View Full Version : Golf mk7: Auto Start/Stop disable switch - who wants to help?
A while ago now, I hosted a short discussion of whether it would be possible to automatically disable the S/S facility on a mk7 when the ignition is turned-on. As those that have this annoying facility will already know, the car doesn't remember the position of the S/S button after the ignition is turned-off and the driver must press the centre console button every time that the ignition is turned-on to re-disable S/S.
I know that it is possible to completely disable S/S with a VCDS tweak, but I was keen to find a mechanism whereby S/S would be automatically disengaged but the driver could re-engaged S/S if he/she so desired at a later stage in the journey.
Introduction
A quick look at the wiring diagram for the S/S button on the centre console (see extract below) suggests that the factory method for the S/S disabling facility is very rudimentary..
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/mq8rioBpng-2.jpg
As is clearly evident from the wiring diagram, apart from the LED circuits for illuminating the S/S button (this illumination occurs both when S/S switch is pressed and when the dash lights are turned-on), the actual S/S disabling device appears to be a simple single-pole, single-throw, momentary switch. It can't be any simpler than that!.
What appears to happen is that the S/S switch shorts to earth the signal from PIN# 60 on the C socket of the BCM (i.e. J519 in the diagram). The shorting mechanism is done through PIN#4 on the centre console switch module:
Preliminary design - Timing considerations
So, according to the wiring diagram above, all that needs to happen to automatically disable S/S every time that the ignition switch is turned-on is to design a circuit that automatically triggers when "terminal 15" is energised so that it momentarily shorts-to-earth PIN#4 on the centre console switch. Doesn't sound difficult- I hear you thinking (and you are correct in your thinking).
But, I learned long ago that it pays to be conservative when designing circuits for applications about which little is known. There are (at least) two problem here related to the fact that I can find no information about the characteristics of PIN# 60 on socket C of the BCM:
I'm not sure how quickly the signal from this pin appears after the ignition is turned-on.
More importantly perhaps, I don't know the electrical characteristics of the circuit inside the BCM that produces the signal at PIN# 60, So I'm blind to the ability of this pin to either source, or to sink voltage traces from external switching sources.
In respect of issue 2, I believe it prudent to provide compete electrical isolation between any external switching device and PIN# 60.
With regard to issue 1, I believe that there needs to be a "delay period" after the ignition is turned-on before the S/S kill signal is sent to PIN#4 on the centre console switch. The objective of this period is to allow the car's circuits (including in particular, the BCM) to stabilise. For the sake of a number, I have chosen 5 seconds as this period (intuitive guess). I've also (intuitively) decided to make the duration of the S/S kill signal 2 seconds albeit I have noticed when I press the centre console button on my car that it's actually the downward press (i.e. negative edge of the switching pulse) that activates the disabling command.
So, using a conservative design approach and based on my intuitive guesses, the Auto S/S disabling device needs to have a timing cycle similar that that shown in the diagram below
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/YfBuZ9Lpng-2.jpg
Preliminary Design - Circuit configuration
The overriding objective in designing an Auto S/S switch is a low component count. There doesn't appear to be much space in the cavity behind the centre console switches, so I'm keen to avoid the need to jam a heap of electronic components into this area. After a few initial designs, and a bit of research, I was able to locate a monostable oscillator that was available from a well known internet provider (the oscillator cost less than $15 AUD delivered). The oscillator can be self triggered at start-up and it has two variable resistors to provide the timing periods for the initial wait (T1) and for the period of the S/S kill signal (T2). All that was needed in addition to the oscillator was a DIL style relay to provide the electrical isolation that I mentioned earlier.
Once the device is fitted (and assuming that it operates as designed), the driver is able to re-energise the S/S facility as early as 7 seconds after the ignition is turned-on, if desired. Else, the S/S facility will remained turned-off and it will be turned-off again at the next ignition cycle.
The full circuit arrangement for the complete device is shown below.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/gxGSbJVpng-2.jpg
As can be seen, installation of the device requires the connection of just three wires. I've taken the Terminal 15 supply (i.e. switched +ve 12Volt) for the device from the neighbouring PIN# 10 on the same switch module that houses the VW S/S disable switch (read post #14 of this thread for a discussion on this matter). Hence the three "take-off' points are from the same switch module - making the task of installation and splicing the new connections easier (only access needed is to the switch model in the centre console). If the vehicle does not have a TCS/ESP button on the centre console, attach the +12Volt (T15) wire to the ciggy lighter power supply wire (which will be Back/Yellow as well)
Please note that the wiring arrangement shown in the schematic above will NOT work if fuse# 40 has been altered to make power to the ciggy socket a permanent 12Volt supply (i.e. the auto S/S disable switch needs a Terminal 15, switched power source to trigger the monostable oscillator and fuse# 40 provides this supply to Pin# 10 on the centre console module).
The physical arrangement for the circuit above is shown in the picture below:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/w77wsi3png-2.jpg
Components
The Auto S/S kill switch requires the four items shown in the picture below:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/cry3fj0png-2.jpg
Other than the Timer (Mono), the items should be readily available at any decent electronics store. The Mono can be sourced from a number of Hong Kong based suppliers as listed below:
eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/233537272654)
Whilst the mono is designed to operate in a number of modes, it is used in this application as a simple delayed one-shot pulse generator with self triggering occurring at start-up. In this configuration, the mono is used as-is without any additional soldering links necessary to the device itself.
Construction
Start by completely cutting-off the 4 legs of the relay on pin numbers 9, 8, 13 & 14 as closely as possible up against the relay package (All the legs on this side of the relay are superfluous and they become a shorting hazard if they remain intact)
Solder the diodes to the pins of the timer as per the circuit diagram. Make sure that the diodes are a snug fit against the Mono and it’s very important to ensure that the diode is correctly oriented so that the “silver band” on the diodes face the Vcc and V-out pins - connecting the diodes in the opposite direction will destroy the Mono!
Solder a short wire across the Earth and Trigger pins of the Mono
Place a piece of double sided tape to the rear of the Mono (see pic below) and mount the relay onto the tape so that it is oriented with the legs facing the Mono pins (notch to LHS as per "back view" pic below)
Solder the Earth and V-out pins on the Mono to the relay and attach the three wires that will connect to the centre console switch
Once the components are soldered together, place the switch on a test bench and adjust the potentiometers so that T1=5sec and T2=2 secs. Hook-up a multimeter (on ohms scale) to the relay out wire to "see" the pulse, or use an LED and 240 ohm series resistor connected to +12Volts.
Slip the soldered components into a sleeve of heat shrink tubing to protect the switch
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/CIyQqm4png-2.jpg
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/BlAq8hlpng-2.jpg
Way forward- Who can help?
Having gone this far, and having constructed an initial functioning unit that works well on the test bench, I'm looking for someone who is willing to install and to trial the device on his/her car. The value proposition for anyone interested in helping-out is that I will provide the test unit for free which they can keep EDIT: Forum colleague Mattaus has kindly offered to help out - many thanks
Cheers
Don
POSTCRIPT: I have designed and built an alternative version of the Auto S/S kill switch that uses a memory module instead of the Mono timer described in this post . Details of the alternative device can be found HERE (http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f197/golf-mk7-auto-start-stop-disable-switch-who-wants-help-108932-post1158347.html#post1158347).
There is also a more sophisticated version of the design for the switch HERE (http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f197/golf-mk7-auto-start-stop-disable-switch-who-wants-help-108932-post1159984.html#post1159984)
mattaus
07-10-2015, 09:32 PM
Very interested and possibly willing to help out if the changes are not too invasive. I have experience and skills in electronics so I'll read you post in full and then post my thoughts :)
EDIT: ...and I'm in Brisbane. Ah, well. Any chance you can provide details on the components you chose? Obviously this design is very simple and simple is usually more reliable. Depending on how big you design is the same thing could be achieved with a micro-controller and a small low power FET allowing it to be crammed into tighter spaces. This of course would require programming which I cannot do, but know people who can.
Regardless I am interested in any progress that you make. I have only owned my GTI a week and I am already forcing myself into the habit of disabling my stop/start system. I have forgotten once sadly :(
Primordial
07-10-2015, 10:41 PM
Impressive circuit design!
Can't this be done with VCDS though?
Snail Style
08-10-2015, 05:41 AM
Why not test to see how long before the signal comes on? Could just pin an oscilloscope into the output wire from J519 to the term 15 relay and one into the pin on the S/S switch to see variation in time.
You could be over complicating things! :D
EDIT: ...and I'm in Brisbane. Ah, well. Any chance you can provide details on the components you chose? Obviously this design is very simple and simple is usually more reliable. Depending on how big you design is the same thing could be achieved with a micro-controller and a small low power FET allowing it to be crammed into tighter spaces. This of course would require programming which I cannot do, but know people who can.
Mattaus: Hi and thank you for your suggestion. One of my earlier designs replaced the electromechanical relay with an N channel MOSFET as you suggested (see below). But because of the complete lack of publicly available information about the electrical characteristics of the circuitry behind PIN#60 on the BCM, I've gone ultra conservative with my desire for electrical isolation between the Auto S/S kill device and the BCM. Maybe, once more is known about the electrical environment, this can be a modification in a later version of the circuit.
And yes, the same device could be constructed using an arduino chip and a few extra components. But I'm not sure that the outcome is any better - it's just another way of achieving the same end and it requires more equipment to construct the device
. http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/876b6WYpng-2.jpg
Impressive circuit design!
Can't this be done with VCDS though?
Primordial: Hi. Not sure that the circuit is impressive, but it certainly is simple!! As to your very good question, as I said in the 2nd paragraph to my post, it is indeed possible to use a VCDS cable to disable S/S. In fact, I have written a set of instructions on the VCDS reference thread that explains how to do this and I have implemented this tweak on my 103TSI (I believe that S/S is the most dangerous thing in the car!).
But, whilst both methods achieve the same end, there is no flexibility of the VCDS approach in that S/S is permanently disabled. With the Auto S/S kill device, the driver will be able to choose whether to re-enable S/S, or to have it remain in the off position. The other advantage of the Auto S/S kill device is that it gets rid-of the annoying "A" symbol with the slash that constantly appears on the dash whenever the car comes to a stop
Why not test to see how long before the signal comes on? Could just pin an oscilloscope into the output wire from J519 to the term 15 relay and one into the pin on the S/S switch to see variation in time.
You could be over complicating things! :D
Snail Style: Hi again. Good suggestion and I probably will get-out my trusty CRO at a later time to try to find-out more about the signal trace on PIN#60. But I'm wedded to my conservative approach to the initial design which I have generally found to be an advantage when it comes to dealing with automotive electronics (it's a pretty harsh environment for delicate electronic components - especially in the early stages of circuit development)
Interesting Timing , pardon the pun.
I've been working on this also while I've been waiting for my car to arrive - hopefully should have the car next week.
I have a prototype built using a NE556 and a PhotoMos relay (G3VM-61G1) + external timing bits.
Also similar timing, I think mine is delayed for about 10secs + 1sec relay on pulse.
Here's my current circuit:-
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/w4Try7E-1.jpg
I'm planning to do it all with SMD components and this is the PCB layout - single sided.
It has the NE556, G3VM-61G1 solid state relay for isolation + smd fuse just in case.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/jsxOcmYpng-1.jpg
This is a picture of how big the PCB will be when I get around to making it, it's about 45mm x 24mm x ~8mm.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/ZnUsIeRpng-2.jpg
I haven't been able to do much more until I get the car.
Like DV52 has said I'm unsure how quickly the switch is "active" and available when the car is unlocked.
With my circuit I could delay the timing easily to 1 or 2 mins by a resistor change.
I've also had to add a lot of external tidying-up circuitry to make sure it's reliable when powering up from a non-perfect power supply but I wont know until I try it in the car.
At the moment I have it make up on a protoboard so I can see how it will work before committing to a PCB.
Interesting Timing , pardon the pun.
.
AJW: Hello again. I'm reminded of the old adage "Great minds think alike" - but let's not contemplate the second part of the saying!!
Sounds like you have done some further thinking since our last discussion and clearly you have much better access to bespoke construction facilities - whereas I've opted for an "off-the-shelf" approach. Just another way of doing the same thing!
Anyhow its good to see that the Start Stop Kill movement is alive and well in NSW
Cheers
Don
mattaus
08-10-2015, 08:57 AM
AJW - looks like you're using Eagle there. Any chance I can get my hands on your files and a BoM? I'd be happy to have a set of PCBs made using OPSHPark (cheap enough that making boards at home is just not worth it anymore) and to assemble a few test units (I have reflow gear).
Actually I'll extend my offer to both you and DV52. Happy to self-build any prototypes you guys come up with.
Primordial
08-10-2015, 08:57 AM
Primordial: Hi. Not sure that the circuit is impressive, but it certainly is simple!! As to your very good question, as I said in the 2nd paragraph to my post, it is indeed possible to use a VCDS cable to disable S/S. In fact, I have written a set of instructions on the VCDS reference thread that explains how to do this and I have implemented this tweak on my 103TSI (I believe that S/S is the most dangerous thing in the car!).
Oops, apologies for not reading your whole post! Carry on :)
Actually I'll extend my offer to both you and DV52. Happy to self-build any prototypes you guys come up with.
Mattaus: Offer gladly accepted - I'll send-up a test unit for you to try
Don
AJW - looks like you're using Eagle there. Any chance I can get my hands on your files and a BoM? I'd be happy to have a set of PCBs made using OPSHPark (cheap enough that making boards at home is just not worth it anymore) and to assemble a few test units (I have reflow gear).
Actually I'll extend my offer to both you and DV52. Happy to self-build any prototypes you guys come up with.
Yes I'm using Eagle to make the PCB. No problems sending up the finished PCB design if you want to make one.
I did the circuit in a separate program so I've only got the PCB layout.
I'll wait until I get my car before I send up the file as I'm not 100% sure it will work yet and I may need to do some mods.
I've sourced all the bits from Element 14 - will give all the part numbers when I know it's working.
My plan was to connect directly across the switch and use the Cigarette lighter socket for power - It seems to be fairly close.
The hope is the Cigarette lighter comes on when then the car is started, then the circuit starts it's ~10secs run to then send a signal for 1 sec to cause the Photomos Relay to pull the contacts of the switch to ground and hence turn off the S/S.
If someone has a car can you check how the Cigarette lighter operates? I know in the MK6 there was a 50min? timer to keep power to some of the circuits, say if you turned the radio on with the key out but door open. I'm not sure what else they might be doing in the MK7. My new car will also have Keyless Entry so again I'm guessing pushing the Start switch is exactly the same as turning the Ignition switch?
mattaus
08-10-2015, 01:12 PM
Yes I'm using Eagle to make the PCB. No problems sending up the finished PCB design if you want to make one.
I did the circuit in a separate program so I've only got the PCB layout.
I'll wait until I get my car before I send up the file as I'm not 100% sure it will work yet and I may need to do some mods.
I've sourced all the bits from Element 14 - will give all the part numbers when I know it's working.
My plan was to connect directly across the switch and use the Cigarette lighter socket for power - It seems to be fairly close.
The hope is the Cigarette lighter comes on when then the car is started, then the circuit starts it's ~10secs run to then send a signal for 1 sec to cause the Photomos Relay to pull the contacts of the switch to ground and hence turn off the S/S.
If someone has a car can you check how the Cigarette lighter operates? I know in the MK6 there was a 50min? timer to keep power to some of the circuits, say if you turned the radio on with the key out but door open. I'm not sure what else they might be doing in the MK7. My new car will also have Keyless Entry so again I'm guessing pushing the Start switch is exactly the same as turning the Ignition switch?
Don is sending me the parts for his design so I'll be able to say what does and doesn't work sometime next week. I am using the cigarette lighter for my initial tests, just to see if the device acts as expected. You are correct that the 12V socket comes on only when the car starts, but I cannot comment on the 50min timer or anything else just yet. From my brief research I know some people have changed their fuse settings so that the 12V socket is permanently powered which will cause issues for your install (but only if you had the permanent 12V mod done). For my permanent install (provided it works!) I'll be using a fuse tap and will install the device in the fuse box.
More mucking around, and more pieces to pull, but it means the 12V socket will function as it does from the factory. This also means that if I ever decide I need permanent 12V source, I can easily change the fuse for that without screwing up my S/S changes.
If someone has a car can you check how the Cigarette lighter operates? I know in the MK6 there was a 50min? timer to keep power to some of the circuits, say if you turned the radio on with the key out but door open. I'm not sure what else they might be doing in the MK7. My new car will also have Keyless Entry so again I'm guessing pushing the Start switch is exactly the same as turning the Ignition switch?
AJW: The ciggy lighter socket (I think that the more PC term for this item is "Power Socket") can be modified to do both functions (i.e. "hard 12V", or terminal 15). See my thread HERE (http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f197/permanent-12v-supply-power-socket-99113.html?highlight=cigarette). But as a factory default, the ciggy lighter is a terminal 15 supply.
Don
EDIT: oops- sorry Matt, you got-in before me
Don is sending me the parts for his design so I'll be able to say what does and doesn't work sometime next week. I am using the cigarette lighter for my initial tests, just to see if the device acts as expected. You are correct that the 12V socket comes on only when the car starts, but I cannot comment on the 50min timer or anything else just yet. From my brief research I know some people have changed their fuse settings so that the 12V socket is permanently powered which will cause issues for your install (but only if you had the permanent 12V mod done). For my permanent install (provided it works!) I'll be using a fuse tap and will install the device in the fuse box.
More mucking around, and more pieces to pull, but it means the 12V socket will function as it does from the factory. This also means that if I ever decide I need permanent 12V source, I can easily change the fuse for that without screwing up my S/S changes.
Matt/AJW: I've had a close look at VW's wiring diagrams for the centre console portion of the vehicle. After piecing together a number of pages, I believe that there could be a more convenient location (than the ciggy socket) as the source for the Terminal 15 supply.
Here's what I have put together from my research (please note that I have removed all other wires from the wiring diagram that I didn't consider relevant to your project):
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/Ee0VB8Apng-1.jpg
As you can see the crucial new piece of information concerns the wire that begins life as a connection to what VW call the Relay for Power Sockets. These aren't the sockets that we call ciggy sockets, but rather this is the relay that supplies terminal 15 supply to a number of take-off points on the loom inside the cabin (for stuff like the internal mirror, air quality sensor and the ciggy sockets - notice the supply to the relay comes from fuse #40 which is the same fuse as in my thread on how to make the power ciggy socket a "hard" 12 volt supply)
Anyhow, the wire of interest terminates on PIN#10 of a 10PIN connector on Switch module 1 in the centre console. In an amazing coincidence, this is the same switch module as the one that contains the native S/S disable switch. How handy is that?
I'm not sure if the pin numbers are shown on the switch module but it doesn't matter because all you need to do is to look for the Black/Yellow wire. Even if your car doesn't have a TCS/ESP button, I'm hoping that the Black/yellow wire is present. In fact, there should be a bunch of other of places where the Black/Yellow wire takes Terminal 15 supply. If you find this wire anywhere in the area where you are working, it's likely to be a Terminal 15 supply.
To confirm the wiring diagram, you might want to check the voltage dynamic on this wire with the ignition switch on/off using a multimeter before you start splicing a new connection
Good luck
Don
mattaus
08-10-2015, 05:06 PM
Don. Brilliant! Certainly sounds a lot easier than what I had in mind. Hopefully the wire is where you say it should be :)
I was going to pull my console apart tonight to have a look in there, but to be honest I'd prefer to do it once and once only if I can help it. Thus, I will wait until I have a unit in my hands to test with. I think once I've seen the parts I will just wire it all up as small as possible; that way it will fit regardless, or not fit all. If that makes sense.
mattaus
08-10-2015, 06:03 PM
OK, so needing to kill time before I headed off to the gym I did go and have a fiddle (stop sniggering in the back).
I'll take better photos (during the day would be a good start) when I do an actual full install guide.
The good news! The pins are marked (forgive the ****ty camera):
19351
And low-and-behold there is a yellow and black wire connected to socket 10. I was unable to test the voltage on this because I did not have a lead for my DMM small enough to fit anything. I'll have to raid my electronics box for something that will work.
Now the switch cluster itself looks like this:
19352
I'm hoping Don's plan involves wiring into the plug that goes into the bottom of the 3 switch cluster rather than the actual S/S switch itself, because bugger me if I could get the cluster apart. I'm sure it's possible but this stuff is fragile and I do not want to snap something 10 day old car just yet!
My thoughts are that there will be no need to pull the switch assembly apart because one of those 10 sockets on the wire harness will surely be responsible for sending the ground signal back to the brains? It's likely obvious from the diagram's Don has already included but I'm in a hurry and just wanted to get this up before I had to leave for a few hours. Hopefully the brains trust will have answers for me when I come back :)
Sorry if this doesn't really tell us anything helpful!
- Matt
OK, so needing to kill time before I headed off to the gym I did go and have a fiddle (stop sniggering in the back).
I'll take better photos (during the day would be a good start) when I do an actual full install guide.
The good news! The pins are marked (forgive the ****ty camera):
And low-and-behold there is a yellow and black wire connected to socket 10. I was unable to test the voltage on this because I did not have a lead for my DMM small enough to fit anything. I'll have to raid my electronics box for something that will work.
