fitted the new exhaust manifold and studs, gaskets etc etc, only the actual turbo is still the old one. Fitting the turbo and manifold was a bit tricky as they are heavy and kind of need to go on together, but if you sit the turbo far back on the lower studs, put the crush gasket and plates in place for the manifold and then slip the mani into the turbo and then onto the head, you can pull the whole thing forwards as one. Just don't do what I did and manage that balancing act then realise you didn't put the exhaust gasket on! DOH. Take 2.

Have had a good look at the removed water pump and it looks in good order, obviously replaced not so long ago, so that was an unnecessary expense, but I did it just in case and piece of mind. I've kept the old one.

[Greg Roles]

So to summarize, the special tools I've needed so far:

2.5 TDI timing / lock set, my $185 China set has been just fine.

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The Water pump set, apart from the puller, no name China set OK, but not great:

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The Auto filler adapter, unsure just how important this is, and it did also come in a auto box pressurised container set I bought:

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And for the turbo, you absolutely need this tool VAS 3410. I bought extended XZN bits, and they still were not long enough:

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For the Gates couplers, it seems the freewheels can fail especially on the earlier engines, so you need the SX400 set to get the freewheels off, and added bonus it has the triple square M10 tool above that will also remove that PITA turbo bolt!! You use the bottom two tools out of this set, this M10 triple to hold the alternator/AC wheel, and the splined socket to undo the freewheel as a whole part. There is no "bolt" and they are both normal thread. Easy once you finally get to them, the Alternator needs the front engine mount loose / removed to get to the lowest bracket bolt, at approx 4 oclock. The top two are easy in comparison at 11 and 1 o'clock. The AC unit is way easier from underneath.

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For setting the PD injector lash you will need a dial gauge, my China one worked fine, you simply need to know the injector compression point:

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When hunting tools / parts, remember the Toureg R5 had the same 2.5 engine, just with different codes, I found the oil pump a lot cheaper under Touareg R5 than Transporter T5 for instance, and they are identical. Shop with care, but if a T5 search isn't working, then R5 is an option. Just an FYI the R5 Toureg has the engine North South "Audi style", as opposed to the typical "Golf" East West of the Transporter.

The BPC seems to have a maddening mix of normal Hex ( Allen key ) Torx, and XZN triple square bolts. Mainly XZN though, so you will need a good set of all those, and to clean out dirty bolts and have a proper look lest you strip something.

[Greg Roles]

And a link to all the videos that have been super helpful:

Elring PD injector service: Elring | O Ring, Pumpe, Düse - fachgerechter Einbau by GÖHRUM Fahrzeugteile GmbH - YouTube (https://youtu.be/eV1kSh3HwR0)

Elring head off: Zylinderkopfdichtung - fachgerechter Einbau - YouTube (https://youtu.be/lhZDS8Q9QgM)

Tandem Pump repair kit: Leaking tandem pump repair, leak fix, (problem solved) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/lv6uqpz9ULM)

Full engine rebuild by VAG Technik UK: VW Transporter T5 with Low Oil Pressure - Full Engine Rebuild - YouTube (https://youtu.be/WZcz7WFy4rk)

A long and home made tools water pump swap: vw T5 2.5 Tdi water pump exchange-how to.. - YouTube (https://youtu.be/veQKndK--uU)

Camshaft and lifters kit: https://youtu.be/M7ypNvgcl-0

Gates coupler freewheel tool use ( normal alternator pulley shown but the same ): https://youtu.be/p52VTAnLptI

And when you get stuck / angry, take 5 mins out and watch this amazing ventriloquist ( and you will get stuck ): https://youtu.be/MIq_vWjjTAI

[Greg Roles]

OK new development today, took the sump off and cleaned it out, was in good shape with very little metal. Hooray!

To get the sump out, you have to undo the rear and drivers side mounts and jack the engine up carefully via the sump, then hold it up with a piece of wood holding the drivers side mount open and apart. The sump then drops off easily, no way to do it without jacking it up, or dropping the subframe.

The oil pickup had free bits of silicon in it from the sealing of the sump, but no metal so happy days. I cut the end off the inverted cone a little to open up the intake, I feel anything at all to get better flow in this engine is a good idea. Obviously I'll have to keep the oil levels on the higher end as I've lost a bit of reserve, but I watch my engines like a hawk ( not THE hawk ).

Then I noticed the windage plate had a chunk roughly cut out of it below cylinder 5!

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At first I thought the engine had dropped a rod or something major, but there were absolutely no marks around cylinder 5 at all. The only mark I could find was some rub marks on the arm of the oil pump. I thought this was weird, so did some research. Was hard to find much, but I eventually put it all together. There were also no pieces of it anywhere, so it's been purposely removed!

Here is how the plate should look.

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Mine is missing the end flap that is unsupported. Seems that this end flaps up and down, develops cracks, and then breaks loose and causes all manner of problems. The T4 crew know all about it.

So tonight I went looking for a new one, and found this on eBay uk. Already on the way out!!

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So I'm glad I dropped the sump, and will replace the baffle plate EDIT I bought a new one and welded some major metal reinforcement on these corners and braced it around the bolts that hold it on, should be far, far stronger now.

[Greg Roles]

Ok just a quick update, things have slowed down as I wait for tools / bits to arrive before full reassembly, looking like next week. I have since drained the auto fluid and removed the old filter, got 5L out, which is something to note as the TITAN ATF 4400 fluid I'm using comes in 4L bottles and of course I only have one, second one on the way. Much cheaper online in Australia than at the shops, weird but there you go, shop around. I used SparesPro.

Fluid was fine and obviously quite new, the two stock magnets had a decent amount of metal stuck to them. I've added a third strong magnet out of an old computer hard drive which should work a treat. Old filter is a simple mesh design, looked fine, but have put back in a temporary cheap filter kit, and will reflush the trans in a few thou kms and put back in a name brand filter set.

I'm almost finished getting all the parts for my external trans cooler, the hoses out of the box are AN 10 ORB females. I'm adding a thermostat controlled valve - probably not required in Australia but just to be sure - and getting AN10 ORB male to 1/2" NPT adapters isn't easy. "ORB" ( o-ring banjo ) AN fittings differ to regular tapered AN fittings, same threads but the sealing mechanism is different, so be aware of that trap also ( see pic below ). Just take the adapters into consideration if you fit your own cooler, the lines out of the box are 1/2" not the usual 3/8" I'm used to. All Enzed could sell me were made up adapters that sadly have thread inside them I have to carefully drill out to get half the seal. The inside of the female ( on the factory cooler ) is 12mm smooth, with an OD metric thread of 18mm. You can buy AN ORB fittings to barbs quite easy, but my thermostat makes it a lot trickier. I should have just stuck to all barbs and made up short adapter hoses!

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EDIT Went to Pirtek this morn, and they too came up with a made up adapter, and that too didn't fit! Pirtek did say they thought the fitting was AN8 ORB, so I may be wrong too, if you do go down this road buy proper AN ORB fittings with barbs before anything else, it's the biggest hurdle to overcome attaching to the factory hoses.

