R36 BBK options

[alien]

Hello all,

I am looking to upgrade the front to a big brake kit setup. Would like to know what are some of the options out there.

Thanks,

[Elmura]

I'd seriously advise against upsizing the R36 brakes. They're already huge. If you want better fade resistance, look up the RDA 7382D front rotors. They're same sized but have dimples and slots for efficient cleaning of pads. You can also look at the DBA 4808XS which is cross drilled and slotted as well as painted gold - but it's twice the price.

[brad]

I'd seriously advise against upsizing the R36 brakes. They're already huge. If you want better fade resistance, look up the RDA 7382D front rotors. They're same sized but have dimples and slots for efficient cleaning of pads. You can also look at the DBA 4808XS which is cross drilled and slotted as well as painted gold - but it's twice the price.

They might be huge (340mm???) but theyt are still only single pot sliders & they are as heavy as all get out. A multi-piston BBK sticking with a similar diameter rotor will provide more consistant clamp force & save several kg per side.

To the OP: Have a look in the Golf & Octavia areas. Plenty of folks have fitted BBKs and the mount points are common between the Passat & the Golf/Octy. The main difference is that the Passat has an alloy hub carrier & the Golf/Octy has a steel carrier so the Passat has more metal at the brake mount position - this may require some thought before committing to purchase.

Depending on what your engineering skills & how dedicated to DIY you are solutions range from adapting Porsche monoblocks to a bolt-on kit from PB Brakes, VWRacing, HPA, etc.

Step 1 would be to ask for a template so you can check caliper clearance, etc

[Elmura]

Brad - A multi-piston BBK sticking with a similar diameter rotor will provide more consistant clamp force & save several kg per side. Brad - are you stating that the multi-piston monobloc calipers are several kgs lighter than stock? Or are you referring to 2-piece rotors as well?

[brad]

Brad - are you stating that the multi-piston monobloc calipers are several kgs lighter than stock? Or are you referring to 2-piece rotors as well?
The calipers are lighter. They are made from aluminium instead of cast iron.

here are some assembly weights that I'd noted elsewhere. The R36 has the 345mm rotors i believe.


Brakes (caliper + rotor + pads + bolts + adapter)
OEM:
stock 312mm - 14.5kg
TTS 340mm - 20kg
S3/R32 345mm - 21.5kg
TTRS 370mm - 17kg
RS4/RS6 365mm - 17kg
RS6 V10 390mm - 21.5kg

Non OEM:
VW-R 352x32mm - 12kg
K-Sport 356x32mm - 12.25kg
Brembo 355x32mm - 13kg

Caliper + bracket weights:
312mm GTI - 5.5kg.
Golf R / S3 - 8.4kg
A Forge motorsport 6 piston - 4.5kg
A Stoptech 4 piston - 5.2kg

I have no idea what an R36 caliper weighs.

There's also a lot of weight to be saved going to a 2 piece rotor.

When selecting a BBK you need to consider the piston area. R36 is a 54mm diameter (?). Area is 2290 mm sq.

[Timlin]

Hi

I fitted the VWR BBK to my R36 along with their new 2-piece rear rotors. As this kit is VW OEM it bolts straight on, and it'll work with the OEM 18" R36 10-spoke wheels too - having said that I did fit HRE R40 wheels for even less un-sprung weight...

Lemme just say that the stopping power now is simply amazing! The very noticeable less weight is also a bonus.

I decided to go all out and do the rear rotors as well, but with the OEM caliper. So I now have 2-piece calipers on every corner and 6-pot calipers on the front and the OEM calipers on the rear!

Despite what other advice you'll get on this topic, I'll bet none of them have actually experienced the VWR BBK in person...

I got mine through European AutoTech In Monavale, Sydney. Not a cheap exercise, but worth every penny IMO.

Rgd's


Andrew


Hello all,

I am looking to upgrade the front to a big brake kit setup. Would like to know what are some of the options out there.

Thanks,

[Elmura]

Andrew



Thanks Andrew for your input. Is your car a daily driver? I can't fathom a braking benefit in daily driving. Even with aggressive short stints, I've never experienced brake fade.

I do want the reduced weight for ride comfort, handling, acceleration & fuel economy.

Also, what sort of $$$ ?

[Timlin]

Hi mate

Yes my car is a daily driver as would most of the members on this forum be. To be honest, I'm not a racing driver and I didn't install the BBK because of brake fade - I think I'd lose my license before that happened! Its more about just having better brakes, and they look very cool too! None of us here upgrade/mod our cars because the OEM bits are failing or don't work well, we mostly upgrade parts because they either look good, or work better! Trying to apply any logic to modifying cars is just, well, you know...!

The end result for me after all the mods I've done is a car that handles way better, stops way better and introduces more driving confidence too I guess - and it sure does look better too!