Now the switch cluster itself looks like this:
I'm hoping Don's plan involves wiring into the plug that goes into the bottom of the 3 switch cluster rather than the actual S/S switch itself, because bugger me if I could get the cluster apart. I'm sure it's possible but this stuff is fragile and I do not want to snap something 10 day old car just yet!
My thoughts are that there will be no need to pull the switch assembly apart because one of those 10 sockets on the wire harness will surely be responsible for sending the ground signal back to the brains? It's likely obvious from the diagram's Don has already included but I'm in a hurry and just wanted to get this up before I had to leave for a few hours. Hopefully the brains trust will have answers for me when I come back :)
Sorry if this doesn't really tell us anything helpful!
- Matt
Matt: Clearly I have chosen the correct co-inventor. As a well known Jedi gnome once said "strong with this one - the enthusiasm is"!
On a more serious note. Just get hold a couple of sewing needles and shove them into the connector space, attach the multi-meter leads to the bits that stick-out! I agree with your method of approach - better to connect to the back of the switch module.
If you look at my post#1, you will see that the signal wire to pin #4 is black/blue. You should see this colour wire in the rear of the connector loom (on the opposite side to the Black/Yellow wire.
If I could be so bold as to suggest a simple test before you connect the S/S kill switch to the Black Blue wire . Using those sewing needles that I mentioned earlier, pierce the Black/Blue wire with the sewing needle so that the tip goes through the copper wire. Then hook-up the multimeter leads to the needle-end and the other lead to an earth point. With the multimeter on DC volts, then press the VW S/S button and check that you have a short to earth. If you get this short every time that you press the S/S button, you have the correct wire. Incidentally, I have no idea what voltage the multi-meter will read with the S/S switch not depressed - please tell me
Cheers
Don
pipedwho
08-10-2015, 07:08 PM
If you want a simpler install, consider using the pull up resistor on the button into a diode (and series resistance if necessary) to charge up a reservoir cap for the microcontroller supply. The micro and a drive FET should take very little power and the cap should still have sufficient charge to free wheel while the pull-up is being shorted closed.
mattaus
08-10-2015, 08:25 PM
Matt: Clearly I have chosen the correct co-inventor. As a well known Jedi gnome once said "strong with this one - the enthusiasm is"!
On a more serious note. Just get hold a couple of sewing needles and shove them into the connector space, attach the multi-meter leads to the bits that stick-out! I agree with your method of approach - better to connect to the back of the switch module.
If you look at my post#1, you will see that the signal wire to pin #4 is black/blue. You should see this colour wire in the rear of the connector loom (on the opposite side to the Black/Yellow wire.
If I could be so bold as to suggest a simple test before you connect the S/S kill switch to the Black Blue wire . Using those sewing needles that I mentioned earlier, pierce the Black/Blue wire with the sewing needle so that the tip goes through the copper wire. Then hook-up the multimeter leads to the needle-end and the other lead to an earth point. With the multimeter on DC volts, then press the VW S/S button and check that you have a short to earth. If you get this short every time that you press the S/S button, you have the correct wire. Incidentally, I have no idea what voltage the multi-meter will read with the S/S switch not depressed - please tell me
Cheers
Don
Co-inventor? Mate, I'm the guinea pig!!!
Fortuitously one of my failed attempts to photograph the plug numbers shows the black and blue cable of wonder:
19356
So my plan of attack once I have the parts will be to:
Needle in the BY wire and and a needle in the GND wire (pin 1) to test the voltage supplied by the BY wire.
Another needle in the BB wire along with the one already in the GND wire to test for a short to earth. I will hopefully remember to report back the resting voltage.
Attach the S/S device to the 3 needles and see if it works when I start the car.
The switch cluster will be plugged in the entire time. It may be tricky because there is almost no slack on the wire loom, but I'll try my best.
If you want a simpler install, consider using the pull up resistor on the button into a diode (and series resistance if necessary) to charge up a reservoir cap for the microcontroller supply. The micro and a drive FET should take very little power and the cap should still have sufficient charge to free wheel while the pull-up is being shorted closed.
Is this in reference to Don's design, or AJW's? Or am I missing the mark entirely lol?
Matt: I think what pipedwho is suggesting is to create a parasitic (low) power drain into a low loss capacitor from the signal on BCM PIN#60. The capacitor acts as an energy storage device and it becomes a power supply to run both a microprocessor and the FET switch that I posted earlier.
The micro would be programmed to produce the correct timing pulse to short PIN#4 on the switch module. Because the establishment of the parasitic power supply is self regulating for the Auto S/S kill switch, there would be no need for the 5 sec time delay in my design (and the delay in AJW's circuit). The duration of the actual S/S kill pulse would need to be carefully chosen bearing in mind the limited energy in the capacitor (unfortunately the S/S kill signal would also short-out the parasitic power supply - with the diode free wheeling as pipedwho says). Plus there would only need to be two wires in the Auto Kill switch.
What a truely inspired and sublimely elegant suggestion! Pipedwho's idea places the Auto S/S kill switch more intimately into the electrical operation of BCM signal. But the crucial bit in pipedwho's suggestion is (I think) that success of the circuit depends on being able to fool the BCM into believing that the parasitic current drain isn't happening.
Problem is that I just don't know anything about the electrical characteristics of the signal from BCM PIN#60. This is the same problem that exists with both my and AJW's design (sorry pipedwho - this isn't meant as a criticism, its just a statement of fact).
But, I think that pipedwho's suggestion is an intellectually superior and a much better engineered concept (than my clunky design). And it would be easier to install. It just needs more time and more R&D than I have available - but perhaps another forum member could pick-up this baton and run with it?
Fact is that there is no right solution to this problem - there are just different solutions
Don
pipedwho
09-10-2015, 03:34 AM
Thanks dv52 for that description. You're right that someone needs to measure (or find from a schematic) the value of that pull up resistance to determine if it's of low enough value to be useful.
Also, it may be useful to 'steal' power from multiple buttons at the same time. This would both add more compliance at startup, and allow a smaller cap to be used as it's unlikely anyone will press more than one button at a time.
This is one or more extra wires, but they are all coming from approximately the same area making it easier to install without pulling the whole dash apart.
(Just putting this out there as once someone has done this the ease of installation will determine how many people will consider using it.)
Mattaus how hard was it to pull the centre console apart - tried to find a Video but haven't had much luck.
How much room is under the switch assembly?
Also good to know that there might be 12V in the loom close to the switch.
Looks like we should be able to fit it all under the switch.
I know my circuit is pretty conservative but it was designed without knowing exactly what the rest of the electronics is doing in the car.
I also feel better knowing that it has some isolation from the car using a relay in case something goes wrong - my PCB has about $15 in parts, I'm sure the module that it connects to costs more than that.
I even added a SMD fuse to the PCB just to be super careful.
The thing with whatever design gets used is it needs to work 100% of the time.
If under some combination of circumstances, like turning the car off and on quickly, it doesn't work it will be as bad as having to turn it off every time the car is started because you wont be able to trust it's behavior.
Looks like we've got a bit of a team going here so that should help sort it out.
mattaus
09-10-2015, 08:04 AM
Any solution that does not rely on a uC is a better solution in my opinion. Code = bugs, although this would be so simple it'd be a challenge to leave any game breakers in the lines. I know I suggested it but my mouth (or fingers in this case) often works faster than my brain...
Regardless, I'm happy to go with the most robust solution and the one that is the easiest to install. As I mentioned earlier the wiring loom does not have a lot of slack on it. 3 wires should be easy to tap into, any more and you're asking for trouble. I really think you can forget about nicking power from more than one switch because this would require disassembly of the switch cluster. The problem with that is it looks to be very difficult, and even if you get it apart it seems like quite a dense object so my assumption is that there won't be a lot of space inside. I can't even see where said wires would exit.
Mattaus how hard was it to pull the centre console apart - tried to find a Video but haven't had much luck.
How much room is under the switch assembly?
Like any new car it was hard but only because I was super nervous of breaking anything. I did take other photos that were intended for a "How To" but they need to be better. Regardless, later today I'll post a guide on how to get everything apart and just replace the pics with better ones later on.
There is a fair amount of room under the switch but it's a cavity that is not finger friendly. You could easily 'dangle' a module in there but if you drop it I'm not sure how easy it would be to get the module back out...
I know my circuit is pretty conservative but it was designed without knowing exactly what the rest of the electronics is doing in the car. I also feel better knowing that it has some isolation from the car using a relay in case something goes wrong - my PCB has about $15 in parts, I'm sure the module that it connects to costs more than that. I even added a SMD fuse to the PCB just to be super careful.
The thing with whatever design gets used is it needs to work 100% of the time. If under some combination of circumstances, like turning the car off and on quickly, it doesn't work it will be as bad as having to turn it off every time the car is started because you wont be able to trust it's behavior.
I like this mentality a lot.
mattaus
09-10-2015, 08:30 AM
This will do for now. I'll do neater instructions up when I have the test device along with a video instruction if it looks any good.
What you start with and where the clips are all located:
19363
Pulling the gear selector trim. Note you need to pull towards the dash and up as there are tabs on the bottom. Do not pull up and towards the boot.
19364
Just showing you the clips that are holding the trim in pace:
19365
How to remove the bottom trim which must be taken out to get to the tab holding the switch cluster in place. The tabs to the extreme left and right are easy to get out as there is a gap underneath you can easily slip a thing tool under to push the tabs to the doors of the car, and then pull the trim up. The two more central tabs at the bottom are much trickier because the only way you can get to them also tightens them up! I got them out by using the same tool I used on the outer tabs, and 'working' my way towards the tabs, twisty the tool to gently pull the trim upwards. Whatever it does, it works:
19366
This just shows you where the wiring loom attaches and the tab that holds the switch cluster in place from a different angle:
19367
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/attachments/f197/19363-golf-mk7-auto-start-stop-disable-switch-who-wants-help-step-1-jpg
Matt: Looking at this nice picture I notice that you don't have an TCS/ESP switch on your car. Just a suggestion, but instead of splicing the Terminal 15 wire to the Black/Yellow wire, can you insert a mating pin connector into the front of the switch where the TCS/ESP switch would have been?
Don
mattaus
09-10-2015, 06:11 PM
Forgive my stupidity, but isn't the very bottom button on the left hand switch cluster the traction control switch? The one with the car and squiggly lines. Or is TCS/ESP different?
Forgive my stupidity, but isn't the very bottom button on the left hand switch cluster the traction control switch? The one with the car and a squiggly lines. Or is TCS/ESP different?
Matt: Of course that's the correct switch - I must be loosing-it (sorry). The first place that I go blind is in my eyes!!
Don
mattaus
09-10-2015, 07:28 PM
lol, all good! I'm discovering new things on my car every day so I had no idea if you were right or not. At least what I thought was traction control is in fact exactly that :)
Interesting Timing , pardon the pun.
I've been working on this also while I've been waiting for my car to arrive - hopefully should have the car next week.
I have a prototype built using a NE556 and a PhotoMos relay (G3VM-61G1) + external timing bits.
Also similar timing, I think mine is delayed for about 10secs + 1sec relay on pulse.
Here's my current circuit:-
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/w4Try7E-2.jpg
I'm planning to do it all with SMD components and this is the PCB layout - single sided.
It has the NE556, G3VM-61G1 solid state relay for isolation + smd fuse just in case.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/jsxOcmYpng-2.jpg
This is a picture of how big the PCB will be when I get around to making it, it's about 45mm x 24mm x ~8mm
AJW: just had another look at your (excellent) design. It looks like a dual mono-shot configuration with the first timer output being capacitor coupled to trigger the second mono (albeit I'm a bit confused about the need for the 10k pull-up resistor from pin 5).
I am impressed at the extent to which you have conditioned the trigger signal to ensure reliable start-up (both for pin 6 and for the reset pin 10) - and I thought that I was being ultra-conservative LOL! You have adopted a wise approach given the lack of information and the early days in our understanding of the car's electrical environment for the S/S kill switch. It might be possible to refine both our designs in subsequent versions.
The PCB screen and track layout clearly contemplate the solid state FET relay and the current limiting resistor, where as your wiring diagram suggests an electromechanical device. Will you be able to overlay the coil-relay over the PCB tracks on your PCB design, or will you put-in a second set of pads?
Mattaus has promised to provide feedback on my device, but I'm very interested in hearing about your observations (as indeed will be others reading your posts). Please keep us informed
mattaus
10-10-2015, 03:50 PM
I'll test whatever you guys dream up, and gladly pay for and permanently install whatever is deemed the best solution :)
Ralfi
10-10-2015, 05:39 PM
Respect to those participating in this. Taking a risk in tweaking with your new baby, for the benefit of others. Good stuff.
AJW: just had another look at your (excellent) design. It looks like a dual mono-shot configuration with the first timer output being capacitor coupled to trigger the second mono (albeit I'm a bit confused about the need for the 10k pull-up resistor from pin 5).
I am impressed at the extent to which you have conditioned the trigger signal to ensure reliable start-up (both for pin 6 and for the reset pin 10) - and I thought that I was being ultra-conservative LOL! You have adopted a wise approach given the lack of information and the early days in our understanding of the car's electrical environment for the S/S kill switch. It might be possible to refine both our designs in subsequent versions.
The PCB screen and track layout clearly contemplate the solid state FET relay and the current limiting resistor, where as your wiring diagram suggests an electromechanical device. Will you be able to overlay the coil-relay over the PCB tracks on your PCB design, or will you put-in a second set of pads?
The resistor is 100K and I was using it as a pull up resistor, I'll have a look on my protoboard design and cut it off it mightn't be needed.
I was noticing that the second stage timer circuit (the one that drives the relay) could be triggered about 1 in 20 times when I applied a 12V Plug Pack directly to power the PCB.
If I used a switch inline with the power and turned it off/on it always worked.
The overboard design was also to help with this random triggering event and not knowing exactly how the power would come on when the car starts. In a lot of older cars starting the car also dips the supply rail enough that things will reset.
Yes there's a difference in my circuit diagram and PCB layout.
I started with a relay then decided I wanted to use SMD so went looking for a Solid State relay.
On my Protoboard I'm using a Photomos relay that's using a LED (IR?) to make a Mosfet conduct.
They're only good for low current and lower voltages but it should work in this application.
So on the PCB layout I'm using a G3VM-61G1 - normally open solid state relay.
I'm hoping to have my car this Friday so I can check some things out with my design.
Thanks Mattaus for showing how to pull apart the switch cluster, doesn't look too bad.
I was noticing that the second stage timer circuit (the one that drives the relay) could be triggered about 1 in 20 times when I applied a 12V Plug Pack directly to power the PCB.
If I used a switch inline with the power and turned it off/on it always worked..
AJW: Not sure what type of 12V Plug pack that you used, but I've found in the past that the performance of these packs are highly susceptible to the load on switch-on. I suspect that it has to do with the quality of the internal switched mode design, but I've found that some have a notorious high ripple that is injected onto the voltage bus if they are loaded on switch-on. I wouldn't be worried about this aspect of your design.
I considered filtering the power supply pin on my ciruit, but the problem is that for the device to work properly, both our switches need the voltage at the Vcc pin to accurately follow the Terminal 15 rail. If we beef-up or filter the power supply ciruit too much, we run the risk of missing multiple quick starts of the ignition(I think)
Don
Just looked I'd removed the 100K pull up resistor on my Protoboard design anyway.
I guess that's one less component, I'll need to change my PCB layout now.
I think I also saw the second stage random trigger issue on a regulated bench supply.
At least with the design I've got now it seems fairly robust.
I was also looking at supply filtering but realised like you that it stuffs up the power on triggering.
I have got a 100nF cap as on the supply rails for the NE556 - this will also reduce voltage spikes when the output transistors of the timer change states.
There's some good 555 info at this website that has some good reference material.
555 Timer Circuits (http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/LM555.html)
Just looked I'd removed the 100K pull up resistor on my Protoboard design anyway.
I guess that's one less component, I'll need to change my PCB layout now.
I think I also saw the second stage random trigger issue on a regulated bench supply.
At least with the design I've got now it seems fairly robust.
I was also looking at supply filtering but realised like you that it stuffs up the power on triggering.
I have got a 100nF cap as on the supply rails for the NE556 - this will also reduce voltage spikes when the output transistors of the timer change states.
There's some good 555 info at this website that has some good reference material.
555 Timer Circuits (http://home.cogeco.ca/~rpaisley4/LM555.html)
AJW: Great news about the 100K resistor -my philosophy these days when designing circuits is that every component on a PCB needs to earn its place there - there is no room for lazy/idle components !!
Your design inspired me to add a couple of free wheeling diodes; to supress the possibility of negative spikes from the relay coil (getting into the monostable oscillator) and to filter out noise on the 12V rail. I'll update the circuit diagram on my first post later, but I've included the extra components in the physical layout for Mattaus's benefit when he puts the components together. You might want to think about doing something similar to your design.
Yes, filtering the power supply will come at the cost of making the S/S kill device more sluggish. Not sure if a 100nF capacitor will do much to stabilise the supply rail on your board, but I don't think that it will do any harm if you leave it in-circuit. There may need to be some tweaking to my design in respect of power supply conditioning, but I'll wait for feedback from Mattaus.
With my circuit and looking at your circuit too, I've no doubt that they will operate as intended, The real measure of success though will be the long-term stability of the devices with events like the air conditioner switching on/off (causing the 12V rail to fluctuate) and human practices like switching the ignition on/off quickly. I guess a few hiccups can be tolerated, but systemic misfiring is the real issue with both our designs (IMO). But let's wait until the devices are actually installed and trialled
Thanks for the 555 link - good resource!
Cheers
Don
mattaus
12-10-2015, 05:42 PM
OK, so taking the centre console apart a second time was a piece of cake. Literally took me about 30 seconds. I checked; nothing is broken lol.
I fashioned up some super professional needle probes:
19426
First problem I discovered is that the wires VW use are NOT easily pierced. Like, it's impossible without tearing them apart or stabbing yourself in the finger. Thankfully I managed to get a bit more slack out of the wiring loom and just shoved the needles into the back of the plug itself. It's actually a better way to do it because there is zero damage being done :)
Here's a video of my efforts:
https://youtu.be/X17jhW6QAtU
Yes, I had the leads connected backwards. Stupid, but the DMM was actually upside down when I hooked them up and I wasn't thinking straight. Also, I kept calling the bloody button "traction control". You know it isn't, I know it isn't. Let's just put it down to a Monday spent in 6 hours worth of meetings that some bright spark (not me!) decided should start at 8:30am. Oh, and when I was uming and ahing about what to call the blue and black wire, it was because I thought there was a more technical name for it. I guess the best I can come up with is S/S switch wire :P
Anyway, as you can see the voltage I was getting across the switch itself was only 2V. Dropped to zero as expected. The voltage from T15 to GND is 12V when ancillary power is on, and 14.1V when the engine is running. Also as expected. There was a delay in the T15 voltage jumping from 12V to 14V though; probably around 5 seconds. It doesn't budge when you press the S/S button. No video of that sorry.
So all-in-all, nothing we didn't expect?
OK, so taking the centre console apart a second time was a piece of cake. Literally took me about 30 seconds. I checked; nothing is broken lol.
I fashioned up some super professional needle probes:
First problem I discovered is that the wires VW use are NOT easily pierced. Like, it's impossible without tearing them apart or stabbing yourself in the finger. Thankfully I managed to get a bit more slack out of the wiring loom and just shoved the needles into the back of the plug itself. It's actually a better way to do it because there is zero damage being done :)
Here's a video of my efforts:
https://youtu.be/X17jhW6QAtU
Yes, I had the leads connected backwards. Stupid, but the DMM was actually upside down when I hooked them up and I wasn't thinking straight. Also, I kept calling the bloody button "traction control". You know it isn't, I know it isn't. Let's just put it down to a Monday spent in 6 hours worth of meetings that some bright spark (not me!) decided should start at 8:30am. Oh, and when I was uming and ahing about what to call the blue and black wire, it was because I thought there was a more technical name for it. I guess the best I can come up with is S/S switch wire :P
Anyway, as you can see the voltage I was getting across the switch itself was only 2V. Dropped to zero as expected. The voltage from T15 to GND is 12V when ancillary power is on, and 14.1V when the engine is running. Also as expected. There was a delay in the T15 voltage jumping from 12V to 14V though; probably around 5 seconds. It doesn't budge when you press the S/S button. No video of that sorry.
So all-in-all, nothing we didn't expect?
Matt: Well done- I like no surprises!! Also thanks for the video!
The 2 volt DC reading is interesting and somewhat surprising. I assumed that this would be a DC voltage, but perhaps it's actually an AC trace - can't imagine why though given that it's simply shorted out by the S/S switch. Could be that PIN#60 on the BCM needs to see an actual signal form of some sort (rather than a DC voltage) when the native VW S/S switch is not closed (only guessing). I'm glad that my design uses a relay contact rather than a solid state switch - because the electrical isolation that results from the raw contacts doesn't impact in any way on the conditions of the signal on PIN#60.(hint to AJW - don't use the FET relay)
Don
PS: Try not to pierce the wires too often, If you can, leave the needles intact - less damage to the copper core this way
Snail Style
12-10-2015, 07:32 PM
Ewww don't use a multimeter, your gunna find some problems if you do that. :P
mattaus
12-10-2015, 07:37 PM
I assembled the circuit and after a quick phone call to Don in order to verify that I am in fact an idiot, the device was verified as working and ready for a test run in the car:
VW Automatic Stop/Start Deactivation Device Test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxQZb1SdoaQ&feature=youtu.be)
:banana:
My observations:
I didn't fiddle with the timings at all. For what it's worth I actually like how quickly it activated.
