Suspension for a Mk3 VR6 (options?)

[The_Hawk]

This started in this thread in the Mk3 section debating lowering springs.
http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=10905

I was debating to put this in the wanted to buy section, but then I'm still looking for opinions and options (including if someone has something they want to offload :D ) I'm also looking at something more than just lowered springs, so being a suspension question, this is the best place for it rather than cluttering up a previous thread (any more):



Right now I can stretch to about a grand which should cover a new set of shocks/springs to drop her to a nice level.

In my case it's spirited daily driver with maybe once annual track days (speed off the street type things, not full blown racing).

I want the car lower, there is no question of that, I like that coilovers are adjustable, although reality is I probably wont use the adjustments, still nice to have.


But the questions!

Can you get 2nd hand coilovers? How much would I be looking at? Are they worth it?

Is there a cheaper option that the $2K KW's? Anything closer to the $1k mark?

These for example:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Supersport-Coilover-Kit-VW-Golf-Jetta-MK3-3-Corrado-VR6_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em122QQcatego ryZ33586QQihZ019QQitemZ290191895315QQrdZ1QQsspagen ameZWD2V
Or are you really better waiting and going the KW's?


So whats the go?

edit 1: I've found the supersport coilovers available from Venom Motorsport too, although I have no clue on shipping from them. (http://www.venommotorsport.com/shop/index.html)

[h100vw]

Venom is a reputable supplier in the UK. Supersport coilovers are reasonable quality, a mate of mine had some on his corrado and that handled ok.

My preference for the money you are looking to spend would be Weitec. They do a fixed damping conventional kit with black struts, I had this kit on a mk3 16v and it was really good. You can get that kit landed for sub $1000 from Demon Tweeks.

There is also a top adjustable kit using the same springs but you would just set the damping to stiff and drive it. Not worth the extra. If you try softening them past half way the springs take over and it'll handle awfully.

Don't listen to folk raving on about V2s etc, they may be very nice but can you justify spending half the cost of you car in suspension......

Gavin

[The_Hawk]

I have seen and heard of Venom in my readings and they come across as pretty good. I have also been searching for details on the Supersport coilovers on VR6's and most things I read are pretty positive, about the only negative thing I have found so far is that whent hey are wound all the way down they make the ride somewhat bouncy, although that seems to be not limited to this brand anyway.

I suppose this is where is comes to the hard part for me. On one hand a better brand should mean a better ride, albeit more expensive and without adjustment. Supersports mean adjustment which I will probably not use, but then if I ever change the wheels it would be very handy.

At about AU$850 landed the Supersports do look like pretty good value. Is there any Australian dealers or is import the only option?

Eitherway, poly bushes would probably be a good thing to do while pulling the suspension to peices, where would be a good place to procure those from? Also how much?

[h100vw]

The bushes that wear out on most VWs are the rear wishbone bush and the axle pivot bushes.

IMO
The wishbone bush is best replaced with ones from a TT as they are made of rubber not poly urethane. Poly ones can squeak which gets to be a real irritant.

You could fit poly to the rear axle but again I don't think it's the best way to go.

New std rubber ones would be my preference.

Having done the whole poly bush thing in my youth, I am not feeding you duff info this is from personal experience over the last 15 years.

Gavin

[MattyT]

Don't listen to folk raving on about V2s etc, they may be very nice but can you justify spending half the cost of you car in suspension......

KW V2 FTW!!!!!! :D

And it was more like 1/4 the cost :P hehehehe

[The_Hawk]

I'm considering the Supersports... anyone ever dealt with Venom Motorsport?? They don't list any contact details except a phone number and address, fine if your in the UK, not so great for me.

I can wait till after 8:00pm our time to catch them first thing in the morning their time by phone, but it would have been nice to email them, wonder why they made that choice.

The alternative is to buy from an eBay seller, prices should end up about the same, but I would feel happier buying from a [reputable] shop. So has anyone actually used them before?

