Has anyone raised a T5.1 in Queensland and put AT tyres on (all legally).

[transparu]

Friends – and anyone else:

Has anyone raised a T5.1 in Queensland and put AT tyres on (all legally)?

I have a T5.1, MY12, LWB 4motion with locking diff and 132kW engine. I had it converted to a camper when new. We are very pleased with it except for its ground clearance. (After driving T3 for 30 years I was most disappointed with the clearance issue.) I’ve already made an engine bash plate and am working on one for the fuel tank.

I’m looking for people with Queensland experience in raising the vehicle and interactions with authorities and would appreciate hearing from them.

I also want to put AT tyres on the vehicle as I have found gravel roads have chewed up tyres in the past – the latest being a set of Goodyear 215/60 R17Cs.

The Trakka ORP vehicle has the Seikel lift kit (which gives +30mm). Alternate wheels and tyres give further lift and I assume there is probably a speedometer recalibration involved as well.) VW Germany issue a NOC (No Objection Certificate) for the lift kit, thus indicating it is not a “problem” modification.

I have spoken to Trakka and their vehicles meet the ADRs. This means they must be acceptable in Queensland. Queensland actually modifies the ADRs in places for their own reasons. It is hard to work out how to get through the ADR/Queensland issues, at least without a risk of failure.

I have looked at it and think I would do a local emulation of the Seikel lift kit using King Springs and Bilstein shocks and get 30mm (but would be pleased to go a bit higher).

I am writing this after speaking with an experienced fellow who does vehicle compliancing, an engineer with a lot of lowering/lifting experience (though not on VWs) and an excellent wheel/tyre technician. The problem is that none has experience with these issues on a Transporter, though plenty with 4x4 vehicles. I have also read a lot on this and the UK forums.

That the 4Motion is NOT a 4x4 but a “soft-roader” makes a difference in Queensland. Queensland Transport allow a 50mm lift. This can be EITHER via suspension OR by tyres/wheels but NOT by a combination of both.

The compliancing fellow commented that the case of the T5 is arguable and reasonable. It is a commercial van, it has 4motion, a locking diff, is promoted by VW as an off road vehicle, and there are commercial VW-accepted mods similar to those I am wanting. On top of this, the stock VW has a rather low clearance, unsuited to off-road situations.

The tyre fellow would not fit new wheels and appropriate AT tyres to my van because this would increase the rolling diameter too much. He WOULD put them together, balance them and sell them to me if I pushed but he would not install them because that makes him responsible for taking the vehicle out of compliance (making it un-roadworthy.) Personally, I do not want to drive an un-roadworthy vehicle, conservative non-risk-taker that I am.

There IS a form (Form F1854 CFD) issued by Queensland Department of Transport. A quote for this:


This form is to be used when applying for approval to modify a light vehicle (a vehicle with a Gross Vehicle Mass (GVM) or Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM) not exceeding 4.5 tonnes) in a way not provided for in an approved code of practice.
For modifications to heavy vehicles (vehicles with a GVM or ATM over 4.5t) please contact the National Heavy Vehicle Regulator (Welcome to the National Heavy Vehicle Regulator website | National Heavy Vehicle Regulator (http://www.nhvr.gov.au)).

This application is to be completed by the person modifying the vehicle.

Modifying a vehicle, using or permitting a modified vehicle to be used without approval from the Director-General, Department of Transport and Main Roads is a breach of the Transport Operations (Road Use Management) Act.

Whilst the form says simply that is should be submitted by email, I have read elsewhere that there is an (unspecified) charge to do so. There is also the question of who”the person modifying the vehicle”.

I am very interested to hear whether anyone else has faced this issue in Queensland, and “won”, so to speak, or has experienced/knowledge of these things.

Thanks for bearing with the epistle folks.

[Bryn23]

I've gone through this process to see if i can legally lift to 50mm to My T6.

The Transporter is NA classed so it can be lifted in QLD.

As for the combination, of one, but not both is in regards to a vehicle with ESC, which mine has it as a M17 model, but i don't believe yours has ESC.

So you don't apply to this ruling, look at your Vehicle Class it should be NA.