Any delay you build into these devices that starts from the moment the circuit senses power, will literally start the nanosecond you press start/turn the key. So you definitely want enough delay to ensure the S/S system is deactivated AFTER the engine is at idle. Not sure what the consequences of it deactivating too early would be, and I don't want to find out.
There was some concern that the jump from the ancillary 12V to cranking 14V would cause the device to 'reset'. This didn't happen.
The 2 second activation time is completely unnoticeable (by virtue of how the switch actually functions). It could be cut down a lot, but it doesn't hurt either way. Probably safer to leave it as is.
Plenty of room to install the device in and around the gear shifter. Your mileage may vary with a manual shifter though.
We need to work out a robust and easy way to actually interface with the existing wiring loom. I'm going to do some research and see if there is an adapter we can buy that would suit.
More in-depth testing is definitely needed, but this cannot be done until I have a way to interface with the car better (see the point above).
All in all, a pretty damn good result for a first try. Testament to Don's brilliance if anything :thumb:
- Matt
^^^^ Matt: I don't want this to sound like a mutual admiration thing, but my very deepest appreciation for your efforts. I'm making no comment about the way that the components were soldered together (in the video), but the ultimate test is -does the damn thing work -and apparently it does. Wooo-weee halleluiah big G!
So, it seems that the preliminary results are encouraging. But before we both get too excited, I think that we need to understand if there are any longer term issues to address. (i.e. with the car operating under lots of normal conditions).
As discussed, I reckon that you should settle on initial values for T1 and T2. Then dab a dob of glue onto the two potentiometers (something not too strong). Then package-up the components into a sleeve of heat shrink tubing and semi-attach the device to the three wires (so that it can be removed if further modes are needed). Then just drive the car as normal and observe any idiosyncrasies that may arise (with the device- that is).
I'm anticipating receipt of the second monostable oscillator by post later in the week. I'll solder together my unit and post a pic of the arrangement.
Again many thanks for your sterling efforts and for your input to the early stages of this fledgling device!
Don
PS: There's a simple solution if the voltage rise from 12V to 14V (because of the alternator kicking-in) becomes problematic. We could just run the device at a lower voltage (5 Volts, say) by placing a 3 pin regulator in front of the mono. The regulator would provide electrical separation for the mono from the voltage rise (all that would happen is that the volt-drop across the 3 pin regulator would increase when the alternator started - end effect would be an increased power loss in the voltage regulator. But since the device doesn't use much power, the increased heating would be marginal) I would need to change the specs of the relay if this was necessary, but this is not a problem (the TRR1A12D comes in a 5 volt version).
mattaus
12-10-2015, 08:44 PM
As discussed, I reckon that you should settle on some values for T1 and T2, then dab a dob of glue onto the two potentiometers. Then package-up the components into a sleeve of heat shrink tubing and semi-attach the device to the three wires (so that it can be removed if further modes are needed). Then just drive the car as normal and observe any idiosyncrasies that may arise (with the device- that is).
I'll settle on some values pretty easily. I won't attempt to put it back in the car until I have a better way to install it and it may take some time to fine something that will aid with that. I'll also very probably take it all apart and re-assemble it. My eagerness probably got the better of me tonight. That said I'm only going to reassemble it so that it's better suited for wrapping. Might be a few days or even a week or two before it's ready to be installed back in the car.
EDIT: Found this picture whilst searching:
19446
If the author's description is correct (and from the picture I have no reason to believe my connector is any different) I should be able to remove the 3 pins from the connector, wire directly into the pins themselves, and re-insert them. Not something an electronics noob should attempt so a DIY friendly method would still need to be devised. For extended testing purposes however, it should work a treat. I just need to purchase some much thinner gauge wire because the stuff I have is made for high current applications (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?337892-Updated!-A-Different-Kind-of-Maglite-Mod-(Pics-Vid)&highlight=) and will not fit inside the connector what-so-ever.
Great job Mattaus + Don, at least we know it will work now - just looks like we need some more testing under various conditions.
One thing that might be worth testing is using your mobile phone near the circuit, would be interesting if you could trigger it if you make a phone call. (That has me thinking I might shield mine).
Just noticed Mattaus that you've got the same car as me MY16 GTI PP White, although I'm still waiting for mine so it should be exactly the same and I can compare the results you're getting.
Interesting about the 2 V, wondering if your meter was picking up stray voltage around the switch terminals.
In my experience any electronics that has mechanical switches attached will have some reasonable debouncing / Conditioning circuitry on the front end. Ideally it will be setup so that it doesn't need to see a dead short to ground to activate and can expect to see some noise on the line and not trigger, especially in a harsh electronic environment like a car.
The solid state relay that I'm using has a 1ohm on state and a 1000Mohm off state so I'll be surprised if the circuit is that fussy with the device. If it doesn't work I'll go back to a relay, I was using one before.
Looking at the connector picture I was going to try removing the pins if possible and solder wires directly onto contacts. I don't like having connectors between to many points, they cause issues latter on.
F
EDIT: Found this picture whilst searching:
Matt: If my guess is correct, this picture comes from a fellow forum colleague called SHFT (EDIT: picture was clearly posted by Golfdave -link here (http://www.golfmk7.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7908)). Anyhow, unfortunately for some, the pic tells more of a story than your clever suggestion about removing the pins.
If you look carefully at the picture, you will see that there are no wires for PIN# 9 and PIN# 10 on the connector(bummer!!). Notwithstanding that the picture was taken from a UK vehicle, this means that for those mk7 models that don't have a TCS/ESP button (like mine), the option of using PIN# 10 for T15 supply to the mono doesn't exist (Bummer, again!!). So for this variant mk7, the switched 12Volt supply would need to be spliced into the ciggy socket.
The next time that you pull the centre console switch apart, can you see if there is another Black/Yellow wire (other than on PIN #10) in the vicinity - please. In particular, I'm hoping that the wire to the ciggy socket is routed somewhere in the area of the panels that need to be removed near the centre console switches- fingers crossed!
Don
EDIT: attribution for picture corrected
mattaus
13-10-2015, 10:18 AM
Great job Mattaus + Don, at least we know it will work now - just looks like we need some more testing under various conditions.
One thing that might be worth testing is using your mobile phone near the circuit, would be interesting if you could trigger it if you make a phone call. (That has me thinking I might shield mine).
I will test this when I hook everything back up and report back. Not sure when that will be as I'm considering making a PCB to put the relay on because my manual soldering skills suck and there is a two to three week turnaround from OSHPark :(
Just noticed Mattaus that you've got the same car as me MY16 GTI PP White, although I'm still waiting for mine so it should be exactly the same and I can compare the results you're getting.
I don't have leather, but the mixed interior on the PP is quite nice ;) I'd be worried if we get different results lol! Then again my DMM isn't exactly Fluke quality...
Looking at the connector picture I was going to try removing the pins if possible and solder wires directly onto contacts. I don't like having connectors between to many points, they cause issues latter on.
Not sure I follow what you want to do exactly? YOu mean remove the pins and replace them with your own, or juts wire into the existing pins like I intend on doing? When I'm done, all you'll see are two wires going into three of the pin gaps in the back of the plug. That's the plan anyway!
Matt: If my guess is correct, this picture comes from a fellow forum colleague called SHFT. I did some early work with his/her? thread in fitting an ESP button on his car (I'd forgotten). Anyhow, unfortunately for some, the pic tells more of a story than your clever suggestion about removing the pins.
If you look carefully at the picture, you will see that there are no wires for PIN# 9 and PIN# 10 on the connector(bummer!!). Notwithstanding that the picture was taken from a UK vehicle, this means that for those mk7 models that don't have a TCS/ESP button (like mine), the option of using PIN# 10 for T15 supply to the mono doesn't exist (Bummer, again!!). So for this variant mk7, the switched 12Volt supply would need to be spliced into the ciggy socket.
The next time that you pull the centre console switch apart, can you see if there is another Black/Yellow wire (other than on PIN #10) in the vicinity - please. In particular, I'm hoping that the wire to the ciggy socket is routed somewhere in the area of the panels that need to be removed near the centre console switches- fingers crossed!
Don, that sucks! How are the other buttons in the cluster functioning then, or are there none in your model? From memory there are no wires on that side of the shifter, and the ciggie lighter is not easily accessible from the shifter cavity without pulling more panels. That being said, there is a wiring loom on the other side of the shifter for whatever buttons are on that side (only a parking sensor button on my car) so maybe that can be hooked into? I'll definitely take some pictures for you and see what I can find though :)
Don, that sucks! How are the other buttons in the cluster functioning then, or are there none in your model?
Matt: I have an MY13 model which simply has the native VW S/S disable switch on the LHS bank and the park pilot switch on the RHS bank. Neither of these buttons have a T15 wire as they both short-to-earth a signal from their respective control modules (the BCM in the case of the S/S switch and the parking aid control unit in the case of park pilot switch)
Don
mattaus
13-10-2015, 07:14 PM
Matt: I have an MY13 model which simply has the native VW S/S disable switch on the LHS bank and the park pilot switch on the RHS bank. Neither of these buttons have a T15 wire as they both short-to-earth a signal from their respective control modules (the BCM in the case of the S/S switch and the parking aid control unit in the case of park pilot switch)
Don
Got ya. I'll see what I can find next time I'm in the console :)
Got ya. I'll see what I can find next time I'm in the console :)
Matt: Been a while since this thread got updated, so I thought that would write to say that I'm still waiting for the second mono-oscillator to arrive. Even though I got a fast delivery service on the second chip it seems to be taking an inordinate length of time to get through our customs process . I've updated my first post to include some basic tips, but when I build the new unit, I'll also include pics about construction.
So hang-in there and I'll let you know when I can ship-up the new device!
Cheers
Don
PS: I think that I have found an alternative method for building the device. Instead of basing the design on a delayed mono-stable oscillator, I'm experimenting with a neat little memory module that can perform the same function. It's also purchased off-the-shelf, it's physically smaller than the mono and it is completely self-contained (but it still needs the relay and the diodes for spike/noise suppression).
The memory module is fascinating in that it can be simply programmed without the need to use any other equipment. Absolutely brilliant concept (IMO) and it's so, so easy to use that even a silly old fart like me with a feeble and aging brain can understand how it works!! And it costs less than $20 AUD (plus delivery).
Anyway I'll write more about this when I get this alternative design working- but it looks very promising indeed.
mattaus
22-10-2015, 01:58 PM
I think that I have found an alternative method for building the device. Instead of basing the design on a delayed mono-stable oscillator, I'm experimenting with a neat little memory module that can perform the same function. It's also purchased off-the-shelf, it's physically smaller than the mono and it is completely self-contained (but it still needs the relay and the diodes for spike/noise suppression).
The memory module is fascinating in that it can be simply programmed without the need to use any other equipment. Absolutely brilliant concept (IMO) and it's so, so easy to use that even a silly old fart like me with a feeble and aging brain can understand how it works!! And it costs less than $20 AUD (plus delivery).
Anyway I'll write more about this when I get this alternative design working- but it looks very promising indeed.
As you say, very promising :)
fontana302
22-10-2015, 04:08 PM
Very interested in this. I have the same issue I want to deal with on a Porsche Boxster that this could be used for......
here's a link to some similar solution for that issue FWIW:
981 Sport Mode button hack - Page 4 (http://www.planet-9.com/981-cayman-and-boxster-electronics/89773-981-sport-mode-button-hack-4.html)
May be of some assistance re VW.
Very interested in this. I have the same issue I want to deal with on a Porsche Boxster that this could be used for......
here's a link to some similar solution for that issue FWIW:
981 Sport Mode button hack - Page 4 (http://www.planet-9.com/981-cayman-and-boxster-electronics/89773-981-sport-mode-button-hack-4.html)
May be of some assistance re VW.
Fontana: Hello and thanks for the link.
Yes, I did consider using an Arduino style chip - the Digispark seems to be a form of Arduino, but with less "smarts". But I discounted this design because others would need to download the delay program for establishing T1 and T2. It became fairly obvious after starting my research that off-the-shelf devices were readily available at a reasonable cost without the need for computer based programming.
The delayed Mono stable oscillator is an analogue example of how to generate these two time segments and the memory module (which could well be based on the Digispark concept) is a digital way of achieving the same function, but without needing any external software.
My quick reading of the Porsche site suggests that the same solution could apply, but the blog is delightfully vague about the actual circuit that needs to be circumvented to enable sports mode. Do you have any information (perhaps a section of the wiring diagram) indicating exactly what the sports mode switch does (I assume the boxer has a sports mode switch)?
Don
PS: I think that I have found an alternative method for building the device. Instead of basing the design on a delayed mono-stable oscillator, I'm experimenting with a neat little memory module that can perform the same function. It's also purchased off-the-shelf, it's physically smaller than the mono and it is completely self-contained (but it still needs the relay and the diodes for spike/noise suppression).
The memory module is fascinating in that it can be simply programmed without the need to use any other equipment. Absolutely brilliant concept (IMO) and it's so, so easy to use that even a silly old fart like me with a feeble and aging brain can understand how it works!! And it costs less than $20 AUD (plus delivery).
Anyway I'll write more about this when I get this alternative design working- but it looks very promising indeed.
Hello Don - are you able to say what the alternative method is you're working on?
I've got my car now and the quick tests I've done, without it connected to the switch yet, seems to work well when the car is powered on /off.
So now I'm getting close to making a PCB for my version of the circuit
Hello Don - are you able to say what the alternative method is you're working on?
I've got my car now and the quick tests I've done, without it connected to the switch yet, seems to work well when the car is powered on /off.
So now I'm getting close to making a PCB for my version of the circuit
AJW: First- congratulations on getting the new car - I know you will enjoy every minute that you drive it! Second, well done on getting your design to operate successfully. The circuit looked like it would work in theory, but it's always good when the bench-test proves what you had in your head!! I look forward to seeing pics of the constructed PCB and the installation set-up.
As for my alternative design, I've order a test unit and I'm now awaiting delivery. I'll write-up my observations when I get delivery and try it out on the work bench.
I'm even more convinced now that there are many designs that will work on this function. I was even sent the link below by a forum colleague of a commercial unit that looks like it fits across the native S/S button. But it costs 85 Euros - outrageous!!
Start-Stop-Automatic-Memory-Modul (SSAM-Modul)- (http://www.active-sound.eu/en/start-stop-automatic-ssa/start-stop-automatic-memory-modul-ssam-modul)
Cheers
Don
As an alternative to the Auto S/S kill switch that is described on post #1 of this thread, the following design uses a different "programmable" module that is readily available from the net. The "Multi-Functional Delay Timer" (MFDT) can be programmed to undertake 17 x different timing functions, but as used in this design, the inbuilt function #7 performs the exact timing characteristics that are described in post #1 of this thread.
The MFTD can be purchased from EBay and Amazon (see link below), or it can be obtained directly from the distributor via the last link below:
MFDT_Direct (http://www.3rdbrakeflasher.com/timer-c-68/?zenid=771421256af55b7712fa59062f99568d)
Amazon (https://www.amazon.com/Small-Timer-Delay-Relay-Cycling/dp/B07C4ZP23D/ref=sr_1_10?dchild=1&keywords=adjustable+timer+relay&qid=1587020557&sr=8-10)
Multi-functional Delay Timer
The MFDT has 6 x wires as shown in the diagram below:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/CUEGAtnpng-1.jpg
As indicated, the device has the same four wires as per the original Mono (i.e. Vcc, Earth, Vout and Trigger) plus it has two additional wires that are used for programming the T1 and T2 timing periods.
The circuit diagram for the MFTD unit is shown in the diagram below:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/G4PGkTvpng-1.jpg
As indicated, the connections are the same as those for the Mono except that the Trigger wire is not used and the two programming wires are not connected (these wires will be used later). Also, the "freewheeling" diode across the relay coil is not required because a diode has already been included for this purpose inside the MFDT.
Construction
Solder the relay (all legs) and the diode onto a small piece of "Vero" board so that the components are mounted on the track side (the relay should be oriented so that "notch" in on the LHS of the board as shown in the Back-view picture below). Before mounting the relay, remember to remove a section of the track where the relay package is to be placed so that the pins on opposite sides of the relay don't short each-other.
Place a piece of double sided tape to one of the faces on the MFDT and secure the vero board to the other side of the tape
Solder the Red, Black and Yellow wires on the MFDT to the components on the vero board as per the circuit diagram
Solder three wires to the vero board for the connections to be made to the centre console switch as per the circuit diagram.
The three wires coloured White, Green and Blue should not be connected
The pictures below indicate the finished Auto S/S kill switch: Alternate design
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/5uWge76png-1.jpg
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/1JEpxjlpng-1.jpg
Programming Circuit
Using a test bench power supply, or a 12 Volt batttery construct the ciruit diagram below to program the Auto S/S kill switch
Connect a button style switch to each of the white and green wires as shown and connect a LED and series resistor to "see" the pulse signal.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/lmZw8Q0png-1.jpg
Programming Procedure:
With the power switch off, hold down the two buttons, then turn-on the power switch and release the buttons. The LED will illuminate for 3 seconds to indicate that the device has entered the programming mode. Keep the power switch turned-on for steps 2, 3 and 4 of these procedures
Set T1 period: Hold down the button that is connected to the white wire for about 5 seconds. Release the white wire button and the LED will extinguish
Set T2 period: Hold down the button that is connected to the green wire for about 2 seconds. Release the green wire button and the LED will extinguish.
Set Mode: The last step is to set the MFDT to Delayed Interval (single cycle) mode - this provides the timing sequence shown in post #1 of this thread. The code for this mode is 7. To set the mode, momentarily press and release the two buttons together - the LED will flash to indicate that you have entered mode selection. Press the white wire button seven times to set mode 7
Turn-off the power switch - the MFDT is now programmed!
To test the correct timing periods, turn-on the power switch and observe the LED operation.
If T1, and/or T2 need to be re-adjusted, repeat the steps outlined above. (note: there is no need to complete step 4 again - once the mode is set initially, it will remain at the set number).
That's it - Remove the device from the programming circuit, remove the two buttons and secure the unused wires neatly so that they don't short against any other components. Then slip the completed Auto S/S kill switch into a piece of heat shrink tubing and install in the car.
Installation:
Mattaus will describe the installation of the "test device" in his mk7 which has additional buttons in the centre console, but in my MY13 model, there is only one button on either side of the gear selector lever. This means that the T15 power supply wire (Black/Yellow) is not in the wiring loom for the 10 PIN connector to the switch module.
For those in this situation, the additional T15 wire needs to be provided and I found that the most convenient method of doing this was to install a "piggy-back" fuse on fuse position #40 in the "C" fuse box (which is located behind the glove box for those cars that have the steering wheel in the correct side).
Given that I needed to work in the "C" fuse-box area anyway, and because access to the centre console is such a PITA, and because I'm still not certain that the time periods for T1 and T2 are correct (it's therefore likely that I will need to take-out and re-install the device), I decided to mount the Auto S/S Kill switch in the "C" fuse box as well (instead of the cavity in the centre console). To do this, I spliced the two wires to PIN #1 and PIN #4 on the 10 PIN connector and extended these into the "C" fuse box area.
A picture of the complete installation is shown below (note: to minimise the possibility of the device rattling, I wrapped the the completed unit in "bubble-wrap"):
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/xVDomnvpng-1.jpg
So far the device is working perfectly albeit, I 'm tempted to reduce T1 to about 3 seconds. I'll wait for feedback from Mattaus and AJW before making this change
Cheers
Don
I'll be installing my design on the weekend - see how it goes.
I've got a temporary design on protoboard, then I'll make a PCB if it works ok.
Don - good find with that programmable module, probably would have used that if I was starting from scratch.
Do you have to tie the trigger to GND or is it OK floating?
See how my version goes if it doesn't work I might have a look at this module.
Would be nice to have the relay and module all mounted on one PCB.
Where I'm looking to mount the PCB behind the gear lever there's about 12 min thickness.
I'll be installing my design on the weekend - see how it goes.
I've got a temporary design on protoboard, then I'll make a PCB if it works ok.
Don - good find with that programmable module, probably would have used that if I was starting from scratch.
Do you have to tie the trigger to GND or is it OK floating?
See how my version goes if it doesn't work I might have a look at this module.
Would be nice to have the relay and module all mounted on one PCB.
Where I'm looking to mount the PCB behind the gear lever there's about 12 min thickness.
AJW: I've asked this same question of the manufacture and I've yet to get a response, but I beleive that it can just be left unconnected. But you could always connect the trigger to earth if you want - it wont do any harm.
The thickness of the completed version II switch (as in my pics) is 12.5 mm (as measured with a vernier calliper) without the heat-shrink tubing, so it should fit snugly in the space behind the gear lever.
As for putting both the module and the relay/diode on the same board, this is a personal choice as well. I've kind-of done this in my approach, but I've then mounted the "vero" board to the back of the module to reduce the size of the unit (at the expense of the thickness). Choosing a bigger board makes the unit thinner at the expense of width and length! Personal preference (as I said)
Matt now has the fully constructed prototype version1 unit, so I'm hoping to get feedback shortly.