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[Greg Roles]

Well I'm at the point of cranking the engine, but ran out of light / enthusiasm to finish priming the fuel lines. Seems to be quite a few posts of people having trouble getting the engine to start after doing the camshaft / tandem pump, and it would appear it simply needs to be properly primed. I cranked my engine about ten times from totally off, with not a single fire, and on inspection the fuel filter is still bone dry. The Haynes manual states that on each key turn the fuel tank electric pump only runs for a few seconds, so it seems it will take a lot of on/off key work to get the lines and filter, then down to the tandem pump and injector lines primed. I've simply got some diesel and found a decent syringe tonight, and will fill the filter and pump manually, and then draw the fuel up the supply line from the tank. So moral of the story is priming is more involved than you think, and is no doubt what a lot of people stumble over when messing with the fuel system. There's probably a priming adaption in Vag Com too, didn't think of that till just now, might check that out tomorrow.

I've finished my large transmission cooler, but at this stage I've had to take the 12V fan it came with off to get it to fit. I'll make a better job of placing it so the fan can be fitted as well, just to be sure, but for now this will do fine. For anyone else wondering, working out the inlet and outlet lines for the 09G auto box is difficult, and there's stuff all online, took me a fair bit of web browsing to find anything at all. I believe the outlet from the auto box is the line closest the bell housing ( drivers side ) and it has a vertical gearbox bracket. It is also the outer bracket on the single bolt that holds both lines into the box. The return line is further towards the passenger side, and has the inner, horizontal to the ground support bracket. Only matters if you are running a thermostat valve like I am ( probably a waste of time in Australia ) but figured I'd do it right whilst in there. It did make filling the box a piece of cake as I just used a funnel on the cooler by taking the temperature switch out, and the whole 5.125L that came out went back in fine, albeit slowly. Will get it up to temp and do the levels tomorrow.EDIT- my later purchased auto manual shows this inlet/outlet as correct!

Here's the only pics of the lines I could find from a vague self study document on the box, and I assume the dark green outlet shown on the first "golf/passat" box corresponds with the dark green on the 2.5L box I have. I will put a temp gauge in the line, so will quickly work out if this is correct or not!

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Also be aware that the fans will run flat out with the front bumper off, as the wiring for the temp probe ( and passenger headlight ) runs through the bumper. Took me by surprise till I had a look.

I've also read that you must run in a new cam with flat lifters at 2000 - 2500 rpm for the first 20-30mins, idling is apparently the worst thing you can do. Guess you need to keep the oil pressure up or something....anyway that's the plan tomorrow.

[Greg Roles]

Well after doing a LOT of priming, the engine started right up and ran fine, I ran it at 2000 rpm or so for 20mins and it didn't miss a beat. Sure is a tractor of an engine, sounds quite agricultural! Priming the lines was a mission, and I noted the fuel tank pickup pump only runs for a split second each key turn, so you really do need to turn it a lot of times to get an empty line to prime. I used a syringe to fill the lines and filter as best I could, and even then it took like 20 key turns to get it to start! Expect priming to be a challenge when messing with anything fuel related. EDIT You can do this with VCDS - Engine, basic settings, group 035, press on/off button to run lifter pump for 30 second intervals.

I had a few minor coolant leaks to fix, problem when using the old rubber hoses that often split when removing them, had to trim them down to get new rubber to clamp. I'll replace the lot if ever I reco the engine internals.

Something to note, the gates tool set I received has the unicorn long t10 triple square tool you need for that one PITA turbo bolt, so no need to get one individually if you ever get the Gates SX400 set.

I also had one small oil leak from the turbo feed, so decided to take it back off and try again. The turbo does indeed come off easily once you install new exhaust studs, and the studs tend to screw back out as you undo the exhaust manifold nuts, and this allows you to remove the manifold straight upwards, and the turbo the same way, with the rear engine mount in place. Piece of cake compared to the first way with stuck exhaust studs!

Another thing I noted it that there seemed to be no real errors that needed clearing via VCDS. I had read that unplugging the PD loom to the injectors stored errors that needed to be erased. Went looking but apart from a basic dash error there was nothing much at all from the rebuild. I was actually amazed there was no errors showing up on the dash on that first run!

So RWC and rego next, then I'll report on how she drives. On a quick RWC preparation lights check, the low beams sure look dim!

[Greg Roles]

Spoke too early about no VCDS errors, they popped up after a few small runs!

Well some more developments, and a few more parts in the post from the UK. Turns out I have at least one injector down, if not two. Would seem the "tractor" feel my van has, and it's lack of performance is because one or more cylinders isn't doing much. I tried a "diesel purge" you read about online with the Liquimoly can of cleaner you circulate through the fuel rail, and had surprising results, at first I had cylinder one injector maxing out at the +2.99 mg/stroke trim, and after purge, had #4 trim right out as well!

Very odd, but to be fair I was seeing "multiple misfires error" in that first reading, and the trims sure move around a lot from cold to warmup, but it seems once an injector exceeds the 2.99 max positive trim the car freaks out, and it's time to replace or rebuild them, after investigating other possible problems with that particular cylinder starting with compression!

In the below screen shot, Left side was pre purge, right side after ( to be fair measured while running ON diesel purge ) but levels remained the same on normal fuel afterwards. Car probably needs a bit of a drive to relearn injector trim properly, but I bit the bullet and got two used but tested injectors out of Darkside, I obviously need at least one.

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Took me a while to understand all this, but basically positive is bad, as the car is holding the injector open longer to account for a perceived problem in that cylinder, and that can be compression, valve leak, injector, cam issues, you name it. Injector seal and even injector fuel supply / drain can be the issue, and in my T5 they have to be set at a very specific angle, no doubt to get the fuel supply / return ports to line up to the tiny holes in the injector body. Seems anything up to about +1 is normal build variation, and after about 2 you are looking at trouble pretty soon. At +2.99 you get misfire errors.

EDIT: On reflection, I think my WHOLE problem was the injector bore wear and consequent fuel pressure leak, and the probably FINE injectors were maxing out trying to provide adequate fuel. Before you go down the road of buying new injectors, pull them out and have a real good look for injector bore wear in the head, tons of pics coming up below. I feel I wasted $2k plus on recon injectors, when I should have just got a new head first given the bore wear I eventually found. When I wrote this I was super worried about the angle of rotation of the injectors, which does matter, but nothing compared to any fuel leaks from head wear! If the fuel supply pressure to the injectors is low, then how can it function as it should? end EDIT.

The negative values are just the other cylinders being held back in injection to try and smooth the engine out, so those injectors are FINE, and the car is forever trying to make all injectors add up to a zero total ( apparently ). You can see in my odd second post purge result more -3.01 injectors trying to account for the extra +2.99 one. I realise the total now isn't zero, but again the ECU runs negative to try and get even idle, and my car sure shakes a lot. I'd not worry so much about "zero" and a lot more about any injector over +2 mg/stroke. Car still runs and not much changed power wise, but I figure a new injector in #1 and #4 should get the old girl back on her feet. This is something to watch via VCDS/Vag Com under engine measuring blocks, channel 14 being the 5th cylinder.

Tons and tons of posts online with all manner of conjecture, but basically a +2.99 is a maxed out injector, and it may not necessarily be the injector per say, so a compression test in any high reading positive cylinder would be a good idea, and despite my weird outcome, the fuel rail lines in a can of Liquimoly diesel purge plus ( or three cans like me, thankfully on special when I bought them ) can't hurt. Just beware the fuel sure heats up after a while, and the purge plus in my small container I had the fuel lines in was steaming by the time I got through two cans, so I stopped there!