[sukebe]

Check this page. I reckon the koni's would be a good option


http://www.mjmautohaus.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=2_6_15_42_151_5093

[The_Hawk]

Check this page. I reckon the koni's would be a good option


http://www.mjmautohaus.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=2_6_15_42_151_5093

The Koni's to look nice:
http://www.mjmautohaus.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=2_6_15_42_151_5093&info=KONI_1150.5001.1_Coilover_Kit_Includes_FREE_N EUSPEED_Sway_Bar&products_id=900

Koni Coilover Kit (Includes FREE 22mm NEUSPEED Front Sway Bar)
They are rebound adjustable too!

The downside of course is that I'm up to ~AU$1,315 before I get a shipping price, that a shade over 50% more than the Supersports cost, mind you that does include a AU$300 front sway bar. Even so, the pre shipping costs work out to be: Koni @ $1015 vs Supersport @ $658.

To be honest, the only comments I have read anywhere is that XX's are better, but not any bad things about the Supersport parts. Is it really suprising that something that costs 50% - 300% more is better? Or that it has more features?

Is there any reason I shouldn't look at and consider the Supersports? I'm all for buying somethign bigger and better, but unfortunately I'm on a budget :(

[DubSteve]

That sure is a good price if you ask me!!! Aaron best thing is to try before you buy cause ultimately you may feel that X product is better than Y product, even if it is cheaper and has less featuers!!!

I have also heard alot of good things with Weitecs like Gavin says, I know alot of the mk1 and mk2 owners in the states use them as choice in preference over more expensive ones and they seem to do the trick, also on a side note you can slam your car super low if you ask me:D

[99gti]

The down side to weitec is the cost to rebuild them - they cost nearly double what it costs to re-build KW's.

Poly bushes are a good thing, just don't go all Arnold Schwartzenegar and go the really hard ones as your car will rattle somewhere on the higher end of the richter scale. If you come today I'll take you for a run in mine wich has had KW's plus (the black) poly bushes throughout. They come from a company called ECS tuning.

[The_Hawk]

A quick and dirty search on Weitec's leads here: http://www.fastvws.com/acatalog/FASTADDICTION_com_Suspension_12.html

They end up being ~AU$1025 + shipping which puts them right along side the Koni's.

I'm going to keep digging to see if I can find any more reviews/experiences etc with the Supersports (as well as opinions from people who have had and upgraded to something else).

Like Steve said, The Supersports really seem to be at a good price which I just can't overlook. At the price they are you would have to go through at least two sets before paying the same as any of the alternatives. The big question is how long do they last! If it's measured in months thats an issue... which is what I'm trying to find out.

On a side note, is Supersport their own company? Anyone know who makes them? Any more details?

[The_Hawk]

I have also found the FK AK Supertech coilovers.
They are listed as the entry level of coilovers for the budget conscious driver. These can be found for as little as ~AU$503 + shipping frin venom or a little more from this mob: http://www.speedbox.co.uk/products/product_list.html?model=11868;type=fk_ak_budget_co ilovers
They are listed as Front and Rear 55-85mm.

It seems to move up to something with dampening adjustment moves the price to round the AU$1,000 or so mark. Mind you the lowering range also increases.

The one negative comment I have found so far on the FK AK "budget" line of shocks is that they can be fairly bouncy and with no dampening adjustment they guy said it was annoying. Still, only one bad comment, and even then I think I would be leaning towards the Supersports anyway :D

The other thing I have noticed on the FK's is that they say you *may* need wheel spacers if running stock wheels. Not 100% how that would effect the wheels I am running... No info is listed on needing spacers with the Supersports. Still digging anyway...



Question on the drop/adjustment listings? Does this mean it drops the car by a MINIMUM of 55mm and can be adjust to a MAXIMUM of 85mm? Or can you wind them all the way up something like the stock level?