Cheers
Don
EDIT: I have now received a reply from the memory module manufacturer (thanks Slava) - his advice is that the Trigger wire should be left not connected
mattaus
30-10-2015, 09:50 AM
Matt now has the fully constructed prototype version1 unit, so I'm hoping to get feedback shortly.
I plan on getting it done this weekend. Probably Sunday as my Saturday is well and truly booked out lol.
Installed my version of the Circuit today. For those following along I'm using a NE556 + Photomos Solid state relay.
I was able to get the connector apart and remove the pins so I could solder the wires directly onto the pins.
You still need to push a metal spring in first (you can see it in the picture on the pins still in place).
There's 2 small flaps either side that stop the pin from completely coming out after you've pushed the spring tag in.
Really nice connector , Swiss made, seems to make contact in 4 places at once, easy to pull apart for a change.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/eyTLT9v-1.jpg
You can see it's nice and neat with the wires coming out of the connector and no wire splicing.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/QF8Cl8j-1.jpg
I made a pin header connector at the other end of the wiring loom so I could easily plug it into my PCB.
I'll heatshrink it all together when I make my PCB.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/f0jS21A-1.jpg
Here's my prototype PCB mounted behind the gear lever.
The SMD PCB will be about a 1/5th the size of this.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/p4hH4R5-1.jpg
And yes it all works, I've got about a 10 second delay before it turns the Start/Stop off.
The only combination of sequences I can see where it wont work is if you:-
Start the car drive around, stop the car with the Ignition on then restart the car.
To make that work you have to start monitoring the Start/Stop LED which I think is overkill.
I'd say this simple way will cover about 90% of the operation for me.
I'll run it in the car for a while then start on my SMD PCB version.
Also forgot to add, I'm also seeing around 2vdc & about the same AC on the switch contact with the power on (Measured with Fluke 179 meter).
Doesn't seem to effect my Solid State relay operation.
mattaus
31-10-2015, 02:43 PM
That's awesome AJW!
I plan on installing my test unit tomorrow. I was going to do what you did with the plug. Don was kind enough to also include a header plug for me so that'll make things easier. Good place to mount the unit too; mine should fit in the same spot. The ultimate solution would be to run the header outside of the console so that the S/S device could be removed without tearing the dash apart. There are a few spots that this could work but I'll look in more depth tomorrow.
So is there room inside the connector to actually run two wires to the one pin? Looks like there is from your photo so that's great.
Did you have any troubles getting your console apart?
The wire I used was reasonably small so I was able to fit it in the plug with the original wire - slightly thinner than the car wiring.
Console was pretty easy to get apart , this was my second time.
I think the hardest part is removing the rear "U" shape trim - just used a screw driver and went along one side to the other.
Also if you're soldering in the car I always cover everything in towels, having solder splats on the dash or leather isn't a good look.
Plus I always keep tools in the foot well so there's no chance sitting on some tweezers and having them go into your seat.
AJW and Matt: I guess the old adage about life being hard for the wicked is certainly true in my case!!
I just had a rummage around in the centre console on my car and I have to say that it's a little different to the pics that you have both put-up (thanks for doing this -by the way)
My car doesn't have the fancy fittings of your later models. On my MY13 car, there is only one switch on either side of the gear lever (i.e. the S/S disable switch on the LHS & the Park assist button on the RHS. As I feared in a previous post, my quick look this afternoon confirmed that there is no Black/Yellow wire to be seen anywhere in the switch loom, or in the cavity around the gear selector module - bummer!! (see pics below).
I can see the cables that head-off in the direction of the ciggy socket, but they are firmly attached to the bottom of the console assembly, so hooking the loom and raising it to the top of the console isn't practical.
Had a go at trying to get to the ciggy socket connector, but access looks problematic unless I dismantle the entire centre console. I suspect that a better solution might be to run a cable to the fuse panel behind the glove-box (VW call this the "C" fuse box). But it needs further thought.
Anyhow, I'm glad that the install will be easier for the "young blokes" - LOL
Cheers
Don
PS: AJW _ I agree that the hardest part of the process is removing the plastic "c" section - Like you I managed it with a small flat-sided screwdriver, a deft touch and a lot of patience!
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/32dpIAipng-1.jpg
mattaus
02-11-2015, 08:23 AM
I have to apologize as I have not yet had a chance to install the S/S device. An impromptu night on the town Saturday night resulted in me having to leave my car at a mates house overnight and I was unable to retrieve it until late yesterday evening. The installation will happen this week, sooner rather than later :)
I have to apologize as I have not yet had a chance to install the S/S device. An impromptu night on the town Saturday night resulted in me having to leave my car at a mates house overnight and I was unable to retrieve it until late yesterday evening. The installation will happen this week, sooner rather than later :)
Matt: I got mine installed this afternoon. Pulling apart the centre console is a real PITA, so I spliced the wires into the 10 PIN connector and ran them to the "C" fuse box. I put the device in there instead of in the cavity next to the gear selector - much easier to get access when I need to change T1 and/or T2 (or do further mods on the design). Added a small write-up at the end of my post #53
Works perfectly so far, but I reckon that T1 could be reduced to about 3 seconds - what do you think?
Don
mattaus
02-11-2015, 09:36 PM
Matt: I got mine installed this afternoon. Pulling apart the centre console is a real PITA, so I spliced the wires into the 10 PIN connector and ran them to the "C" fuse box. I put the device in there instead of in the cavity next to the gear selector - much easier to get access when I need to change T1 and/or T2 (or do further mods on the design). Added a small write-up at the end of my post #53
Works perfectly so far, but I reckon that T1 could be reduced to about 3 seconds - what do you think?
Don
Shorter is fine, but on reflection there is no harm in leaving it at around 5 seconds. The car will never turn the engine off that quickly after start, and a 5 second delay is about the time it would take most people to remember to manually turn it off. I'll probably just leave mine at 5 seconds unless I see a real need to reduce the time. That's my thought process anyway :)
This is the third in a series of designs for an Auto S/S Kill switch. A principal deficiency with my two former designs, is that they both based on an "open-loop" system. That is, the devices are unable to ascertain whether the SS disabling pulse has been successful: they send out one pulse only and they assume that the pulse has worked the first time.
Whilst this assumption has not been a problem with the device that I have fitted to my car, a better approach is to design the S/S Kill switch based on what system-control folk call a "closed loop" system; that is, a device that is able to monitor whether the kill pulse has been successful and if not, a design that is able to send-out more pulses until SS is actually disabled.
In this design, the S/S Kill switch looks-at the status of the VW SS LED that is mounted inside the SS disabling switch on the centre console. If this LED is illuminated, the SS Kill switch concludes that it has successfully performed its allocated function and it stops sending kill pulses. To cater for the possibility that the LED may be faulty, the new design also limits the total number of kill pulses to a maximum of 9. If it has not successfully disabled SS within these 9 pulses, the device stops operating. I've selected an odd-number for the maximum kill pulses because it leaves the SS facility disabled (an even-number would leave SS enabled)
The design of the "closed-loop" device is based on a "baby" Arduino, called the ATTiny which is not as powerful as it's better known sibling - but it is perfectly suited to this application. Because the ATTiny requires a 5Volt supply, I've opted to use the Digispark (see picture below) which is a kind-of "shield" that allows the ATTiny to operate in the 12 volt environment of a motor vehicle (the Digispark also has a couple of on-board LEDs which were handy in developing the program for the Auto S/S Kill switch).
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/11/Ng7CHZ0png-1.jpg
ATTiny Program
The "smarts" for the closed-loop device is the (simple) program listed below. To help in understanding the code, I have included the flow diagram.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/11/qMnPM7Vpng-1.jpg
//*Automatic Start Stop Kill Switch - Digispark Code by DV52*//
int Digi_LED = 1; //Set P1 as LED on Digispark PCB.
int Relay = 2; //Set P2 as the SS Relay driver
int SS_LED = 3; //Set P3 as monitor for the SS LED on centre console
int counter = 0; //Initialise SS_Kill_pulse counter
int Kill_Max = 9; //Set Maximum number of SS_Kill_pulses
void setup() { //Initialize P1 and P2 as an output and P3 as input.
pinMode(Digi_LED, OUTPUT); //Set P1 - Digispark LED
pinMode(Relay, OUTPUT); //Set P2 - SS Relay driver
pinMode(SS_LED, INPUT); //Set P3 - SS console LED monitor
}
void loop() {
while (counter < Kill_Max) //Test for maximum number of SS_Kill_pulses
{
if (digitalRead(SS_LED) == HIGH) //Send SS_Kill_pulse if SS LED is NOT energised
{
digitalWrite(Digi_LED, HIGH); //Turn-on Digispark LED
digitalWrite(Relay, HIGH); //Turn-on Relay - SS_Kill_pulse inititated
delay(1000); //Wait one second
digitalWrite(Digi_LED, LOW); //Turn-off Digispark LED
digitalWrite(Relay, LOW); //Turn-off Relay
delay(500); //Wait half second before next SS_Kill_pulse
}
else
{
while (1) { } //SS disabled -send Digispark into endless loop
}
counter++; //Increment SS_Kil_pulse counter
}
while (2) { } //Max SS_Kill_pulses exceeded - send Digispark into endless loop
} //End
Circuit Diagram
The circuit diagram for the closed-loop device is shown below. I've included protection diodes on the opto-couplers for safety and I've shown two driver options (I've built both and they both work perfectly)
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/11/K4cdOPypng-1.jpg
Construction
Construction of the device is straight forward - in my case, I mounted all the components for the input and output interfaces onto the track-side of a piece of "Vero board" (tip: solder-in the opto-couplers 1st). I then affixed the Digispark (once programmed) with double sided tape to the board-side of the Vero board and ran wires between the two as shown in the circuit diagram.
EDIT: A note on wire size - as mattaus observed when he installed the first test unit (see 4th video in post#79), large gauge wire will be problematic when splicing the device into the existing wiring loom in the car. The required electrical current in any of the new device's wires is infinitesimal and therefore only small diameter wire is needed. Small gauge wire will make the splicing process easier - without affecting operation.
The picture below shows details of the component layout for my vero-board construction.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/11/A9Fonr1png-1.jpg
The pictures below show the completed device. The device was slipped into a piece of heat shrink tubing (not shown) after testing.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/11/04q1Woypng-1.jpg
Testing after construction
I have programmed the LED on the Digispark as a visual test tool to verify the build, post-construction (see picture above). The Digispark LED is programmed to mimic the output stage. Once the device is built, its operation can be checked (before installation in the car) by connecting the +12V and Earth wires to a test-supply (like the ciggy-lighter, or a battery). The native bootloader in the Digispark enforces a mandatory 5 second delay before the program starts (which is perfect in this application). After applying power and waiting for this delay time, the LED should emit 9 pulses ( 1 sec on - 1/2 sec off). If the wire that is to be connected to PIN #7 of the centre console switch (see circuit diagram) is connected to the +12V test supply (before the 9 pulses are sent), the LED should extinguish - indicating that no more pulses will be sent. If both these tests are performed successfully, the device should be good-to-go!
Not sure if there are many here that are familiar with Arduino protocols. If you are not familiar with how to program the ATTiny, I can do this for you. PM and we can discuss the logistics - perhaps you send me an un-programmed Digispark and in exchange, I send you a programmed Digispark)
Don
mattaus
10-11-2015, 05:37 PM
Not sure why my phone decided to delete my post...
Anyway my plug appears to be ever so slightly different to AJWs even though our cars are near weeks apart on the factory line. Odd.
The reason I bring it up is because I just cannot get the pins out. The spring depresses and the pin starts to slide out backwards but then stops. I can't get it to go any further and its not out far enough to solder to it. Any ideas?
Not sure why my phone decided to delete my post...
Anyway my plug appears to be ever so slightly different to AJWs even though our cars are near weeks apart on the factory line. Odd.
The reason I bring it up is because I just cannot get the pins out. The spring depresses and the pin starts to slide out backwards but then stops. I can't get it to go any further and its not out far enough to solder to it. Any ideas?
Matt: I had pretty-much the same problem with my 10 PIN connector. In frustration and after multiple expletives (this always helps - I find), I decided to just cut the wires, and splice the new wires into the loom. Cover with a heat-shrink tubing and it was all good!
I agree that my method is not as elegant as AJW's efforts, but it did the job just fine!
Don
PS: Congratulations!!
mattaus
11-11-2015, 11:14 AM
Matt: I had pretty-much the same problem with my 10 PIN connector. In frustration and after multiple expletives (this always helps - I find), I decided to just cut the wires, and splice the new wires into the loom. Cover with a heat-shrink tubing and it was all good!
I agree that my method is not as elegant as AJW's efforts, but it did the job just fine!
Well I'm thinking I'll either just scrape the side of the wires and solder to that (and then wrap with electrical tape) or use a wire tap, if I can find ones small enough. For some reason I'm super worried about physically cutting the wires, even if it will provide the second cleanest solution. I'm hoping AJW jumps back in with some super secret way to get the pins out, although if you can't do it then it surely cannot be done lol.
PS: Congratulations!!
If you're talking about what I think you're talking about then thanks, although it's been for over a year now! The planning is just ramping up to a stupid level all of a sudden. Time flies...
Matt: I've never been a big fan of using electrical tape in cars. It invariably unwinds with time and heat. Someone else here may know of a better way of re-insulating the scrapped-off wire insulation, but you are reticent to cut the wires, I have found heated glue gun to be much more effective! Just carefully coat the soldered connection.
Don
I don't think you can see it very well in my photos but I had to un-clip a flap either side of the connector before I could pull the pins out.
The flap stops the pins from coming out, I'm really surprised there would be different connectors in the car.
If it is different I wouldn't use electrical tape.
I'd cut the wires, strip back a few mm of wire from both ends, but some heatshrink sleeve over the wire, solder the 2 wires back + the S/S PCB wires and slide the heatshrink back over the join.
FYI - I've made my PCB + soldered on the SMD components, just waiting to replace my prototype version.
Looks like Don has taken the design to the next level !!!!!!
I've just about forgotten mine is in the car now.
mattaus
11-11-2015, 01:32 PM
I don't think you can see it very well in my photos but I had to un-clip a flap either side of the connector before I could pull the pins out. The flap stops the pins from coming out, I'm really surprised there would be different connectors in the car.
Are these flaps on the long or short edge of the clip? I struggled to see any flaps last night.
In this photo:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/eyTLT9v-1.jpg
What is that 'block' with the two holes sticking up out of the back of the connector where the wires go in? Or am I seeing something different due to the angle of the photo and an unfamiliarity with your connector? To me that's the same long side of the connector as in this photo:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/QF8Cl8j-1.jpg
And yet the connector looks totally different between the two photos!? If I could just see the connector side on it'd probably be obvious :(
What I'm thinking is that in the second photo, the part of the connector with the single round indent, and two rectangular indents, is a cover of some form because it's missing from the first photo. That's why there is an extra groove in the side of the connector in the first photo, and why the gap between the base of the connector and the top part where the springs are seems to be bigger. The questions is - how to get the cover off? I just couldn't seem to do it last night.
Am I making any sense?
You say the connector is swiss made? Got a part number that I could reference perhaps?
mattaus
11-11-2015, 01:43 PM
My questions above beautifully illustrated:
19854
19850
19851
19853
19852
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/11/SDLLgBqpng-1.jpg
Hopefully this picture might make sense.
It's clipped around the side edge halfway along.
I unclipped it fairly easily with a thin small screw driver in the gap where the pink line is.
It then folds back towards the wires - see arrows.
That's why it looks odd in the first picture I have.
This flap stops the wires coming out because the crimp gets blocked by the flap edge.
Once the flap is out the way you push the spring bit shown in the first picture while pulling out the wire at the same time.
You shouldn't need much force.
I'll have a look tonight at my pictures if there was a better view or part number.
Hopefully I'll install my SMD PCB on the weekend so I can take some more pictures if they're required.
mattaus
11-11-2015, 02:43 PM
Ahhhhhhh that seems much clearer now. The first photo of yours made it look like there was some block there! Funny how camera angles can paint a totally different picture.
I'll give that a try after work and see if I can get to those pesky pins. I have to say I spent a long time look for the clip and could not see it. Did you fluke it, or did you know what you were looking for? I'm guessing the latter lol. I'll try and take photos when I do the install.
Yes the camera angle does look odd even though I know how the connector comes apart.
I've pulled a few connectors apart in my time and I could just see the "Hook bits" on the edge so had a go un-clipping the flap.
It came off pretty easily.
It's pretty rare that you can't get pins out of most multipin connectors somehow.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/11/3SQxiKJ-1.jpg
Slightly better look at the side of the connector in this picture.
mattaus
11-11-2015, 07:33 PM
I see it now. Thank you! I'll give it a shot tomorrow - I was late home from work after a doctors appointment started an hour and a half after my appointment time so I'm not in the kind of mood conducive to pulling expensive toys apart lol.
Here's a picture of my finished PCB with components.
You can see it's fairly small compared to the 20cent piece.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/11/wE4qvOb-1.jpg
mattaus
12-11-2015, 07:47 PM
Here's a picture of my finished PCB with components.
You can see it's fairly small compared to the 20cent piece.
Jebus that's tiny! Did you make that PCB yourself? If you used Eagle you could probably get the whole thing down to somewhere between a 10c and 20c piece...in all dimensions.
So anyway, I installed my device this afternoon. Had one issue with adding the wires as the one's on my S/S device were too thick and I didn't have replacement wire. I also didn't have the patience to buy some different wire either given an issue I had as a result of the S/S system yesterday. So anyway - done in a rush but here it all is:
Taking the console apart. (https://youtu.be/-UX6UuEYKkM)
Taking the connector apart. (https://youtu.be/Ijyl0ogJW8s)
Pulling the pins out. (https://youtu.be/ew0N77dBwRY)
Adding the first wire. (https://youtu.be/oqRKw1G0C64)
Adding the final wire. (https://youtu.be/W2uhePXEP-Y) Apologies for holding the switch off camera.
Testing the S/S device. (https://youtu.be/FJjJA3-pc3g)
Putting it all back together. (https://youtu.be/DVpdTQpoaSs)
Basically I just filmed it in bits because it was easier. I hate my voice.
Jebus that's tiny! Did you make that PCB yourself? If you used Eagle you could probably get the whole thing down to somewhere between a 10c and 20c piece...in all dimensions.
So anyway, I installed my device this afternoon. Had one issue with adding the wires as the one's on my S/S device were too thick and I didn't have replacement wire. I also didn't have the patience to buy some different wire either given an issue I had as a result of the S/S system yesterday. So anyway - done in a rush but here it all is:
Taking the console apart. (https://youtu.be/-UX6UuEYKkM)
Taking the connector apart. (https://youtu.be/Ijyl0ogJW8s)
Pulling the pins out. (https://youtu.be/ew0N77dBwRY)
Adding the first wire. (https://youtu.be/oqRKw1G0C64)
Adding the final wire. (https://youtu.be/W2uhePXEP-Y) Apologies for holding the switch off camera.
Testing the S/S device. (https://youtu.be/FJjJA3-pc3g)
Putting it all back together. (https://youtu.be/DVpdTQpoaSs)
Basically I just filmed it in bits because it was easier. I hate my voice.
Matt: ain't nothing wrong with you voice at all, An excellent Aussie twang to be proud of - I reckon that you have another calling as a film maker if you ever want to leave the day job!!
Seriously, great effort and thanks for taking the time to help-out with the project - much appreciated.
I like that your video shows the quick way of taking-off the gear lever gaiter and the easy way of removing the "C" section plastic bit. I'm certain that it will now be a lot easier for others to get access to these bits given that they have access to your video.
My apology for not thinking about the wire size issue when I made the test unit that I sent up (careless of me). I will add notes to all my designs stressing this point in the instructions (btw: the actual size of the VW wires is 0.35 mm2).
Again, my thanks for your help - this is a good example of how forums like this should operate (i.e. as a collegiate exercise)
Don
mattaus
13-11-2015, 02:41 PM
Haha thanks Don. I guess I'm so used to hearing Americans presenting Youtube tutorials that it sounds odd to hear any other accent!
My apology for not thinking about the wire size issue when I made the test unit that I sent up (careless of me). I will add notes to all my designs stressing this point in the instructions (btw: the actual size of the VW wires is 0.35 mm2).
No need to apologise. I had the wire in front of me and didn't even think about it until I tried sticking the receptacle back in. The end solution isn't as clean as AJW's, but I still like it better than cutting the wire's altogether as I was initially going to do. I'm happy with the results :)
bloggo
14-11-2015, 03:22 AM
What brilliant posts, photos and videos by all concerned.
mattaus
16-11-2015, 03:30 PM
So I did a fair bit of driving over the weekend. Happy to report zero issues this far. Works exactly as I want it to :)
monkeysrus
28-11-2015, 12:36 PM
Anyone going to start selling kits???
Anyone going to start selling kits???
Monkeysrus: Hello and thanks for expressing an interest in these units.
Selling kits?? Now there's a great idea - perhaps AJW, matteus and I should have copyrighted the IP (only kidding) - LOL!
I have a number of bit's and pieces left-over from the development phase - probably enough to make-up a few of each version. If I knew where "monkeyland" was (in your forum location header), I'd be more confident of providing an offer (to manufacture, not to install). Why don't you PM and we can negotiate a mutually acceptable trade ( not money, perhaps something else)
Don
So I did a fair bit of driving over the weekend. Happy to report zero issues this far. Works exactly as I want it to :)
matteaus: Good to hear-thanks for the feedback.