No-one really needs coilovers, BBK's, low profile tires or lightweight wheels - but they sure make a difference in how the car feels and drives.

As for the costs, well, when I did the BBK the AU$ was quite high, on parity at least, so all up, fitted including the rear 2-piece rotors it was about AU$5.5k.

The parts can be got online for much cheaper than that, and if you're handy with the tools you could probably do it all yourself, but I'm not and I couldn't be bothered anyway even if I could. Try Derek at European AutoTech in Mona Vale Sydney.

Good luck!!

Rgd's


Andrew

[Jakeys]

For looks you can also just do the brake retainer springs from newer R models, under $150. Fronts only though.

I looked at this but as is said earlier in the thread, whether or not they are single piston, they are extremely good brakes for a daily, even in the hills I encounter minimal fade and the overall dimensions of everything is more than adequate. They also feel amazing through the pedal, very sensitive to the point where I let a girl I was seeing drive and she was expecting the same brake response as her Barina, almost put us through the windshield! Have had a workshop comment on this too.

It's a lot of money for a cosmetic/track benefit only.

[Timlin]

The feel and stopping power of the BBK is just sensational, as is the weight reduction in each corner, the car just drives way better. Its considerably more than a cosmetic difference as in the "R" retainer springs for instance - that actually do nothing at all except make you look a little, well... you know...

But, if you can't afford it, then, don't do it - easy!


Rgd's


Andrew


For looks you can also just do the brake retainer springs from newer R models, under $150. Fronts only though.

I looked at this but as is said earlier in the thread, whether or not they are single piston, they are extremely good brakes for a daily, even in the hills I encounter minimal fade and the overall dimensions of everything is more than adequate. They also feel amazing through the pedal, very sensitive to the point where I let a girl I was seeing drive and she was expecting the same brake response as her Barina, almost put us through the windshield! Have had a workshop comment on this too.

It's a lot of money for a cosmetic/track benefit only.

[Jakeys]

Fair enough, I haven't experienced them, it just seems to me a bad allocation of resources for a road car. Track, sure, road... eh.

And the retainer springs are hardly wankery, they're standard on all R's and most Audi S/RS's now. The R36 front brakes do have some just metal instead of black with log.

[brad]

Fair enough, I haven't experienced them, it just seems to me a bad allocation of resources for a road car. Track, sure, road... eh.

And the retainer springs are hardly wankery, they're standard on all R's and most Audi S/RS's now. The R36 front brakes do have some just metal instead of black with log.
For the money - what difference do they make in the driving? I can't understand the attraction of a spring with a piece of metal attached that only has aesthetic value. VW must have been laughing their heads off with the profit margin on those things.

If you applied your logic of "this is adequate, therefore why would you want better" then you wouldn't buy an R36 in the first place. You'd just buy a standard Passat.

Nobody in my family understands why I get new wheels every time I change tyres or why I've changed or upgraded a dozen other items on my car. My reply is "I do it because I can and am willing to try new things & you can't & won't take a risk".

[Timlin]

For the money - what difference do they make in the driving? I can't understand the attraction of a spring with a piece of metal attached that only has aesthetic value. VW must have been laughing their heads off with the profit margin on those things.

If you applied your logic of "this is adequate, therefore why would you want better" then you wouldn't buy an R36 in the first place. You'd just buy a standard Passat.

Nobody in my family understands why I get new wheels every time I change tyres or why I've changed or upgraded a dozen other items on my car. My reply is "I do it because I can and am willing to try new things & you can't & won't take a risk".


Touche!!!

Exactly what I'm trying to say. There is no logical reason for any of the mods we do on our cars - in fact the R36 itself is completely irrational as a means of transport only.

If the sole motive of buying a car to transport oneself to and from point A to point B, then a Smart car will fulfill that just as well...

Objective criticism on pure aesthetic points are fine, but to suggest one is wasting "their" money/resources on say, a BBK or nice new wheels, coilovers etc is just one opinion against another. If you don't like what someone else has done/is doing to their car and you can't rationalize those same costs on your own car, then don't do them and move on to another thread - easy!!

Also, for what its worth, intelligent, worthwhile and constructive criticism comes when one has direct experience with what one is criticizing, if there's no direct experience or interaction with whatever you're criticizing, then its only an opinion, and opinions are like a**eholes, we've all got'em!!

Enjoy the "R" brake retainers, I had them myself before I got the BBK, and they look just fine IMHO, but from an aesthetic point of view, putting one against the other, I'd suggest the the BBK's "looks" better and more purposeful than the "R" brake retainers... but, that's just MY opinion!

Rgd's


Andrew

[Jakeys]

EDIT: Actually, retracted. I'm sure you'll be very happy with the BBK, I can afford it but don't see the point personally but we're all entitled to our opinions. This is not worth an argument.