[The_Hawk]

Damn England and their time difference, and Damn Venom Motorsport for not answering their phone.

They could at least put a message on their front page if they are holidays, even if it's only for a couple of days.

How this for a nice number, 16 digits in all it's glory!
0011 44 1254820005

I'm trying one more time then heading to bed.

[Golf Loon]

Probably closed till new year mate.

Keep trying.

[The_Hawk]

Got an email back from the FleeBay seller:

Purchase: US$649.90 = AU$744.59
Shipping: US$199.00 = AU$227.99

TOTAL: US$848.9 = AU$972.58

Assuming Venom Motorsports will ship international their shipping price needs to be less than £137 to be the same price (and I'd rather buy from a company than an FleeBayer)

Does Australia really have none of these lower cost options available locally? Seems no from all my research so far...

[MattyT]

Not that I'm aware of. VW stuff is not that common here. There are loads of cheap coilover options for jap-rice and commonbore cars but its because theres the market for em here.

That said tho, I know a mate who had the cheap D2 coilovers in his riced up liberty (300hp :D) and he said they were dodgy and almost dangerous. If he hit bumps the wrong way they would just bouce everywhere, no contact with the road... BAD.

Food for thought.

[Tim]

german car performance are a sponsor here.
has anyone suggested them yet? theyre selling these

http://www.germancarperformance.com/golf-3-vento-racingline-coilover-kit-p-1134.html

[The_Hawk]

german car performance are a sponsor here.
has anyone suggested them yet? theyre selling these

http://www.germancarperformance.com/golf-3-vento-racingline-coilover-kit-p-1134.html

Interesting, very interesting... Do we have a contact there or is it just the generic info@germancarperformance.de email address?

[DubSteve]

User: Mike@GCP :) He is a regular on this forum :)

[The_Hawk]

Excellent, they have three options listed for the MkIII. I've emailed Mike@germancarperformance.de and asked for final pricing and shipping estimates.

[The_Hawk]

Nice and quick reply from Mike, great work!

Has anyone ever used any of the units from GCP?



Here are the prices for the suspension kits:

G3-4121302 Racing Line Coilover Kit Golf 3 Euro € 249.00
G3-4121203 Race Dynamic Coilovers Golf 3 Euro € 359.00
G3-740213 Golf 3 Coilover Kit Euro € 299.00

Shipping of 1 set of coilovers would come to Euro € 145.00 as standard postal shipping.
This would take approx. 3 weeks shipping time.

Express shipping would take approx. 7 business days and would come to Euro € 225.00.

[Tim]

no idea how good they are. But theyre stupidly cheap!

[The_Hawk]

no idea how good they are. But theyre stupidly cheap!

yes, yes they are. There isn't alot of info on the differences between all three:

G3-4121302 Racing Line Coilover Kit Golf 3 Euro € 249.00
Racing Line threaded chassis Golf III, Convertible, Vento, Golf IV Convertible 2WD adjustment range about 40-85mm axle without Variant: VA-980kg, 880kg HA HA VA + adjustable about 40-85mm remark: VW GOLF III, CABRIO, VENTO

G3-740213 Golf 3 Coilover Kit Euro € 299.00
Highgrade suspension kit for 20mm up to 60mm coil-over lowering. Thread adjustment and spring groove system. The range of adjustment gives an individual body lowering. Huge transverse force stress. The initial spring tension survives in complete range of adjustment. The adjustment will happen in built-in status.

G3-4121203 Race Dynamic Coilovers Golf 3 Euro € 359.00
height adjustable on FA & RA Golf / Jetta 3 / Vento Lowering ca. 20-85mm 40% harder then stock dampers!!

In short the more you spend the bigger the adjustment.