For the record whilst pondering this problem, I decided to check / tweak the problem injector fitment angles, and did get all excited when I measured #1 being different to the rest. Tweaked them to all the same as the "good" ones, and sadly zero change. It did however show me the seal was fine, which on a higher mile engine is a concern, especially how the stock holders make the injectors wear on the other side and even supposedly creates a burr on the head port the injector sits in. I couldn't notice anything, but people have talked about it so it's something to take into account as a possibility. T10210 is the wedge tool. EDIT: I was looking in the wrong place, my head did indeed have these "burrs", I was thinking it happened down at the nozzle hole, not up at the top of the body / bore junction! See post 15 below!!!

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If your loom / injector connection is the issue you won't get a constant reading under channel 12/13, was again a possibility I considered, that I hadn't plugged in #1 properly. Sadly wasn't that simple!

[Syncrotek]

Subscribed.
Thanks for sharing info.

[RobTrans]

Thanks Greg, for in depth explanations. A great reference guide.

I have a ‘09 2.5 6 speed manual (BPC motor).

Currently on 159,000km, had it since 75,000km, hasn’t missed a beat except for standard stuff like driveshaft, stub shaft, egr, water pump etc.

It’s maintained by a guy who has a TDI background and I have been using liquimoly top tec 4200 engine oil with 10,000 interval changes using genuine oil filters.

I need to consider doing the gates couplings, inlet manifold clean and a few other things soon so your info was really helpful.

I normally spend hours researching and sourcing parts then my tdi guy does the rest as I don’t really have any off road parking.

[Greg Roles]

This van had better be a joy to drive in the end!!

The latest.....well, the upside is I'm pretty much going to have a rock solid engine by the end of all this, the down side it the time and money all this has taken!

Anyway to continue the story I ended up with all new ( rebuilt ) injectors, a new tandem fuel pump, and was still having misfires no matter how much I checked and rechecked things. I then gave up for about a week, and started watching random non-english videos until I came across a russian guy who had shimmed his injector bores to stop fuel getting down into the cylinders. He had turned up a bronze plug to account for the injector bore wear on his engine, and that got me to thinking. Can you shim / resleeve a worn PD injector bore? Probably, but so too some of the video I froze showed me the grooves worn into the bore hole opposite the injector holder, at about 3 o'clock. You young'uns may have to google that : ) I decided to pull my injectors for the eleventy millionth time, and low and behold my bores have these very same marks. No idea how I had missed this before, given how many times I've actually had the injectors in and out, but there you go. In my defence there are ring type marks meant to be there, and the wear marks from 2-4 o'clock that correspond to the flares that hold the two o-rings up on the injector body. Easy to overlook till you know what to look for! It's obvious fuel is still leaking around my new injectors via the wear marks in the head. My new injector bridge now holding them dead straight has probably opened the gap up a little more and made it even worse!

First pic shows the bore wear marks in the russian video, second is his shim, third is bronze shim installed. Problem is that only covers the lower seal leak - fuel into the head, doesn't stop top seal loss - into the oil, and that would also drop the actual pressure getting to the injector, which will have to trim up and try to open more, and likely still max out and throw errors!

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Further research and I decided to just accept my losses and get a new aftermarket head. Seems you can stop gap the problem with new seals and things to fill the wear holes for a while, but these all fail pretty quickly and you end up with fuel loss into the oil or into the head, and the injector is under-fuelled as a result. This all leads me to believe I probably didn't need to spend near $2k on rebuilt injectors, as it was obviously the head wear causing the misfire problem. Now the injector body itself can wear too, but as it is a much harder carbon steel, wearing into an alloy head, well it's the head bores that cop the damage.

If you have a lower km engine, NOW is the time to fit the blue injector bridge I've shown at the start of this thread that holds the injectors from both sides, preventing this problem, GLAD I have one!!!!!

SO, for anyone with misfire problems on random injectors, and a higher mile engine, I'd be puling the injectors and checking the injector bore holes in the head. My gut feel is the head is more likely to give out before the actual injectors do - for sure injectors can fail, but with rebuilt injectors costing more than an aftermarket AMC head out of the UK ( cost approx $1800 landed ), I'd be replacing the head and just doing a new seal kit on the old injectors rather than the other way around I just did!! EDIT: The AMC head is made in Spain, and is the head to get, there are China "FAI" heads for about $500 less, and these are probably OK, but it seems the genuine AMC from Spain is the way to go from what I've read. I used Lymm engine parts in the UK, Darkside was WAY too dear on this part ( near $3k for an AMC ).

[Greg Roles]

FYI found two Russian you tube videos that showed up in my recommended feed where they are honing out and re-sleeving injector bores, using liquid nitrogen to shrink the sleeves before fitting.

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[Greg Roles]

There are also tons of Russian videos of re-sleeving T5 blocks, so despite some negative comments on various UK forums about doing this, it seems in Russia it's quite common. My bores look fine, and Plasma is supposedly super low friction, so I'm just gonna run Lucas upper cylinder lube to be safe and not thrash her when she's cold.

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[liangdotchen]

Thanks for your breakdown so far, very informative. Im also looking to replace my cylinder head. Do you know if the AXE head will fit the BPC engine? Ive asked many parts suppliers and they said it will suit my vin number, so answer isnt definite.

[Greg Roles]

Well all I can tell you is both the FAI China aftermarket head and the AMC heads ( pictured ) list both the AXE and BPC in their listings, so I'd say you've a good chance that it's all the same. EDIT - NOT the case, the AXE has a different turbo mounting to the BPC, different gasket and casting!!! Got this info off a Darkside video, so unsure if the "mounting" on the older AXE is just a bolt on component and not cast into the head, but they both have different turbo gaskets, again perhaps just to suit the turbo, but I'd suggest from this info the heads may not be inter-changable at all!!

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[Greg Roles]

Put the new valves in the new head last night ( you need a deep valve spring compressor as pictured, normal one won't suit ), and all my injectors etc have FINALLY arrived, been almost a two month wait on rebuilt injectors out of the UK. Planning a big weekend of engine building at long bloody last, I'm actually a bit excited.

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And... as is the way with these things, I came across the link below today. A T5 remanufacture specialist in Latvia, I've easily spent more than they are asking for a rebuild. I'm sure freight would be a lot, but at least the entire thing is rebuilt.

VWT5ENGINES.COM - REMANUFACTURED VW T5 2.5 TDI AXD, AXE, BNZ, BPC, BLJ ENGINES (https://www.vwt5engines.com/)

[RobTrans]

Gidday Greg,

Re your comment : " If you have a lower km engine, NOW is the time to fit the blue injector bridge I've shown at the start of this thread that holds the injectors from both sides, preventing this problem, GLAD I have one!!!!! "

Is there any chance you could post the exact parts you ordered from Darkside for the injector bridge (maybe the SKUs if you still have the invoice)

Cheers

[Greg Roles]

DSD7192.

Beautiful machining and fitment, but prepare yourself - 350 GBP ( 645ish AUD plus post ). To be fair the actual manufacturer "07eins" in Germany want 399 Euro ( 615ish AUD ) for it....so they are within $30 of each other.

Why this is so important is it stops the wear into the head by the much harder, endlessly toggling injector body only held on one side. Head cost me $2k AUD by the time it got here, so 600 AUD for the bridge is cheap.....

Problem is if you already have the head wear grooves, holding it dead straight will likely raise even more leak issues. 07eins do go into that on their page, and do offer a return if this is so, but so long as your head hasn't done beyond 200 thou I reckon you'd probably be OK. My car is at 267k from memory and the grooves were not terrible, but obviously enough to leak. The pics above of the grooves are WAY worse than mine were, I easily overlooked mine. I've the old head here still, so I'll go take a pic.