[Elmura]

There's a bit of ego in some of these responses. Jakey & I never criticised anybody. To bring affordability into it & criticising for choosing to improve the calliper appearance is hypocritical.
I do many mods, and do it myself for the love of it. Obviously it's not financially rewarding, but value for money comes into it. I won't spend $6k on an imported exhaust but I will do mods to it for max reward. I still have to consider that one day I'll move it on

[Timlin]

Um, well, I disagree with you. There's no ego in any of my responses, just stating the facts from a point of view of someone who actually has the VWR-BBK and has also had the OEM brakes and who can compare one package with the other - however, criticizing something that you've never owned/tried/used is just, well, pointless as you have no facts, just unfounded and baseless opinions - and that's fine as long as you're not stating these opinions as "facts".

Regarding affordability - how is this either offensive or egotistical? One may simply "choose" not to afford them... I make no statement on anyone's socioeconomic status here! There is no argument in this thread from what I see/read, just some facts and then some unfounded opinions - that's it.

Rgd's


AT





There's a bit of ego in some of these responses. Jakey & I never criticised anybody. To bring affordability into it & criticising for choosing to improve the calliper appearance is hypocritical.
I do many mods, and do it myself for the love of it. Obviously it's not financially rewarding, but value for money comes into it. I won't spend $6k on an imported exhaust but I will do mods to it for max reward. I still have to consider that one day I'll move it on

[brad]

Regarding affordability - how is this either offensive or egotistical? One may simply "choose" not to afford them... I make no statement on anyone's socioeconomic status here! There is no argument in this thread from what I see/read, just some facts and then some unfounded opinions - that's it.

I believe he was referring to my statement that the aesthetic caliper covers were expensive & did nothing for braking performance.

[Jakeys]

Um, well, I disagree with you. There's no ego in any of my responses, just stating the facts from a point of view of someone who actually has the VWR-BBK and has also had the OEM brakes and who can compare one package with the other - however, criticizing something that you've never owned/tried/used is just, well, pointless as you have no facts, just unfounded and baseless opinions - and that's fine as long as you're not stating these opinions as "facts".

Regarding affordability - how is this either offensive or egotistical? One may simply "choose" not to afford them... I make no statement on anyone's socioeconomic status here! There is no argument in this thread from what I see/read, just some facts and then some unfounded opinions - that's it.

Rgd's


AT

There is a distinct difference between an opinion and a fact. If I say I don't think they're worth the cost, that's an opinion, that I am entitled to. It is fully founded. If I say "BBK's do not perform better than stock" that's a fact and that can be unfounded and inaccurate, and you'd be right to take up arms over it. But I never said that, I simply just said I think that they are too expensive for a daily and the benefit isn't worth it. You clearly think otherwise, that's fine, I have no issue with that, I never criticised you, but it's a public forum, my comment is fully valid.

I'm not suggesting you should sell your BBK, you're clearly very happy with them. But this is a forum and I stand by what I said, which was just a perfectly valid opinion, equally as valid as your suggestion that the OEM retainers are not worth the money. Nobody has said anything unfounded here.

Also, regarding "never owned/tried/used" as being a requirement for being able to comment is ridiculous. I don't need to try the BBK to know I don't want them. This came up when I debunked the Sprintbooster as not doing anything for performance, people were saying "You don't know until you've tried it" even though the theory behind it was well understood, then I did try it, debunked it in VCDS as a total placebo, my opinion beforehand was no less valid.

[Timlin]

Whatever...

[XXX-1.8T]

There is a distinct difference between an opinion and a fact. If I say I don't think they're worth the cost, that's an opinion, that I am entitled to. It is fully founded. If I say "BBK's do not perform better than stock" that's a fact and that can be unfounded and inaccurate, and you'd be right to take up arms over it. But I never said that, I simply just said I think that they are too expensive for a daily and the benefit isn't worth it. You clearly think otherwise, that's fine, I have no issue with that, I never criticised you, but it's a public forum, my comment is fully valid.

I'm not suggesting you should sell your BBK, you're clearly very happy with them. But this is a forum and I stand by what I said, which was just a perfectly valid opinion, equally as valid as your suggestion that the OEM retainers are not worth the money. Nobody has said anything unfounded here.

Also, regarding "never owned/tried/used" as being a requirement for being able to comment is ridiculous. I don't need to try the BBK to know I don't want them. This came up when I debunked the Sprintbooster as not doing anything for performance, people were saying "You don't know until you've tried it" even though the theory behind it was well understood, then I did try it, debunked it in VCDS as a total placebo, my opinion beforehand was no less valid.

So with VCDS what did you debunk exactly.

i find this interesting :)

Is there a way of adjusting the reaction time of the throttle with VCDS?