I have to use the Form to install the Seikel with BFG KO2's 225/65/R17 for a lift of 48mm as i have ESC, haven't done it yet as i'll fit out my camper first before fitting the Seikel suspension and then submit the form before tire purchase.

Trakka are secondary manufacture, so they can put what even they want, as long as they have tested it..

Ring QLD Transport and ask for their Vehicle modification teams number, Those guys seem to be on the ball, and then ring again next week after to make sure that the answer is the same.

[Bryn23]

Tyres and Rims
Alternative Rims and Tyres
Many vehicle owners like to replace the vehicle’s original rims and tyres withalternatives of different width, diameter and profile.
The following sub-sections outline the legal requirements for replacementrims and tyres fitted to a passenger car or derivative, or to an off-roadpassenger car (not including a light commercial vehicle), which will ensureyour vehicle continues to comply with Queensland legislation, while allowingfor your individual preferences.
For a passenger car, passenger car derivative or ‘soft roader’ (an all-wheel
drive vehicle that may be certified as MC ADR category), the overall diameter
of any tyre fitted must not be more than 15mm larger or 26mm smaller than that of any tyre designated by the vehiclemanufacturer for that model.
The overall diameter of any tyre fitted to:




a 4WD passenger vehicle specifically designed for off-road use (MC ADR category other than a ‘soft roader’);

a 4WD goods vehicle and its 2WD equivalent if the chassis and running gear are essentially the same as the 4WDversion (N ADR category); or

medium weight goods vehicle (NA2, NB ADR category);
must not be more than 50mm larger or 26mm smaller than that of any tyre designated by the vehicle manufacturer for thatvehicle. Tyre diameters of a vehicle fitted with Electronic Stability Control (ESC) may be modified without certificationprovided it is not combined with any other lift (i.e tyre and suspension, tyre and body block, etc).

[Bryn23]

The black bold applies to you and the Red applies to my T6

So legally, you can self access up to a lift of 75mm, 50mm suspension and 50mm on the tires (remember you only get 25mm height lift from a 50mm bigger tire.

See page 10 on form G19

Vehicle standards instructions (Department of Transport and Main Roads) (http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/safety/vehicle-standards-and-modifications/vehicle-standards/vehicle-standards-instructions.aspx)

[Bryn23]

Also Seikel, only go as high as 30mm and thats with Diff Spacers as lifting the Transporter increases the angle of the CV joints, leading to early failure.

The key thing is to confirm if you have ESC (or ESP, VW term on the ESC), which i don't believe the 5.1 does.

[Sunny43.5]

I am glad its you two who are doing this by the book , I by now would have given up done what I wanted and to hell with the consequences . Lets face it there are so many examples of bad conversions out there on the road that I see every day and they are still on the road .
The Police and Qld Transport inspectors are more concerned with other matters than a van that's a few mm out of spec . As long as the van is not six feet off the ground or slammed to the bitumen chances are that you will drive for the life of the van with no problem. Naturally if what you do leads to an event where someone is killed maybe that will different , it would take a major incident for an investigation to pinpoint that your mod caused the incident .
I have been pulled over several times in both of our T5s random breath test etc and not once did the police say a single thing about the fact that my work van is clearly running on Holden one ton ute wheels with Holden centre caps !

Recently I was pulled over on the M1 at Eight Mile Plains in my wifes T5.1 , I came up behind the Highway patrol car as he was pulling back onto the road after booking someone , I slowed to allow him to enter the lane but he hesitated and let me pass . Then as he got behind me on came the lights etc , I pulled over and as he comes up I ask what was wrong was it because I attempted to let him merge before me I ask ? No he stopped me because I had semi blue DLR's on the van and that was not allowed . Apparently after 5 years with those on the van this was the only time I had been stopped, guess what then happens well he walks around to the front gives the van a look over comes back and tells me to change those DLR's and does not even give me a ticket for which I thank him . Well if he had bothered to look seriously at the van he would have noticed the van was lowered quite low probably non standard wheels and way way outside of legal tinted windows but what he did not see was two front tyres nearly bald as a babies bum ! I was in fact on the way to Keith4 Wheels to get four new tyres fitted and this policeman did not see them , so you can see that you maybe overthinking the problem you have .