Cylinder one, bolt side fine:

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Same cylinder, non bolt side with wear grooves marked:

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I've read a few post from peeps in the UK that said at 170k/190k-kms their injector bores were fine...still it's a worry!

The original PDE bridge for VW T5 2.5 TDI engines
– 07eins (https://07eins.com/en-au/products/pde-bruecke)

[Syncrotek]

I noticed a comment by 'festa' the 2.5 T5 engine experimenter on the T5 UK forum about the injector clamp, but I haven't been able to find the forum post again, but the comment was about enlarging clamp hold down bolt size I ~think~, and some other relevant details, it might help your work (or not) if you had a look for it.

[Greg Roles]

Yeah I did find that very post yesterday, seems an odd decision for as I understand his thinking he just made the clamp on one side stronger, but ended up with cracks in the head. My old head doesn't have any cracks, just the side wear, hence my love of the (pricey) bridge.

Injector Retainer - Has Anyone Installed One? | VW T4 Forum - VW T5 Forum (https://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/threads/injector-retainer-has-anyone-installed-one.1800758/)

That post does mention the fact the PD design hammers the injectors slowly into the head, causing cracks, and on still more reflection perhaps that's what the Russian guy on page two was making up brass shims for, to support the injector body and take the load off the tip end rather than a fuel leak seal.....anyway with the grooves he had, the injectors will sure be trimming up and wasting fuel / diluting the oil.

[rabi]

Thanks for sharing this information it's very useful.

[Greg Roles]

Welcome mate, when I started a few months ago I had trouble finding info on this motor here in Australia, and spent a lot of frustrating time trying to work on this thing. I must have pulled the top end apart 10 times by now. Wasted thousands of $$ too. Endless delays. There are indeed plenty of resources out there on the 2.5/5.0, but they are scattered all over the place, and mainly Euro/Russia/UK, so just hoped to summarize the main things in one place. Even the UK guru's miss things, for instance Darkside did a major powerup rebuild on their T5 2.5, and it was very impressive and well thought out, but then put the stock sump oil baffle plate in, which can crack and fail. Seems a silly thing to overlook in a no doubt expensive 400hp build.

On the upside I now know this engine backwards, and as it's almost all new or rebuilt now, should be pretty reliable.

[Greg Roles]

Amazing you-tube video popped up today, here's a company in the UK that re-sleeves the 2.5 and seems to understand them well.

VW Transporter T5 AXD/AXE/BPC/BNZ/BLJ engine repairs & remanufacturing (http://qcs.wellycreative.co.uk/engine/1/VW-Transporter-T5-AXD-AXE-BPC-BNZ-BLJ-engine)

vw transpoter t5 axd and axe 2.5cc pd 5 cylinder engine bore wear now can be fixed ! - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhB8coNh1ME)

[RobTrans]

Excellent, this thread is a great knowledge base for anyone who owns an ageing 'BPC'

Greg - what was the ballpark $$ amount for those recon injectors ? Could you post a link to the supplier if possible

For anyone who is interested in a BPC performance rebuild video then this is the link to a Darkside youtube that Greg mentioned in an earlier post. A good watch .....

Could this be our MOST POWERFUL VW Transporter engine build? - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v50JALJaEcI)

[Greg Roles]

Rob I just bought the "good, used, tested" injectors from Darkside at 285 GBP - $511 AUD ea ( OUCH ). They have been tested for flows, cleaned, new seals and washers etc, but I doubt there's any rebuilding "inside" them to be honest. I just wanted to eliminate the whole injector side of things, and now I have 5 spares 2-3 of which are most likely fine, I'll get them all checked in time for spares.

Good Tested 2.5 / 5.0 TDI PD Injector with New Seal Kit - 07Z130073N (https://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/good-tested-2-5-5-0-tdi-pd-injector-with-new-seal-kit-07z130073n.html?ref=isp_rel_prd&isp_ref_pos=1)

[Greg Roles]

Found these awesome videos today from Phil at PT Precision automotive, Balgowlah NSW. Seems this poor bastard has been on a parallel timeline to me and my saga, his finished in Dec last year. His customers van had been run on petrol, had fuel clog issues and head crack issues, plus had put a glow plug tip through cylinder 2 and the turbo, still he goes over a lot of the diagnosis steps and just the video of the parts itself is a great resource. What I learnt from it is the fuel rail pressure relief valve, which holds pressure in the rail, something I had no idea was there. I feel his pain.....and like him I've aged a similar amount......still trying to get my f-ing engine to fire right now this weekend, it's a fuel issue now.....and priming the air out against a good pressure relief valve is a nightmare!

T5 transporter BPC R5 2.5L the headache PART 1 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uoeq-TFR2o)

T5 transporter BPC R5 2.5L the headache PART 2 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SMRx5CiMrw)

[Greg Roles]

Jesus H Christ I'm a loser. Spent the weekend trying to prime the fuel rail and injectors, diesel all over me, the car, and half the suburb. No start. A spray of "Start Ya Bastard" with the glowplug unplugged, and she gives a rev. Been pondering this half of today, spent hours re-reading forums, watching YouTube, then finally re-read both the manuals and guess what, the penny dropped, I skipped a step in the timing process in this weekends last cam install check. The small round crank turning tool does indeed have a TDC mark, but as the crank spins TWICE as fast as the cam, you have to THEN check that TDC with the big crank and pin into head tool, if the pin does not fit in the engine mount bolt hole, you have to turn the crank another revolution!!!! I've not thought that through, been skipping the second big tool and pin check, and I bet my left testicle I have the engine to cam exactly 180 degrees out. It's not hitting valves as I'm indeed using TDC on the crank turning tool, but the injectors will probably be firing at bottom of the stroke! Don't skip steps people, nor think you are smarter than the laborious timing process and tools.

To be fair there's quite a debate up on the UK T4 forums about this, and two guys who obviously know the engine well go back and forth as to if you can indeed get the cam 180 out, and I can see both sides to that argument, plus this whole post is just my conclusion why it won't start, could be wrong....but need to recheck the timing!

SO, more late nights pulling it apart yet again because I'm dumb, and thought I was smart.....wish me luck.

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[Greg Roles]

Ok got it half done yesterday, damn work always gets in the way of things!

I pulled my fuel rail pressure relief valve while in there, and it is hard to blow through, so need to investigate that. The videos from PT Precision I posted earlier go into this, but I can't work out the answer, so have asked Phil for help there. Anyone down his way with a 2.5, well he'd be the guy to use as a service centre, IF he's prepared to touch a 5 cylinder ever again!

So far my timing seems spot on, but need to turn it over 4 cycles and keep checking, happening around work today.....I'll run a lap of the industrial complex naked if she up and runs just because I timed it wrong.....stay tuned.

[Greg Roles]

OK I'm back into it this arvo, and have found the problem with the cheaper Ebay timing tools. Here is a pic of the two tools in question, simpler to show them than to talk codes, which are shown in the timing diagram above. I'm calling them the silver crank tool, and the black pin into head tool. You remove one bolt from the side engine mount, the black arm and pin goes into this, again, as shown in the diagram above.