The unit that I installed in my car (version 2 -with the memory module) has likewise worked faultlessly for about 1.5 months. In fact, the device has operated so seamlessly that I no longer look for the SS disable light on the centre console button after I turn-on the ignition (it just happens every time). I think that we can confidently say that proof-of-concept has been successful! I'm interested to hear how AJW's design is operating?
Many thanks again for your valuable assistance - take $20 out of the petty cash tin!
Cheers
Don
mattaus
28-11-2015, 08:38 PM
matteaus: Good to hear-thanks for the feedback.
The unit that I installed in my car (version 2 -with the memory module) has likewise worked faultlessly for about 1.5 months. In fact, the device has operated so seamlessly that I no longer look for the SS disable light on the centre console button after I turn-on the ignition (it just happens every time). I think that we can confidently say that proof-of-concept has been successful! I'm interested to hear how AJW's design is operating?
Many thanks again for your valuable assistance - take $20 out of the petty cash tin!
Cheers
Don
Yup, I stopped looking go see if it has turned on a long time a go. It works, hasn't missed a beat and does exactly what it supposed to do. I've also got taking the gear shift ahroud off with my bare hands down pat so its super easy to remove if I need to in a pinch.
I did have one scare when I thought it had stopped working, but the auto S/S had come back on because I put the car in eco mode. When I took it out of eco mode S/S was still activated. That's a limitation of the car, not the device. IMO the eco mode should return to the last setting when you switch to a different driving mode, but that's probably well beyond anyone here!
TL;DR: love it and it works perfectly :)
Talle
05-12-2015, 06:36 AM
Hmm, you guys are aware that you can just change this logic with coding in VCDS ? There is no need for a hardware hack.
Hmm, you guys are aware that you can just change this logic with coding in VCDS ? There is no need for a hardware hack.
Talle: Hello and thanks for the post. You aren't the first to have highlighted the fact that SS can be disabled via a VCDS tweak and I've referred to this matter in a couple of previous posts. I have written instructions in the VCDS thread for the three options for doing this and I had implemented the "temperature" method on my car for about two years prior to designing the kill switch.
However, the VCDS tweak really only tricks the car by using one of SS's limiting controls. The problem with the tweak is that it leaves the tell-tale symbol (letter A with a slash) on the dash whenever the car comes to a halt.
When last I had the car serviced, I had a hard time convincing the mechanic that saw the tell-tale message that there wasn't a fault with the car. He even discussed the problem with the muppet-boffins at HQ and he booked my car for a further investigation which I won't meet (he still doesn't believe that it's possible to defeat SS).
Much better method of dealing with SS (IMO) is the Automatic SS kill switch. The good thing about the kill switch is that it uses the car's own disabling facility.
Don
Talle
05-12-2015, 06:59 AM
??? Then you dont have the correct procedure. On the audi A6 2012, 4G the pocedure is as follows:
Go to 09 - cent. elec.
Login (code for the A6 is 20113, dont know if this is the same for the golf)
Adapt channel 34
-4 SS at ignition on off
+4 SS always off
+32 last status SS after ignition off
Works like charm on the A6, no fault codes, no symbols
??? Then you dont have the correct procedure. On the audi A6 2012, 4G the pocedure is as follows:
Go to 09 - cent. elec.
Login (code for the A6 is 20113, dont know if this is the same for the golf)
Adapt channel 34
-4 SS at ignition on off
+4 SS always off
+32 last status SS after ignition off
Works like charm on the A6, no fault codes, no symbols
Talle: Hello again - thank you for your reply. the Audi A6 is certainly a very impressive car but I'm not entirely sure that your instructions are pertinent to those vehicles that are built on the MQB platform (your car is designated 4G where as mk7s are designated "5G").
I'm certainly not an expert where VCDS cables are concerned but I'm not aware of "Adapt channel 34" on a mk7 and the settings for adapatation channels tend to be straight alpha numeric entries (i.e. they don't include "+", or "-" signs). But there may well be a similar adaption channel (there are over 3,000 adaptation channels on a mk7) buried deep in one of the control modules in the km7 that does the same thing (I haven't found it yet). If there is such a facility, and when someone finds it and if the intention is to disable SS permanently - then those that choose to do so, can use the VCDS option.
For me and for now, I prefer the kill switch because it enables me to re-energise SS any time that I want in the journey whilst still having SS switch off automatically when the ignition turns on.
Thanks again for the reply and for highlighting the A6 methodology
Don
Talle
05-12-2015, 08:22 AM
Hi again, yup, its probably a slightly different procedure on the golf, thats why I highlighted that this procedure is for the Audi A6 on a slightly older platform. And yeah, my Audi is behaving exactly as your golf. I have subtracted 4 from adaption channel 34 (it had a value of 20, -4 = new value 16). And now the s/s is off as default during startup (you have a light in the s/s button). And if you want to enable the s/s again during your jurney, just push the button and the light goes out, and s/s is back on. No warnings, no hack, everything works as if you just had pushed the button after start up, exactly like your hardware hack. And I am SURE that there is a procedure like this on the mk7 also. What value do you actually have in adaption channel 34 ? (remember to login first).
Hi again, yup, its probably a slightly different procedure on the golf, thats why I highlighted that this procedure is for the Audi A6 on a slightly older platform. And yeah, my Audi is behaving exactly as your golf. I have subtracted 4 from adaption channel 34 (it had a value of 20, -4 = new value 16). And now the s/s is off as default during startup (you have a light in the s/s button). And if you want to enable the s/s again during your jurney, just push the button and the light goes out, and s/s is back on. No warnings, no hack, everything works as if you just had pushed the button after start up, exactly like your hardware hack. And I am SURE that there is a procedure like this on the mk7 also. What value do you actually have in adaption channel 34 ? (remember to login first).
Talle: Hm... not sure how to say this any other way, but to my knowledge, there is no "channel 34", or anything like this facility on a mk7 -the fundamental structure of adaptation channels is completely different in the car!
The process of adding/subtracting Hexadecimal numbers to/from a single car-wide bank of adaptation channels to change settings for SS simply doesn't apply to MQB platform vehicles. In MQB models, each control module has it's own individual bank of adaptation channels (except of the auto transmission control module at address hex02 - which has no adaptation channels at all).
As I said previously, in total the mk7 will have in excess of 3,000 adaptation channels spread across the 10-20 control modules. Each adaptation channel is specific to it's related control module and some (many?) can only be changed with security access codes that apply to a specific control module. So there is no single security access code for the entire bank of adaption channels (as I suspect that there is in the Audi).
For example, if I search for the term "Start Stop" in the database of adaption channels for my car, I get 22 hits. These SS adaptation channels appear in the BCM, the CAN Gateway, Auto HVAC -Air conditioner, and the Engine control module. So SS is integrally intermeshed into the car's DNA on MQB platform vehicles
It's great that in your Audi, the designers have simplified the control of SS into a single adaptation channel - #34. Alas this does not appear to be the case in the mk7 (or at least, no one has found this to be the case in a mk7 since the cars were first released).
This said (and as indicated in my VCDS tweak instructions to disable SS), later models of the mk7 are fitted with the control module Acc/Start Auth. (address 05, HW:5Q0-959-435). This controller has only one adaptation channel with the descriptor Deactivation of start-stop function and default setting is not active. However, to my knowledge no one has been able to disable SS using by this setting.
Never-say-never, perhaps someone will find a way to replicate your tweak - for now though, I suspect that the Audi solution simply won't work on a mk7, I would be delighted to be proven wrong
Again, many thanks for your interest
Don
Talle
05-12-2015, 08:30 PM
This said (and as indicated in my VCDS tweak instructions to disable SS), later models of the mk7 are fitted with the control module Acc/Start Auth. (address 05, HW:5Q0-959-435). This controller has only one adaptation channel with the descriptor Deactivation of start-stop function and default setting is not active. However, to my knowledge no one has been able to disable SS using by this setting.
Yup, the A6 is also equipped with the 05 Acc/star auth. and yes, you will also find s/s system here, and in a bunch of other modules, but it is only in module 09 (with the correct login) you can code it permanently afaik. And again, I am sure that there is a way also on the mk7 platform, but I don't know the procedure for it.
Volks
19-12-2015, 08:24 AM
DV52: do you recon this will work for an Audi S1? If you end up selling these let me know!
DV52: do you recon this will work for an Audi S1? If you end up selling these let me know!
Volks: Wow -what an excellent question!! I'm annoyed that I didn't think about how the device might be applied more generally to other vehicles when I was in development phase - I blame this on my failing mental capacity (due in most part to old age and an overindulgence on red wine!)
It's real easy to do this -with at most, only a minor alteration to the circuit. What I tried to do in the mk7 case was minimise the number of connection points between the device and the wiring loom in the car. I was able to use the fact that one side of the SS on/off switch on the centre console of a mk7 was earthed. This meant that could use the earth inside the device for the same purpose thus avoiding one connection point in the wiring loom - hope this makes sense.
In the case of the Audi S1 (a very nice car indeed), I'm not sure if the native SS on/off switch is similarly earthed on one side. Do you know if this is the case? If it is (you may need to refer to a wiring diagram), then the mk7 design should be OK. If the SS on/off switch is not earthed on one side, then the circuit below should work
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/12/kc28FiVpng-1.jpg
Hopefully it's evident from the diagram above that that device simply connects in parallel with the SS on/off switch in the car. The only change from the mk7 case is that I have removed the internal earth in the contacts of the micro-relay (it's as easy as that).
With the modified design above, the contacts in the micro relay are entirely independent of (and completely insulated from) any other part of the car's electrical circuits. So the device should be able to be applied regardless of the wiring configuration of the native SS on/off switch in the car (as long as this is a momentary on/off switch). But alas, as with all things in life, this modification comes with a catch - an extra wire needs to be connected to the car's wiring loom (there are 4 x connections with this design- whereas the mk7 design had 3).
As to commercial production of these devices - this may be an option in the future! But since the circuit is so simple, why not make one yourself?
Don
Volks
20-12-2015, 08:48 AM
Hi Don, thanks for your informative reply:) I'm not skilled in electronics and I have only done basic things like strip wires and solder things together but never have I built a circuit from scratch. I did however pull the electrical connector from the switch panel and post some pictures and hopefully you can comment.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/12/P12605871_zpsmaoehrxi-1.jpg (http://s1175.photobucket.com/user/Mailsack/media/P1260587-1_zpsmaoehrxi.jpg.html)http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/12/P1260592121_zpssapf29i4-1.jpg (http://s1175.photobucket.com/user/Mailsack/media/P1260592-1-2-1_zpssapf29i4.jpg.html)http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/12/P12605941_zpsiotp7cuu-1.jpg (http://s1175.photobucket.com/user/Mailsack/media/P1260594-1_zpsiotp7cuu.jpg.html)
Hi Don, thanks for your informative reply:) I'm not skilled in electronics and I have only done basic things like strip wires and solder things together but never have I built a circuit from scratch. I did however pull the electrical connector from the switch panel and post some pictures and hopefully you can comment.
Volks: I like your enthusiasm. Already pulled the console apart and photographed the switch!!
First impressions are that it looks promising! The connectors in the two cars look "not dissimilar" as the pic below suggests (the mk7 pic comes from post #57 on this thread by AJW:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/12/Fh8iyxLpng-1.jpg
Cleary the two vehicles use a similar set-up (both use 10 pin connectors which look identical) albeit the physical S1 wiring at the connector appears to be simpler (which is a good thing). But the "acid-test" is what the wiring diagram says! If you can get access to a wiring diagram for an S1 - I am willing to have a look and see if it's at all possible.
Not sure if you already know (my apology if you do), but there's lots of information about Audis on the Erwin site (link below)
https://erwin.audi.com/
A fee applies to use the site, but it's very modest amount (€7.00 for one hour). You will have to register and then you will need to navigate to the section that has the wiring diagrams for your particular model Audi. In their wisdom, the Audi call wiring diagrams "Current flow diagrams" (which kind-of makes sense in a German way!). The site is fairly easy to use and when you find the file that matches your car (type and year of manufacture), you simply down load the PDF file onto your PC - it's that easy!
Don
Volks
20-12-2015, 05:15 PM
Thanks Don, I will look into getting a wiring/flow diagram for the Audi S1, you may want to edit your previous post and change A6 to S1 :). ErWin dosen't list the S1 so I assume its the same as the A1. If you registered with erWin for the entire day I'm guesing you could download the entire manual?
ozmale
15-10-2017, 03:22 PM
Is this project still active ?
Just ordered a new golf 7.5 "R". live in Sydney.
I hate car with this start/stop function, sooner disabled the better.
Is this project still active ?
Just ordered a new golf 7.5 "R". live in Sydney.
I hate car with this start/stop function, sooner disabled the better.
Ozmale: Active? How do you mean? This is a DIY project, so it's as "active" as you want to make it :cool:
I've been using mine for many years now and it has never missed a beat! In fact, now I have forgotten all about it - it just operates quietly in the background whenever I switch-on the ignition. I know of a couple of forum colleagues in Europe/UK who have also built the unit - AFAIK, it works OK for them too.
You should be aware that there are alternative methods to disable SS. If you have a diagnostic cable, you could use a VCDS/OBDeleven tweak, or you could buy on of these:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2017/10/xdonglejpgpagespeedicNP0ybUnyHp-1.jpg
from Kufatec (https://www.kufatec.com.au/shop/en/diagnostic-tools/kufatec-diagnostic-coding-dongle/volkswagen-audi/coding-interface-disable-start-stop). It's a bit easier to install (it plugs into the OBD port), but it's nowhere near as fun to build and DIY (IMO)
Don
ozmale
15-10-2017, 07:59 PM
G,day Don,
I didn't mean "active" in any disrespectful way, its just that the last post was some time ago so wondered if your gadget had somehow over time become redundant.
I am an electronic engineer myself (worked for Telstra for 40 years) but sadly a medical condition prevents me from welding a soldering iron with any accuracy these days.
Thus my next question was if anyone is building your device for sale?
Thanks for the "Kufatec" link, it obviously does the job but there is no real indication from the site if the unit needs to be permanently plugged into the ODB port. This would be undesirable.
I prefer an external solution, thus your device.
Chris
gregozedobe
15-10-2017, 10:01 PM
Thanks for the "Kufatec" link, it obviously does the job but there is no real indication from the site if the unit needs to be permanently plugged into the ODB port. This would be undesirable.
From what has been said in other threads on this site, you only need to connect the Kufatec device for a minute or so, and can then remove it entirely. Each time it is connected it toggles auto stop/start from on to off, or from off to on. It can only be used on one car, so no fixing everyone's cars with the one device.
G,day Don,
I didn't mean "active" in any disrespectful way, its just that the last post was some time ago so wondered if your gadget had somehow over time become redundant.
I am an electronic engineer myself (worked for Telstra for 40 years) but sadly a medical condition prevents me from welding a soldering iron with any accuracy these days.
Thus my next question was if anyone is building your device for sale?
Thanks for the "Kufatec" link, it obviously does the job but there is no real indication from the site if the unit needs to be permanently plugged into the ODB port. This would be undesirable.
I prefer an external solution, thus your device.
Chris
Chris: sorry to read about the medical condition. I still have sufficient bits in the junk box to put together another device (I think). If you want to use an auto SS kill switch, PM and we can arrange the details
Don
Kachingg
16-10-2017, 12:44 AM
I have the kufatech module and used it on my car with no issues at all easy to use can use it multiple times on the same car (it locks to the 1st car its used on)
You don't need to leave it plugged in to the obd port
Much better imo than soldering stuff into your car!
ozmale
16-10-2017, 03:58 AM
Don,
Thanks heaps for the offer to knock one up for me with PM you
Chris
ozmale
16-10-2017, 04:03 AM
I have the kufatech module and used it on my car with no issues at all easy to use can use it multiple times on the same car (it locks to the 1st car its used on)
You don't need to leave it plugged in to the obd port
Much better imo than soldering stuff into your car!
Kachingg,
Thanks heaps for clearing up my concern about if the device needed to be left plugged in. If I can I will use "Don's" device as my preference ATM. From the "Kufatech" site its $50 plus $25 delivery. Don't have a problem with the $50 cost but $24 to deliver charge is a rought. The device would fit into a $2 post pack.
Kachingg
16-10-2017, 11:32 AM
Np at all mate 24 bucks for delivery is steep it cost me 74 with delivery but to me well worth it
bgroper
16-10-2017, 02:35 PM
Kachingg,
... but $24 to deliver charge is a rought. The device would fit into a $2 post pack.
rought != rort
;-)
ozmale
16-10-2017, 02:40 PM
rought != rort
;-)
I just love you spelling nazi's :banana: so good.
Kachingg
16-10-2017, 06:05 PM
Ah auto correct how i love it....
That will teach me to rush a post !
bgroper
18-10-2017, 06:31 PM
Sorry to not have read all 11 pages of this thread. TLDR;
Is it possible to disable the Stop/Start function using the coding software ?
Disable engine Start / Stop functionality.
Select Control unit 19
Adaptation
Start Stop Limit voltage
Value=12
Would this work too ?
ozmale
19-10-2017, 10:22 AM
Sorry to not have read all 11 pages of this thread. TLDR;
Is it possible to disable the Stop/Start function using the coding software ?
Disable engine Start / Stop functionality.
Select Control unit 19
Adaptation
Start Stop Limit voltage
Value=12
Would this work too ?
Apparently it does work but like the temperature method a permanent flashing icon appears in the instrument cluster.
bgroper
19-10-2017, 08:17 PM
Apparently it does work but like the temperature method a permanent flashing icon appears in the instrument cluster.
Thx. Thats sure to irritate. Shall avoid.
Hole46
19-10-2017, 10:22 PM
Apparently it does work but like the temperature method a permanent flashing icon appears in the instrument cluster.
Haven’t heard of this before. No problems with my Tiguan.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
ozmale
20-10-2017, 04:08 AM
Haven’t heard of this before. No problems with my Tiguan.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I think this start/stop think is an evolving std. some car may still be able to disable successfully, other it will get harder and harder. The manufacturers unfortunately need to make disabling difficult as its part of their economy calculations.
However there is a move in Australia (initiated by the insurance companies) to not have it at all. Apparently its has been blamed on an increasing number of car accidents as the engine cuts out just as you make a right hand turn in front of oncoming traffic.
Chris
Kachingg
20-10-2017, 08:08 AM
I think this start/stop think is an evolving std. some car may still be able to disable successfully, other it will get harder and harder. The manufacturers unfortunately need to make disabling difficult as its part of their economy calculations.
However there is a move in Australia (initiated by the insurance companies) to not have it at all. Apparently its has been blamed on an increasing number of car accidents as the engine cuts out just as you make a right hand turn in front of oncoming traffic.
Chris
This exactly is my issue with it from a safety point
Not to mention its annoying genersl habits i nearly got t-boned
At a intersection when it cut out only 2 days after getting the car was not a happy camper you put you foot down and the wait is to long...
Haven’t heard of this before. No problems with my Tiguan.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hole: The "temperature" and "voltage" methods work by fooling the control modules into thinking that either the ambient temperature is too high, or there is insufficient voltage in the battery to restart the car after it is turned off by SS. What happens if either of these tweaks are used is that an "A" with a slash appears on the MFD when the car comes to a stop (it's sometimes called the "SS tweak tell"). Have a look on your Tiggy for this symbol - I think that the "tell" appears over the gear number. This indicates that SS is active, but that it isn't able to engage because some aspect of the car prohibits the function. If you interrogate this "error", the MENU screen will display the first line in the picture below
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2016/11/hK8DDU7png-1.jpg
Don
ozmale
20-10-2017, 11:27 AM
This exactly is my issue with it from a safety point
Not to mention its annoying genersl habits i nearly got t-boned
At a intersection when it cut out only 2 days after getting the car was not a happy camper you put you foot down and the wait is to long...
BYW, two new unspoken rules of driving in Australia if you ever have an accident.
1. I didnt see, I was distracted looking at the speedo. These days the authorities want us to spend all our time watching the speedo. You would be surprised the number of people getting off just by saying that statement.
2. I couldn't get out of the way, the car didn't re-start quick enough.
bgroper
20-10-2017, 03:10 PM
By accident (no pun intended) I've discovered a welcome "feature" of the Stop/Start function.
If coming to a stop quite smoothly, and being very gentle with the brake pedal during the final moments of motion,
this prevents the engine from switching off when car becomes stationary.
When already stationary, firmer pressure on the brake pedal will then stop the engine.
Slight release of pedal pressure, without enabling any motion, will restart the engine.
I don't remember reading about this in the manual, but there's lots I don't remember. :-(
Its becoming quite natural for me to use this feature (or is it a bug ?) to overcome the irritating and dangerous Stop/Start function.
HTH
By accident (no pun intended) I've discovered a welcome "feature" of the Stop/Start function.
If coming to a stop quite smoothly, and being very gentle with the brake pedal during the final moments of motion,
this prevents the engine from switching off when car becomes stationary.
When already stationary, firmer pressure on the brake pedal will then stop the engine.
Slight release of pedal pressure, without enabling any motion, will restart the engine.
I don't remember reading about this in the manual, but there's lots I don't remember. :-(
Its becoming quite natural for me to use this feature (or is it a bug ?) to overcome the irritating and dangerous Stop/Start function.