Converted:
3 Weeks Delivery
G3-4121302 Racing Line Coilover Kit Golf 3 AU$662.71
G3-740213 Golf 3 Coilover Kit AU$746.81
G3-4121203 Race Dynamic Coilovers Golf 3 AU$847.73

add AU$134.56 for delivery in 7 business days

I think I will be ordering the "Race Dynamic Coilovers" since they have uprated shocks and a greater range for adjustment... Think I will have to go for three weeks delivery though :( Just can't justify the extra expense of a speedier delivery. Just sent another confirmation email to check if these are right for a 01/96 VR6 and if any extra bits are needed to get them in (ie spacers, longer bolts etc etc).

Anyone have any last thoughts before I order them? Alternatively anyone else interested in a set at the same time?? ACT NOW! Time is running out!

[The_Hawk]

Well that was fun, just spent €555.45 :D

And now we play the waiting game some more...

We can call it a race to see what gets here first, the coilovers (and dome bearings) or the strut brace... Let the challenge begin!

[Golf Houso]

I look forward to seeing how your goodies perform, and I think you made the right descision and have successfully stuck to your proposed budget, nice work!

[MattyT]

Good luck sir!

Will you be installing em yourself?

[The_Hawk]

Good luck sir!

Will you be installing em yourself?

TBA... depends on a combination of things including that I get quoted to do it and if I could be arsed on the day :P

I will have to get the whole thing aligned and it the wheels could most likely do with a balance too. So we will see...

[The_Hawk]

The local place has quoted ~$160 to install and align the whole thing, it's barely worth me crawling under the car for that much, mind you I may just do it for fun anyway :D

[Golf Houso]

Jesus Christ thats cheap... I have a friend who has a MK4 GTi who's deadly interested in the same coil overs your being the guinea pig for.

A Mk4 without KW's? Blasphemy! j:

[MattyT]

TOTAL Blasphemy!! j:

$150 installed is dirt cheap. My KWs were $500 to install!

[DubSteve]

Nice work there Aaron I payed $400 installed for mine, but $150 is an awesome price, however make sure that you change the strut top mounts while your there;)

[The_Hawk]

yep, thats what I thought. Will see where we end up in a few weeks.

[The_Hawk]

Shipping from Germany to Australia Post... who have then managed to provide 1 of 2 boxes containing 1 coilover.

The delivery docket looks like it DID say 3 boxes, but then that has been written over in what looks like a 1? Very odd.

Hopefully a call to Aus post in the morning sees the delivery guy find the other shocks in his van and then them find their way to my house. Really trying not to be too pissed off right now.

Edit: Correction to that, the kit was shipped as two separate deliveries since all together the weight was too much. Strange that one turns up without the other, but Mike from GCP has confirmed two packages were sent so we will see what happened tomorrow. :)

Little bit happier knowing that.

[vwthunder]

I think I paid about $140 to get my KW's installed, but did not include wheel allignment.
Still trying to find someone who can do the allignment properly

[The_Hawk]

YAY!!! :D :D :D

Suspension has now all turned up, for no good reason it took nearly a week for both boxes which were sent at the same time to turn up. Strange but at least they are now all here :D

So the car is ready to go in this week to have a few little additions...

- Neuspeed Strut Brace
- New CV Boots
- Coilovers! :D
- Heavy duty front mounts
- Polyurethane bushing kit, rear upper shock mount
- Bushing kit, front control arm, polyurethane
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_5823-1.jpg

Can't wait for some weekend fun!

[DubSteve]

Nice work Aaron I can't wait to see the outcome and compare it to one of the bigger brand coilovers:)

[The_Hawk]

Nice work Aaron I can't wait to see the outcome and compare it to one of the bigger brand coilovers:)

Will be an interesting comparison when it's all in.

This morning I looked at the wheel arches and how much lower I want them to sit... using my high tek system of holding my keys against it then measuring when I got to work...