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The crank spins twice as fast as the cam, so you effectively have two crank TDC for every full cam turn. You are supposed to use the silver tool to locate TDC on the crank, then check you have the "correct" TDC with the black arm tool and pin. EDIT: This is keyed but very very shallow pins make it easy to get wrong. If you look at the below pic of the backside, you will see the pins have different distances to the centre. The black arm tool will only bolt in with the much smaller recessed bolt when you have it correct. This tool gives you the compression stroke TDC. How this can be different to any other cylinder 1 TDC is beyond me, but I'm taking the designers word for it. Plenty of threads online where people are confused what "cylinder 1 " actually is, but it is as you would expect, the furthest cylinder from the gearbox, so right over the drivers side on our RHD cars. Front cylinder on the Toureg R5.

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I did read on a UK thread about the "cheaper" tools fitting "both ways" but this was in reference to the upper, cam location tool T10193. EDIT: It sure can. What this means is the genuine, Snap off tool is a tight fit, and only lets you put the cam in the correct orientation. The China tool I have is loose enough that you can get it wrong, and I can't help but think this has been my problem in getting her to fire. Here is a great YouTube video on the differences, in German, but easy to follow. I'm hunting for a genuine tool that's not going to cost me $700......


https://youtu.be/mFu_KMTvMIw

Given the China tool seems quite loose, and short from the measurements in the video above, I looked at mine, and you can see it's rounded off on the lower edges of the keys, shows it allows the cam to be a bit out, even when locked. I've been watching my Torsion values on VCDS ( the relation of cam to crank ) and it's not gone over 3-ish on cranking, but apparently at some magic number beyond 3 it simply won't start ( so I have read ). It certainly doesn't have to be zero, but lower seems better, be that positive or negative. Seems as the timing gear bushes wear, this throws the relationship out and the torsion value grows. The bit I cut out of my cam tool is to clear the much prouder small welsh plug in the AMC head, and I can't get it loose, it's hella tight.

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So for anyone pondering tool purchases, it might be smarter to hire a decent set, I know there are options to hire some of the expensive tool sets at some of the tool shops, so that might be a smarter option, but I then found a Russian video where ol' mate does this, so I might even try that too! Yep piece of steel holding it dead level, his car starts right up when he gets it back together.....

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[Greg Roles]

EDIT: I've edited these posts as I have spent a fortnight going around in circles, and it does seem to be down to cam timing and the issues I have with the China cam locking tool as outlined above.

You most certainly can get the cam 180 degrees out, and as a last resort I simply flipped the cam 180, and also flipped the cam gear to suit the injector lobes. There are 7 notches cut out in the cam gear front plate, these trigger the cam sensor to inject and the correct orientation of the gear is with these lining up with the injector lobes on the cam. Obviously two notches won't align with anything, no doubt these are keys for the ECU to know the cam orientation or something. Anyway if you have the cam to cam gear out of correct orientation these notches don't line up at all. Just something to keep in mind.

Also for reference the "other" cam tool in the timing kit is used on the V10 5.0 TDI, in the right hand side head, with the "normal" T5 transporter tool used in the left hand head. It's useless on the 2.5. V10 pics below:

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[Greg Roles]

With regard fuel priming it seems the transfer "lifter" pump out of the fuel tank should run about 7psi, but the built in filter can get clogged over time and the flow can be down, was one of the problems Phil had from the PT precision videos mentioned earlier, correct pressure but poor flow. The tandem pump then raises it up for the injector rail, and the rail relief valve holds it at 1 bar or about 14psi according to the Erwin VW engine overview. So it makes me wonder how a transfer pump that only manages 7psi can prime a dry head and rail designed to hold 14psi through that valve, will crack it today and see if any bubbles etc comes out......just a FYI. I read endless threads of people spending ages trying to get an engine going again after pulling injectors and introducing air to PD fuel systems. So glad the Yeti is common rail, so much easier when it's all external. Just imagine having to prime a V10 Toureg!!

That pressure relief valve seems impossible to buy too, so glad mine seems to be hard to blow through and thus seems OK. If there is no restriction in this valve, it's had it and you are going to have to get a whole rail from a wrecker.

[Greg Roles]

Lifter pump out of the tank isn't registering any pressure, and has a flow, but very, very poor one. I also note the clip on connectors on top of the fuel filter are leaking a bit, so that will both drop some pressure and possibly add air to the lines. The VF line from the fuel tank is a 6.3 connector, and the VM out to the tandem pump is a 7.89 sized connector, all available cheaply off eBay under "fuel line quick connect", took me a while to work out what to call them. My BPC only has the two connections unlike earlier ones with 4.

Some start ya bastard fluid gave her a rev, so it's down to fuel and has to be cam timing as I've primed the be-Jesus out of it in both cam orientations with no fire.

[gregned]

Thanks for the update Greg
Really appreciate you taking the time to write up your progress, findings and offer helpful tips along the way

[Greg Roles]

Welcome. If I could have found a comprehensive set of answers on the 2.5 engine 4 months ago, I'd have saved a ton of time and money, and be driving the van by now instead of still butting heads with it. I hope it saves someone else.

[Syncrotek]

Hi Greg,
When the tank is down is a good time to add a fuel line to the pump for an auxiliary heater, either coolant or parking, for you or the next owner. I have done that job, its fairly easy.
One other thing - did you notice if the glow plugs are ceramic or metal type ?
All the best.

[Greg Roles]

Good idea, easy enough to do, but not a lot of call for heaters here in QLD. Air conditioner more like it!!

I took out metallic and put back in metallic. Ceramic sounds too breakable!

[Syncrotek]

Yep, although I have stayed at really cold QLD outback places.
That video you linked made me think of the glow plugs.
cheers.

[Greg Roles]

Fair point, OK you sold me, I'll add the extra fuel line and cap it off...and as for glow plugs, I've only ever seen metallic plugs in the three VAG's I've pulled apart...

[Syncrotek]

One more - while the fuel sender is out, (if you have it out still) is to measure its resistances for your records & notes.

[Greg Roles]

Well the new lifter pump is in, dropping the tank wasn't that hard at all. Didn't even jack the car up, just pivoted the dropped tank. Sure am glad I got the cap ring tool to get the outer ring off, it was stuck fast, had to WD40 it and took all I had to crack it!

Extra fuel line is in and capped off to keep Syncrotek happy, and the fuel gauge sender cleaned up and swapped over very easily. Everything had a black sooty coating on it, and the old pump looked pretty dirty, so drained the tank completely and used an old towel to clean out the bottom. Nice to start afresh.

New pump makes a lot more noise, so that's hopefully a good thing, and it primed up hella quick compared to the old one. Gave it a crank and got white smoke, but still no fire, so at least I have fuel now. Will investigate and try and diagnose tomorrow, I have all day to try and get her to start. Nothing left to replace now, so hopefully it's down to something simple. I've asked a well regarded local mobile VAG mechanic to drop by when he can, as I'm at my wits end trying to get this thing to go, so the end of this saga should be nigh. I'm very interested to have him tell me what I'm doing wrong, as I'm all out of ideas, and this would be the first motor out of many, many different types over my life so far that has beat me. You win Germans.

[Greg Roles]

I have edited a number of former posts across page 4 and 5 as I've figured a few things out with the timing tools and got rid of some posts where I was going around in circles.

So I have spent the weekend pulling the motor down to the cam twice, and experimenting with the cam and timing positions. I'm still getting nothing, but a squirt of Start ya Bastard gives her a rev, so it just needs fuel. It's incredibly vexing, but I DID find these posts, one being a fellow Aussie that also had my exact problem, so it HAS to be the cam.