HTH
bgroper: Yes, its called the "SS shuffle"; it's the sweet-spot in the brake pedal pressure beyond which the car has stopped, but before the SS function has engaged. I learned the SS shuffle in the early days of owning my mk7 - but I eventually got very tired of driving like Fred-Astaire! :facepalm: . This is the 21st century and VW's enforcement of a feature that makes their cars positively dangerous (example, completing a RH turn against oncoming traffic) is just plain wrong IMO!
It's OK (I guess) if folk drive with SS engaged (as long as I'm not the car coming the other way when they are completing a RH turn), but I cannot understand why the boffins @VW couldn't design the center console switch so that it remembers the position that it was left-in at the last ignition sequence.
Don.
Kachingg
20-10-2017, 06:07 PM
Yep i highly recommend everyone who finds it a issue to do something about it after my delete of the program its a huge relief and so much safer
Use any program or device that resolves the issue it's so much safer and more fun to drive
bgroper
20-10-2017, 08:30 PM
I'm becoming accustomed to the Fred Astaire driving style.
Perhaps could even grow to like it.
gregozedobe
20-10-2017, 09:41 PM
By accident (no pun intended) I've discovered a welcome "feature" of the Stop/Start function.
If coming to a stop quite smoothly, and being very gentle with the brake pedal during the final moments of motion,
this prevents the engine from switching off when car becomes stationary.
When already stationary, firmer pressure on the brake pedal will then stop the engine.
Slight release of pedal pressure, without enabling any motion, will restart the engine.
I don't remember reading about this in the manual, but there's lots I don't remember. :-(
Its becoming quite natural for me to use this feature (or is it a bug ?) to overcome the irritating and dangerous Stop/Start function.
HTH
Unfortunately that's not how Stop/Start works on my 7.5 R :(
Mine cuts out before I've completely stopped, no matter how gentle I am on the brakes (and I am quite light footed - I often sell a car with the original brake pads, including one that had over 180,000km). It will restart if I wiggle the steering wheel.
I think I will program myself to hit the SS button immediately after the Start engine button as if I know I'm going to be stationary for a long time I do like the engine to stop running.
It's a pity VW didn't move the buttons to the correct (driver) side of the gear lever when they changed to RHD, but seeing as they were always too lazy/penny pinching to move the indicator stalk I guess it is no surprise they took the easy way out.
ozmale
21-10-2017, 10:58 AM
You know, if you think about it, it is a very complicated piece of software that controls the SS feature. Incredible to go to so much trouble for something the clearly a lot of people don't want.
I would never buy a second hand car with this feature that the previous owner used. You can just imagine what is going to fail a soon as you get it home. All the components in the start cycle. Even if these parts are somehow beefed up (which I doubt).
Almost all the wear and tare on an internal combustion engine is done when starting and here we are starting an engine 1000's of times more than necessary.
Paul_R
21-10-2017, 11:54 AM
We have stop-start on both our cars. Neither of us use it. Turning it off is just part of the (many) button pressing routine at start up. The longest and most annoying of these being having to press race mode (or in my case Individual mode because I like the suspension in normal) every single time to open the outer exhaust flaps. I’m looking forward to not having to do that on my wagon when it arrives :)
I wonder if every R owner is aware of the flap reset issue. I drove past one yesterday and the outer exhaust tips looked like new while the inboard two were black like all four of mine are. Maybe they just never change the drive mode.
bgroper
22-10-2017, 02:01 PM
I read somewhere that the Stop/Start annoyance is only enabled in "Normal" mode.
So if "Individual" mode is programmed with same settings as normal mode, and individual mode is selected, does the Stop/Start thingy stay deactivated ?
When I get my car back, I'll try this out.
Meanwhile, thanks for any tips or clues.
revster
22-10-2017, 04:29 PM
I wonder if every R owner is aware of the flap reset issue. I drove past one yesterday and the outer exhaust tips looked like new while the inboard two were black like all four of mine are. Maybe they just never change the drive mode.
I have a 7.5 R and use individual mode with DCC is normal. With most other things on Race (apart from Sound). Are you saying I need to reselect this each time to reset the flaps?
kennyc
22-10-2017, 04:33 PM
I read somewhere that the Stop/Start annoyance is only enabled in "Normal" mode.
So if "Individual" mode is programmed with same settings as normal mode, and individual mode is selected, does the Stop/Start thingy stay deactivated ?
When I get my car back, I'll try this out.
Meanwhile, thanks for any tips or clues.
My 7.5 R is in individual mode and SS works as it should. Also I can get it to NOT cut out by no depressing the brake pedal so hard.
Also the 7.5 R DAP (should be the same with all 7.5 golfs) is great in that it detects the car in front and when the car in front driver off the engine automatically kicks in again.
I actually really like the SS feature and have never experienced an issue with the engine cutting out when trying to do a right turn. I guess when I figured out the "trick" on how to have it not cut out from my mk7 GTI it hasn't bothered me one bit.
bgroper
22-10-2017, 07:58 PM
...
I actually really like the SS feature and have never experienced an issue with the engine cutting out when trying to do a right turn.
And lots/many/some other folks seem to also dislike this "feature", which really should be the point.
Different drivers have different styles and desires, so the default for the SS feature should be configurable by the driver, NOT fixed by VAG.
Some drivers would select ON by default, others would select OFF by default. Everybody happy.
Sadly, I accept such driver choice of default is unlikely to ever be implemented. :(
wookie_666
23-10-2017, 09:00 AM
Hi Don
Hopefully this gets to you mate.
Im in sydney, just picked up a mk7.5 wolfs wagon.
I would love to pay for your time to make one of these units for me. For sure i could do it myself, although if you have the knowhow, and parts already, im happy to pay.
Please message me a price mate. inc shipping to sydney if possible.
Thanks again for the time.
bgroper: Yes, its called the "SS shuffle"; it's the sweet-spot in the brake pedal pressure beyond which the car has stopped, but before the SS function has engaged. I learned the SS shuffle in the early days of owning my mk7 - but I eventually got very tired of driving like Fred-Astaire! :facepalm: . This is the 21st century and VW's enforcement of a feature that makes their cars positively dangerous (example, completing a RH turn against oncoming traffic) is just plain wrong IMO!
It's OK (I guess) if folk drive with SS engaged (as long as I'm not the car coming the other way when they are completing a RH turn), but I cannot understand why the boffins @VW couldn't design the center console switch so that it remembers the position that it was left-in at the last ignition sequence.
Don.
wookie_666
23-10-2017, 09:01 AM
Hi Paul
I have picked up my Mk7.5 wolfs wagon. Whats the best way to check if this is active or not? I mean the having to press individual mode when you start the car?
We have stop-start on both our cars. Neither of us use it. Turning it off is just part of the (many) button pressing routine at start up. The longest and most annoying of these being having to press race mode (or in my case Individual mode because I like the suspension in normal) every single time to open the outer exhaust flaps. I’m looking forward to not having to do that on my wagon when it arrives :)
I wonder if every R owner is aware of the flap reset issue. I drove past one yesterday and the outer exhaust tips looked like new while the inboard two were black like all four of mine are. Maybe they just never change the drive mode.
wookie_666
23-10-2017, 09:01 AM
Stop start does not work in Sport mode(pulling down on the gear stick). or race mode. Individual it still works. Unless you have drive set to race mode.
I read somewhere that the Stop/Start annoyance is only enabled in "Normal" mode.
So if "Individual" mode is programmed with same settings as normal mode, and individual mode is selected, does the Stop/Start thingy stay deactivated ?
When I get my car back, I'll try this out.
Meanwhile, thanks for any tips or clues.
Paul_R
23-10-2017, 10:54 AM
Hi wookie,
the wagons don't have exhaust flaps. They are just loud all the time - totally different exhaust setup. You don't need to worry about selecting your drive mode every time you start up. Just get in and drive :)
The hatch has electronically controlled flaps that open the outer pipes when the engine is in sport mode. The problem is that they close when you shut off the engine and don't re open on start up until the sport mode is selected again. They may have fixed it in the 7.5 hatches but I haven't heard anything about it.
ozmale
24-10-2017, 10:42 AM
We have stop-start on both our cars. Neither of us use it. Turning it off is just part of the (many) button pressing routine at start up. The longest and most annoying of these being having to press race mode (or in my case Individual mode because I like the suspension in normal) every single time to open the outer exhaust flaps. I’m looking forward to not having to do that on my wagon when it arrives :)
I wonder if every R owner is aware of the flap reset issue. I drove past one yesterday and the outer exhaust tips looked like new while the inboard two were black like all four of mine are. Maybe they just never change the drive mode.
A common mod on Mk6 "R" was "The flap mod" involved plugging the vacuum line to the rear of the car. thus making sure the flap or flap are always open
wookie_666
30-10-2017, 05:47 AM
So i ended up making one of these yesterday
Using an arduino pro nano
A logic level relay (which is basically a 5v relay)
a Polulu voltage regulator
I mounted it all to a perf board, did the 3 connections (+ve, -ve, and sensor), and mounted it in behind the shifter,
Connect it to the 3 wires noted on the page 1 and page 6 of this thread.
It works flawlessly. Thanks for all who are involved.
(ps, arduino is probably overkill, but the ability to be able to code it to do exactly what i want makes it much easier. And the pro nano isn't much bigger than some of the other modules i have seen in this thread).
So i ended up making one of these yesterday
Using an arduino pro nano
A logic level relay (which is basically a 5v relay)
a Polulu voltage regulator
I mounted it all to a perf board, did the 3 connections (+ve, -ve, and sensor), and mounted it in behind the shifter,
Connect it to the 3 wires noted on the page 1 and page 6 of this thread.
It works flawlessly. Thanks for all who are involved.
(ps, arduino is probably overkill, but the ability to be able to code it to do exactly what i want makes it much easier. And the pro nano isn't much bigger than some of the other modules i have seen in this thread).
wookie: well done! So why didn't VW make this simple modification at the factory? Not sure if you read my arduino version of the Auto SS kill switch earlier in this thread. I used a Digispark which has an AT-tiny version of Arduino.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/11/Ng7CHZ0png-1.jpg
I chose the Digispark because it already has a (simple) 3 x pin voltage regulator mounted on the shield. Just to jaz-up the design, I made a closed-loop design the confirms the status of the SS-off LED inside the console switch.
Anyhow, as you say- the beauty of the adruino "over-kill" is its flexibility and I suspect that your code was less than 10 lines. At the time that I designed my version of the switch, there was only the Digispark, but now there is a Digispark Pro which has an EEPROM fitted. As you will doubtless know, the advantage of the EEPROM is that the switch can remember its own state at the previous ignition cycle.
If you are the type that likes to "embellish", try changing the code so that a long press of the SS console button when the ignition is switched-on disengages the Auto kill switch entirely (and vica-versa). This can be useful when you take your car for a service. I now tell the service manager that the switch is fitted so that he doesn't try to fault find the SS behavior in my car - so a disabling facility is useful!
I have an intention to do this on my arduino version when I get the time!
Don
wookie_666
30-10-2017, 08:14 AM
Excellent,
Thanks for the reply Don
I had a chat with a workmate today and he mentioned the same thing about long press to disable/enable. And I thought to myself what would work, you have just answered my question.
So far, i used the arduino as its what i had lying around, and the polulu voltage reg was also part of a redundant pcb i had too.
I have mistakenly wired the power to the wire that turns the white light on and off with the headlights, so it was funny realising today why it wouldn't work when i started the car outside, and it was because the headlights didn't turn on. I couldn't get a constant 12v from the black/yellow wire, but i probably rushed, or wasn't checking properly.
Regarding my code Im using one pin out (2), delay for 2 seconds, High for 1 second then Low indefinitely. So the code was very simple.
Just wanted to say thanks for the research put into this, Once i had my head around it, its brilliant. I was also weary of hacking into my 7 day old wolfs wagon.
Cheers.
wookie_666
30-10-2017, 12:10 PM
For the life of me, i cant think of how to sense if the button is pressed, The only thing i can think of is connecting an I/O of the arduino to the black/blue wire (which usually runs about 2v when not pressed.) The arduino would recognize this voltage and realise its not pressed. when the button is pressed, the black/blue is grounded, meaning the arduino would recognize zero voltage and know its pressed.
Would I connect that Black/blue to an analog pin or digital pin. Im not sure if that voltage is AC Or DC as i have read before in this thread something about AC voltage.
For the life of me, i cant think of how to sense if the button is pressed, The only thing i can think of is connecting an I/O of the arduino to the black/blue wire (which usually runs about 2v when not pressed.) The arduino would recognize this voltage and realise its not pressed. when the button is pressed, the black/blue is grounded, meaning the arduino would recognize zero voltage and know its pressed.
Would I connect that Black/blue to an analog pin or digital pin. Im not sure if that voltage is AC Or DC as i have read before in this thread something about AC voltage.
wookie: hm............... very good question indeed! Why not do as you suggest but make the black/blue wire perform both input and output functions - connected to separate ports. I have always preferred to electrically insulate the BCM away from any add-on new circuitry, so an opto-isolator seems ideal. perhaps something like this:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2017/10/YkCshEUpng-1.jpg
So- the black/blue wire becomes an input (via the opto-isolator) to P3 for the purposes of sensing whether the console switch is pressed and the black/blue wire also becomes an output (via the other opto) via P2 for the sending the actual SS kill signal.
I've deliberately tied P3 to the 5 volt rail (via the 4.7K resistor), so this input has a digital state (not analogue). Also I'm guessing about the 1 K current limiting resistor on the input of the opto-coupler. I'm not sure about the capability of BCM pin to source 14 millamps as a parasitic current for the LED in the opto - so you might need to use a different resistor (again, I'm not sure). I'm assuming that the BCM pin is an open-collector circuit. I'm not sure about your 2 Volt reference, but I haven't actually measured the open switch voltage on pin #60. If it's really 2 volts, then you might need to consider an ultra-low voltage switch. The in-line diode simply stops P2 from turning-on the P3 opto (P2's only role is to ground the blue/black wire when the SS kill pulse is sent).
Of course you can arrange your program commands anyway that you want, but I suspect that the first part of the routine will be to look at the state of P3 immediately after ignition switch-on:
if P3 is HIGH, the button isn't pressed and the normal Kill pulse can be initiated.
If P3 is LOW, the kill switch sub-routine is bypassed and a flag is set to indicate that the device is in disabling mode.
Of course if the disabling flag is already set and P3 is LOW, then the pressed button means that you want to re-enable the SS kill function - hope this makes sense!
Probably wise to make sure that the button is pressed for at least a certain amount of time (perhaps 5 seconds) to make sure that the sub-routine doesn't catch an inadvertent button press.
Good luck - you will probably be the first to make one of these!!
Don
wookie_666
07-11-2017, 11:12 AM
Damn Don, youve lost me mate.
But I think i get the gyst of it.
When you say optocoupler, what module are you thinking, my current setup is using a logic level relay from jaycar to do the switching, but obviously 2v from black/blue is not enough for that, I guess i could either use an op-amp, or a different relay. Or did you have something else in mind.
Regarding the 1k resistor, could you please explain why thats needed. Couldn't i just leave it out.
with the coding, ill have the loop check for p3 being high/low, and then ill run different functions when it changes.
^^^ OK - 2 Volts will be a problem with my design.
The "Opto-coupler" is the 4N28 in my circuit (it's a gallium arsenide infrared LED, which is "optically coupled" to a monolithic silicon phototransistor).
You can't remove the 1K resistor because LEDs are current devices, they generate heat which increases current, which increases heat - result is thermal runaway and destruction!! Here's the spec for the electrical characteristics of the LED in the opto-coupler (it's from the 4N28 datasheet):
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2017/11/smPFCaPpng1-1.jpg
If the 1K resistor is removed, the full 2Volts will be applied across the led. The chart says, that the LED will readily take about 500 mA with that level of forward voltage - if indeed the BCM pin could supply this level of amps. More likely, I suspect that something inside the BCM would saturate to limit current flow - but with only 2 Volts, it's entirely unknown if the LED in the opto-coupler would illuminate sufficiently to turn-on the photo transistor.
The real problem is that we just don't know the electrical capabilities of pin #60 (socket C) on the BCM as a source of supply. This pin was designed by VW to be an input source- not to be an output source for an external device. So the trick is to make sure that any parasitic current drain for P3 on the Digispark is not seen by the BCM as being too much load.
My original design was very conservative and I tried to totally isolate my add-on circuit from the inner workings of the BCM.
As I said, with 2 volts, I suspect that some form of ultra-low volt switch is needed. Perhaps you could consider a FET switch since these require very little drive current and they can be designed to switch ON/OFF at low voltages.
Don
wookie_666
14-11-2017, 07:18 AM
Thanks for the reply don.
I have since decided against the press and hold to switch on/off the killswitch. I mean, the reason people put these in is to turn the switch off every time. If you were worried when getting it serviced, its a 5 second thing to unclip the surround, and unplug the killswitch.
psobiech
21-11-2017, 02:07 AM
Hi guys!
I made my own clone with digispark and 3 optocouplers for reading the button state back.
If it works (I will be testing it this week) and there is anybody that would want i can produce the diagrams, but it's a simple permutation of Don's circuit.
I will publish my code now though, in case anyone is interested. It does exactly what Don suggested a couple of posts ago (is able to disable the system if you keep the SS button pressed when switching the ignition on and waiting for about 8-10 seconds). It also should draw less current from the source, but it should not matter it is just is something 'for free'.
PSA: The pinouts in the code are different than what the Don's circuits had, so you would need to take this into account when using the code.
#include <avr/interrupt.h>
#include <avr/power.h>
#include <avr/sleep.h>
#include <avr/eeprom.h>
#include <avr/wdt.h>
const byte ENABLED_BYTE = 0x55;
const byte DISABLED_BYTE = 0xAA;
const byte MAX_PULSES = 3;
const byte SS_SWITCH_OUT = 0; // opto for controlling the SS state
const byte DBG_LED_OUT = 1; // debug led
const byte SS_SWITCH_IN = 2; // opto for reading the SS state
const byte SS_LED_IN = 4; // opto for reading the SS off led state
void setup() {
// I/O modes
pinMode(SS_SWITCH_OUT, OUTPUT);
pinMode(DBG_LED_OUT, OUTPUT);
pinMode(SS_SWITCH_IN, INPUT);
pinMode(3, INPUT); // unused
pinMode(SS_LED_IN, INPUT);
digitalWrite(SS_SWITCH_OUT, LOW);
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, LOW);
digitalWrite(SS_SWITCH_IN, LOW);
digitalWrite(3, HIGH); // unused, enable pullup to reduce floating pins
digitalWrite(SS_LED_IN, LOW);
light(LOW);
// disable unused peripherals
power_timer0_disable();
power_usi_disable();
power_adc_disable();
ADCSRA = 0;
// maximum sleep mode
set_sleep_mode(SLEEP_MODE_PWR_DOWN);
}
void loop() {
// (boot loader takes ~5s)
// read persistend enabled state
byte enabled = (eeprom_read_byte(0x0000) != DISABLED_BYTE); //(!= DISABLED_BYTE, since the EEPROM is initialized as 0xFF and we want this to mean ENABLED also)
// read the button state
byte ssPressed = digitalRead(SS_SWITCH_IN);
if (ssPressed) {
// (blinks with led will delay by an additional ~2560ms)
blink(1);
blink(1);
}
// after waiting reread the button state again - if it is still pressed, then swap the disabled info
if (ssPressed && digitalRead(SS_SWITCH_IN)) {
blink(8);
enabled = !enabled;
// persist
eeprom_write_byte(0x0000, enabled ? ENABLED_BYTE : DISABLED_BYTE);
}
if (enabled) {
blink(2); // blink 2 times to mark enabled
byte counter = 0;
while (counter++ < MAX_PULSES && digitalRead(SS_LED_IN) == HIGH) {
blink(1); // blink once for every retry
digitalWrite(SS_SWITCH_OUT, HIGH);
delay(1024);
digitalWrite(SS_SWITCH_OUT, LOW);
delay(512);
}
}
blink(3); // blink 3 times as a bye bye
// disable everything else, for minimal power consumption
power_all_disable();
power_timer1_disable();
wdt_disable();
noInterrupts();
while(1) {
sleep_enable();
sleep_mode();
// should not happen
sleep_disable();
}
}
volatile byte currentState = LOW;
void blink(int times) {
while(times--) {
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, LOW);
delay(128);
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, HIGH);
delay(128);
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, LOW);
}
delay(1024);
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, currentState);
}
void light(byte state) {
currentState = state;
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, currentState);
}
psobiech
29-11-2017, 05:26 AM
Hi there!
First of all, thank you very much Don for the circuit and other support on the forums!
I have created my own version of the circuit (this is how I like to learn new things, and I just needed to understand it first). I also wanted the disabling functionality when going to the dealer, so I would have less explaining to do and I am quite lazy so I did not want to disconnect the module every time like wookie_666 ;-).
If anyone could verify my circuit, before I stick it into my car that would be great (I am not an EE and this is my first time making a circuit) ;-)
I had changed the pinout, so the Don's circuit translates to this one as follows:
P3 is now P0
P2 is now P4
The P0 pin is now sensing the SS switch state using a third optocoupler.
I also have un-soldered the power led from the digispark and currently the peak current while the circuit is working is below 45mA and it drops to ~8-5mA while in the sleep state (not that it matters really).