What I would like turns out to be about 60 - 70mm which would look good from the side... problem is when you get to the front lip and see how low that then gets to the ground and... well yeah... front lips may have to be added to the monthly budget... closely followed by oil pans. A skid plate is really starting to look like a good idea. As it is I can scrape my driveway if I'm not careful, who knows if I will even be able to get into it after this :P Speed humps are going to be fun too, especially at the local club since they are literally like this ../-\.. They are some of the worst I have seen anywhere, full [tall] gutter height with a 45 degree angle. Campbelltown Catholic Club is anyone knows it.

Guidelines for the Mk3 say about 30mm is the max drop before it gets too low... IYKWIM. Looks like it may be a case of drop it [like it's hot] and see :D

How far down is your Steve? How do you go with scrapage on the various under parts? Same question for anyone else who cares to answer.

Otherwise, she is booked in to the local suspension place tomorrow. They have said *hopefully* within the day, although it looks more like it will be two to get all the CV boots and suspension done. While it's all apart I might get them to look at the steering too as I think the power steering pump is on it's way out or one of the arms are bent slightly... hopefully something bent, or even better, something just out of alignment.

[DubSteve]

Interesting Aaron, if you think about it because my car is super low, and after I remove my fender flares and roll my guards I feel that I may be sitting lower than what I expect cause I will turn it a few more notches.

I have no problem with the oil pan I sometimes get a scrapage on my exhaust when I have 5 people in the car and going down a deep desent in a carpark but thats about it. The lip you will scrape it everywhere I travel side ways on angles and I still scrape. The best advice I could offer is to go as slow as possible when doing this. WOW 30mm is not much I am not sure how low mine is but I would say possibly around 40-50mm mybe lower can't be entirely to sure.

To get a realistic height difference, this is when I had my 928s on my car and Mrk_Mickeys car next to mine.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/S7300101-1.jpg

You will notice a difference straight away.

[The_Hawk]

Sadly she is still in the shop, CV boots are done as are the bushes, tomorrow will see the coilovers and strut brace in and aligned. I tell you I'm not going to want to sleep Thursday night... or go to Work Friday :P

[MattyT]

Oh no, go to work on friday. Just take the scenic route ;)

[The_Hawk]

Oh no, go to work on friday. Just take the scenic route ;)

I catch the train... so even the scenic route is still only about 12 minutes worth of drive... unless I go to the station via Wollongong :D (over Mount Kiera of course)

[DubSteve]

I catch the train... so even the scenic route is still only about 12 minutes worth of drive... unless I go to the station via Wollongong :D (over Mount Kiera of course)

Don't you want to change it up at all? Drive to work it will be such a lovely day :D

[The_Hawk]

Out with the old...
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_5839-1.jpg

Which appear to be 3 stock units and one aftermarket...

Two on the right... stock.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_5840-1.jpg

Notice the two on the left are different, one aftermarket.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_5841-1.jpg

Then there is the Strutbrace:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_5835-1.jpg


http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_5836-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_5837-1.jpg

And the 4 CV Boots:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_5838-1.jpg

Have I forgotten anything??

[The_Hawk]

The Old:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_5694-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_5699-1.jpg

The New:

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_5824-1.jpg

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_5828-1.jpg


Just a smidge closer to the pavement:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_5833-1.jpg

[peedman]

How do u rate the ride quality now aaron? Ive got control arm + front sway bar bushings plus rear sway and new tie rods ordered just gotta have enough cash for some coilovers.

[The_Hawk]

Dinner at mums place sort of put a damper on a good test drive... that and I want a bit more room than suburban streets allow to really test the setup.

Ride is a little rougher, but still very nice, steering is much sharper, it really feels like it's hanging onto the road that much better too.

As the kit settles I might wind it up a few turns, but we will see how it goes... For the moment I am walking up to unlock the door and am aiming about 3 inches too low :P It's amazing how low it is sitting compared to before.

On a side note, what I don't have is a tool to wind them up and down. I assume the tools are a pretty generic part?? yes? Any ideas where I would get a decent quality one and how much?