Thread on cam being out 180 ( plus a nice Tandem pump writeup ) - 2.5 TDI AXE not starting after cam install (aarrghh) | Page 2 | VW T4 Forum - VW T5 Forum (https://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/threads/2-5-tdi-axe-not-starting-after-cam-install-aarrghh.1674031/page-2)

My problem exactly! - 2.5 TDI Won't run with cam sensor. SOLVED Timing gear issue | VW T4 Forum - VW T5 Forum (https://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/threads/2-5-tdi-wont-run-with-cam-sensor-solved-timing-gear-issue.1791637/)

As mentioned a few posts back, I'm going to try the Russian idea of a piece of steel keeping the cam dead level with the top of the head, as I figure my cam tool is introducing enough error for the car to not start. I'll start from scratch, reset and lock the bottom end, get the cam dead level, play with the cam gear timing mark position, and then prime it like mad. Fingers bloody crossed.

[Greg Roles]

Still fighting. Took the motor right down to the near bare head, and rebuilt, checking and rechecking every step. Still honestly can't work out which crank rotation is the right one, but am narrowing it down, next effort will be to flip the cam on this current setup, and if still nothing, well it's off to the mechanic, I'm done.

Did find some weird things. On bleeding every step of the fuel lines, I found if you run the lifter pump for the 30sec via VCDS and unhook the return (brown ) line, fuel comes out of the tank via the return!! WTF. There is also the normal pressure in the black VF line as you'd expect, this is very strange. Anyone shed some light on this??? It seems the lifter pressurises both lines???? I had to run the pump, unhook and block the brown return line with my finger to get all the froth etc out of the lines. Also had to bypass the HPFP to get any sort of flow with the lifter through the fuel rail and injectors, I'm getting suspicious on my new HPFP, going to put the old one back on before I swap the cam again, it does seem like something just isn't working as it should. I did take the new HPFP apart and checked it over, but it all seems fine. Even filled it with diesel and carefully bolted it back on, so there's no air bubbles anywhere, but still nothing.

But yeah if anyone can tell me the VW pump should be pressurising the system enough that it gets backflow up the return, then please let me know, does not seem right.....

[Greg Roles]

OK, caught up with family over Easter, my Dad and Brother are good mechanics, and we nutted out the possibilities. Long story short today I am convinced timing is spot on, cam is correct, and there is no specific TDC that matters despite what both VW and Haynes say. I think VW just meant the black arm tool is keyed like the crank turning tool.

I tried the old HPFP but it has the same restriction to priming via the lifter the new one does, so made no difference. Checked new one, seems fine, so it's back on.

Pulled glow plugs to check both TDC and to eject any accumulated fuel and guess what. ZERO FUEL out the glow plug holes despite repeated efforts. Dry as a bone. I've been wasting time thinking it's timing, when each effort shows me everything is spot on, every mark is perfect. Seems I've just wasted time......

Diagnosed this lack of fuel down, and I have a loom signal problem, there is no signal going to injectors, messed with the round head plug and got a brief voltage change to cylinder 1 on cranking, but it appears my whole problem is no electrical signal to the injectors to fire. Might have a loose plug to head or to one injector, as these PD injectors wired in series all drop out if one goes down / has a bad connection. Will mix up old and new injectors, and play with loom tomorrow, but I think I've solved my nightmare. Sure hope so....

[Greg Roles]

Well she's showing signs of life, won't keep running as yet, it's absolutely pumping out the soot from months and months of old diesel cranking and endlessly being pulled apart.....just waiting for the battery to charge back up, the runs are lasting longer and longer, guess it's just air in the fuel lines etc now.....so god damn close.....

Loom problem was in the plug, with injector on cylinder 1 and 2 having dodgey connections, no doubt from me plugging and unplugging it multiple times, had to use a multimeter to check for continuity. Tightened up the female portion of the plug, made sure the male part was straight and hey presto, we have fire.

[gregned]

Really appreciate your hard work and documentation

Cheers

[Greg Roles]

I'm bringing in the local VAG mobile mechanic, we had a long chat, he said he has had drama with the cheaper timing tools and wants to put his genuine set on the car, reckons they are so super sensitive to timing it's not funny. He started out with a copy set, and threw them away after two bad experiences. My van will kinda fire as it is, stumbles but won't actually run, all I'm doing is overheating my poor starter and ripping the life out of the battery, plus I'm giving myself lung cancer with all the soot I'm breathing in the shed!

Will report back when he's had a crack at the timing. Going to drop the tank again and investigate the in-tank lifter pump, as he agrees priming both lines is all wrong, sure seems so to me!

[Greg Roles]

OK been a while but I've still had no luck getting it to actually go.

The mechanics Taiwan "HCB-B1419" tool set ( $1k ) definitely puts the cam several degrees more advanced ( clockwide ) compared to the China tools, but there is a fair bit of freeplay in the China cam tool. This fancy tool set still shows no special TDC on the crank, so I'm at a total loss what VW were on about. Mechanic suggests 5 cylinders is the reason, but the better tool has no specific TDC.

I plan to spend this weekend diagnosing the injectors, as I pulled them recently and three had surface rust on the god damn tips thanks to all the rain we have been having. I wire brushed them back to shiny and penetrating oiled them, but the actual injector holes may be rusted up, so I've got to pull the inlet and see if fuel spray is coming out of each inlet hole. I've three good old injectors so may swap them back in just for ****s and giggles.

I'm still convinced there is something wrong in the fuel circuit given the fact the return line is pressurizing, gonna drop the tank and pull the pump and test it. Still should at least start a bit though. That too makes no sense.

PD injectors and the internal nature of the loom and fuel supply make it hard to diagnose, but I have put my multimeter across all the wiring and checked for continuity. I guess a oscilloscope is the next thing to check they are actually firing.

Probably going to have to send the injectors back to the UK to get them tested, will be the quickest and most reliable way, my VAG mechanic doesn't know of anyone decent who does PD injectors in Australia.

I've got all new stretch bolts so my final step is to pull it down to the head gasket and get my mechanic build it up from there bit by bit.

[Greg Roles]

Well Fook me it FINALLY runs, and it started right up from bone dry injectors once happy.

I've been busy at work / unmotivated to keep slogging it out with this engine, but I DID buy a "smart hook" powered probe tester that has injector pulse and oscilloscope functions, and used this to check all my injectors. They all fired fine when sent various signals, so I figured there had to be something else. My "new" reco injectors had some mild surface corrosion on the tips from all the time they have been sitting, and this led me to think, how are the fuel orifices? I got out my jewlers loupe/monocular and low and behold, half the god damn holes were clogged up, most likely from me brass wire brushing the tips back. I got the finest needle I could find in the missus's sewing kit and poked them all, there's 6 holes in the end of each tip, about half way down the "cone". They are tiny, and even a super small needle point only just went in. I cleaned up all the holes, soaked them in injector purge overnight, and put them back in.

I replaced the injector loom with a cheap China one ( $34 ) just as an added precaution, given how any times I had plugged and unplugged the new VAG one I had put in way back at the start, and thought there may have been a bad connection. I did check continuity with the multimeter and it said all was fine across the plug, but why not for $34. Seems the same as the $150 I got from Darkside anyway!