Since the code below enables the internal pull-ups on the unused pins, do not solder the unused pins to ground, since they will be high and you could damage your chip.
Here is the code:
#include <avr/power.h>
#include <avr/sleep.h>
#include <avr/eeprom.h>
#include <avr/wdt.h>
const byte MAX_PULSES = 5;
const byte SS_LED_IN = 0; // P3 -> P0
const byte DBG_LED_OUT = 1;
const byte SS_SWITCH_IN = 2;
const byte SS_SWITCH_OUT = 4; // P2 -> P4
const byte UNUSED_0 = 3;
const byte UNUSED_1 = 5;
const byte ENABLED_BYTE = 0x55;
const byte DISABLED_BYTE = 0xAA;
void setup() {
// I/O modes
pinMode(SS_SWITCH_OUT, OUTPUT);
pinMode(DBG_LED_OUT, OUTPUT);
pinMode(SS_SWITCH_IN, INPUT);
pinMode(SS_LED_IN, INPUT);
pinMode(UNUSED_0, INPUT); // unused
pinMode(UNUSED_1, INPUT); // unused
// I/O states
digitalWrite(SS_SWITCH_OUT, LOW);
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, LOW);
digitalWrite(SS_SWITCH_IN, LOW);
digitalWrite(SS_LED_IN, LOW);
digitalWrite(UNUSED_0, HIGH); // unused
digitalWrite(UNUSED_1, HIGH); // unused
light(LOW);
// disable unused peripherals (timer1 is required for delay)
power_timer0_disable();
power_usi_disable();
power_adc_disable();
ADCSRA = 0;
// maximum sleep mode
set_sleep_mode(SLEEP_MODE_PWR_DOWN);
}
void loop() {
// boot loader takes ~5s
// read persistend enabled state
byte enabled = (eeprom_read_byte(0x0000) != DISABLED_BYTE); // treat everything not equal to DISABLED_BYTE as enabled
// read the button state
byte ssPressed = digitalRead(SS_SWITCH_IN);
if (ssPressed) {
// blinks with led will delay by an additional ~1s each
blink(1);
blink(1);
}
// after waiting reread the button state - if it is still pressed, then swap the disabled info
if (ssPressed && digitalRead(SS_SWITCH_IN)) {
blink(2);
enabled = !enabled;
// save to eeprom
eeprom_write_byte(0x0000, enabled ? ENABLED_BYTE : DISABLED_BYTE);
} else if (enabled) {
byte counter = 0;
while (counter++ < MAX_PULSES && digitalRead(SS_LED_IN) == HIGH) {
blink(1); // blink once for every retry
digitalWrite(SS_SWITCH_OUT, HIGH);
delay(1024);
digitalWrite(SS_SWITCH_OUT, LOW);
}
}
blink(3); // blink 3 times as a bye bye
// disable everything else, for minimal power consumption
power_all_disable();
power_timer1_disable();
wdt_disable();
noInterrupts();
sleep_enable();
while(1) {
sleep_mode();
// should not happen
}
}
volatile byte currentState = LOW;
// blinks n-times, and delays by n*192ms + 832ms, eg. 1 blink = 1024ms, 2 blinks = 1216ms
// after blinking leaves the LED in the same state it was in (currentState)
void blink(int times) {
while(times--) {
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, LOW);
delay(96);
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, HIGH);
delay(96);
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, LOW);
}
delay(832);
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, currentState);
}
// changes the state of the LED
void light(byte state) {
currentState = state;
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, currentState);
}
The simplified flow diagram:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2017/11/cTlB6QLpng-1.jpg
(the above picture has an error, it should be SS LED lit? OR <5 pulses sent?)
And the schematics:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2017/11/UUFoVzJpng-1.jpg
And the finished product (need to clean it up and isolate it):
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2017/11/D4pFohu-1.jpg
psobiech
29-11-2017, 05:59 AM
Hi guys,
I am writing this third time, since I failed to see the big notice above about the requirement to post in the newbies corner first :D
I have created my own version of the circuit (since this is the way a learn new things), that has the disabling capability for the module without the need to remove it before visiting the dealership (I do not like to take apart the interior). The idea is to keep the SS switch pressed for about 8 seconds after switching the ignition on.
I changed the pinouts, so:
P2 is now P4
P3 is now P0
and P2 is configured (using a third optocoupler) to sense the SS state for disabling purposes (of the module).
If anyone could verify my circuit before I stuck it into my car and break something ;-) since I am an amateur, not an EE and this is my first circuit.
31630
(there is an error instead of SS LED is lit? AND <5 pulses sent? it should be: SS LED list? OR <5 pulses sent? also not disable module, but disable or enable module)
Schematic:
31631
And the final build that still needs to be cleaned up and isolated:
31632
And the code (take care, since pullups are enabled on the unused pins so do not short them to ground):
#include <avr/power.h>
#include <avr/sleep.h>
#include <avr/eeprom.h>
#include <avr/wdt.h>
const byte MAX_PULSES = 5;
const byte SS_LED_IN = 0; // P3 -> P0
const byte DBG_LED_OUT = 1;
const byte SS_SWITCH_IN = 2;
const byte SS_SWITCH_OUT = 4; // P2 -> P4
const byte UNUSED_0 = 3;
const byte UNUSED_1 = 5;
const byte ENABLED_BYTE = 0x55;
const byte DISABLED_BYTE = 0xAA;
void setup() {
// I/O modes
pinMode(SS_SWITCH_OUT, OUTPUT);
pinMode(DBG_LED_OUT, OUTPUT);
pinMode(SS_SWITCH_IN, INPUT);
pinMode(SS_LED_IN, INPUT);
pinMode(UNUSED_0, INPUT); // unused
pinMode(UNUSED_1, INPUT); // unused
// I/O states
digitalWrite(SS_SWITCH_OUT, LOW);
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, LOW);
digitalWrite(SS_SWITCH_IN, LOW);
digitalWrite(SS_LED_IN, LOW);
digitalWrite(UNUSED_0, HIGH); // unused
digitalWrite(UNUSED_1, HIGH); // unused
light(LOW);
// disable unused peripherals (timer1 is required for delay)
power_timer0_disable();
power_usi_disable();
power_adc_disable();
ADCSRA = 0;
// maximum sleep mode
set_sleep_mode(SLEEP_MODE_PWR_DOWN);
}
void loop() {
// boot loader takes ~5s
// read persistend enabled state
byte enabled = (eeprom_read_byte(0x0000) != DISABLED_BYTE); // treat everything not equal to DISABLED_BYTE as enabled
// read the button state
byte ssPressed = digitalRead(SS_SWITCH_IN);
if (ssPressed) {
// blinks with led will delay by an additional ~1s each
blink(1);
blink(1);
}
// after waiting reread the button state - if it is still pressed, then swap the disabled info
if (ssPressed && digitalRead(SS_SWITCH_IN)) {
blink(2);
enabled = !enabled;
// save to eeprom
eeprom_write_byte(0x0000, enabled ? ENABLED_BYTE : DISABLED_BYTE);
} else if (enabled) {
byte counter = 0;
while (counter++ < MAX_PULSES && digitalRead(SS_LED_IN) == HIGH) {
blink(1); // blink once for every retry
digitalWrite(SS_SWITCH_OUT, HIGH);
delay(1024);
digitalWrite(SS_SWITCH_OUT, LOW);
}
}
blink(3); // blink 3 times as a bye bye
// disable everything else, for minimal power consumption
power_all_disable();
power_timer1_disable();
wdt_disable();
noInterrupts();
sleep_enable();
while(1) {
sleep_mode();
// should not happen
}
}
volatile byte currentState = LOW;
// blinks n-times, and delays by n*192ms + 832ms, eg. 1 blink = 1024ms, 2 blinks = 1216ms
// after blinking leaves the LED in the same state it was in (currentState)
void blink(int times) {
while(times--) {
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, LOW);
delay(96);
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, HIGH);
delay(96);
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, LOW);
}
delay(832);
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, currentState);
}
// changes the state of the LED
void light(byte state) {
currentState = state;
digitalWrite(DBG_LED_OUT, currentState);
}
^^^ hmm.............. looks liked a very good modification to my original design - well done and congratulations!!!!
Still trying to understand your design, but it appears that you have stuck-with a Digispark (rather than the Pro). And I do like the "bye bye" pulses as a feedback to the driver!!
My only concern is the workability of the input pulse to the PB2 ciruit (from the Blue/Black wire). It looks like you have used my original 1K resistor to ballast the current to the LED in the opto-coupler. My original assumption was that the internal circuit in the BCM ( to pin 60, Socket C) was some type of open collector logic signal. But if wookie's later advice is correct, the available voltage to drive the opto-coupler is just 2 Volts on the Blue/Black wire. As I said previously, this wire was designed by VW to be a low current input signal to the BCM, but both our circuits need this wire to drive an LED in an opto-coupler with sufficient current so that the gain in the photo-transistor changes state. Will 2 Volts be sufficient to do this? Again as I said, I suspect that some sort of low voltage, low current ciruit is needed (FET device?), but I'm not sure!!
But a very good job!!!
Don
halfmillion
13-12-2017, 03:19 AM
...anybody willing to send/sell a complete / working item (to Italy) ??
:cool:
...anybody willing to send/sell a complete / working item (to Italy) ??
:cool:
Arrh.......... connazionale (long ago in a previous generation)!!!
first, you will need to make sure how the SS disable button on your car is wired. On the RoW mk7s that are sold down here in the deep south, one side of the SS disable button on the center console is earthed. But I'm not sure how the SS disable button on an Italian market "Skoda Octavia Scout 4x4 184cv dsg with Columbus" is wired.
Don
halfmillion
13-12-2017, 05:49 PM
Arrh.......... connazionale (long ago in a previous generation)!!!
nice to know! Il mondo è piccolo (...world is small!)
first, you will need to make sure how the SS disable button on your car is wired. On the RoW mk7s that are sold down here in the deep south, one side of the SS disable button on the center console is earthed. But I'm not sure how the SS disable button on an Italian market "Skoda Octavia Scout 4x4 184cv dsg with Columbus" is wired.
Don
Octavia RoW has exactly the same pinout used in Golf (minus version, earthed). I used for a while a copy of this circuit born2bastel >> Start-Stop Automatik deaktivieren mit Memoryfunktion (https://www.nicomania.de/auto/start-stop-automatik-deaktivieren), which stopped working at the beginning of our summer :( (poor construction quality maybe)
SloAu
13-12-2017, 06:10 PM
OBDeleven - sorted
halfmillion
14-12-2017, 12:12 AM
OBDeleven - sorted
?? What do you mean?
(I also have OBDeleven, by using it you may however only disable the start/stop function)
Octavia RoW has exactly the same pinout used in Golf (minus version, earthed). I used for a while a copy of this circuit born2bastel >> Start-Stop Automatik deaktivieren mit Memoryfunktion (https://www.nicomania.de/auto/start-stop-automatik-deaktivieren), which stopped working at the beginning of our summer :( (poor construction quality maybe)
halfmillion: What an excellent device -it's exactly what I was thinking of doing, but couldn't !!! Big kudos to the inventor.
Can you still get the parts for this unit? If so, I'm more than happy to build it for you
Don
OBDeleven - sorted
Yes, I suspect that SloAu is referring to either the Voltage method tweak, or the Temperature method tweak for disabling Stop Start. It's an OK method if you only want to disable SS and if you are prepared to tolerate the "tell-signal" on the MDF every time that the car stops
halfmillion
15-12-2017, 03:16 AM
Can you still get the parts for this unit? If so, I'm more than happy to build it for you
Don
If you volunteer...I'm more than happy :-)
I may either send you components via mail, or eventually buy them on the web using a local (australian) ecomm company and have them delivered to you (maybe it is faster). Your choice!
let's do this via emails - I'll PM
Don
frimpiny strimpleweed
13-01-2018, 10:19 PM
That looks fantastic. Nice layout. obviously a pro. Do you want to make one up for me.This Auto Engine Stop is driving me crazy.
How much would you charge to make one for my 2017 transporter ?
I know lots of people who want to buy one of these.
^^^ frimpiny: Hi. There's been a hiccup getting the components - apparently sourcing the PC board at a reasonable price has proven to be problematic for halfmillion. So, no progress !!!
Don
Jerry999
09-03-2018, 12:42 AM
3349433495
Many thanks to DV52 (and others).
My circuit has been installed for approx. 6 months now and makes the car far safer.
DSG with stop/start is incredibly dangerous in my opinion.
Yes, you can always try and remember to press the button...
I also agree that VW should have coded the car to remember the last setting or provided a disable option in the car settings menu.
oh, well it was a lovely little project and works perfectly for me.
Transporter
19-06-2018, 11:18 AM
For those who aren't handy with the soldering iron, I can turn the stop start off now with the software tweak on any model. It takes only 5-10 minutes and it's done over the OBD2 port, no need to remove anything.
Kachingg
19-06-2018, 11:53 AM
I have my car coded for start/stop disabled
Highly recommend it well worth the cost
I have my car coded for start/stop disabled
Highly recommend it well worth the cost
and what is the cost?
Kachingg
22-06-2018, 05:05 PM
If your in Adelaide transporter can do it for $60
I used a kufatech module that plugs into obd port cost me about $72 with delivery
There is a thread on the kufatech module if you want to check it out
GTIWesome
26-06-2018, 12:57 PM
Might there be some unintended consequences of disabling auto start stop (or switching off every single time you get in the car) ? Ie if the engine/ battery etc is expected to operate in this manner multiple times in every trip and doesnt, could something else go askew as a result?
Just thinking aloud...
Kachingg
26-06-2018, 01:33 PM
Might there be some unintended consequences of disabling auto start stop (or switching off every single time you get in the car) ? Ie if the engine/ battery etc is expected to operate in this manner multiple times in every trip and doesnt, could something else go askew as a result?
Just thinking aloud...
You use a slight (.1-.2 ltr/100) amount more fuel
Apart from that less strain on your battery/starter motor is all. I know that they are engineered to withstand the constant use but i hate the jerk you get from a start up and dsg engaging at the same time plus it does add in a slight delay off the line which could be hazardous in the right(wrong for the user) circumstance
Transporter
26-06-2018, 07:15 PM
Might there be some unintended consequences of disabling auto start stop (or switching off every single time you get in the car) ? Ie if the engine/ battery etc is expected to operate in this manner multiple times in every trip and doesnt, could something else go askew as a result?
Just thinking aloud...
Negative? No. Except perhaps 0.1L/100km fuel used and in return you get much longer life out of that AGM battery that cost ~$400+.
Positive? You will save on battery cost which will greatly overcome any negligible extra fuel your engine used, then later you might save on starter motor and ring gear that may need to be replaced. The stop/start system when used is not really save you money if you keep your car outside of the warranty period. If you buy a new car every 3-4years and the stop/start system is not annoying you, then leave it alone.
But, there is absolutely no harm when you push that switch every time before you start driving. :)
wookie_666
02-07-2018, 04:37 PM
Hey Dv52, ive had a request from a few people in the US to see if we can do the same with the ESC button,
Basically pressing it for like 4 seconds after start.
Ive had a look, the button is low when in neutral state, and HIGH when pressed.
the weird thing is, when testing continuity with a multimeter, this also acts as pressing the button,
Its between VCC and PURPLE, or the wire right next to VCC
I Was wondering if you had the wiring diagram or knew where to get it to see if this is possible at all.
Cheers.
Hey Dv52, ive had a request from a few people in the US to see if we can do the same with the ESC button,
Basically pressing it for like 4 seconds after start.
Ive had a look, the button is low when in neutral state, and HIGH when pressed.
the weird thing is, when testing continuity with a multimeter, this also acts as pressing the button,
Its between VCC and PURPLE, or the wire right next to VCC
I Was wondering if you had the wiring diagram or knew where to get it to see if this is possible at all.
Cheers.
wookie: Interesting problem - from the wiring diagram, the ESC/ESP Switch mercifully looks to be the same as the SS switch in that it is a single-throw, single pole switch. But the circuit wiring for ESC/ESP Switch is the electrical reverse of the SS Switch: as you say - it connects +12 Volts to pin #39 on the ABS module (this shouldn't be a problem).
My only concern is whether the ESC switch is the latching type: does the disable/enable function work on the leading/trailing edge of the +12 Volt source like the SS Switch, or does it need the +12 Volt to remain applied?
When the ESC switch is pressed and then released, does the switch return to the normal position, or does it latch in the pressed state (and then return when pressed again)?
Assuming the answer to my question above is NO - here's how to modify my switch to operate as an Auto ESC Kill Switch:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2018/07/r3C0ZcDpng-1.jpg
Don
PS: My guess when you used the multi-meter to test continuity is that the ABS module saw the internal battery in the multi-meter as a surrogate for the +12 Volt supply from SC34 in my picture. As you probably already know, continuity testing involves measuring the electrical current from a known battery voltage internal to the multi-meter
wookie_666
03-07-2018, 11:13 AM
I knew you would be able to help.
One question, where do you find these electrical diagrams. i was looking everywhere online yesterday and couldn't find the exact info.
From what i can gather, it should be non latching,
as pressing and letting go turns off stability control and the switch voltage goes low again
Pressing and holding for a longer period, i.e, 3-5 seconds, this turns off traction control.
So i would pretty much connect the wire between +ve and the button wire, and have the arduino code control the time delay, then the time on, then switch off and sleep.
I really didn't want to connect a wire from +ve to switch wire, incase i blew something up. In your optinion, would connecting the switch to +ve 12v be fine to bypass the switch and test?
wookie: Interesting problem - from the wiring diagram, the ESC/ESP Switch mercifully looks to be the same as the SS switch in that it is a single-throw, single pole switch. But the circuit wiring for ESC/ESP Switch is the electrical reverse of the SS Switch: as you say - it connects +12 Volts to pin #39 on the ABS module (this shouldn't be a problem).
My only concern is whether the ESC switch is the latching type: does the disable/enable function work on the leading/trailing edge of the +12 Volt source like the SS Switch, or does it need the +12 Volt to remain applied?
When the ESC switch is pressed and then released, does the switch return to the normal position, or does it latch in the pressed state (and then return when pressed again)?
Assuming the answer to my question above is NO - here's how to modify my switch to operate as an Auto ESC Kill Switch:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2018/07/r3C0ZcDpng-1.jpg
Don
PS: My guess when you used the multi-meter to test continuity is that the ABS module saw the internal battery in the multi-meter as a surrogate for the +12 Volt supply from SC34 in my picture. As you probably already know, continuity testing involves measuring the electrical current from a known battery voltage internal to the multi-meter
wookie_666
03-07-2018, 07:37 PM
DV52, you may be able to explain this a little better for me. The minus schematic on that italian page posted in the last page, just dont make sense to me. They connect the 3.3v from the regulator through the relay and diode to the SS wire and in my bench testing, that sends approx 2.7v to the SS wire when the wire is not pressed. That SS wire is high at 2v when not pressed. Would this cause issues
Would it not be better to have the OUTPUT from the attiny and the input to the attiny using photocouplers? This way the two systems are not linked in anyway?
Just tryign to understand the circuit before i go ahead and try to replicate it.
wookie_666
03-07-2018, 08:45 PM
I have put together a little circuit using tinkercad circuits.
Here is the link if you wanted to have a look.
Basically. You have a button on the left, and the ATTiny on the right (represented by the UNO)
When the button is not pressed, it is high at 2v
when pressed it closes to ground.
this image shows the voltage at the button when it is being manually pressed. Is the 5MV too high to be classified as LOW or is it LOW enough.
34262
This image is when nothing is pressed, and the ATTiny is not outputting anything.
You can see the voltage at the button is 2v
34263
This is when the ATTiny is outputting HIGH to simulate pressing the button. The voltage at the button is pulled quite LOW but it isn't all the way, again, i assume this is LOW enough.
34264
My question is, if i wanted to incorporate the traction button also, which needs 12v, i wouldn't be able to use this circuit, i would have to modify it to have another transistor or something.
Would the ATTiny work with 2 x photocouplers, one connecting the SS to GND and one connecting the Traction to 12V?
I would then have 2 inputs, reading each button state at startup? This would then save to EEPROM the setting wanted for the module whether to run or not for that button.
Using 4 GPIO pins on the ATTINY is doable i think.
^^^ wookie: we have had the "2 Volt" discussion before (a few pages back) - one of the reasons why my original design uses a miniature electro-mechanical relay is to provide complete electrical isolation with the internal control module circuits. The problem is that we don't know the electrical sourcing and sinking capabilities of pin #39 on the ABS module- you could experiment, but it might be an expensive exercise if you fry an internal component.
Opto couplers can be used for isolation as discussed HERE (http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f197/golf-mk7-auto-start-stop-disable-switch-who-wants-help-108932-post1249160.html#post1249160), but I suspect that modification will be needed because of the different wiring arrangement in the ESP button.
As for your question about sourcing the +12 Volt supply for your device -if you don't want to splice into the SC34 wire on the ESP switch, then take the supply from anywhere - just make sure that it's a T15 supply because my design needs a 12V switch-on pulse to start the SS kill process. But really, if you wire the Vcc supply to the SC34 end of the the relay contacts, there are no additional wires needed!
Don
wookie_666
04-07-2018, 07:15 AM
From a few of the other posts, it seems as though the 2v from the button is sufficient to switch an opto coupler fine.