[Bryn23]

It's all bloody red tape and it can be confusing.

Thats why i ring QLD transport at least twice to get the same answer.

What makes me really laugh is that we have all these ADR's, so we have to have airbags and such and such, yet i'm free to drive a old kingswood with drum brakes.

Also i can go out and buy a Motorbike, or a Moped on car licence with no seatbelts or airbags... .. am i safer on a motorbike or in a van with with slightly bigger tires....

[Sunny43.5]

Exactly Bryn I used to be an Authorised Officer for Qld Transport for around 20 years and often attended conferences that they hosted . Some of the rules and regs were unbelievable , one of the strangest things was when I first applied all I was required to have for seats and seatbelts and child restraint fittings and mods was a certificate of trade for ten years . As a motor trimmer we were always dabbling in seats etc so I decided to get on board legally and I was given my certificate without any testing all I had to do was to prove I was a tradesman with ten years experience and show receipts for purchasing the relevant copies of the ADR's . Over the next 20 years every few years they would renew my certificate , by the time I had mine for the twenty years they had given me without any testing or qualifications dozens of modification certificates that I was no where near qualified for . So from humble seat belts child restraints and seat mods I could certify engine and gearbox changes camper van and motor home conversions V8 engine transplants into 4wds etc and many others not even relevant to what I was capable of !! I let my license expire back in 2002 as I got out of the trimming game and sold my business .

[transparu]

It's all bloody red tape and it can be confusing.

Thats why i ring QLD transport at least twice to get the same answer.

What makes me really laugh is that we have all these ADR's, so we have to have airbags and such and such, yet i'm free to drive a old kingswood with drum brakes.

Also i can go out and buy a Motorbike, or a Moped on car licence with no seatbelts or airbags... .. am i safer on a motorbike or in a van with with slightly bigger tires....
Bryn, thanks very much indeed for all this. I'll digest it all when I'm off this phone and on a computer again. Your most useful information has saved my remaining hair from being pulled out.
I'll certainly make a couple of calls to Qld Transport armed with appropriate information.
Thanks again . . . I suspect I have a bit of talking to do in the next week or so.


Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[transparu]

Sunny,
MOST interesting. The way I'd interpret most of this is that you were trusted!
I somehow doubt someone getting into the game these days would find things as easy.
Thanks for sharing your story with us all.

Cheers.




Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

[hoddy]

Friends – and anyone else:


I also want to put AT tyres on the vehicle as I have found gravel roads have chewed up tyres in the past – the latest being a set of Goodyear 215/60 R17Cs.



I get a small lift by using 235/60/17 's = gives u 1/2 an inch lift, wider tyre for sand, more accurate speedo!

[Sunny43.5]

Yes it was so easy to get an Authorised Officers Cert back in those days , one of my apprentices who worked for me for nearly ten years eventually started his own shop and found it almost impossible to get his cert even though he had the same qualifications as I had . I will admit that as the years went on we found some of the mods got more and more complex and to save some time with developing methods we used to employ a certified civil and mechanical engineer to check some of the stuff . We were doing conversions to 24 seat tourist buses fitting luxury reclining seats and seatbelts etc so safety and ADR regs had to be by the book .

[Bryn23]

I checked through my documents the number for QLD transport engineering should be 07 3114 5844.

If not, the QLD transport should give there number if you ask for them.

[Bryn23]

Yeah sunny, the day of doing your apprenticeship and learning for 10 years is not enough now, you need a degree in engineering as well.

I find that these days, if you need to do something, it has to go through 2 professionals to sign off on it.

And thats why every thing is getting expensive for the everyday man.

They brought in a new rule start of this year, that if you have a car with knee airbags, you are now unable to to have it disarmed for disabled hand controls, as you could in the past, so instead of using a set that is $2400 fitted it is now $7500 for a knee airbag compliant hand controls.

for a start, its hard enough on the pocket for people with disabilities as there are a lot of other expenses, just to live.

I then pointed out....so if i have no legs, why do i need to disable the knee airbags, as they are of no use anyway......no answer to that.. rules are rules:facepalm:

Also lets not forget almost every car before 2013 has no airbags...

I'm only 37, but i miss the days of common sense..