So in hindsight I reckon I solved some problems, which lead me onto new problems, and all the time the injector tips were surface corroding creating still more problems. Getting decent cam timing tools was no doubt a key part. Anyway it was amazing how easy it started, just cycled the key about 20 times and cranked for 30 seconds and away she went. Got her up to temp, have an oil leak from the crank timing cover to fix and one of the rockers is knocking a bit so I'll go back in and reset all of those when hot, but she is amazingly quiet for what it is, smooth, and happy to rev up. WAY quieter than all the going motors I've heard, hardly any gear noise, must have gotten the lash just right!

SO this ends my journey with this engine, I reckon it will run forever now, it's built like a Panzer tank, but when it plays up, well best bring in an expert and avoid thinking you are as clever as I initially thought I was!!

[Transporter]

I'm glad you've fixed it. Great job there. Yeah, it pays to look after them. I've been very happy with my T5 4mo AXE for 11 year, I wish I've never sold it, it was great van. Pity they don't make them anymore.

[Greg Roles]

I'm glad you've fixed it. Great job there. Yeah, it pays to look after them. I've been very happy with my T5 4mo AXE for 11 year, I wish I've never sold it, it was great van. Pity they don't make them anymore.

Nice to hear from you ol' mate, yeah it's been the most challenging engine I've ever come across, but thankfully now all I have to do is maintain it. At least the struggle has left me quite educated on this engine, so I do know it backwards. Keeping it cool, and swapping the oil a lot is my plan!

[Greg Roles]

Finally ready and washed for RWC.

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[Silver Caravelle]

Excellent effort Greg. Now enjoy driving it!

[JimmyFingerz]

Excellent thread! Very informative. Thanks Greg!!
As a VW hobbiest, I too have worked on a few engines in my time, but this VW 2.5 BPC is next level! There have been many, many FML moments ... and that was just on the strip down before I had even gotten access to the cylinder head. :-)
I was in the process of doing a Darkside cam replacement + injector seal replacement + head gasket replacement on my 2008 Multivan (2.5 BPC 4-Motion 6 Speed manual) and found this thread by chance. I bought my van in April 2021 in the middle of COVID. I bought it knowing that it had issues (typical tapping noise cause by dodgy cam/cam followers). The body was in really good shape and I needed the 4-Motion as it will be doing light-offroading-camping from time-to-time. My young kids absolutely love this van, so once they'd driven in it, not-fixing it was NOT an option.
So glad I found this thread when I did, as my van is high-mileage (350000Km's). I had cleaned my cylinder head and had not even noticed the scaring/wear on the injector inserts/holes as Greg pointed out. I'll include screenshots of all injector slots (sequentially) from RHD-drivers-side to passenger side (when I get a chance)
Interestingly, the original lower-end engine (block/sleeves/top-of-pistons) all look like they're in great shape for a vehicle with this much mileage. That is obviously just my novice opinion and there could well be more sinister bits hiding internally. That said, the van drove really well and was very smooth, even with the cam and cam followers stuffed (only one of the cam followers was worn through).
So now, I need to decide whether to take a chance with the old cylinder head or bite the bullet and order a new AMC as Greg mentioned.
As mentioned in this thread, getting parts in the Sunshine Coast-QLD is either dealer or order-via-Europe. I order most of my stuff from the UK/Germany, so my progress on this might be a little delayed.
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[Greg Roles]

Welcome to the old forum, glad this has helped, apologies for slow reply, only check in from time to time.

I'd suggest the AMC head over the China FAI, not from Darkside though, they are a bit pricey compared to other UK suppliers, but unless you can get someone to push in some metal liners there's not much other option. I considered liquid steel and running the injector bridge to prevent toggle, but to be honest I don't want to have this god damn engine apart again for quite some time, still have PTSD because of the experience!! I have my old head and injectors if you want to see if someone will machine up and press fit some steel liners!

Interesting to hear your cylinder bores still seem good at 350k!!

Please feel welcome to add any info or experiences you have to this thread, for if I had found a comprehensive post like this before I started, I would have saved a lot of time and money, and probably have more hair still!

[JimmyFingerz]

Thanks for the info Greg. PM sent .

[Greg Roles]

Double post

[OziBeerMan]

549755497654977
We bought this a few months ago. 2009 4 Motion with the 2.5 Turbo diesel. After reading your story I'm hoping as hell it's been serviced properly. Has a full service history, 1 owner, 180K klms. And it wasn't cheap having already been converted to a camper.

[Greg Roles]

Should be fine, these things are like a Panzer tank when going, you just need to watch for the common issues:

Oil and water mixing ( water pump leak ), airbox back pulsing ( cam wear ), exhaust manifold leaks from warping / cracking, and if ever you take the cam out, I'd consider the injector bridge to hold those toggling injectors still! Keep the auto gearbox cool if you have one and do partial fluid and filter changes often! Keep up your engine oil changes, and given the dodgy plated bores I'm running Lucas upper cylinder lube each tank full.

My van is going like a trooper now, but given how much is new in my god damn engine bay, you'd expect that!

[hotballs]

Hello Greg. Thanks for writing such a comprehensive summary of your experiences.
I have to replace the cam and lifters on my BPC motor too. At the beginning of your post on page 2 after replacing the cam and lifters you state you had to prime the fuel line. was this because you did some removal of the fuel system that is required to access the cams? And you also stated that it fired up and ran , noisy but ran. A few pages further you couldnt get it to run again, so i am just wondering what the time line was?
cheers

[hotballs]

I also read a bit about priming the lifters. Can you explain what this is and if its necessary on this engine?

cheers

[summersky]

I’m in the process of changing the water pump and oil cooler and noticed serious amount of oily gunk built up on the intake manifold and on the intakes in the head. What’s the best way to clean the intakes on the head without removing it?
https://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2023/03/47683df5088ae9ff2a3c41a4279d2b7e-1.jpg
https://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2023/03/dccd92c54f65f39396e9fae7cbc9d3db-1.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Greg Roles]

For a cam swap no fuel priming really necessary, just don't let the side mounted tandem fuel pump drain entirely. If it does, fill it back up with diesel best you can once back in place with a syringe or something. Air can be a pain to purge from the injector system, so simply avoid adding any as much as you can.

I had multiple issues at the same time, a straight cam and lifter cap swap should be straight forward, just make sure you line the old cam notch up with the head, drivers side with the lobes up at 10 and 2 o'clock, take pics, and put the new cam in exactly the same way. Timing is bloody everything.....

[Greg Roles]

I’m in the process of changing the water pump and oil cooler and noticed serious amount of oily gunk built up on the intake manifold and on the intakes in the head. What’s the best way to clean the intakes on the head without removing it?
https://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2023/03/47683df5088ae9ff2a3c41a4279d2b7e-1.jpg
https://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2023/03/dccd92c54f65f39396e9fae7cbc9d3db-1.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'd start with lots of degreaser, and use a scraper and then oven cleaner on the really baked on / can't reach stuff, only leaving it a few minutes tops, not the 10-20mins for an oven! Sodium Hydroxide reacts quickly with Aluminium and makes Hydrogen gas....

[summersky]

Thanks Greg. I ended up using degreaser and a pressure washer for the intake and throttle body after scraping as much as possible.

As for the inlet ports on the head, lots of scraping and rubbing with a rag wet with thinners. Not perfect but certainly better than before.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Greg Roles]

Time to block or reduce that EGR, and add a decent catch can, even a China Provent 200 is better than nothing, I find only a thin, dry coat every year with that. Still needs a clean, but it's much easier.