[Mrk_Mickey]

Wouldn't they send it with your coils mate? Most coilovers tend to have that little claw-loooking tool that they use for adjustment..at least when I've gone around countless places on the net looking around, they all have references to the tool thingo with the set

[MattyT]

Is dat sum BMC CDA I spy??

Your ride looks pretty slammed now, nice work!

My KW's came with said tool. It doesnt appear that special. I know Tein sell ones seperately, perhaps ask some rice workshops?

[The_Hawk]

Is dat sum BMC CDA I spy??

Your ride looks pretty slammed now, nice work!

My KW's came with said tool. It doesnt appear that special. I know Tein sell ones seperately, perhaps ask some rice workshops?

BMC... well it's a DRiFT :D Which is basically a BMC rip off. I only paid $169 for mine and it comes with filter and all the bits you need to fit it (except a 3" -> 2.5" adaptor which I bought.

Check out my write up here:
http://www.vwwatercooled.org.au/newforum/upload/showthread.php?t=11822

[DubSteve]

Aaron to wind up the coilovers the best thing to do is jack up the car on the side and then get to the side of the cap to go up and down.

[The_Hawk]

I went for a bit of a run yesterday arfternoon, I specifically picked an older bumpier road and the car went beautifully. Slightly harsher ride, but not as bad as I expected it to be. It's very liveable.

Cornering is much more flat with much much reduced body roll.

On the way home through some of the back streets I took on a couple of speed bumps, by which I mean small mountains. These few have always been bloody huge so I though it would be a good test. Going very slow and even head on I managed to get over then without scraping. I'm very aware of these things so slow down and if it seems huge try it from an angle. Still I wa suprised I could hit these few head on.

Funny thing is after all that on a back residential street I hit a small (almost invisible) dip and got the front bar (I think) to scrape. Only happened twice and not even on the really bumpy bits, seems that big sweeping dips just after a small rise do it.

I'll have to go for another run today and see whats what.

Steve, how do you go with people in your car? I have to pick up a couple of friends in the city tonight and am a little hesitant to do it in the Golf since I haven't had people in it before and don't want to find out the hard way it's going to scrub all the way home.

[DubSteve]

Steve, how do you go with people in your car? I have to pick up a couple of friends in the city tonight and am a little hesitant to do it in the Golf since I haven't had people in it before and don't want to find out the hard way it's going to scrub all the way home.

You won't scrub thats for sure, your wheels won't scrub I used to scrub on my Porsche wheels cause they poked you should be fine. However just take humps and that with extra caution and that, and you should be fine. I have people in my car all the time and its all sweet, I don't scrub with the stock wheels anymore so its good, however with my new wheels there will be abit of body work on them!

[The_Hawk]

Well I took my son for a drive this morning...

Campbelltown to Appin to Picton Road to Picton to Bargo... to Napean Dam then back down the freeway and home.

Everything went very very well. I'm really enjoying the new bits :D

[The_Hawk]

A few weeks on and nothing has been touched, still going very well. I think it could do with a either a couple of threads of raising after settling or some minor modification to the fronts as they are *just* starting to rub on the inside wheel arch plastic bit now.

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_6928-1.jpg

Looking forward to taking them for a spin on Wakefield Park next week.

[MattyT]

Things will naturally settle and wear in. I've found mine are bit softer now and have more or less stopped groaning. Had to wind up the firmess because a little bit of body roll was seeping in round corners :D

[mk3pete]

tell me if im wrong but couldnt help noticing your front is a lot lower then the rear if it is can you adjust that height

[The_Hawk]

Side View:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_6926-1.jpg

and another:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2008/02/IMG_5828-1.jpg

Yes there is a little rake on it, but thats hardly a bad thing ;)

Yes they are height adjustable so it can be changed, but then I like it :D

[mk3pete]

how much did ya pay all up and wher did ya get em from i may willing to fork out some money on mine