I guess my question in the latest post is, using the schematic from the italian website, posted a few pages back, with transistors, is that the button never really is true ground, It always has a small voltage potential of 5mv or 67mv. Is that LOW enough for the cars computer to recognise it as being pressed.
I was initially wondering would it be worthwhile using the transistors or would it be a better idea to use the optocouplers and isolate both circuits from each other but now im leaning towards the opto couplers as they are 'safe', my electrical knowledge is limited in this regard.
wookie_666
04-07-2018, 07:18 AM
My other question was actually what is the safest way to test this, as i didn't have the wiring diagram. But after more probing with multimeters i was able to conclude that it was infact a regular switch, pulled to ground when not pressed and pulled high to 12v when pressed. I was then comfortable to probe it with a 12v wire to test the switch action and it worked fine.
Are you able to share your source for the wiring schematics at all? Wondering where i would be able to find them.
wookie: I'm repeating myself from our previous discussion on post #141.
Here's the spec for the electrical characteristics of the LED in the opto-coupler from an earlier design (it's from the 4N28 datasheet):
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2017/11/smPFCaPpng1-1.jpg
The vertical scale in the picture is the voltage across the LED in the opto-coupler. As you can see, 2 Volts is sufficient, but this is not the voltage at the button because you will need to include some form of current-limiting ballast into the LED circuit (LEDs are current devices, they are NOT voltage devices). Likely you will use a series resistor for this purpose -so you will lose some of the 2 Volts from the button across the resistor. The amount of voltage loss across the resistor is dependent on the operating current that you choose for the LED
I'm a bit lost about your question regarding the collector-emitter turn-on voltage if a transistor is used. From my wiring diagram it is clear that the ESP button applies a 12V pulse to pin #39 on the ABS module (@address hex03). When the button is open, I suspect the pin voltage floats (I assume that the pin is connected to an open-collector circuit inside the module - this is a complete guess). So- your application is very different to my original design since the ESP button doesn't earth the ABS pin. But if you want to persist with this application, simply look for a transistor with a low saturation voltage, or try using a Field-Effect-Transistor
As for your repeated questions regarding access to wiring schemes, I'm not aware of any such schemes that will give you the internal circuits for the control modules - which is what you will want to understand the characteristics of pin #39. These circuit wiring diagrams are propriety information that are owned by VW and it's entirely unlikely that any part of these details will be available in the public domain. That's why I took a very conservative design approach in my device - because I had no understanding of the internal module circuits.
Don
wookie_666
04-07-2018, 01:29 PM
Hey Don,
Sorry to sound like a bother. But I think we are talking about two different things.
I was saying that the BJT transistor circuits provided on the italian website doesn't give truly 0v when triggering the button, but actually 5mv-65mv. I would assume this is LOW enough for the cars control unit to think the button has been pressed. Im not asking anything about the 2v when NOT Pressed anymore.
I was also asking where YOU get your circuit diagrams. especially the ones showing the internal workings of the SS button and the internal workings of the Traction control button. I understand they are owned by VW, but you are getting them from somewhere to show them in your circuit diagrams are you not?
You have diagrams showing the SS switch is just pulled to ground and the TCS switch is pulled HIGH to 12V when activated, or did you just make these images yourself.
I thank you for your help. although at this stage, i believe you think i'm being a nuisance, when that is not my intention.
wookie_666
04-07-2018, 01:31 PM
Just to be clear, im specifically wondering where your source is for these wiring diagrams. I understand everything outside the RED box is probably designed by yourself. is everything in the red box designed by yourself also, or is that a screenshot from a VW wiring schematic.34265
wagenwagon
15-10-2018, 03:59 PM
Really keen to do this in my 103tsi wagon. It’s one of the few things I dislike about the car.
I’m having trouble finding parts on eBay.
Ive used keywords: mono, monostable, mono timer etc
Can anyone steer me in the right direction?
Maybe I’m better off going to a Jaycar or somewhere similiar?
Thanks in advance
Maximilium
06-12-2018, 01:21 AM
Quick Question:
Does anybody try this time relay for the kill switch?
40421 (https://www.droking.com/time-delay-relay-relay-switch-dc6v-30v-lcd-multifunction-digital-motor-controller-delay-power-cut-break-trigger-delay-cycle-timing-circuit-relay-module)
Time Delay Relay, DROK 5V 12V 24V Delay Controller Board Delay-off Cycle Timer 0.01s-9999mins Trigger Delay Switching Relay Module with LCD Display Support Micro USB 5V Power Supply - - Amazon.com (https://www.amazon.com/DROK-Controller-Delay-off-0-01s-9999mins-Switching/dp/B07DFT2WDS/ref=sr_ph_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1544023150&sr=sr-1&keywords=Time+Delay+Relay%2C+DROK)
Time Delay Relay, Relay Switch DC6V~30V LCD Multifunction Digital Motor Controller Delay power cut/break/Trigger delay/Cycle timing circuit Relay Module (https://www.droking.com/time-delay-relay-relay-switch-dc6v-30v-lcd-multifunction-digital-motor-controller-delay-power-cut-break-trigger-delay-cycle-timing-circuit-relay-module)
Maximilium
26-12-2018, 10:46 AM
I got it done today on my 2019 VW Tiguan
Disclaimer: Any person, who decides to perform this modification, does so at their own risk.
I shall not be liable for any kind of damage, whether direct or indirect, resulting from use of
the information provided in this post.... Just don't do it!
There are many threads about how to disable the engine auto stop / start feature on new vehicles, this mod
is just one more way to do it, but more vehicle specific. I will leave at the end of this post links to other treads
that I found about this topic.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2018/12/texaZMRFM4Ta0kB5okwhGUF_47UNtURbLAdr87jQ-1.jpg
Parts:
DROK 12 Volt Timer Relay: Amazon Link (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B071XNY72Q/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
DROK 12 Volt Timer Relay: Instruction Manual (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91XqSuV9JHL.pdf)
Adecco Cloth Tape: Amazon Link (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HT11J9I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Electric tape + soldering kit
24 Gauge Wires: Amazon Link (https://www.amazon.com/BNTECHGO-Silicone-Flexible-Strands-Stranded/dp/B01LWYX1SN/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1545776128&sr=8-1-spons&keywords=22AWG+Stranded&psc=1)
To supply power to the Timer Relay I splice the cables going to the Cigarette Lighter ( Same connection I used for my radar detector)
the brown wire is the negative, Green with Red is the positive. Always check voltage with Multiplier.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2018/12/o0iNjZaml4h3DpjT4g1KTwajIIn5lmqQ3rLBlIox-1.jpg
DROK 12 Volt Timer Relay Connection Diagram
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2018/12/fc7U81vth7GYhzsCkvgmt9ziqnksoWLzl2KQCNPZ-1.jpg
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2018/12/a7qJhFjHU7fFog9YZCGiS1qDmP5CDGCyH_ktZQ7G-1.jpg
More information about how to dissemble center console and access this wires on other vehicles can be found HERE (https://www.nicomania.de/auto/start-stop-automatik-deaktivieren).
There are many different way to connect this wires, I like to strip about 2 mm of the insulation on the wire with a knife,
solder the wires and cover with electrical tape. Then I wrap all the wiring with Cloth Tape.
I secured the Timer Relay module with Velcro.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2018/12/5QissEcPmJmuuuC7b1Wx1eIo8YwqrMf9jm8XYAOK-1.jpg
Programming the Time Delay Module:
Product Function: P-2
T-1 ( Timer 1 = time module will wait to turn the relay on) at 30 sec.
T-2 ( Timer 2 = time relay will remain active) at 0.1 sec.
Mode C: Timer starts when module is power on, after 30 sec. relay activates for 0.1 sec.
Other Links:
SSAM Module Installation Instructions (https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?8987177-start-stop-ACTIVATION-question&p=112452403&viewfull=1#post112452403)
SSAM Module Page link (https://www.nicomania.de/auto/start-stop-automatik-deaktivieren)
Automatic Start Stop kill switch - The answer!! (Link 1 (https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?7424138-Automatic-Start-Stop-kill-switch-The-answer!!&highlight=kill+switch))
Disable Start/Stop on Golf mkVII - VCDS tweak (http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f197/disable-stop-start-vcds-tweak-94276.html)
Wizardtm
17-01-2019, 09:09 PM
I've been reading this thread very carefully and made the assumption that this should work for a Passat MY2015 also.
So I started ordering parts and build the Auto S/S Kill switch: Closed Loop Design.
<a href="https://ibb.co/vHCKmL6"><img src="https://i.ibb.co/80nS2PL/workbench.jpg" alt="workbench" border="0"></a>
I was very happy with the result and started testing it on my bench. Everything worked okay, so next step was to put in the car. There thing went bad..... the closed loop wasn't working. So I measured the voltage on the black/grey wire. It was only 1,1Volts.
I think I've read in this thread that a Golf Mk7 has a voltage of 2Volts. This mean I need to redesign the circuit to make it work :-)
wildstar87
18-01-2019, 04:40 PM
I've been following this thread for a while. This timer circuit seemed perfect, but it switches the power line, not ground. However the guy who sells the timers, also makes a version that switches ground (sink). I used this version, and it couldn't have gone better.
I used these connectors to make a plug-in harness:
2/4/10sets/lot 10 Pin/Way Male Feamle Lift Switch Seat Adjustment Plug Connector For Volkswagen AUDI 6R0 972 930 1K0 971 992-in Cables, Adapters & Sockets from Automobiles & Motorcycles on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2-4-10sets-lot-10-Pin-Way-Male-Feamle-Lift-Switch-Seat-Adjustment-Plug-Connector-For/32945917871.html?spm=a2g0s.8937460.0.0.816c2e0eI5A 3b7)
It's a simple design, all the wires are duplicated as a passthrough, but I also linked in the timer to the power, ground, and switch signal lines.
I even was able to program it outside the car with a test power supply I have. I plugged it in, and it worked like a champ first time out. It only works on initial startup, but that's exactly what I wanted, so I can still enable it on the fly if I want to. That was all I needed, no other component. It's so nice having this ability now!
As an alternative to the Auto S/S kill switch that is described on post #1 of this thread, the following design uses a different "programmable" module that is readily available from the net. The "Multi-Functional Delay Timer" (MFDT) can be programmed to undertake 17 x different timing functions, but as used in this design, the inbuilt function #7 performs the exact timing characteristics that are described in post #1 of this thread.
The MFTD can be purchased from EBay and Amazon (see link below), or it can be obtained directly from the distributor via the last link below:
EBAY (http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/705-53470-19255-0/1?campid=5337592361&toolid=10001&mpre=http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.TRS0&_nkw=Timer%2F+Ignition+Pop+Stopper+Amplifier+Delay +Signal+Feed+Suppression&_sacat=0)
Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PD65UGA?redirect=true&ref_=cm_cr_ryp_prd_ttl_sol_0)
MFDT_Direct (http://www.3rdbrakeflasher.com/timer-c-68/?zenid=771421256af55b7712fa59062f99568d)
Multi-functional Delay Timer
The MFDT has 6 x wires as shown in the diagram below:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/CUEGAtnpng-1.jpg
As indicated, the device has the same four wires as per the original Mono (i.e. Vcc, Earth, Vout and Trigger) plus it has two additional wires that are used for programming the T1 and T2 timing periods.
The circuit diagram for the MFTD unit is shown in the diagram below:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/G4PGkTvpng-1.jpg
As indicated, the connections are the same as those for the Mono except that the Trigger wire is not used and the two programming wires are not connected (these wires will be used later). Also, the "freewheeling" diode across the relay coil is not required because a diode has already been included for this purpose inside the MFDT.
Construction
Solder the relay (all legs) and the diode onto a small piece of "Vero" board so that the components are mounted on the track side (the relay should be oriented so that "notch" in on the LHS of the board as shown in the Back-view picture below). Before mounting the relay, remember to remove a section of the track where the relay package is to be placed so that the pins on opposite sides of the relay don't short each-other.
Place a piece of double sided tape to one of the faces on the MFDT and secure the vero board to the other side of the tape
Solder the Red, Black and Yellow wires on the MFDT to the components on the vero board as per the circuit diagram
Solder three wires to the vero board for the connections to be made to the centre console switch as per the circuit diagram.
The three wires coloured White, Green and Blue should not be connected
The pictures below indicate the finished Auto S/S kill switch: Alternate design
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/5uWge76png-1.jpg
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/1JEpxjlpng-1.jpg
Programming Circuit
Using a test bench power supply, or a 12 Volt batttery construct the ciruit diagram below to program the Auto S/S kill switch
Connect a button style switch to each of the white and green wires as shown and connect a LED and series resistor to "see" the pulse signal.
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/lmZw8Q0png-1.jpg
Programming Procedure:
With the power switch off, hold down the two buttons, then turn-on the power switch and release the buttons. The LED will illuminate for 3 seconds to indicate that the device has entered the programming mode. Keep the power switch turned-on for steps 2, 3 and 4 of these procedures
Set T1 period: Hold down the button that is connected to the white wire for about 5 seconds. Release the white wire button and the LED will extinguish
Set T2 period: Hold down the button that is connected to the green wire for about 2 seconds. Release the green wire button and the LED will extinguish.
Set Mode: The last step is to set the MFDT to Delayed Interval (single cycle) mode - this provides the timing sequence shown in post #1 of this thread. The code for this mode is 7. To set the mode, momentarily press and release the two buttons together - the LED will flash to indicate that you have entered mode selection. Press the white wire button seven times to set mode 7
Turn-off the power switch - the MFDT is now programmed!
To test the correct timing periods, turn-on the power switch and observe the LED operation.
If T1, and/or T2 need to be re-adjusted, repeat the steps outlined above. (note: there is no need to complete step 4 again - once the mode is set initially, it will remain at the set number).
That's it - Remove the device from the programming circuit, remove the two buttons and secure the unused wires neatly so that they don't short against any other components. Then slip the completed Auto S/S kill switch into a piece of heat shrink tubing and install in the car.
Installation:
Mattaus will describe the installation of the "test device" in his mk7 which has additional buttons in the centre console, but in my MY13 model, there is only one button on either side of the gear selector lever. This means that the T15 power supply wire (Black/Yellow) is not in the wiring loom for the 10 PIN connector to the switch module.
For those in this situation, the additional T15 wire needs to be provided and I found that the most convenient method of doing this was to install a "piggy-back" fuse on fuse position #40 in the "C" fuse box (which is located behind the glove box for those cars that have the steering wheel in the correct side).
Given that I needed to work in the "C" fuse-box area anyway, and because access to the centre console is such a PITA, and because I'm still not certain that the time periods for T1 and T2 are correct (it's therefore likely that I will need to take-out and re-install the device), I decided to mount the Auto S/S Kill switch in the "C" fuse box as well (instead of the cavity in the centre console). To do this, I spliced the two wires to PIN #1 and PIN #4 on the 10 PIN connector and extended these into the "C" fuse box area.
A picture of the complete installation is shown below (note: to minimise the possibility of the device rattling, I wrapped the the completed unit in "bubble-wrap"):
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2015/10/xVDomnvpng-1.jpg
So far the device is working perfectly albeit, I 'm tempted to reduce T1 to about 3 seconds. I'll wait for feedback from Mattaus and AJW before making this change
Cheers
Don
genebaby
11-07-2020, 03:14 PM
I've taken a chance on this: Automatic start / stop of start / stop treasure default closermemory mode for VW Golf Sportsvan GTI RLINE|Car Switches & Relays| - AliExpress (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000988119998.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.5d694c4d6 GWWZK)
If it works, great, if not, I'll have to sort out doing it the hard way.
genebaby
22-08-2020, 09:41 AM
The switch finally arrived from AliExpress and I just installed it.
It has modes which I didn't look into but it seems that from just installing it it's remembering the last setting. At first I was thinking it would turn off the S/S and there was no change. I turned it off and restarted the car and it remained off.
So it looks good. I'll go out for a drive later and test it out on the road and I'll probably end up getting one for the Polo next.
genebaby
22-08-2020, 02:38 PM
I can confirm that once you turn off your S/S it will remain off with this cable installed, thus being able to turn it on should you want to.
Other than that it's set and forget. So this is a working and simple method for 2019/20 vehicles.
Laurierayr
06-10-2020, 11:57 AM
RE your comment " ... Preliminary design - Timing considerations
So, according to the wiring diagram above, all that needs to happen to automatically disable S/S every time that the ignition switch is turned-on is to design a circuit that automatically triggers when "terminal 15" is energised so that it momentarily shorts-to-earth PIN#4 on the centre console switch. Doesn't sound difficult- I hear you thinking (and you are correct in your thinking). "
I note using OBDeleven Pro under the Gateway Control Unit Module 19 in long coding under Byte 04 there is an option - 'Shut off recommendation ignition/terminal 15' and the box is 'ticked' ..... IF this is unticked will that disable the power to terminal 15 and thereby disable the stop/start function.
Thanks Laurie
I note using OBDeleven Pro under the Gateway Control Unit Module 19 in long coding under Byte 04 there is an option - 'Shut off recommendation ignition/terminal 15' and the box is 'ticked' ..... IF this is unticked will that disable the power to terminal 15 and thereby disable the stop/start function.
Thanks Laurie
Laurie: Hi. The choice is entirely yours as to which way to proceed; each option has its advantages and down-sides - which of course every individual will value differently. So there ain't no universally correct approach.
If you want to go the "coding" route - here's a list of the tweaks that I have recorded in my databse (taken from various sites on the web and from my posts on this forum - see here (https://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f197/disable-stop-start-vcds-tweak-94276-post1032492.html#post1032492)
START/STOP System deactivation
Gateway long-code method
Module: 19 (CAN getaway)
Coding → Long Coding → Byte: 03 → Bit: 2
New value: disabled
Module: 19 (CAN getaway)
Coding → Long Coding → Byte: 03 → Bit: 3
New value: enabled
Module: 19 (CAN getaway)
Coding → Long Coding → Byte: 04 → Bit: 0
New value: disabled
Module: 19 (CAN getaway)
Coding → Long Coding → Byte: 15 → Bit: 0
New value: disabled
Gateway adaption channel method
Module: 19 (CAN getaway)
Adaptation → Channel: Deactivation of start-stop function
New value: Stop prohibition: no start request
Gateway temperature method
Module: 19 (CAN getaway)
Adaptation → Channel: Start/Stopp AußentemperaturVorgabe-MaximaleTemperatur
New value: 50
Module: 19 (CAN getaway)
Adaptation → Channel: Start/Stopp AußentemperaturVorgabe-MinimaleTemperatur
New value: 50
Gateway voltage method
Module: 19 (CAN getaway)
Adaptation → Channel: Start_stop_voltage_limit
New value: 12
It doesn't matter whether you use VCDS, VCP, or OBD11 and I'm not recommending any particular method over any other option. And, I've not tried any of the options on newer MQB platform vehicles albeit I am aware that disabling SS via tweaks is problematic on these cars.
Don
LimestoneR7
14-01-2021, 08:00 PM
I have a ODB11 unit and disable Start / Stop on my Mk7R, plus a few other tweaks a couple of years ago.
My friend recently bought a 2015 Mk7 90TSI (same year and colour as mine). I added his vehicle on my phone's OBD11 app etc and I tried 3 time to disable Start / Stop and the attempts failed and I saw an error message on the display panel of his car.
I was using the shortcut/one press method.
Can anyone suggest what might be the issue?
Maybe I should do it manually, next time I see him
eg: (Voltage Method)
Disable engine Start / Stop functionality.
Select Control unit 19
Adaptation
Start Stop Limit voltage
Value=12
Guest001
14-01-2021, 10:05 PM
I have a ODB11 unit and disable Start / Stop on my Mk7R, plus a few other tweaks a couple of years ago.
My friend recently bought a 2015 Mk7 90TSI (same year and colour as mine). I added his vehicle on my phone's OBD11 app etc and I tried 3 time to disable Start / Stop and the attempts failed and I saw an error message on the display panel of his car.
I was using the shortcut/one press method.
Can anyone suggest what might be the issue?
Maybe I should do it manually, next time I see him
eg: (Voltage Method)
Disable engine Start / Stop functionality.
Select Control unit 19
Adaptation
Start Stop Limit voltage
Value=12
Should work Does on almost everything up to the 2020 models on which altering S/S has been nobbled by VW
Downunder55
26-02-2021, 11:07 AM
I can confirm that once you turn off your S/S it will remain off with this cable installed, thus being able to turn it on should you want to.
Other than that it's set and forget. So this is a working and simple method for 2019/20 vehicles.
I think I found the product you got, does yours have the operating 3 modes ?
Like the idea of "Service Mode" when I take it in for a service ?
genebaby
26-02-2021, 12:51 PM
Hi, yes it does have the modes but I'm fine with the set and forget option, which it defaulted to, so it's great. I don't think about stop/start.
Will have to find a video and do the Polo. Only move it around the yard and forget to press the button.
Downunder55
26-02-2021, 01:43 PM
Hi, yes it does have the modes but I'm fine with the set and forget option, which it defaulted to, so it's great. I don't think about stop/start.
Will have to find a video and do the Polo. Only move it around the yard and forget to press the button.
@genebaby thanks, that's great, the seller also does them for the T-ROC ....want the Service Mode as the T-ROC is new, well actually still on the boat, so want as stealth as possible so not to PO VW service just yet :-)
genebaby
26-02-2021, 03:20 PM
All good, enjoy your new car when you get it.
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