[summersky]

Time to block or reduce that EGR, and add a decent catch can, even a China Provent 200 is better than nothing, I find only a thin, dry coat every year with that. Still needs a clean, but it's much easier.

They’re next on my seemingly never ending list. Though the catch can seems easy enough to fit. After some brief research the EGR delete/reduce seems there’s more to it with regard to the ECU…

Anyone on here that’s on the Gold Coast that can help?


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[Greg Roles]

They’re next on my seemingly never ending list. Though the catch can seems easy enough to fit. After some brief research the EGR delete/reduce seems there’s more to it with regard to the ECU…

Anyone on here that’s on the Gold Coast that can help?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Get a blanking plate with at least a 7mm hole in it. That lets enough through to not throw an EGR error, but significantly reduces the amount ingested. If it throws a light remove it, disconnect the battery for at least half, and redrill it out to 8mm, then 9mm. 7mm was the minimum on my old GT TDI at 2.0 L, and I know you can buy 7-10mm hole ones on eBay, or even just make one yourself. Matters not what end of EGR inlet pipe you fit it. The EGR has to be happy for it to do regens of the DPF, so it needs to be error free.

[JimmyFingerz]

This is just a note to say a massive thanks to Greg!
After 9 months + of my Multivan being up on jack stands, several $$$$ having been spent at Darkside and 07eins amongst others and most importantly of all, Greg's meticulous details and information in this entire thread ... I can now confirm that my Multivan has been roady'd, rego'd and back on the road. Man-o-man, the kids love this vehicle.
Best of all, she fired up first time thanks to all of Gregs great instructions!
For a 360K Km vehicle, she runs strong and smooth and is an absolute pleasure to drive.
As she's a 4 Motion, I've decided I'm going to go with a light UK Swamper style setup. I've fitted 245/65/17 on Amarok alloys and I'll be ordering a lift kit from Transport HQ in the next month or so.
So, as I currently stand, in order to get her running again, I've done the following::
- New head gasket, cylinder head bolts, cam replacement set + bolts , injector seal kit (Darkside)
- New injector Bridge (07eins - what a magnificent piece of engineering)
- New VITON injector seal kit (07eins)
To say this BPC engine has tested my knowledge, patience and amateur mechanical skills would be an absolute under statement ... but I can say I know it a little bit better now :-) .
Thanks Greg!

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[Greg Roles]

This is just a note to say a massive thanks to Greg!
After 9 months + of my Multivan being up on jack stands, several $$$$ having been spent at Darkside and 07eins amongst others and most importantly of all, Greg's meticulous details and information in this entire thread ... I can now confirm that my Multivan has been roady'd, rego'd and back on the road. Man-o-man, the kids love this vehicle.
Best of all, she fired up first time thanks to all of Gregs great instructions!
For a 360K Km vehicle, she runs strong and smooth and is an absolute pleasure to drive.
As she's a 4 Motion, I've decided I'm going to go with a light UK Swamper style setup. I've fitted 245/65/17 on Amarok alloys and I'll be ordering a lift kit from Transport HQ in the next month or so.
So, as I currently stand, in order to get her running again, I've done the following::
- New head gasket, cylinder head bolts, cam replacement set + bolts , injector seal kit (Darkside)
- New injector Bridge (07eins - what a magnificent piece of engineering)
- New VITON injector seal kit (07eins)
To say this BPC engine has tested my knowledge, patience and amateur mechanical skills would be an absolute under statement ... but I can say I know it a little bit better now :-) .
Thanks Greg!


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Glad I could help, and that my often frustrating misadventure could help someone else along the way, the whole point of the thread. My engine has been perfect since, and it runs like clockwork. I'm now trying to get the notorious auto to the same point, and no doubt will be a bit of a windy path, but I am persistent if not overly smart!

Thanks for the post, and sorry to be so slow to reply, I should bloody log in here more often!

[Greg Roles]

Finally into a bit more my scene when it comes to engines....time for some fun stuff!
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Used two x 2.25" 90 degree alloy elbows, two silicon joiners and clamps, and just cut the VW swaged end off the factory pipes. Had to trim the elbows, but talk about a perfect fit. The intercooler dimensions are 2.25" ( 57mm ) in / out, 550 x 230 x 55mm core. Just needs a bracket. All up cost about $400! I'm changing the current trans cooler to a wider, less tall one, as this fat intercooler takes up a lot of room towards the top, and the trans cooler pictured fouls the top edge of the bumper below the grill.

Replaced my dodgey looking radiator while in there with a quality China one, again about $300.

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[JimmyFingerz]

Looks good Greg. ��
I'd be interested to know if you find the find the new intercooler makes a noticeable difference, in which case, I'll be sending you a PM for more details :-) .

I reckon I'll need to pull my front bumper off again anyway as I think my aircon radiator might be leaking.

[Greg Roles]

Hey mate, an intercooler won't be felt, beyond a really hot day anyway, it just helps keep the intake charge more dense overall. I've no doubt it flows better, but this was just part of a plan to upgrade the inlet and exhaust path in a bang for buck style, and maximise the standard setup. I took to the front bumper with a hacksaw after fitting my smaller but wider trans cooler, and have some grill stuff to put over it, I'm sure it will keep the trans far cooler now. It also looks more Fast and Furious, even though it isn't.

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I'm replacing the middle massive muffler with a straight through Magnaflow, and an running 2.5" all the way to the back axle for now. When I have the time I'll fab up the remainder to the back bumper in 2.5" rather than the very odd sized 2.3" stock.

[Greg Roles]

If ever a car deserved this....my favourite mod to date.

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[JimmyFingerz]

Hey Greg. I reckon having that much extra air flowing through should keep her running really cool. ��

[Greg Roles]

On trying to adapt my gearbox yesterday I drove around an industrial estate endlessly for near 50kms, and my peak auto temps were 83 degrees!

[Greg Roles]

Well to close this thread, after a year of having the van running quite well ( around gearbox issues - now also fixed ) I've only driven it a tiny amount and only been on two proper long weekend camping trips with wifey. As much as I love it, I'm just not using it enough to justify the third car, and with other home plans requiring $$ have sadly decided to sell her off. The back fitout is almost as involved as the engine, and is a thread in itself, but someone is sure going to get a fully overhauled van!

So this ends my 5 cylinder chapter, and am glad that at least my time and expense has helped others with their own 5 cylinder journey!!

[Syncrotek]

Quite the ride it's been Greg, good on you for sharing the info, keeping up a thread like this one also takes a lot of time and effort,
Many Thanks.

[Dave BPC]

Hi Greg.
I’m the UK and very much appreciate your efforts to detail your engine build/work/diagnostics and links.
I’ve had mine since new and now with 270k miles on it.
I felt obligated to post my thanks for your detailed post.
It’s given me much more confidence in my engine.

[Greg Roles]

Hi Greg.
I’m the UK and very much appreciate your efforts to detail your engine build/work/diagnostics and links.
I’ve had mine since new and now with 270k miles on it.
I felt obligated to post my thanks for your detailed post.
It’s given me much more confidence in my engine.

Welcome Dave, wish I had a resource like this from the start, glad to help others. They are a solid machine overly engineered in a few areas, with a few fatal flaws you need to keep an eye on. Knowing what I know now, I could run one forever with preventative maintenance, but the process of getting that knowledge has left me a bit PTSD when it comes to the 2.5!