[transparu]

Thanks Bryn - you're doing too much for me, though I do appreciate it!

[Sunny43.5]

Yes bryn you are right there needs to be an overhaul of the rules for disability issues , we had two disabled children so doing access lifts and seating and restraints systems was part of our work in my old business . What used to p me off was that if I converted our vans 3 of them over the years I should by all rights have fitted child restraints as the category changed with conversion . Naturally I had plenty of arguments with Qld Transport about the stupidity of this one , but you are right the cost to do disability controls is spiralling out of control . There needs to be changes for those situations , lets face it in some vehicles you can use a key to turn off the passengers seat front airbag if you are carrying a child in a special seat so why not the knee airbag . Have you considered putting in a dispensation to Qld Transport for you own conversion as I am sure it would be taken seriously , lets face it $7.5 k is no laughing matter that money above a normal set of controls is better spent on your needs rather than complying with stupid regulations . Oh and don,t stop there hassle the crap out of your Federal and State Member as well , worked for us recently when we had a huge blue with Centre Link . Those idiots wanted proof our daughter who has been severely disabled since birth was not able to get employment .

[Bryn23]

Yeah Sunny, 7.5K isn't a laughing matter, luckily for me the MY17 Transporter doesn't have Knee airbags, the Multivan does and has since 2010 i believe.

So that saved me 5K i didn't really want to spend on a stupid rule, i'm sure though if i really needed to i could get a dispensation, as even some of the QLD transport guy's think they are excessive.

But it would be a big ****fight and take a while to get it done.

[Sunny43.5]

Not necessarily so we found our Federal member had our situation sorted out with Canberra in under two weeks , you just need to get onto the right social media like our Federal members Facebook page highlight the problem and sit back and wait for the supporters to make some noise on your behalf . {PS this also worked for us with VW on their Facebook page } shhh didn't hear that from me .

[transparu]

After all of this - and the other "tyre" thread, I find that the Seikel kit (or an emulation of it using King Springs and Bilsteins), will only give me a 30mm lift and I haven't chanced on anything taller. Now 20mm isn't much, but 50mm is a lot better than 30mm, before tyres.
Has anyone raised a T5 by 50mm satisfactorily?

[Bryn23]

30mm is about the limit, then the CV joints start stuffing up due to the increased angle.

That is why Seikel make a Diff spacer to reduce it.

Markee, got 25mm lift at the front and 60mm in the rear, from what i read off his build thread.

Although i can't remember if this was with the King Springs 30mm or 50mm lift springs, Markee will be able to tell you, check out the size of the tires he has on it, they crazy and awesome, it looks great.

[transparu]

I've posted in another thread about prices I was quoted for a Seikel lift kit (30mm) from the manufacturer and from Trakka. From Seikel, and based on my VIN, including postage 1716Euro or about $2529 landed. Not sure what duty there may be yet. There would be fitting/alignment on top of that, of course. This includes spacers for the diff and a "distance plate" for steering gear. From Trakka, apparently the same (Desert) kit was quoted as $3,750 including fitting and wheel alignment or $3,000 supply only. Trakka is a long way from where I live.

I ran out of time to do anything about the lift though I had a helpful local fellow in Brendale who would have done a King Springs and Bilstein shocks lift similar to the Seikel one for $2992.6 fitted but excluding diff spacers and steering spacer. Again, about 30mm lift.

In the end, and after a LOT of searching, I have found that I CAN alter the Distance Impulse Number on my T5.1 and so "re-calibrate" the speedometer and odometer. VCDS is the way to go there.

Given that in Queensland the maximum "self assessed" lift due to tyres is 50mm DIAMETER or 25mm radius, I have finally put on a set of Pirelli Scorpion ATR 235/65/R17s. These are 108H rated. This gives 23.5mm lift and whilst my speedo read 4kph high on standard tyres at 100kph, it now reads about 1kph low at 70kph (don't have a 100kph road close to home). I'm satisfied with that for the moment.

The tyres look good. They come a little close to the plastic shroud behind the rear wheels, but I don't see this as a big problem.

I'll report back on the tyres after a trip from Brisbane to Darwin, Perth and home (including quite a few gravel roads).