[Jakeys]

So with VCDS what did you debunk exactly.

i find this interesting :)

Is there a way of adjusting the reaction time of the throttle with VCDS?

That discussion will overtake this thread and spawn 5 pages. I will give you my findings, if you want to discuss further chuck me a PM and I'll have a chat with you, but I sold my Sprint Booster because I thought it was **** after testing it for a month and doing the VCDS analysis so I can't do further tests, I did keep the accelerator input graph though.

The throttle response time cannot be adjusted by either VCDS or Sprint Booster. Throttle sensor is instantaneous, it reads your input and measures it as a percentage, then obviously this is sent to the ECU and eventually to the engine. The delay is between the throttle position sensor and the actual engine and the systems involved there, it is inherent to the car. The sprint booster just attaches to the sensor, which has no measurable delay itself. The delay is elsewhere, therefore Sprint Booster cannot improve/remove it. What you can do is graph what that sensor measures in the various modes to determine exactly what the SB does and the answer is you see the race mode on the SB ramping up, up to about 80% throttle when stock is say 50% throttle, then for some reason it just flatlines at 80 until stock reaches 80% as well and then they both increase linearly. In other words, the last quarter of throttle travel, Sprint Booster does nothing. All it does is increase the percentage throttle reported to the car in the first three quarters pedal travel. You can do this without Sprint Booster using your foot.

It's fun to only need to use 50% throttle to effect 80% throttle, it makes you feel cool, but it is measurable identical to just pushing your foot a bit further. There are absolutely no other benefits to the system, including input lag. It cannot change the path of travel between the pedal and the engine, the car is the delay. The delay is not artificial/put in by VW for any reason and a little inline plug cannot change that.

[WazR36]

That discussion will overtake this thread and spawn 5 pages. I will give you my findings, if you want to discuss further chuck me a PM and I'll have a chat with you, but I sold my Sprint Booster because I thought it was **** after testing it for a month and doing the VCDS analysis so I can't do further tests, I did keep the accelerator input graph though.

The throttle response time cannot be adjusted by either VCDS or Sprint Booster. Throttle sensor is instantaneous, it reads your input and measures it as a percentage, then obviously this is sent to the ECU and eventually to the engine. The delay is between the throttle position sensor and the actual engine and the systems involved there, it is inherent to the car. The sprint booster just attaches to the sensor, which has no measurable delay itself. The delay is elsewhere, therefore Sprint Booster cannot improve/remove it. What you can do is graph what that sensor measures in the various modes to determine exactly what the SB does and the answer is you see the race mode on the SB ramping up, up to about 80% throttle when stock is say 50% throttle, then for some reason it just flatlines at 80 until stock reaches 80% as well and then they both increase linearly. In other words, the last quarter of throttle travel, Sprint Booster does nothing. All it does is increase the percentage throttle reported to the car in the first three quarters pedal travel. You can do this without Sprint Booster using your foot.

It's fun to only need to use 50% throttle to effect 80% throttle, it makes you feel cool, but it is measurable identical to just pushing your foot a bit further. There are absolutely no other benefits to the system, including input lag. It cannot change the path of travel between the pedal and the engine, the car is the delay. The delay is not artificial/put in by VW for any reason and a little inline plug cannot change that.

FYI - no one ever claimed that sprint booster boosted performance, only that it improves driveability
i still stand by that opinion

[Jakeys]

FYI - no one ever claimed that sprint booster boosted performance, only that it improves driveability
i still stand by that opinion

That's wrong. Plenty of people claim it boosts performance, things like "removing input lag" is a common one, or that it actually makes the car perform better with other bizarre rationale. Removing input lag is objectively false. Making the car faster is objectively false. But your claim that it makes it more fun to drive by making the pedal travel reduced I have no issue with, that's just a personal feel/subjective thing.

I just didn't like it because I prefer finer pedal control. SB = less effective travel because it makes part of the pedal at the top end a dead zone for a bit in order to bunch all your travel into a shorter area, only about 10-20ish percent though so not huge, just personal feeling. We are back to the case I was making before about the BBK which is just opinion vs opinion, everyone can be right. Facts are different.

[Elmura]

Definitely gone on a tangent here. From BBK to Sprint Booster.

Since it's related to one of my threads, the SB gives the impression of more responsiveness and more power because a small amount of pedal travel gives a substantially greater net torque response. Of course, we can just use more throttle but that seems to go against our nature (fuel consumption or other subconscious reasons).

It's a psychological thing. It fools the driver that they have a highly responsive car since moving the pedal 3mm equals big acceleration.

Me - I'm teaching myself and my ECU to use progressive throttle inputs with much larger openings in higher gears (manually controlled) and getting better fuel consumption doing it....